layi:

How do u know how the Bible was compiled If not for written 'history' (since u werent there). How can u use a written book (your references) to disproove a written book (Bible)...Its because u too want to disproove the Bible. Simple!!

Like I always say: 2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


I have the spirit that created the world, the one the bible preach...residing in me. This aint no placebo effect...because He's as real as life itself.

Layi,

I praise you for your spirituality. I actually envy you. It would make my life way easier if I could believe.

The only thing I want to point out is that The Bible as it stands is not the only reference for spirituality. It is not even the only source for Christianity. Read some of the Gnostic gospels and writings (unfortunately most of them were destroyed, but some still remain, such as the dead sea scrolls) and you will know and understand that there is far more spirit in these than in the canonized gospels.
It's such a shame that some of the more charismatic churches do not reach back to the roots of where their spirituality comes from.

Even though I cannot connect intellectually, emotionally I feel for the Gnostic tradition. It is in line with my pantheistic spirituality

nferyn:

Layi,

I praise you for your spirituality. I actually envy you. It would make my life way easier if I could believe.

The only thing I want to point out is that The Bible as it stands is not the only reference for spirituality. It is not even the only source for Christianity. Read some of the Gnostic gospels and writings (unfortunately most of them were destroyed, but some still remain, such as the dead sea scrolls) and you will know and[b] understand that there is far more spirit in these than in the canonized gospels. [/b] It's such a shame that some of the more charismatic churches do not reach back to the roots of where their spirituality comes from.

Even though I cannot connect intellectually, emotionally I feel for the Gnostic tradition. It is in line with my pantheistic spirituality

I'll also like you to know that a spirit is a beign that cannot be quantified. U don't have more or less of HIM. U either have him or U don't. His purpose is to give us life and make us alive unto our creator.

I also know that the one with the spirit is far better than the one with the history or mere knowlege of the origin of the spirituality- the end justifies the means. I can't have money and bother myself wit how it was minted. I have it and i know it was minted-thats all i need.

For me spirituality is a feeling of one-ness with your environment and the world. A deeper connection with the living system that is earth. It is not something intellectual, it's actually hard to define. It certainly has no gender or is in one way or another connected to any known religion (although Buddhism may come close)

I can reach that level either through meditation or by making love to my wife (but then again, it certainly doesn't happen all the times) I have the feeling that I'm outside of my body, I'm on another plane of conscienceness. My senses are ultra sharp and everything seems to be going very slowly

I know intellectually that it is just a chemical condition in my brain, but it feels real and it is meaningful for me. If I want to reach that level it is very important that I'm very calm and that I do not have any negative emotions at all

Does that make sense to you?

layi:

How do u know how the Bible was compiled If not for written 'history' (since u werent there). How can u use a written book (your references) to disproove a written book (Bible)...Its because u too want to disproove the Bible. Simple!!

Like I always say: 2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


I have the spirit that created the world, the one the bible preach...residing in me. This aint no placebo effect...because He's as real as life itself.

if we cannot use a written book to disprove a written book, then we cannot use the bible to prove anything and everything you have just posted and your previous posts based on the bible become meaningless.

nferyn:

Layi,

I praise you for your spirituality. I actually envy you. It would make my life way easier if I could believe.

The only thing I want to point out is that The Bible as it stands is not the only reference for spirituality. It is not even the only source for Christianity. Read some of the Gnostic gospels and writings (unfortunately most of them were destroyed, but some still remain, such as the dead sea scrolls) and you will know and understand that there is far more spirit in these than in the canonized gospels.
It's such a shame that some of the more charismatic churches do not reach back to the roots of where their spirituality comes from.

Even though I cannot connect intellectually, emotionally I feel for the Gnostic tradition. It is in line with my pantheistic spirituality

It must be possible to quantify the spirit. Christians talk all the time of being "more" in Christ or trying to get "more" into the word. So, there must be some quantity of Christ they possess, and some quantity they still need.

allonym:

[SNIP]
It must be possible to quantify the spirit. Christians talk all the time of being "more" in Christ or trying to get "more" into the word. So, there must be some quantity of Christ they possess, and some quantity they still need.

It is possible to quantify (or at least to operationalise) the spirit. It's a very specific neurological condition where perception of the external world diminishes (reduced activity in parts of the brain that process sensorial inputs)

allonym:

if we cannot use a written book to disprove a written book, then we cannot use the bible to prove anything and everything you have just posted and your previous posts based on the bible become meaningless.
[SNIP]

I don't want to get into this argument. There are different levels of evidence and layi does not want to see that historical evidence from different sources that witstood historical criticism, as well as archaeological evidence, is on a different level of relevance that the selective compiled account of several gospels from different Christian communities that all had their agenda's.

I wish....

