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Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 7:06pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200: You are missing it somewhere. There is this god that are morally upright, that commands our moral obligations, he directs our do-and-donts, how we interact within ourselves. He suppose to command them not do so and and to stop since they are already doing it. You are doing all these to divert attentions. To be sincere with you. I have my brain 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 7:11pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:[size=14pt]The ransom is for the life of the owner of the killer Ox[/size] who knew his Ox dangerous tendencies but left it to roam freely Exodus 21:29,30 29 But if the ox had the habit of goring, and its owner was warned, and he did not take the necessary precautions, and then it killed a man or a woman, the ox must be stoned and the man must be put to death. 30 If a ransom is set for him, then he must pay the redemption for his life according to whatever amount was set for him. But how do you 'correct' that habit for the Ox? So, was this referring to a slave? Exodus 21:28 You still sound as though the Ox will gore only slaves!!! Your premise for that conclusion is faulty; where is the IF that justify your claim? Seems you don't understand that statement! \ Oh good, you finally got another soon to be overworked cliche! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by johnydon22(m): 7:12pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
When someone say religious tilt blinds people's sense of reason and judgement, you can simply come to this thread and see it first hand. . [size=16] Someone cannot just say; Slavery is wrong in what ever form it may appear.. [/size] 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 7:16pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
johnydon22: That's what i am telling him, there is no way he can twist slavery as represented in the bible to justify that god didn't support the act and still gave directives on how to manage it 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:16pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:I cannot take away what you did to me. You are a kind person right? Meaning you agree people make mistake and you accepts their apology,but being a kind person doesn't mean I should take away their responsibility to deal with their mistakes.forget about atheism for now and reason with me. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 7:18pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:Explain vividly... |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by johnydon22(m): 7:21pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:It is very clear for all to see my dear. . . Slavery is wrong and that is it, maybe you need a microscope to see where the bible says. "Don't enslave another" But No in the bible "You can even sell your own daughter to another" and its ok. When people lack all independent reason that they cannot bluntly say this is wrong even at the detriment of their beliefs, we all can see religion mars humans. This express biased tilt from the Christians when faced with the idea of slavery that they cannot just condemn it in whatever form it comes but rather fights tooth and nail to justify it even when it is clear that it is wrong, kills the topic intoto because they just showed that morality as it is, is subjective.. Like i told the Op, am not supposed to keep lecturing him on human morality while he repeats the same childish argument over and over again!!! 5 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:21pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:God himself has already fullfiled his promises to us , in the old testament we see a God of justice who is ready to even punished his children if the violate his moral law , but after the reconciliation everything end their. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:30pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:ok, let me not involved anyone here, will you find it easy to forgive yourself for all the evil you commit ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 7:32pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:I repeat,what justifies killing the ox when a fine has been paid... secluding the ox and/or sedating are options but let's leave this bit out for important parts of your argument. This is serious,I doubt anyone would have trouble reading and comprehending his own statements like you do...(below) author=Scholar8200 post=36570770] So you've created a dillema,because you made a statement that "if" doesn't imply commands....so what's that saying about the ox being killed and a payment being made...a request? Logic fail! You've been touting cliche all day,do you fancy the word or fail to understand it's meaning? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 7:33pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:I make amends and move on.. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 7:42pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Where is the reconciliation or are you trying to replace change to reconciliation so as to sound paradoxical. 1 Like |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:52pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:I know you will not be sincere, anyway, let it sealed in your heart, I've seen many people who find it difficult to even forgive themselves for the wrong they commit ,I've don many bad things in my life that I find its hard to forgive myself, but ever since I make peace with God, I've been doing great. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 7:55pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:How am I insincere by saying I make amends?.. 2 Likes |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 8:07pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:At a time when technology was very primitive (unlike today), the need for human capital was very high; productive activities were largely labour-intensive; most times, slaves were required only for economic activities (agriculture, building etc). In fact, those who were poor gave themselves out as slaves to get a benefit eg Jacob, Egyptians to Pharaoh Genesis 47:25,26 etc Hence thew law given was to guide how they were to relate with them given the reality that was obtainable then. An abrupt halt to the practise will mean that, in some cases, the slaves will be worst hit. