On 23 May 1999, the Sunday Times (UK)
carried an astonishing article entitled 'Jungle reveals traces of Sheba's
fabled kingdom' . Over the next few days many other papers followed suit.
Even the Daily Mail one day later asked "Was the Queen of Sheba really a
Black woman from Nigeria?" As the evidence emerged, however, the queen of
Sheba link proved to be hype. The real
Sheba was an Ethiopian queen who lived
three thousand years ago. What was
undeniable, however, was that the
southern Nigerian rainforests had an even more amazing secret to tell. The secret
was this.During the Middle Ages, Africans built by far the largest city
the world had ever seen. In size,
this city dwarfed Baghdad, Cairo,
Cordoba and Rome. The
achievement was on a scale even
bigger that that of the Great Pyramid of Giza, Africa's most
celebrated monument.

What evidence nailed the claim that Queen of Sheba was not a Nigerian? It has to be part of the story, or else we don't know who to believe.

Correct

I take it to mean you believe she could have been Nigerian based on the Ijebu earthworks and the claims surrounding it?

Radoillo:
I take it to mean you believe she could have been Nigerian based on the Ijebu earthworks and the claims surrounding it?

My thought exactly, until proven otherwise by another Sheba's tomb or earthwork somewhere.

madridguy:
Correct

Thanks for seeing in my ways.

I am afraid the only history we are capable of telling in glowing colours is different shades of 'How Europe Spoil Africa Beyond Reconstruction'.

Beyond that is the bottomless pit and forbidden thoughts.

Noise without answers.

absoluteSuccess:


My thought exactly, until proven otherwise by another Sheba's tomb or earthwork somewhere.

I see. I've read many write-ups on the Ijebu earthworks, but I don't know if there are any radiocarbon dates for the site yet. Does anyone have any idea how old the site is. Obtaining dates would be a first step towards showing that the site was associated with the Queen of Sheba.

Radoillo:


I see. I've read many write-ups on the Ijebu earthworks, but I don't know if there are any radiocarbon dates for the site yet. Does anyone have any idea how old the site is. Obtaining dates would be a first step towards showing that the site was associated with the Queen of Sheba.

Thats the way to go, we can't assume that a lot has been written about the place already.

Some of us should be for traditinal claims no matter how far fetched, then empirical studies should follow.

What could make tradition favour the Queen of Sheba for instance, and what could make the tradition a hype?

I don't think foreigners are in best position to teach us about us, and the hope ends where we can't dug our history from heap of ruins.

Some Islamic scholars believe the story connecting Queen Bilikis to africa.

absoluteSuccess:


Thanks for seeing in my ways.

I am afraid the only history we are capable of telling in glowing colours is different shades of 'How Europe Spoil Africa Beyond Reconstruction'.

Beyond that is the bottomless pit and forbidden thoughts.

Noise without answers.

madridguy:
Some Islamic scholars believe the story connecting Queen Bilikis to africa.

The quran did not state categorically where the queen came from, but that some jinns in the service of king Solomon told him about Sheba and moved her throne to Jerusalem.

When she was about to step into king solomon's court, she raised her skirt thinking the floor was covered with water. Unknown to her, it was glass that the floor is made from.

I dont know if it is God telling a story or the prophet, they too cannot tell where the woman was from, or they choose to keep mum in order not to help another to their history?

You're correct but so many scholars believe she was buried here in Africa.

absoluteSuccess:


The quran did not state categorically where the queen came from, but that some jinns in the service of king Solomon told him about Sheba and moved her throne to Jerusalem.

When she was about to step into king solomon's court, she raised her skirt thinking the floor was covered with water. Unknown to her, it was glass that the floor is made from.

I dont know if it is God telling a story or the prophet, they too cannot tell where the woman was from, or they choose to keep mum in order not to help another to their history?

absoluteSuccess:
Thats the way to go, we can't assume that a lot has been written about the place already.

Some of us should be for traditinal claims no matter how far fetched, then empirical studies should follow.

What could make tradition favour the Queen of Sheba for instance, and what could make the tradition a hype?