Spirituality is of course a phenomenon but Spirit (by which u experience spirituality) is actually a BEIGN. I wonder how u believe in spirituality when u deny the supernatural. I do not preach the bible. I preach christ who i have come to know -through the Bible. A christain is not one who castigates other religions rather he's one who helps u achieve the initial purpose of religion -connection wit the creator.
There is absolutely no way to proove GOD to anyone...neither is there a shortcut to JESUS. We all have to find him out individually.
If the purpose of the discourse is to proove wit our 'rationality' the existence or not of a suprenatural reality, then i'll say we'll go nowhere. Humans are limited and our thinkin subject to a lot of factors...so we r prone to err. Life itself is complicated cos 2 people of opposing factions can both be (look) right. I do not think that spirituality, God, supernatural is what i FEEL it should be. I'll rather pray for a leading to know what it is not what it should be...cos I know that there is a GOD somewhere.  Every human knows this. We just want to go the lucifer way - make our throne like HIS and claim mastery over a universe we met here.

allonym:

if we cannot use a written book to disprove a written book, then we cannot use the bible to prove anything and everything you have just posted and your previous posts based on the bible become meaningless.


It must be possible to quantify the spirit. Christians talk all the time of being "more" in Christ or trying to get "more" into the word. So, there must be some quantity of Christ they possess, and some quantity they still need.

Ur posts actually is meaninless cos it's out of ignorance. If u can disproove the bible with another book. Why cant u disproove the written book with the Bible as well. I only implied that u let the books stand on the same pedestal and we see which 'carries power and livin nuggets'. Put them to test and see which would carry u far above the fiery winds of the world.
U dont just say 1 is wrong cos the other says so.

Thats the problem. U argue from the outside. Christians talk about growing into the Spirit and becoming more sensitive to him not growing the spirit. Theye are the one imroving in the things of the spirit. Its very obvious if only u were a christian or at least have a lil knowledge of what goes on in the christian circuit. i explained just so u'll understand..No need ignoring.

layi:

[SNIP]
Every human knows this. We just want to go the lucifer way - make our throne like HIS and claim mastery over a universe we met here.

This is simply not true, layi. I come from a secular background and to me the concept of the monotheistic God (be it Jewish, Christian or Muslim) is absolutely meaningless. I can only infer the concept from what believers tell me and it still doesn't make any sense. I am truly, honestly puzzled as to why people can believe in it.

How can I reject something that just is not there for me. Both God and Satan have no meaning for me.

layi:

Thats the problem. U argue from the outside. Christians talk about growing into the Spirit and becoming more sensitive to him not growing the spirit. Theye are the one imroving in the things of the spirit. Its very obvious if only u were a christian or at least have a lil knowledge of what goes on in the christian circuit. i explained just so u'll understand..No need ignoring.

Exactly, I just do not comprehend your state of mind. I explained what my spirituality is like, so that maybe we can find a way to translate each others concepts

U should know the second quote wasnt for you. So don't get confused.
Sincerely U make me enjoy this discourse. I'm actually learning how to debate from you but some would just come into it ignorantly makin harsh remarks (..nothing wrong though if it was an informed remark)

you forget layi that I am a christian.

Christians - at least at the churches that I've attended, talk about growing in the spirit. This suggests to me that there are varying degrees of closeness one can feel. I suppose you cannot technically "quantize" a continuous distribution any more than you can isolate a charge with the magnitude of a single electron. Yet, we are still able to talk about "quantities" of charge and in this discussion I think it's appropriate to talk about quantizing spirit.

layi:

U should know the second quote wasnt for you. So don't get confused.
Sincerely U make me enjoy this discourse. I'm actually learning how to debate from you but some would just come into it ignorantly makin harsh remarks (..nothing wrong though if it was an informed remark)

These harsh remarks are usually only harsh because of the tone in which they were written - and I know because I've fallen into this trap as well

Concerning the quantification of the spirit: from an outsider's perspective, you can operationalise visionary experiences, when people are speaking in tongues and the like. Are these the circumstances in which people are into the spirit or is it something else alltogether?

Outward displays of spirituality is not a yardstick for measuring ones growth in the spirit. Such visionary displays can be faked.
Like i said earlier. The Spirit is a beign..not a force or phenomenon. Every human is a Spirit that lives in a Human body. We are connected to God(who is also a spiirt) via the spirit realm. We actually grow into our sensitivity to THE SPIRIT of God. We do not grow the spirit of God in us.
The issue of quantification really depends on what/who we understand the spirit to be. Dictionary definition howevers calls Spirit a BEIGN. Can u quantify a beign?

interesting question

according to the bible, the holy spirit dwells within each christian, but there is only one father, son and holy spirit and the trinity is indeed one and the same. So, we are able to quantify God into three entities, why not the holy spirit, which we already acknowledge is partitioned among all christians?