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:09pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:a man who has a rebellion son but because he love this son will do anything to reconciled himself with the son, the children of isreal are like a sons to God and because of their always disobedient to God , God always punished them just as a father will punished his sons for the mistake the do. God created adam and adam disobeyed God. That is were the separation started. But because God love us unconditional he provide a way in which man will reconcile with him. 2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. After the reconciliation, God will not count our formal sin, we begin a new chapter with him: Romans 4:8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them." 1 Corinthians 13:5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self- seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 8:10pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:Selling slaves and buying slaves isn't equal to indebted servitude...the Bible explicably gives instructions on how to buy,sell and treat slaves. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:15pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:ok, whatever your thought are, let its be sealed in you. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 8:33pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212: this is the kind of argument that do makes me to dislike all these Christian apologists trying too hard to find reasons to cover up vivid argument. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 8:35pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:10-20 Bible verses to explain one verse. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 9:10pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:okay madam atheist. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 10:23pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
johnydon22: Dishonest arguments from people like Malvisguy212 and Scholar8200 is part of the reason rational people will keep leaving christianity. They really need to be ashamed of themselves. However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46) The bible very clearly has it's God telling people how to buy slaves and pass them as inheritance because they are property. To show that God knew it was bad he told them not to treat their relatives or the people of Israel in the same manner. The morality of most people alive today definitely did not come from this sadistic moral giver. Assuming that there is a moral giver anywhere. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 10:36pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
dalaman:honestly , you guys are missing the points, let try this way: What is slave in this context ?"Slaves" in this context are debtors (mortgage holders, for instance), employees, and tax payers. We still have slavery. You are probably a slave unless you are an entrepreneur with no debt. Read the whole context . Do you read everything in just a few sentences or verse ?? Can you not read the whole chapter and comprehend the meaning? Old Testament laws regulating slavery are confusing to modern people, but in their historical context they provided a degree of social recognition and legal law protection to slaves that was advanced for its time (Exodus 21:20-27; Leviticus 25:44-46). We must keep in mind that on occasion it was an alternative to the massacre of a enemy populations in wartime and the starvation of the poor during famine times.Being a slave was a better then dieing of starvation There were strict laws on how a person was to be treated .This was not the same kind of slavery you think of as American black slavery .A slave owner in the bible could be killed by law for treating a person slave wrongly . A Mutually Beneficial Relationship Frequently was involved here.Fact in Bible times this was much more of an employer/employee relationship than an owner/slave situation. Even the words used to delineate between a hired servant and a slave are difficult for modern folks to comprehend . 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 10:56pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Why do you like lying shamelessly? Let me put it again. However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46) Please tell, where does it state that the slaves are debtors? It clearly states that you may purchase slaves. Are you trying to say it means you may purchase debtors? What the hell is wrong with you guys? don't you have any shame? Christian altaquiya. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by johnydon22(m): 11:12pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
dalaman:Lying to cover God's asss is not a sin bro am not sure he even read your post before copying and pasting a reply because if he did he wouldn't have shamelessly mustered up such obvious stupendous and clear lie as a defence. Most times i really just feel shame for these guys when i see these clear lies and mumuish defence busted like this. Makes me wonder if religion rids people of their wits 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 11:27pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
johnydon22: I once used to do the same here on this board. So I can understand where they are coming from. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Redlyn: 11:56pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
How many people has this board deconverted?! Its so good to witness logic, reason and critical thinking overcome decades of indoctrination. Long may it continue. 3 Likes 3 Shares |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 12:51am On Aug 04, 2015 |
