SHOULD EFCC PROBE CHURCHES?
Dear Friends,

Lately, there has been clamour for EFCC to probe the activities of churches in Nigeria. Oa expected, tempers have been running high, with arguments for and against.

Just yesterday, the General Overseer of Foursquares Gospel Church, Rev.(Dr) Wilson Badejo, said the move is not most welcome.

Should the EFFC be allowed to beam its searchlights on churches, considering the sensitive nature of religion in Nigeria? What would this portend for the church? Will this move sanitise the churhces? Are there cases of corruption and money laundering in churches?

Fellow discussants, let us do justice to this volatile and crucial issue.

In my best Naija accent ~ Yes O!

What will they be probing for? Money laundering, corruption? This needs to be defined first.

TayoD:

What will they be probing for? Money laundering, corruption? This needs to be defined first.

Ask him OH!
how can EFCC even think about probing churches?
or have they forgotten the work they were asked to do?

It's totally unnecessary and uncalled for.Don't be surprise at the end of the day that those behind this moves are actually the christian leaders themselves who are envious of each others achievement.


Take a closer and critical look at the statement credited to the G.O of four square church,then you will agree with me that this call has political undertone more than what we may think with ordinary eye.Don't forget that as at the moment the church of christ are in disunity and this call is an indication of how desperate the church leaders are,just to pull each other down.

It is an illwind that does noone no good!!!! The church of christ is under divine obligation and it's probe is subject to only and only GOD.He knows how to deal with anyone that does His work deceitfully, JEREMIAH 48:10.

So EFCC should not allow itself to be dragged into the politicking going on in the body of christ.The P.F.N should be scrapped with immediate effect.

Well, the aim of the proposed probe is to ensure that cases of money laundering and embezzlements reported in churches can be investigated for prosecution. Many say the church cannot live above the society and its laws. But the other side say churches cannot be probed using worthy standards. But don't we think this scandal would have been avoided had church transactons and operations be above board and beyond suspicion.

I think we really need to thrash this out before it gets out of hands

Hi TayoD,

Why should anything have to be defined? In any ordered society, there are laws subjecting institution that take money from the public to full accountability to the rule of law. And yes, money laundering and corruption are obvious concerns. Money collected by church institutions effectively disappears into a "black hole".

May I remind you that the Bible asks Christians and hence Church to be subject to the rule of law. If churches are collecting and using money according to Biblically mandated principles, how can they fall short of mans laws? What could they possibly have to fear?

Hi Crazykid,

Could you please educate me about how the work the Church was asked to do involves collecting money?


Hi Akintos_o,

Presumably you are aware that "Divine Obligation" subjects Christians/The Church to the secular rule of law. Additionally, God uses the secular state to punish wrongdoers. I find both your reasoning and theology somewhat puzzling


My particular fellowship welcomes any level, degree or number of probes from the authorities under whose jurisdiction we reside  !


"The Law is not for the righteous"

God bless

They should probe all other religious sects as well.

muslims, amorcs, ogbonis etc should not be spared

@TV01,

It is by way of compromise that I even mentioned that EFCC should be allowed to spread its tentacles to the church. Really, the only way they should be allowed in is if a prior investigation leads them to a particular church. They should not be allowed in to start such investigation from the church. For instance, it was recently discovered that a big Hotel lost some money to an accountant who happens to have given a huge chunk of that money to Christ Embassy. Such a discovery could rightly bring EFCC into Christ Embassy to find out what exactly is going on.

While you have quoted legitimate scriptures with respect to the Church being subject to the laws of the State, may I also bring to your remembrance that Paul frowned at the church going to the State (judge) for the purpose of judging between right and wrong. So where is the balance? Let's discuss this as we go along.

Bro' TayoD,

Point taken. The EFCC should not go willy nilly (or for dubious political reasons) into investigating churches. But if the evidence leads them there (as per your example), they should investigate to the full extent of their powers.

