Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,194,668 members, 7,955,423 topics. Date: Sunday, 22 September 2024 at 05:04 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Religion And Authority (3093 Views)
The Difference Between RELIGION And CHRISTIANITY. / I Now Believe Religion and our mentality Is Hindering Nigeria Progress. / The Name Of Jesus Christ Carries Power, Authority And Distinction (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: Religion And Authority by MrAnony1(m): 7:19pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:You asked whether someone can tell me I don't have a headache, you didn't ask me to name the higher authority thehomer: I don't think you can have the illusion of pain. You're probably confusing the referral of the pain with the sensation and feeling of being in pain itself.Please, I'll like to see how you describe pain absent the feeling of pain. thehomer: Once again, you're failing to see that using the word "authority" when speaking about the senses is not quite appropriate.I think it is quite appropriate, so far you have failed to convince me otherwise thehomer: No, based on our senses, the earth is round. Deciding on whether or not the earth is flat or round depends on your vantage point and your abilities of inference.You missed the point. If we relied solely on our senses, we would never be convinced the earth was round unless we saw it for ourselves i.e we would never take anyone else's word for it and since for most of us, our vantage point is based on a seemingly flat landscape, the earth is round theory will never have progressed and consequently most scientific breakthroughs will never have happened. At a point, we just had to accept the authority of someone else even though it disagreed with our senses. 1 Like |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 7:19pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer: You're splitting hairs. Whether person, object or sensory perception, this definition always holds for authority: An authority defines scope, and augments the position of another. It is a conferred or consented right. |
Re: Religion And Authority by PastorAIO: 7:20pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Since we know that the senses deceive us all the time how can you confer such a high authority on the senses. People have been hypnotised to feel pain. Pain has been hypnotised away. There are so many effects that can be created by messing with the senses. It is ridiculous to place such a high stock on sensory information. Imagine a scenario. You are with four friends and you see a white horse and you point at it and say to them, 'look at that beautiful white horse'. They respond, 'what beautiful white horse are you drunk? There is nothing there, or , oh, you mean that dirty pig wallowing in the mud' You don't see a pig but you still see a beautiful white horse. Which Authority will you accept more. The Authority of your senses or the Authority of Consensus. 4 different people are seeing things differently from you. |
Re: Religion And Authority by MrAnony1(m): 7:22pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: Let's put it this way. An Authority is what you rely on to determine the TRUTH. About truth, does this imply that there can be multiple truths? This is because different people defer to different "highest authorities" |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 7:22pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: Since we know that the senses deceive us all the time how can you confer such a high authority on the senses.+1 As much as sensory perception is an authority, it is sometimes yet based on the authority of memory. And either of the two (perception and memory) can easily be manipulated. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 7:37pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: Let's put it this way. An Authority is what you rely on to determine the TRUTH. Would you say that numbers are an authority just as the Bible and the church are authorities? Note that I didn't say my senses were my authority because the way the word is used makes it open to various degrees of misunderstanding which is what is happening already. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 7:44pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:How? Numbers don't even exist. They are abstractions of size, and only have value because we associate them with a group of similar objects with some shared characteristics (all called numbers). |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 7:50pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: Okay. So who or what is it? Mr_Anony: Why should I? I didn't say anything along those lines. You're the one who was talking of pain in the absence of a stimulus not me. Mr_Anony: If you cannot see that one's senses are in a different class from books or other people, then I really cannot help you. Mr_Anony: I didn't miss the point because you're committing another error. Taking another person's word for something doesn't automatically make that person an authority when the person actually has some good reasons for what they're saying. It simply means that the person is right with good reason. The whole point is for you to avoid simply taking people at their word and examining how they arrived at their conclusion. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 7:56pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: Are you basically saying that you're consenting to use your senses? How is that even possible? Are your senses someone else that you're granting it consent? Do your senses augment the position of someone else other than yourself? Do your senses define the scope of someone other than yourself? I seriously find it difficult to believe that you're trying to defend the idea that your senses are like the Bible or another person. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 8:06pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: Since we know that the senses deceive us all the time how can you confer such a high authority on the senses. That's just it. I don't confer "authority" to my senses. Pastor AIO: This doesn't counter what I've said. There are various theories behind the idea of hypnosis and none of them really leads to the conclusion that the person is or isn't in pain. Pastor AIO: If one is hallucinating, then that's all there is to it. All I can say here is that my senses aren't an "authority" in the way that the consensus would be considered to be an authority. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 8:09pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer: I hope you READ that I typed [b]conferred [/b]or consented, and not only consented? In the case of senses, they are conferred. In the cas3 of a third party, it is consented. Surely you couldn't have missed that. So I can't believe you're saying one requires no conferring from their brains to believe or accept their senses! How does sensory perception work then? Why are there neurologically-based conditions like synaesthesia, derealization and delirium? Your senses do not augment the position or define the scope of someone else, but then your senses are not you, so they still augment the position of another (i.e. you, as opposed to the senses themselves). The point here is that either way, an authority defines scope. It is that which you accept or depend upon or believe in to establish a reference point or axiom. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 8:10pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: Keep in mind the definition that Pastor AIO was using which is what I was responding to. Which was: Pastor AIO: We use numbers to arrive at some truths don't we? Saying they don't exist means that you're able to grant "authority" to something that doesn't exist. That way lies madness. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 8:14pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer: Numbers are an abstraction of size, so they can serve as an authority in establishing a relative frame of reference, even though they don't exist as objects. There is no madness in there. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 8:20pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: How is this better? You're saying that you conferred authority to your senses? Can your senses decide to do something else like deceive you the way books or people can? Do you confer authority to your stomach to digest food? Or does it just digest food whether you like it or not? InesQor: Sensory perception works directly. There are no permissions asked or granted. InesQor: Your senses aren't a person. They're a part of you unlike books or other people. Again, you're butting up against the problems but you're refusing to see it. Is it possible for your senses to augment the position of someone else other than you who they're a part of? InesQor: You do realize that axioms are what you accept or depend upon to believe in to establish a reference point. Are they also authorities? |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 8:27pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: In other words, numbers exist. Using your definition, did you confer anything upon numbers or did you consent? How do these abstract numbers define your scope and augment your position? |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 8:30pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
@thehomer: You're still splitting hairs. Senses are a special case because they are a feedback system, a part of your body, yet you need to accept the information that they provide as an authority. It is possible to experience a sense and refuse to accept it as an authority e.g. because another authority (like a doctor) has informed you that you're only hallucinating. If you mind does not confer the authority to accept the information supplied, the authority of the senses will be discarded. This is inherent to how sensory perception works. Yes, axioms are also [i]authorities [/i]in a particular case, for whoever confers the right of authority on the axiom. i.e accepts the axiom. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 8:34pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:No they don't. Can you show me a seven? Or allow me experience a million? thehomer: Using your definition, did you confer anything upon numbers or did you consent?I confer the abstraction/idea of two upon a set of objects based on mentally associating that set with another group of similar objects with some shared characteristics i.e. size, also a count of two. "Two" in itself means absolutely nothing, and does not exist. "Two" then defines the scope (i.e. size of the set of objects) and it augments my position because I am informed of the size / limitation of the set of objects. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 8:35pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: @thehomer:(Emphasis mine) Come on. You know I'm not splitting hairs. You've effectively shown why your senses aren't like books or other people. Otherwise, what follows is whether you consider your mind to be an authority. How on earth can someone confer the right of authority to an axiom? You see, you're already slipping in your use of the word authority. I simply wonder if you're ready to progress further with the discussion. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 8:42pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:Yes, senses aren't like books or other people, but you still [i]need [/i]to accept or believe the information they provide. Every source of information can be considered an authority, as long as you accept it as one. This is why I said conferred [/b]or [b]consented. The mind can be considered an authority. Yet, as I said, perception and memory can be influenced or manipulated, so the authority may not be absolutely reliable. thehomer: How on earth can someone confer the right of authority to an axiom? You see, you're already slipping in your use of the word authority.I am not slipping in my use. My use still stands as An authority defines scope, and augments the position of another. It is a conferred or consented right. An axiom defines the scope within which logic operates, and augments the position of the premises built upon that axiom. This is because we have accepted these axioms as TRUE (i.e. conferred or consented). Surely my position is entirely consistent. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 8:47pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: You're being self contradictory. You've already said they exist albeit abstractly. InesQor: Could you decide not to confer the abstract number two to two keys? InesQor: I just noticed that your definition is a bit ambiguous and I'm wondering if that is one of the problems here. Take another look at it. InesQor: Does the word in bold only refer to people? And what is scope there referring to? i.e scope of what? |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 8:58pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:They are abstractions. Ideas not associated with any specific instance, and so they do not "exist" on their own. Yet they can be used as frames of reference. thehomer:Yes, if you are experiencing a sensory illusion your abstraction will differ from mine. thehomer:The word "another" in bold refers to any instance, object or idea outside that which is being considered as an authority. It can be a person or whatever. Scope has its normal meaning in English. The extent of operation, or value, or ambit of definition, if you may. e.g. in the case of your sense of sight, the scope would be how far, how clear, etc that you can possibly see. This determines how much of an authority I will consider my sense of sight to be. Are you short-sighted? The scope of your sight as an authority is thus-defined. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 9:00pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor:(Emphasis mine) The highlighted portion of your post is what I've been saying all along. InesQor: So you [/b]conferred authority to [b]your [/b]mind? Who is this you conferring this authority to your mind? InesQor: An axiom defines the scope within which logic operates, and augments the position of the premises built upon that axiom. This is because we have accepted these axioms as TRUE (i.e. conferred or consented). Surely my position is entirely consistent. Do numbers and your senses have rights? Does an axiom have rights? An axiom defines the scope of logic? Are you sure you don't have it the wrong way around? You're saying that a statement like the set of integers is infinite defines the scope of logic. You're also forgetting that axioms are premises themselves so how is their own position augmented? |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 9:08pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:I already mentioned neurological disorders and mental conditions in which one cannot trust the operation of their mind. e.g. Derealization, and delirium. So, if you [b]think you are mentally and neurologically healthy, then you may confer the authority of trust to your (assumed) healthy mind. thehomer:Anything can be said to have a right of authority if you have [b]allowed [/b]it to [i]influence [/i]your experience. thehomer:Yes, an axiom defines the scope of logic. You can't logically relate to a "largest possible number" because there is an accepted axiom that the set of integers is infinite. thehomer: You're also forgetting that axioms are premises themselves so how is their own position augmented?This is why they are called axioms, d'uh. They are already [b]accepted [/b]as [i]unquestionably [/i]correct. Thus are accepted as an authority. I think the problem you're having is that you're limiting the definition of "authority" to one's sensory perceptions. This is not true. Whatever you accept as authority is authority for you. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 9:10pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Axiom (n): A proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is [b]assumed [/b]to be self-evident |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 9:20pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: In other words, they do exist. InesQor: If you're hallucinating, then you're not deciding not to confer the abstract number two to two keys. InesQor: Can you be an authority to the number two? InesQor: Okay. So with your example of two, is it the number two that is defining your use of it to two keys or are you using the number two for the two keys because of the way it matches the concept? |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 9:27pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:What does existence mean to you? thehomer:When you're hallucinating, you may be deciding to confer the abstract number three to two keys. thehomer:This makes me feel you're just wasting my time. How does this make sense of my earlier submission? I said numbers can be an authority, and not that I am an authority to numbers. Number PI acts as an authority (a reference point) as the ratio of a perfect circle's circumference to its diameter. thehomer:Two [/i]defines your use indirectly. In order for you to TELL that it matches the concept, it means you have subjected yourself to comparing the subject with the abstraction in your head for what "[i]two" means. You have accepted and believed what [i]two [/i]represents. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 9:35pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: Yes you did but as I pointed out, you don't grant them authority, you simply perceive what you perceive. InesQor: Lol wut? Numbers have rights because you've allowed them to influence your experience? Gravity has rights because you've allowed it to pull you towards the earth? InesQor: How exactly does an axiom define the scope of logic? InesQor: So you're basically saying that there are certain authorities that have no support themselves? InesQor: Actually, I don't think that one's sensory perceptions are an authority. I think it is a misuse of the word to apply it to the senses. |
Re: Religion And Authority by InesQor(m): 9:42pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
@thehomer: You cannot stick to only ONE definition or authority out of many possible ones and claim that an authority must be a person thehomer: I think my points have been made here. I'm tired of going round in circles. |
Re: Religion And Authority by Ptolomeus(m): 9:44pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Going to the original topic of the thread. I agree that many people have a tendency to derive their decisions to allow decisions to be made towards the other. That is a religious principle ... that reminds me of the famous phrase "Furer thought for me ..." I also believe that human beings need to "idols" of "leaders" of "heroes" or "heroes". That also applies to religion ... that many priests are "deified." But I think there are no accidents. On the religious level all is well studied and understood. If the dependence on authority, and the search for reference we add FEAR, people are quite permeable to the "authority". There are many religions that use these three principles as pillars to ensure through fear, leadership and authority, the fidelity of the people. My respects |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 9:55pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: It means all that there is. They're roughly divided into abstract and concrete objects. InesQor: Hallucinations aren't under your control. If you're perceiving three keys when there are two, then you're not deciding to confer three to two keys, you're just doing it. InesQor: It makes sense in that you're pretty much implying that anything can be an authority to anything else which doesn't make sense. And that is why the concept should be limited to certain objects like people, books etc. If you cannot be an authority to two, then can someone else be an authority to two? InesQor: You're basically saying that the number two is somehow making you use it correctly. But it isn't so. You use it correctly otherwise you just end up being incoherent. What you're saying is no better than saying that words somehow make you use them correctly when the point is that if you don't use them correctly, you will simply be failing to communicate. |
Re: Religion And Authority by thehomer: 9:57pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: @thehomer: Why not? What was the source of your definition? InesQor: My entire point was to show you that certain things fit the idea that you're presenting better than what you're postulating. |
Re: Religion And Authority by MrAnony1(m): 10:16pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
thehomer:At thehomer, I would very much like to continue with you but it is beginning to occur to me (and especially reading your argument with InesQor) that you are purposely trying to misunderstand Pastor AIO premise. For this reason, I won't continue with you. I don't want to dance around in circles today. I'll continue with Pastor AIO who by the way is yet to answer my questions though. |
What Does God Do Exactly ? / Star Of David Planetary Alignment July 22 2013 / Pastor Catches Wife Having Sex With Guest Pastor He Invited To His Church
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 108 |