I don't think foreigners are in best position to teach us about us, and the hope ends where we can't dug our history from heap of ruins.

I don't want it to be left to foreigners, of course. We have history and archaeology departments in our Nigerian universities, and it is mostly Nigerians who are the professors in those departments. They should go to work and get us dates for the Eredo. By comparing such dates with Jewish and Solomonic chronology, we can then determine if the site is old enough to be associated with the Queen of Sheba, or matches the Solomonic timeline.

You mentioned something about a 'tomb'. Does the Eredo contain a tomb?

Radoillo:


I don't want it to be left to foreigners, of course. We have history and archaeology departments in our Nigerian universities, and it is mostly Nigerians who are the professors in those departments. They should go to work and get us dates for the Eredo. By comparing such dates with Jewish and Solomonic chronology, we can then determine if the site is old enough to be associated with the Queen of Sheba, or matches the Solomonic timeline.

You mentioned something about a 'tomb'. Does the Eredo contain a tomb?

Yes it does. It is said that women don't get to reach this place, (the tomb).

People throng the place for prayers. Why prohibit women? I can't get it.

I think it is Hegel that said Africans are ahistoric people, don't expect much if you are not the one with hands on the plough.

madridguy:
You're correct but so many scholars believe she was buried here in Africa.

Africa is a vast continent, the islamic scholars wont claim to know more than Rasul.

absoluteSuccess:
Thats the way to go, we can't assume that a lot has been written about the place already.

Some of us should be for traditinal claims no matter how far fetched, then empirical studies should follow.

What could make tradition favour the Queen of Sheba for instance, and what could make the tradition a hype?

I don't think foreigners are in best position to teach us about us, and the hope ends where we can't dug our history from heap of ruins.

What do you expect from a muslim dominated village?

What I don't get is why people claim it's the largest earthwork or call it a wall
Anyway I'm made to believe that the "Queen of Sheba" attachment is a new one. The name original to the moat is "Sungbo"

Queen of Sheba wasn't even childless, her son is the patriarch of the Habesha people. Yet they don't even know of their Great Mother's works deep in the West African forest?
It all reeks of foul play

Radiocarbon dating has so far established that the buildings and walls were more than 1,000 years old. Dates such as 800 AD have been given as a good ball-park figure.

http://www.blackhistorystudies.com/shop/the-great-mighty-wall/article-about-eredo/

@ Radoillo

macof:


http://www.blackhistorystudies.com/shop/the-great-mighty-wall/article-about-eredo/

@ Radoillo

800 AD?

Oh, well. We know Solomon was King in Israel between c. 970 BC and c. 931 BC. The Queen of Sheba must have lived in that same period. If the 800 AD date for the Eredo is correct, then there's something like a 1,700-year gap (if not more) between the Queen of Sheba and the Eredo.

macof:


What do you expect from a muslim dominated village?

What I don't get is why people claim it's the largest earthwork or call it a wall
Anyway I'm made to believe that the "Queen of Sheba" attachment is a new one. The name original to the moat is "Sungbo"

Queen of Sheba wasn't even childless, her son is the patriarch of the Habesha people. Yet they don't even know of their Great Mother's works deep in the West African forest?
It all reeks of fowl play

Muslims are humans too, and they have keen scholars from time. The prophet of Islam encouraged learning and the University culture owes its unset to Islamic scholars.

Even the name 'Yoruba' was preserved by a scholar at Timbuctu, and it was familiar to Sokoto Islamic scholars, from where the west adopted it as emphonimous name for our people.

Our history might be all figured out, to you, but some sherds may still turn up from any shroud source. Its all about knowledge, not where it comes from.

This might interest you also if you mind considering diverse view on the character:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

macof:

http://www.blackhistorystudies.com/shop/the-great-mighty-wall/article-about-eredo/
@ Radoillo

This thread is about the two side of the story, suffice to say the one on frontpage has done justice to the question of architectural achievement.

The purview of this thread aim to focus on tradition sorrounding the individual claim to have built it, by the way, maybe answers will manifest, as in maybe the moat itself was built later by her kindred in her remembrance, as a gift to the woman of history.