Above and beyond EFCC activity, what I am saying is, given the structure and set-up of many church institutions, they should be subject to well defined government imposed laws regarding how they collect and disburse money from the public. And any true Church of the Lord Jesus Christ will have nothing to fear, as transparency should be evident in all our dealings. Will we not have a good report amongst those who are without the church?

Your point about Paul and "judging in the church" is I think a slightly different issue. A dispute between Christians (individually or collectively), is best subject to the Word and discernment of other mature Christians. But mis-application of funds within Churches is of state as well as religious concern.

Take for example the ongoing allegations against the CPA MOG, "Rev King". Should those charges be dealt with by the church? If the Church where to judge and return a guilty verdict, what punishment would they impose? Just like the Jews under the Romans had no right to put anyone to death (I love the Bible, it always aligns perfectly), neither is the Church, charged with imposing sanctions for crimes that are punishable under criminal law. Maybe civil law cases in some instances. Please don't lets creep towards a Christian form of Sharia.

Say on sir,

God bless

_{This is SIMPLY a waste of 'MENTAL ENERGY'.
Question: Do you OFFER your Tithes & Offering to GOD or to Man?
If anyone feels sad that the "Churches" are making money[so to say], that is his/her own opinion.
God will not do for men what men MUST do for themselves.
EFCC was set up to perform a task and I don't understand why it should even be considered on this issue.}We can dodge actions, but never the consequences of such actions.

I believe that any Church, which has nothing shady in its affairs, should not worry about EFCC.
Afterall, If they are dealt with unjustly, The Lord will defend them, oand even exact vengeance on her behalf.

But, is it the same EFCC that has turned a blind eye to the affairs of Chris Uba in Anambra, or Tony Anenih, etc, that we are citing as the ultimate deliverer of justice?

Grouppoint:

I believe that any Church, which has nothing shady in its affairs, should not worry about EFCC.
Afterall, If they are dealt with unjustly, The Lord will defend them, oand even exact vengeance on her behalf.

But, is it the same EFCC that has turned a blind eye to the affairs of Chris Uba in Anambra, or Tony Anenih, etc, that we are citing as the ultimate deliverer of justice?

No no no groupoint, dats not the point, its high time EFCC define and clearly map out its limit and focus on sooo many other corrupt govt. officials.

For pete's sake, what is f""kn wrong with them, waht manner of hezbollah is this one now ooo, i hate hearing things like this.

Hell no, Where do they get off probing churches? A church isn't a "business" per se and isn't withing the juridisction of the EFCC. This is the problem we have in Nigeria, army will do the job of police/lawyer and judge just because they're in authority, nobody knows where their authority ends and someone else's begins.

Nigeria!!!

Have they finished with the 36 states of Nigeria to jump on churches now _{Something's fishy}

EFCC doesn't have the mandate to probe churches, END OF STORY!

There's a seperation of state from religion. I don't think the EFCC should probe church's unless given a GOOD reason, I'm by no means saying that churches are above the law but the EFCC could channel their limited resource to other areas. Here in the U.S I have never heard of the dept of justice deciding to investigate churches unless a church starts getting political , weird (cult-like) or a whistle-blower makes a complaint. As much as I'm pro-EFCC we as a Nation need to be very careful with the power given to them by the constitution, if it gets too powerful we are the same people that will complain cuz they can probe anyone without going thru the proper channel to get authorization.

[/quote][quote author=Radiant link=topic=26846.msg656644#msg656644 date=1160674999]
Nigeria!!!

Have they finished with the 36 states of Nigeria to jump on churches now _{Something's fishy}

ASK THEM O

@ question,capital NO, as in they don't have any right to Probe churches,if they do ,my GOD will probe them.

the only time efcc should be allowed to investigate churches should be when there is a specific report indicating that activities of this particular church violates the criminal code. a blanket probe on ALL churches should not be allowed for any reason.

TV01:

Hi Crazykid,

Could you please educate me about how the work the Church was asked to do involves collecting money?

I want to let you know that every thing done in a church, involves money although in the bible.
Hebrews 13:5-6

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?