@allonym
The Holy Spirit is not partitioned amongst christians. He's one supernatural beign. He is the Spirit of GOD. He is 100% in me and 100% in U. He's not a discrete particle that can be shared. He is GOD - omnipresent.
GOD himself is not partioned. The trinity is just the 3 manifestations of the GOD head. He was revealed first to the world as GOD the father, He then came as GOD the Son and now He lives amongst us as GOD the Holy Spirit.
The father however never leaves his throne...the spirit proceeds from HIM (while still conplete in Him) and brings his presence to us.

@Layi, you're definitely not making sense in your foolish delineation of the "tripartite" nature of God. May God help you and other idiots that subscribe to this your blasphemy! Shun trinity, God is one!

Foolish and idiot? Just to say there is ONE GOD. I'm really amazed at the kind of humans we r breedin down here. The fact that this is an online forum does not mean u should hide behind a PC and throw tantrums and stupid remarks at people who are obviously trying to have an intellectual discourse.
I've noticed only Nferyn has been able to do this without personal attacks and I doff my hats for him. We've over the years called christians fanatics and apologetics but its obvious the non-christians r more brutal verbally and physically.

Pouring water into a basket had never been my thing so I might have to stop posting here. Its becoming a useless/painful venture.

Ajisafe:

@Layi, you're definitely not making sense in your foolish delineation of the "tripartite" nature of God. May God help you and other idiots that subscribe to this your blasphemy! Shun trinity, God is one!

I'm sure u know u have a soul and a body. Does that make you 2? Why don't people think deeply before fooling themselves in the public? I thot u knew better. Who's d idiot anyway?

layi:

[SNIP]
We've over the years called christians fanatics and apologetics but its obvious the non-christians r more brutal verbally and physically.

This is not true, layi. You should bring some evidence to substantiate this. Don't feel persecuted, you are the majority
You have the decency to not make this personal and live and let live. A lot of Christians want to force their truth on others.

And apologetics are not bad per se, they are just defenders of the faith

layi:

I've noticed only Nferyn has been able to do this without personal attacks and I doff my hats for him.

I'm quite sorry, I feel that once someone starts resorting to personal attacks, there is no longer any point continuing the discussion. I'm sorry for any attacks my posts may have contained.

Ajisafe:

@Layi, you're definitely not making sense in your foolish delineation of the "tripartite" nature of God. May God help you and other idiots that subscribe to this your blasphemy! Shun trinity, God is one!

This is very typical of Ajisafe.

Nor be only u notice. I hav recieved Pms complaining bout the personal attack approach he uses. Wetin man go do?

Where I found his weaknesses was on that thread about using logic to explain the existence of God. That's why I hardly respond to any rubbish he posts.

Hmm well, we are all diffrent. seems he's piped low recently.I enjoy his post at times but......hmm.....No hard feelins o ajisafe.

yes oo! no hard feelings, ajisafe

Couple of Questions.....

1.Why was jesus crying "oh God Oh God why have you forseeken me"....? If he is God in human flesh as many christians state, then he should have known that he is going to die to save your sins (i don't believe and wouldnt allow him to carry my sins. I'm responsible for my own actions)!

Why ask God:

“My Father, if it is possible, don’t make me suffer by having me drink from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want.”


Was his pray answered? rejected? What happened?

2. Why were the disciples shocked to see jesus?  Luke 24 36-49.
What did Jesus prove by saying that he doesn't look like a gost. What was he trying to tell them by asking them to fill him and ate in front of them? ....Let me save you the time. He wasnt a gost.


3. Why was Jesus disguised as a Gardner? John 20:14 Why is he still afraid of the romans? IF he died, why should he be scared to die again? (Luke 20:36 he states that you only get to die once).

Jesus is telling you in the most unambiguous language that he is not a spirit - not spiritualised, not a resurrected person, and yet the whole Christian world believes that he was resurrected, i.e. spiritualised. Who is lying, you or him?

They have a mouth, and they speak not; eyes have they, and they see not. (pslams)

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). Quran 2:18. Are you one of them? Detach yourself from your emotions and use what God has given us humans what has made us distinct. REASON.


Quran Chp 3.
45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

kismat:

1.Why was jesus crying "oh God Oh God why have you forseeken me"....?

God does not like sin or anything synonymous with it. When Jesus died, the sin of the whole world was on him. So God had to keep his face away from him for that moment. That was why he cried out that why did God forsake him.

kismat:

If he is God in human flesh as many christians state, then he should have known that he is going to die to save your sins (i don't believe and wouldnt allow him to carry my sins. I'm responsible for my own actions)!

He knew he was going to die. Afterall, he had been predicting his death before that day. He died for ur sins and there's nothing you or anybody can do/say to change that fact.

kismat:

Why ask God:

“My Father, if it is possible, don’t make me suffer by having me drink from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want.”