None of the standing collosal statue in contemporary time was built by the icons they depict.

My bible told me that when the queen of sheba heard of the wisdom of King solomon in her 'land', she came to test his wisdom.

Where was this land of sheba located? Jesus, talking about the queen of Sheba said she came from 'the end of the world'

Using the logic of the old world, 'end of the world' is the most southerly region culminating at the sea, just like Epe.

It cost the bible writers nothing to tell us Solomon married an Ethiopian woman.

Moses married a beautiful Ethiopian woman, Miriam his sister was angry and she came down with leprosy.

I think Ethiopia (abyssinia, habesha) are not obscure people in bible times if the very opening tale of the bible and Moses invoke havilla, Gihon, Ethiopia.

Moses was 600 years or so from Solomon. What difference would it make?

And for those blessed with deep thought, here come some ancient crypts.

Why was the bible silent on the land of sheba, when sheba was so essential to establishing the historical repute of king solomon?

Why is it that the number of the gift of gold given to solomon by sheba (666) is the number of the mark of the beast to the writer of revelation?

Why did the word 'Esu beleke' resemble biliki su? Aso Esubeleke in Yoruba means clothes that are sexually suggestive or style of clothes worn by Esu Beleke.

Meanwhile, a Yoruba folksong establish beleke as the father of Esu: beleke beleke o, BABA ESU beleke.

That means Esu has a father, Obe or beleke.

She has a proper name too, Adi. Hence the Yoruba don't feed Esu with Adi because Adi ni oruko iya esu.

Elsewhere it is said 'Obe b'elesu, b'esu: omo t'ori ogun waye'. Obe is identical with Beleke or 'Leke, meaning victor, his child (Esu) came to the world as a result of the war.

SUGBO is a contraption of Esu gbo, which means 'The Great Black'.

You've probably got this all figured out.

Nothing wrong with an alternative hypothesis, but at least the proponent of an alternative hypothesis should be able to show why he believes the already existing hypothesis is wrong, and his own correct.

There's already a consensus in mainstream academia that the Kingdom of Sheba was the same as the ancient Southern Arabian and Northern Ethiopian Kingdom of Saba centred in what is today Yemen. The Kingdom of Saba fits the description for a number of reasons:

1. The timeline marches the dating for King Solomon in Israelite chronology.

The Kingdom of Saba was already flourishing by c.930 BC - around the time we know King Solomon was on the throne in Jerusalem.

2. The Bible mentions that the Queen of Sheba brought gifts of spices, gold and precious stones.

Again, this fits with what is known about the Arabian kingdom of Saba. The Kingdom is known to have acquired great wealth from a monopoly of the spice trade through Southern Arabia. So, it makes sense that this spice-rich kingdom would present King Solomon with spices.

Also, archaeological work on the colonies controlled by the Kingdom of Saba in Northern Ethiopia has revealed extensive gold mines mined from antiquity by the Sabeans. So in addition to its riches in spices, this kingdom was also rich in gold.

3. The names of the Biblical Kingdom and the Kingdom of Saba march one another

Hebrew is a somewhat 'coarse' language. For example, 's' in Arabic occurs often in Hebrew as 'sh'.

eg: Shalom (Hebrew) : Salam (Arabic)
Ishmael (Hebrew) : Ismail (Arabic)

As 'sh' becomes 's', so also in many (though not all) cases, the Hebrew 'e' becomes the Arabic 'a'.

eg: El (Hebrew) : Allah (Arabic)
Melech (Hebrew) : Malik (Arabic)
Shem (Hebrew) : Sam (Arabic).

Following these rules of sound change, the name of the Biblical Kingdom (Sheba) is a perfect march for the name of the ancient Yemenite Kingdom (Saba). In fact, the Arabic name (as well as Qu'ranic name) for Sheba is simply Saba - the name of the ancient Yemenite Kingdom.