dalaman:again, read my post once again, I do not deny slavery in the bible,what I say is this" slavery in the bible is different from slavery practice in the 17th century" do your research. Back in the days of Leviticus slavery was sanctioned due to economic reasons. Back then, there were no such thing as bankruptcy laws so people would sell themselves into slavery to rectify debts. From the Old Testament: “Whoever kidnaps someone, either to sell him or to keep him as a slave is to be put to death.” – Exodus 21:16 From the New Testament: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. –Galatians 3:28 Do these two verses sound like condoning slavery? Israel was prohibited from territorial gains beyond what Yahweh had promised to Abraham (Deuteronomy 2:1-23). Moreover, Israel was prohibited the practice of “forced slavery” as seen in Exodus 21:16, “Whoever kidnaps someone, either to sell him or to keep him as a slave, is to be put to death.” In another passage Moses declares, “If any of you kidnap Israelites and make them your slaves or sell them into slavery, you are to be put to death. In this way your nation will get rid of this evil” – Deuteronomy 24:7. In the first one, there is a general prohibition against slavery of anyone and in the second, a specific order against slavery of Israelites. Voluntary slavery is a completely different situation. Voluntary slavery arises when a person becomes so poor that they cannot make a living, cannot provide for themselves, and sell themselves into a relationship with a person who has money and can provide for the poor person. The Hebrew word for this is “ebed.” meaning servant, or bondman. The Bible describes Israel as the Lord’s bondservant, or slave, the same word ebed. “If any Israelites living near you become SO POOR that THEY SELL THEMSELVES to you as a slave, you shall not make them do the work of a slave. They shall stay with you as hired workers and serve you until the next Year of Restoration.” – Leviticus 25:39-40 The issue of poverty was one of the reasons that people sold themselves as servants. There were also provisions for freedom. They could be bought back by a relative, or by their own money. Working for someone else did not mean that they received nothing.“By their own money” meant a certain freedom to gain money and buy their own freedom. We have no reason to believe that the same was not true for the foreigners in the land. The verse says, “Purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land,” (Leviticus 25:44) and these were probably people like the Hebrews who fell on hard times and were poor. Being a servant in another household was better than starving. The rights are spelled out for the Hebrews but they would also apply to the foreigners who were welcomed into the land. The people were commanded: “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner; remember that you were foreigners in Egypt. Do not mistreat any widow or orphan.” – Exodus 22:21-22 “Suppose a foreigner living with you becomes rich, while some Israelites become poor and SELL THEMSELVES AS SLAVES to that foreigner or to a member of that foreigner’s family. After they are sold, they still have the right to be bought back. A brother or an uncle or a cousin or another close relative may buy them back; or if they themselves earn enough, they may buy their own freedom. They must consult the one who bought them, and they must count the years from the time they sold themselves until the next Year of Restoration and must set the price for their release on the basis of the wages paid hired workers. They must refund a part of the purchase price according to the number of years left, as if they had been hired on an annual basis. Their master must not treat them harshly. If they are not set free in any of these ways, they and their children must be set free in the next Year of Restoration. Israelites cannot be permanent slaves, because the people of Israel are the LORD’s slaves. He brought them out of Egypt; he is the LORD their God. – Leviticus 25:47-55 The central issue here is that slavery was initiated BY the slave, NOT by the owners, DEFINITELY not by forced. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 7:30am On Aug 04, 2015 |
dalaman: All these faking and twisting is the major reasons i left Christianity. Trying to justify the unjustifiable. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 8:24am On Aug 04, 2015 |
malvisguy212: You are just shameless, you go to Christian apologist sites to copy all the lies and propaganda they share just so that the religion will be promoted. But despite all their lies the bible is always there to embarrass you all. How can you own a person and even his family, buy and sell them and claim that it is not forced? If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 ) 1 Like |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 8:26am On Aug 04, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20: If it were Islam this shameless malvisguy22 will come and be splitting hairs and telling us how it is all wrong, but as long as it is christianity then he will find the weirdest of lies to explain away absurdities and craziness. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:30am On Aug 04, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:its a choice, you believe or you reject,you chose to reject God base on the OLD covenant ? Good for you . I've been saying this for long and I will continue to say it: The angel Lucifer fell and became Satan (“adversary”) due to his desire to supplant God. This was Lucifer’s single-minded obsession. He not only rejected God by attempting to supplant Him, but he urged humans to do likewise. Satan urged Eve to choose against God for her own self-fulfilment: Genesis 3:1-5 He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” . LET US ANALYSED THIS: The tactic is clear: firstly, question God’s statements, then, contradict God’s statements and, finally, urge rebellion in seeking equality with God. This manifests in atheists as 1. Questioning whether there is a God to make statements in the first place, so God did not say anything. 2. Contradicting the statements said to have been spoken by God. 3. Seeking equality with God by replacing God with the self. This satanic deception appeals strongly to atheists as it bolsters two of their desired delusions: 1 absolute autonomy: being free to do as they please, and 2 the lack of ultimate accountability: there are no eternal consequences for doing as they please. The fool say there is no God ,he is not a fool because he is an atheist , but he is a fool because he think he can get awy with his bad moral behaviour, he think God will not notice his sin . 1 Like 1 Share |
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