Sheikh And The Non-believers - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 9:47am On Jan 31, 2007 |
Baby, i dont really care how you intend to rate me because i came to nairaland to discuss issues and not personalities. But the answers are here; 1. Islam does not compel anyone to join it. There are Quranic verses and Hadith to support this. 2. Islam prescribe death sentence for any real muslim that deserted. This too is supported by Quran and Hadith If the two sound confusing to you then you go sort yourself out and i dont care how you feel about it. To be frank with you, i dont tell lies and i dont intend to start now ot to appease you or any one else in here. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by barikade: 10:25am On Jan 31, 2007 |
@belloti, I don't have a muslim background like some of the erudite personalities who have distinguished their debates with references from both the Qur'an, Hadith and the Bible. One thing that amazes me is that the reaction of most Muslims only lend more weight to the persuasion that Islam is not a peaceful religion despite the slogan by its adherents. What you have just stated is as contradictory in terms and reason as a square in a circle. If Islam does not compel anyone to join it, why then seek to kill people for making up their minds to leave it at all? Surely, that is compelling people against their wills to remain in a religion that they don't wish to remain in. However, we all know that there is such a compulsion in Islam which actually was believed by Muhammad to be the foundation of his revelations from "Allah". I would respect you for being sincere and not one who promotes falsehood; but then it is actually false to assume that Islam does not compel anyone to join it, because their are tons of proof to the contrary. Your last paragrapgh in response seems to confirm my suspicions that most Muslims are very quickly inclined to be unreasonable in a discussion. You may not intend to appease anyone, but that is a loud statement against the backdrop of the questions still plaguing Islam. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 12:17pm On Jan 31, 2007 |
Barikade, dont get me wrong about my reaction, sometimes you guys push us to the wall. About Islam, you finally got the right wordings that we could all agree on. Islam does not compel anyone to join the religion but Islam compel real muslims from deserting the religion. This is absolutely true. If you have problem with this its because you are not a muslim but i am comfortable with that provision like every other real muslims. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by mrpataki(m): 12:27pm On Jan 31, 2007 |
Thanks bari_kade for that insightful point. @ belloti, belloti: Reading this response of yours, I can deduce that Islam still compels you against your own-will, if in the case you wish to depart from that religion. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by barikade: 12:35pm On Jan 31, 2007 |
@belloti, It really doesn't stand to reason that the best (or "comfortable"  way to "compel" adherents to remain in any religion is by killing. That is actually suspect of a revelation run amock, and it does not matter if you or anyone is comfy with it. From what I have read, however, there is much weight to the fact that Islam was designed to compel people to both join and remain in it. You would agree with me that to compel someone to remain in Islam or face the threat of death is a violation of that person's will. There is no sane defence for that kind of situation against the backdrop that Islam is a religion of peace. The death threat against the will of a person is simply not peaceful by any stretch of imagination. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 3:52pm On Jan 31, 2007 |
 We are not looking at this from the same perspective, so you guys can give whatever deduction you chooses, but for me Islam is peace, if only you know. mrpataki, i cant trade islam for anything in this world and right now i reside in abuja with my little family, beyond the confines of sharia law but i abide by sharia principles 100%. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 1:53am On Feb 01, 2007 |
belloti: what a nice,well written islamic answer. In summary islam is simply a religion of peace that will snap your neck if you fail to join it and also snap your neck if you decide to leave after joining. Belotti is happy with it and so should we. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by lafile(m): 10:48am On Feb 01, 2007 |
@ Belloti I agree with you that we are looking at this thing from a different perspective. Can you please give me a view of your perspective? You state that Islam Only Compels REAL MUSLIMS from deserting the religion. Now i will like to know how Islam defines the term real muslim. Also from your statements 1. Islam does not compel anyone to join it. There are Quranic verses and Hadith to support this. 2. Islam prescribe death sentence for any real muslim that deserted. This too is supported by Quran and Hadith I deduce you mean Islam does not compel any one to join. But if you do, You cannot leave. Am I right? |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 1:10pm On Feb 01, 2007 |
Lafile, oh yeah you are very correct and am sure it wont make much sense to you. But let me give you some insight too. In Sharia Law, Sentences and punishments are not strictly meant to be carried out but all the same were provided for to serve as deterrent. That is why no one has yet being stoned to death in Nigeria and not likely to be soon, Insha Allah. But you guys just read our lips and start to shiver. The idea sound strange to you because you were only getting to know about it while claiming to know Islam very well. Cant you see that now? Too bad |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 3:39pm On Feb 01, 2007 |