4. Considering your reference to 'the ends of the earth':

This phrase also fits the position of Saba in the southern Arabian region of Yemen. Beyond the Southern Arabian peninsula where Saba is situated you have the Red Sea on the west and the Indian Ocean on the south and east. On the other side of both water bodies are the little known (from a biblical point of view) Indian and Subsaharan African subcontinents. So in a sense, Southern Arabia was at the 'ends of the world' from the view point of someone in ancient Israel.

I see what you tried to do with the name Bilikisu. Cool and impressive. But perhaps I should remind you that the name of the queen of Sheba is not really known. The Bible which was the first book to tell her story did not give us her. The Qu'ran, too, gave us no name. The first name ascribed to her came from Ethiopian sources, and the name given was Makeda. At a later period in history, Muslim scholars came up with the name Bilqis, which scholars believe was derived from the Hebrew word 'Pilegesh', meaning "concubine" (Because she was believed to have been Solomon's concubine.)

It is instructive that it is by the Muslim name (Bilqis -Bilikisu) that she has become known among the Ijebus, who began to convert to Islam in the mid-19th century. I don't think it is a far-fetched speculation to posit that the Ijebu who had lost the original account of how their ancestors built the defensive earthwork around their kingdom in about the ninth century after Christ, began to turn for explanation to the newly acquired religion of Islam and the story of Bilqis (Bilikisu).

In summary: the evidence in favour of Saba is very strong, from chronology to linguistics, to biblical evidence. And anyone who intends to propose an alternative theory has to make an equally strong (if not stronger) case.

Hm, Such an impressive communicator @Radoillo. I have it figured out? Ahaha, I am not too good to do that. Who am I?

But, there are some readily available information in public domains, and some that are lost to the informed public.

Not until the Rosetta stone, hieroglyph was a mass of inscriptions without much meaning and little was known of ancient Egypt as encrypted in that lithurgy.

My brother, there are secrets, beyond the visibly apparent are secrets conveyed. Of course I'm not alluding to metaphysics, but logography.

Saba is a name that is ever present in Yoruba: there is Ido-Saba in my hometown, there is 'Sabe' in 'Sabeans', maybe 'Sabe' is a variant of Saba, (if I'm oblige to assume) ancient names hardly change.

Now look at this, what the Yoruba call 'igunuko' is what Tapa call 'sabako', 'Saba' or Eso. Thus, Igunu is Saba.

'Ko' stands for a description that pertains with Saba. Now why am I saying all this? There are secrets obstructed by what we know that we don't know.

I see what you tried to do with the name
Bilikisu. Cool and impressive. But perhaps I
should remind you that the name of the
queen of Sheba is not really known. The
Bible which was the first book to tell her
story did not give us her. The Qu'ran, too, gave us no name. The first name ascribed
to her came from Ethiopian sources, and
the name given was Makeda. At a later
period in history, Muslim scholars came up
with the name Bilqis, which scholars believe
was derived from the Hebrew word 'Pilegesh', meaning "concubine" (Because
she was believed to have been Solomon's
concubine.)

I believe that 'pilegesh', is a false etymology. That is, lame Hebrew trying to steal from Arab a name not originally available to them in earliest account.

If Sam is Shem, Bilqis is probably absent in Hebrew, which was discontinued for long until recent effort at revival with Arabic aid.

Must all Arabic words and names have hebrew source? If so, pilegesh runs contrary to shared phonology.

2.The Bible mentions that the Queen of Sheba brought gifts of
spices, gold and precious stones . Again, this fits with what is known about
the Arabian kingdom of Saba. The Kingdom
is known to have acquired great wealth
from a monopoly of the spice trade
through Southern Arabia. So, it makes
sense that this spice-rich kingdom would present King Solomon with spices. Also, archaeological work on the colonies
controlled by the Kingdom of Saba in
Northern Ethiopia has revealed extensive
gold mines mined from antiquity by the
Sabeans. So in addition to its riches in
spices, this kingdom was also rich in gold.

This unconsciously obstruct what can be possible, you mean Yoruba can't afford Seba's gift to Solomon in ancient times or whatever? Old Yoruba was rich.