Although christ told us in this passage that we should keep our lives free from the love of money, he made this statement very clear and understanding.
The work of the church involves money, that's why christ told us that he will supply all our needs, and he will never leave or forsake us.
so the collection of money in a church, is for the development of the church ie painting, renting of chairs and others. don't think it's a one man business as most people do think.
so i hope i've answered your question.

Its okay if dey dont do fishy thins,
Where r all d moneys paid in church used 4,
Hw many churches run orphanages or give out scholarships 2 student
Chrches arent above d law, so also is d Amorc, Ogbonis, Olumbas, Gurumaraji n all dat,

One thin 4 sure which i know is dat very many churches and pastors will b impounded bt not one catholic church because of its channeling & sectioning n all dat.

Dats my view, '''''''''''' mke una no run disses on me ooohhh

First,I would like to say that the Church of Jesus Christ functions within the state/nation and has willingly subjected itself,based on the Word of God,to the laws of the land.The Church is ,therefore, not lawless.

However,I would not fail to let you know that the Church(The body of Christ),is superior to any state.And the ealrier the state  recognizes this and walks in this wisdom,the better for it.
In Old testament Israel whenever there was a challenge ,the king,the wise ones,called for the prophet, not ecomists,etc. This did not mean the the Prophet disrepected the king.But the prophet was the one who brought the word of God that the state lived by and prospered by.

Now for the state to say it wants to probe the churches, to me that is the begining of disaster for that state.You cannot ask the church where it is getting money from.That is a stupid thing to do.Have you forgotten that the church is made up of individuals who are loaded with money?However,if the church in its transactions breaks the law of the state,there are proper procedures to take to address that.

But just asking for the churches to be probed on the basis that they are getting so much money is dumb.Now someone mentioned Christ Embassy, if a member of Christ Embassy did wrong,does it mean that Christ Embassy did wrong.Why is it that the media in Nigeria celeberated negativism.Have you gotten a clear information about the matter you are talking about, or did you just jump out to blab?
How many times has the media reported on all the poor and homeless children being housed,fed and educated by Christ Embassy? How many times have they reported on the glorious miracles.You don't get to hear all that.A society that runs down good people will pay dearly for it.I thought some people would have learnt their lessons by now, that Christ Embassy is not just a mere church,it is a vision,God's vision.And there is no government or people that can run the church down.However,the church will remain humble.

If you put the word of God to work,it will build you up financially.This prosperity hangs around for so long.But if your prosperity is not from the word of God,it will fly away and leave you broke and wounded.People fought Christ Emabby years ago but the Church keeps getting bigger and more influential, more and more loaded.Does that not teach you a lesson?

People have not seen prosperity yet.Did you not hear that a lady gave her church over $2b? With that kind of money will the church look poor to you? .Was it not Buffet who gave $30b or more to Bill gates?If that was given to his church,will his church look small to you? Please, wake up.A transfer of wealth to the original owner is up and running now,orchestrated by  God Himself. The whole world with it's resources was willed to Abraham and the Church is Abraham's seed.

There is wealth in the church that people have not seen yet.It is being unleashed little by little.We will dominate the airwaves,the internet.We will pump up the Gospel into every earhole and it takes money to do so and the church 's got it.

One thing I will love to leave you with is that if the church was not in this country, it would have been dead and gone.The church is a state preserver.Don't forget this.

Peace!

Why should churches be exempt for investigation

They are some of the biggest criminal maffia organisations in the World!

Does this make any miniscule of sense to anyone?

@lafile,

the only time efcc should be allowed to investigate churches should be when there is a specific report indicating that activities of this particular church violates the criminal code. a blanket probe on ALL churches should not be allowed for any reason.

You have said it rightly as I also indicated in my earlier post. Failing to investigate a church suspected of criminal activities solely because it is a church violates biblical injuctions. This will be like saying the so-called Rev King should be left alone from prosecution just because he is a pastor.

@gospelman,

I do not understand what you mean by the Church being superior to the State. Such a notion is not sustained at all in the scriptures. If anything, the Bible suggests the Church must be subject to the authority of the State. So tell me, who is in a secular sense greater, the one in authority or the one under it?