belloti: I cringe in shame when i read blatantly arrogant posts from those who think before they speak. No sir! The main reason no one has been stoned as of yet in Nigeria's sharia law is simply because those who implemented such laws PRIMARILY AS A POLITICAL TOOL agaiinst the Obasanjo regime and not necessarily as a sign of piety realised the international ridicule and backlash such 12th century barbarism would bring to Nigeria as a whole! It took the Italian Govt granting Aminat Lawal and her poor child citizenship before she could escape being stoned to death for being raped against her will while the inglorious sharia law "pardoned" her rapist! No one reads the lips of northern hypocrites and shivers, we simply read their lips and hang our heads in shame that no thanks to British misadventure, we have to share the same country with barbarians and those who would rather be stuck in the stone age than move our nation forward! The idea of stoning does not only sound strange to us it sounds preposterous and anachronistic to a 21st century nation aspiring to join the league of technologically advanced nations! It has nothing to do with our lack of islamic knowledge! One last look at your ridiculous post that aims to stand reason on its head. You claim sharia law serves as a detterent? To who? Deterent to the poor women who are raped againts their will? |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by batu: 8:57pm On Feb 01, 2007 |
belloti: @Alhaji (I assume!) Belloti, The statements below are established facts: 1. Demonic secret cults does not compel anyone to join it. They have 'omata declarations' to support this 2. Demonic secret cults prescribe death sentence for any "real cultist" that deserted. This too is supported by 'omata declarations'. Is it not correct then to say that; Islam = Demonic secret cults (?) because of these and other glaring similarities such as emphasis on sex as a powerful tool of power and oppression, violence, etc |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by mrpataki(m): 9:03pm On Feb 01, 2007 |
Na wah oh batu:  |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by mrpataki(m): 9:04pm On Feb 01, 2007 |
@ batu, Please could you give us a link to your citations above. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by barikade: 11:29pm On Feb 01, 2007 |
mrpataki: Me, I no know if links exist for 'omata declarations'. I only heard of the term in aluta days in university among cult members on campus. As for the equation, I don't know if Islam translates into Demonic secret cults. Just curious, though.  |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by batu: 1:35am On Feb 02, 2007 |
mrpataki:  Dear mrpataki,Interesting, you want a web site link to the 'omata declaration', you can also ask for the link or password to secret account of the mafioso. bari_kade: @bari-kade, Well, you possibly heard right, but those you heard it from were probably wanna-be cultist who were just showing off. It means "silence", so you dont "hear" it; you either "see" it or "feel" it. Well, the poser is just what it is, a question. Because the gentleman gave some statement about Islam, and I saw the striking analogy with the "Omata". After all, the is no compulsion to "join" them too and they also prescribe death for any deserter. The same characterise almost all cults, check it out! the aim is total obedience and control of members and to keep secret covered as you can guess. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 10:11am On Feb 02, 2007 |
David you always allow your foolishness get the best of you whe you come out with barrages of unwarranted personal attacks and glorified ignorance of the substances being discussed. Am used to that now, too bad. For Batu and others that seemed lost in the tracks, i tell you striking resemblance abound betwen cults and many other facets of life, particularly in christianity. Okija shrine is almost 100% composed of christian membership, same goes to Ogboni, Eiye, , etc. may be its just coincidental.  Islam is something you all see as a threat and therefore should be condemn and blacklisted. but you only have access to internet forums to vent your irrelevant angers with so much futility. The best thing for you is to go back to school of theology and learn more about the glorious religion of Islam and see where you missed the point. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by barikade: 10:41am On Feb 02, 2007 |
@belloti, belloti: Should I assume that your statement above is mere ranting, or because you know the facts? I don't know much about all cults and would not want to pretend knowledge on some of them; however, if you're contrasting [b]cults and christianity with the allusion to , those who know the facts will see you're being mischievous. At least, I know first hand the issues surrounding - and I know this much that their members never contrast themselves or activities to Christianity. On the other hand, if your concern is about the "Christian" membership in the cults you mentioned, then I can assure that I knew whole loads of Muslims who were members of back in my university days. belloti: Cogent answers are still lacking as to why Islam today is a threat globally. Beyond the internet, why is it that no other group than Muslims are at the core of terrorism especially in Europe? Which group is responsible for the spate of bombings in the UK, and still furthering those threats to security? Theology or none, why is it that no other group of people than Muslims have pledged themselves to annihilate Israel? |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by lafile(m): 10:55am On Feb 02, 2007 |
@Belloti belloti: Sure dont. Cos if you are saying my statement "I deduce you mean Islam does not compel any one to join. But if you do, You cannot leave. Am I right?" is correct, then you mean theres absolutely no freedom in Islam. Therefore anybody born into an islamic family becomes a muslim by force. He has no choice in the matter cos it is not his decision. Can you see why islam is based on compulsion? No wonder muslims generally dont question their faith or scrutinize what they are thought to see if it makes sense. Whats the use? they cannot leave anyway. Islam is a religion based on force not faith. Even if people born as muslims dont believe in the koran, it doesnt matter. they can not un-muslim themselves. chei! |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by barikade: 11:06am On Feb 02, 2007 |