There are spices (isura) and wura, (gold) in Yoruba language, why is it impossible for a Yoruba Seba to afford this if they can construct the moat?

Which is easier, the moat or the gift? Who say it has to come from Yemen?

No.

She was from Sheba

So you earnestly believe Ijebu is a stronger candidate for Sheba than Saba is?

Wow. Okay.

When I was a kid, I convince mum to allow me go to her village by myself. It was not easy for her cause I was just 12. So others encouraged her, and I quoted a scripture to them that The Lord will preserve my going out and coming in. I left Sango for a remote village I left at age 7.

During my stay, the disciples of ATP came to town. In fact, I was in the village just to discover Yoruba wisdom, because of this mission I paid rapt attention. The messangers were about 4, and we were playing that evening when they visited my village.

When the messangers got to our homestead, they hit their gong with iron nail and made a song that attract our attention. All of us kids became spellbond. Yours sincerely went close to this harmless maids in white. I want to know something.

The song began quietly with kenkele rhythm thus:

Taphe Owheno, ago ago owheno ago. 2x.

Myself, bodunrin, tetede, ramoni, ganiu (silliest, funniest comedian) kehinde, and some other midgets of a kind were following these maids already.

Everyone in my village knew me as a staunch culture enthusiast, I was the Karetta Master and the chief 'rabble rouser' of the village and was all over the place. I am the parrot. They call me Tanyin-vy.

I was a midget at 12.

As we were following the maids across each of the 7 houses in our compound, I discovered that I have learn their song by heart, and unknown to me, a secret of ages has been passed to me by so doing.

I will share the song with whoever can see beyond the ordinary.

As the maids go from house to house, they met elders one after the other, and they deliver an ageless message to them by bowing down their head to the ground on their knees. They chant the following words...

Ibalufon iba iba,
O betu o betu omo ire.
Ibalufon iba iba,
O betu o betu omo ire.

Sungbo ni o ko ire,
okoiree dele o.
Gbeji ni o ko ire,
o ko iree dele o.

Iba Oluwa Oluwa,
mo gboisa Oluwa de.

I learn the song that day following those maids, and I began to ask, who was Sungbo, who was Gbeji?

I later discovered that Sungbo is a woman of Eredo, and Gbeji got to me when I visited Ileba just to know the place exist.

Gbeji is the next compound to Ileba at Ado, called Iga Gbeji. I think its a purposeful disambiguation or a misarrangement of Jigbe, an old form of Eji Ogbe.

The word of the song salute Obalufon, it says 'you will sire a blessed child', it says 'Sungbo says you will encounter blessings, with valuables you will journey back home.'

Now the last verse is 'iba oluwa oluwa, mo gboisa oluwa de' meaning 'hallow the Lord (of) Lords, here I am with the Lord's worship.

This song is an ancient song of prophecy, we may be a people of prophecy. It alludes to Lord of Lords, and thats monotheism.

Funny enough, these maids are not Yoruba, they were Egun, but their religion is Dudua. On the second day, the maids swept all our compound, then the wives serve them meals and they freshen-up to go.

We followed them to the point where the path continue to ileba (farm) through Igbonla to Ado.

Hey, I have a question. It's not really related to this topic.

What does Oke Eri mean in Yoruba?

And why was omo-noah-bi changed to omoluabi?

IlekeHD:
No.

She was from Sheba

When there is a nice tale of romance, and the actors are not in the act of retelling it, it falls to disuse.

New claimants will surface to lay claim to it with time. Nature abhors vacuum.

the credit will later be institutionalized around the claimants, and people will believe the claimants to be the real actors, owing to the power of 'institution'.

Should a new fact finder come along, the same will be misunderstood, especially by minds given to institutions.

institutions establish claims around 'available possible claimants' and not neccesarily forgotten real actors.

An actor is forgotten as soon as part of his deeds becomes forgotten before 'institutionalizing' become a fad. Out of season makes for decadence.

As for me, I go with tradition, because it forms the bedrock of every known institution.

Folk stories favours whoever write it first. The actual talemakers may be write-off if disadvantaged at writing.