No one says churches should be probed because they are getting so much money. Why don't you respond to shat people say instead of trading unfounded allegations? What the church does with her money is the church's business and not the State's. But if the way the Church spends its money constitutes a criminal activity with respect to the laws of the State, then the State will be more than justified to address this situation.

I mentioned Christ Embassy legitimately and you cannot prove that what I said is not within the confines of both scripture and the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. A criminal act was carried out within the State, and the proceeds of that criminal act was traced to a Church and you think the State should just look away? Such action will breed lawlessness, since justice will not be served and such a move will emboldene other institutions within the State to do likewise knowing fully well that the State has no moral justification to posecute them as well. Besides, what will keep money launderers and other criminals from setting up a 'church' and using it as a front for their illegal activities?

Also, your argument is very weak regarding neglecting a criminal act just because of some good acts by the church. If that were to be the standard the society goes by, then all criminals will never be prosecuted because they will always have some acts of goodness they can point at to justify their criminal behaviour.

Your references to the church being wealthy is scriptural. However, you need to understand that God is not interested in prosperity for the sake of it. Money in the hands of the church must be money gotten through legitimate and uncorrupted means. If we do not get our money that way, then we are no different from the mafia and gangster out there.

why should EFcc probe the church .who are they ? and what did they want in the church of God?the only judge in the church of God is Jesus Christ.

if they are send to do that ,then they should be prepare for the most in their life cos is like trying to do God work for me.
The church is religion and not a polictic.

Reading through the posts im baffled with the contributions of people oooooooooo. what is the work of EFCC? im one of those that is in support of what the body is doing but going into the houses of the Almighty is a saccrelege.

They are suppose to probe the financial recklesness of our political office holder and not nailing innocent citizens.

If any criminal act is suspected, it is not the church that has to be investigated. It's the person involved. Be it the pastor a floor member. How can one dig into the treasury of a Church?

Does this apply to all churches including the Catholic, Protestant and the rest of 'em?

We never recover from Sharia na dis one deh wan start. NONSENSE!!!

I can understand the setiments attached to this issue, but I hope we can all jettison our prejudices and focus on the truth.

Apart from the fact that I find no basis for the church being above the law in the scriptures, I really do not see why a church's affairs cannot be investigated if there is a legitimate need for it.

Can you imagine the case I mentioned earlier about the guy who stole millions from his company and gave it to his church. Think of what would happen if the investigators just tell us "well, we traced the money to this church, and since it is God's house, we can not do anything about it." How would that sound to your intelligence and your conscience? Won't that tell rogues that all they need to do is set up a church, steal some money and give it to the church. Then go back and get a percentage of that sum from the Pastor. Afterall, when Ceasar traces the money to the church, they will only back-off and say it is in God's hands now!

If Ceasar does that, then he ceases to be God's servant who is meant to ensure justice and punish evil doers as the Bible said it should. Please let us look at it from that perspective and stop fuming over a legitimate request.

Tayo (D)

I agree with you that the govt should not look away when cases of corruption are proven in the church. Sad as it is, the truth is many churches are involved in money laundering, misappropriation and corrupt practices. Were churches what they should be, we won't be talking about investigation in the first place.

Having said that, I think the onus is on churches to undergo internal cleansing. The fact is the society is aware of those scandals we so desperately want to hide. Instead of waiting for govt to do it for us, we should start the process of self-cleansing.

My worry is how many churches would subject themselves to correction and rebuke by higher authorities they subscribe to? If there can just get around to correct themselves, the coming hammer would not fall on them.

I rest my case

I sincerely look forward to hearing what they find.

I genuinely believe that there is a lot going on within many churches, both financially and otherwise, that would sicken many of their members.

THe Church again! A very obvious target.But who will probe the sango worshipper and dare his deity or the witches ,wizards and memebers of other religion.Let me tell you that the EFCC people will rather resign than take up the assigment.

But na church now,civil people you can talk to who wont cut off your head.carry on the probe o!