His spirit was willing but his flesh was weak.

kismat:

3. Why was Jesus disguised as a Gardner? John 20:14 Why is he still afraid of the romans? IF he died, why should he be scared to die again? (Luke 20:36 he states that you only get to die once).

Jesus didn't disguise as a gardener. It was Mary that didn't recognise him and took him for a gardener.

nice answers goodguy

Thanks. I have a lot to say. I just decided to shorten for future 'attacks'

goodguy:

Thanks. I have a lot to say.

yeah. but your #1 answer when you don't know what to say is "i don't know. God don't want nobody to know. he has his purpose for it"

how lame!

oh oh oh.....God had to turn his face away from his "son"? what a crap...where is this mentioned? how can my father ignore me when someone down the street is drilling nails down my palm, feet? And you say God is loving? This is why christianity is a contributor to the growing number of atheists. Millions who have had bad relationship witht here dads are asked to believe in a God who does similar thing to his "Son".

If God wants to forgive you/us, all he had to do is say it. Why put his "son" on the spot, turn  his face away and have this loving, caring honest man cry and experience this mind boggling execution? Why?

Because you are taught not to ask questions and go beyond this absurd theory of human sacrifice. You are responsible of your own sins and so i'm i. Where is this mentioned? aha

(Deuteronomy 24:16): "The father shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Matthew 7:1,2)"Judge not, that ye be not Judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

(Ezekiel 18:20) "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

So Who is telling the truth?

This is the problem with christianity, you have been indoctrinated to believe that God is like man. What you read in the bible and what you believe in are totally the opposite. totally different. Jesus said you cant see God and live. no one has seen God. But you still believe Jesus is God in human flesh? lol....honestly, there's a reason why that verse in pslams was revealed. they have eyes but they dont see. Be a proper christian and stop using this highly charged part of you (emotions) and use what God has given you and i that makes us different from the animals. Intelligence. Use it, read and think of what you're reading before believing in it and posting your ignorance to the world.


Now I understand why scientists and learned men of Christianity dont accept this God/man association. Because God is beyond our reasoning. He doesn’t have mouth, nose, teeth, take a piss, circumcised, begs for food or place to sleep, not begotten neither does he beget and most importantly there's NONE like him. I look up at the stars, read about the laws of physics, amazed by biology (fetus development) and trully understand why God says he is the best of Creators. the magnificant, the best of all judges, the one and only one true God.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4-6)

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee." (Deuteronomy 4:23)

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is One Lord:" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:6)

kismat, u know what if Christians believe that Jesus is man, whose business is it. Leave us to our belief. U have come out criticizing as if u r better. God gave his son to die for our sins ..it was a one time sacrifice because he didn't want constant sacrifices. How can u say God didn't love his son..Infact which father doesn't but this had to be done for future sons...because we are Gods children...heirs to his kingdom.

I can't imagine how our lives would av been without Jesus's death.

There's no problem with Christianity....there never was....and never will. We av not been indoctrinated at all but believe what we read..simple. No one has seen God..but Jesus is the visible likeness of the invisible God.

How do know who a proper Christian is if u aren't one? Infact what do u mean by been a proper Christian.. U make me laugh. If u think us ignorant..then i am happy to be so because it is better for me to be ignorant and serve Jesus ..than knowledgeable and be lost.

See scientists believe in science and nothing more...in the physical and not the spiritual...but without the creation of the physical by the spiritual their belief is baseless.

I disagree that learned men of christianity don't believe in God. No learned person of Christianity will not believe in God ...well if they don't then they are not Christians because that is the very basis of our belief.

We are happy as Christians to post what we believe not out of ignorance but from joy at having found a Saviour and a friend...but as well as sharing the Goodnews with others. Why should we be ashamed of what we believe. NEVER.. For those that do not share our belief, it may not make sense but to those that do, they will understand.

It is a priviledge to serve the LORD.

Pretty, you are misquoting me. I didn't say learned Christians dint believe in God. They dont believe in this human sacrifice theory. The fact that you say you cant believe what this world would be without jesus death is absurd. This is the same exact reason why George washington furiously separated religion from state. Such thinking only leads to degradation of humanity and takes us back to the the dark ages. You know why they call it the dark ages? Because people had the exact same thought about religion. He died for our sins, that thats it. They (your priests and christian preachers) imprisoned Galileo because he simply said the sun is at the center of the world and not vice versa.

I'm not better than you nor are you better than me. We all (at one point in time, we were born) believed in the same God. The only differences is my parents thought me about one God and you were thought about Jesus cruxification death. All i'm trying to do is help you realise your original belief.

Didn't misquote nothing , no one can be a christian without believing the crucifixion.

And as i told u earlier, i'm better off been a Christian than been lost.