@batu, batu: I agree; the term was usually bantered around by cult wannabes, and we didn't quite take them seriously as they sounded convoluted in the sense that a "declaration" was meant to be a "silence"! I admit I didn't actually know the meaning until now, but it was something we heard quite often on campus; and some of us silly ones initially attributed it to kegites!  |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by mrpataki(m): 11:49am On Feb 02, 2007 |
With all the number of years I spent in University, I never for once actually heard of that word "Omata Declaration", even though I had muslim friends who were great cultist in their times, as well as christians too. Thanks for the knowlegde shared; bari_kade and batu. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 12:52pm On Feb 02, 2007 |
Lafile, i feel oblige to reply you on this. The point is not whether you can or cannot un-islamised yourself but it is wrong to do so. Even in this forum we have mushrikuns who had committed ridda, but they are out there having fun. Your point make sense if we accept that there is no hard drugs anywhere or there is no prostitution or even adultery. Deserting Islam by a muslim is wrong just like Adultery and other wrongful deeds. Havila, for instance, was a muslim or so he said. So can you tell me who bulldozed him into not leaving or even threaten him afterwards. There are a lot of them everywhere but what they did was unacceptable in Islam. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 3:14pm On Feb 02, 2007 |
belloti: Who decides whether it is wrong for me to leave islam or not? Allah himself or his dogs of war? belloti: I stop short of calling you a hypocrite here! Those "mushrikuns" you claim commited ridda and are "out there having fun" are doing so because they are fortunate to be residing in countries where rights to life and religion are guaranteed under the law! Had they been in Afghanistan, Iran, Sokoto or Saudi Arabia, their heads would long have been dangling from allah's stakes! |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 3:42pm On Feb 02, 2007 |
| David you are entitle to your opinion. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by gbadex1(m): 12:39am On Feb 03, 2007 |
It's not an opinion belloti, it's a fact. Live with it. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 1:50am On Feb 03, 2007 |
While those who convert to Islam, such as Cat Stevens, Jemima Khan, and the sons of the Frank Dobson, the former Health Secretary, and Lord Birt, the former BBC Director-General, can publicly celebrate their new religion, those whose faith goes in the other direction face persecution. Mr Hussein, a 39-year-old hospital nurse in Bradford, is one of a growing number of former Muslims in Britain who face not just being shunned by family and community, but attacked, kidnapped, and in some cases killed. There is even a secret underground network to support and protect those who leave Islam. One estimate suggests that as many as 15 per cent of Muslims in Western societies have lost their faith, which would mean that in Britain there are about 200,000 apostates. read the rest of the story. http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/news/Muslim-apostate-UK.html |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 1:56am On Feb 03, 2007 |
Narrated Abu Burda: ", The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.[/color][color=#990000][color=#990000][/color] Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" (Sahih Bukhari 9.58, also Sahih Bukhari 9.271) |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 11:23am On Feb 07, 2007 |
Baby, i am not sure if your hadith is authentic or not but there is actually no teachings in it. Especially, having confirmed to you that Islam truly sanction the death sentence for apostacy. This is an undisputable fact. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by barikade: 12:29pm On Feb 07, 2007 |
@belloti, Please could you enunciate for us what the authentic hadiths are and which ones are not? What denomination of Islam do you belong to among the various sects that exist today? |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 5:16pm On Feb 07, 2007 |
belloti: Or perhaps you have never seen that hadith before? Or maybe you have seen it but choose to ignore it in the spirit of political correctness and to avoid having to answer uncomfortable questions about the true nature of the rasul? Or just maybe there are teachings on it that you "moderate" muslims have tried to block your ears to while your more fanatical brothers are carrying out the instructions to the letter! what makes a hadith fake? The fact that it exposes the prophet for the liar and evil individual that he really was? |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 3:54pm On Feb 16, 2007 |
My people, Authenticity of Hadith has nothing to do with the Holy Prophet, it is basically about the narrators. You know hadith is the narration of the supposed conducts and sayings of the Rasoul and we all know that there are strong tendencies for mistakes and deliberate falsehood. We only pray for Almighty Allah to guide us to the right path, Amen. |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by Nobody: 4:51pm On Feb 16, 2007 |
belloti: I thought you all screamed yourselves hoarse telling us the bible was corrupted? Now even the hadith is corrupted too? |
| Re: Sheikh And The Non-believers by belloti(m): 11:01am On Feb 20, 2007 |
David, corruption is everywhere, am sure you too might be corrupted somehow but the good thing is to asccept that aas a fact and sip through and fish out the authentic. But indeed there are hadith that were wrongly transmitted as indeed the bible that was doctored, but there is no corrupted Quran. There is only one Holy Quran and its the same everywhere word to word. |
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