In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Corinthians 9:13),
provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful.

In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy.
The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience.

The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585.

In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom.
The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30).

As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century.
English law very early recognized the tithe, as in the reigns of Athelstan, Edgar, and Canute before the Norman Conquest.
In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285.
Tithes are of three kinds:

predial, or that derived from the annual crops;

mixed, or what arises from things nourished by the land, as cattle, milk, cheese, wool;

and personal or the result of industry or occupation.

Predial tithes were generally called great tithes, and mixed and personal tithes, small tithes.

Natural substances having no annual increase are not tithable, nor are wild animals. When property is inherited or donated, it is not subject to the law of tithes, but its natural increase is.
There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or have obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope.

At first, the tithe was payable to the bishop, but later the right passed by common law to parish priests. Abuses soon crept in. The right to receive tithes was granted to princes and nobles, even hereditarily, by ecclesiastics in return for protection or eminent services, and this species of impropriation became so intolerable that the Third Council of Lateran (1179) decreed that no alienation of tithes to laymen was permissible without the consent of the pope. In the time of Gregory VIII, a so-called Saladin tithe was instituted, which was payable by all who did not take part personally in the crusade to recover the Holy Land. At the present time, in most countries where some species of tithes still exist, as in England (for the Established Church), in Austria, and Germany, the payment has been changed into a rent-charge. In English-speaking countries generally, as far as Catholics are concerned, the clergy receive no tithes. As a consequence, other means have had to be adopted to support the clergy and maintain the ecclesiastical institutions (see CHURCH MAINTENANCEhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03761b.htm), and to substitute other equivalent payments in lieu of tithes. Soglia (Institut, Canon, II, 12) says "The law of tithes can never be abrogated by prescription or custom, if the ministers of the Church have no suitable and sufficient provision from other sources; because then the natural and divine law, which can neither be abrogated not antiquate, commands that the tithe be paid." In some parts of Canada, the tithe is still recognized by civil law, and the Fourth Council of Quebec (1868) declared that its payment is binding in conscience of the faithful.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03761b.htm

The proper support of church edifices and church institutions, as well as of the clergy who minister in them, has always been both a necessity and a problem. As the Church of Christ is a visible organization, it must embrace a visible priesthood, worship, and temples. These must be maintained. As a consequence, the Church must acquire property both movable and immovable, and this she cannot obtain without a corresponding generosity on the part of the faithful. To pretend that the Church should be utterly deprived of property, is not only an error, but also an absurdity. In the Old Dispensation, the Jewish priesthood were put in possession of certain towns all through Israel, and by the Mosaic Law they received a portion of various sacrifices offered in the Temple. The magnificent Temple itself was a gift of the kings of Israel, and its maintenance was provided for partly by royal munificence, partly by the offerings of the people. The Temple had its treasury or corbona. By Divine command, as we read in Scripture, the Aaronic clergy received firstfruits, tithes, and other contributions towards their support.


Nor was there less recognition of the general principle in the New Testament. We are told that Christ and His Apostles had a common purse for the defraying of their expenses. That this information comes to us only incidentally, through the narration of an event bearing no direct relation to it, shows that the Evangelist presumes the reader to take it for granted that there was a common purse for the expenses of Christ and His disciples.

The Acts of the Apostles portray to us the fervour of the first Christians, who sold their lands and laid their proceeds at the feet of the Apostles that they might employ them for the needs of the nascent Church. Along with the support of the poor and the widow and the orphan, would also necessarily be included the sustentation of the clergy and the defraying of the expenses connected with the worship of God. Christ in sending forth His disciples to preach told them to accept what was necessary for their support from the people to whom they ministered, basing it on the general principle that the labourer is worthy of his hire (Luke 10:7); Saint Paul states (1 Corinthians 9) that it is Christ's command that the faithful give temporal sustenance to the clergy. While reminding the Corinthians that he himself has been no charge or burden to them, he takes occasion to inculcate on them the duty of supporting their pastors. "If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great matter if we reap your carnal things? Know you not that they who work in the holy place, eat the things that are of the place; and that they that serve the altar, partake with the altar? So also the Lord ordained that they who preach the Gospel, should live by the Gospel(1 Corinthians 9:11, 13-14). [/color]Connected with this contribution towards the support of the clergy, we find Saint Paul also alluding to the similar duty of helping the poor. In the fifteenth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans he states that contributions had been made in Macedonia and Achaia for the support of the poor in Jerusalem, and that he is on his way to that city to bring the contributed relief [color=#990000](Romans 15:25-28). In like manner (1 Timothy 5) he speaks of the Church supporting the widows. The Apostles in fact, as we learn from the Acts, charged the deacons with the ministry to the temporal wants of the poor. The Church has always been mindful of this conjoining of the support of the clergy and of church institutions with that of the poor and suffering, and hence the regulations for setting apart some of the income of holders of benefices and the employment of church moneys for the relief of the helpless and the indigent, the widows, the orphans, and the sick.

Dont see tithing as a religious obligation. The tithe u pay if for ur own upliftment. God gave u for example $100 and u 're required to pay only $10 as tithe. Is it too much?

In the 1st instance the source of the $100 is God. However u got it is only a means he used. When u give him 10% of what he has given to u he multiplies that 10% and opens doors for u. Apart from financial blessings u'll enjoy God's favour every where u go.

If u're not a tither try tithing from today. The tithes u pay should be 10% of whatever u receive as income and should be given willing and joyfully and see what the lord will do.

The moment u start u'll never stop because u'll enjoy God's favour.

@Bisiriyu,
you made good sense. It's true - when someone has experienced the power and favour that follows tithing, he/she would not be so opposed to the practice.

@Hnd-holder,
Your article is well appreciated - both from a historical point of view and an ecclesiastico-political one. However, you might have been giving us these from a referenced document (an encyclopedia, perhaps?). A few observations:

Hnd-holder:

. . . so in Genesis 28, Jacob is recorded as giving a tithe of all his possessions to the Lord.

(1) In Gen. 28, Jacob made a vow of tithing (verse 22), but I don't read anywhere else that he fulfilled his vow. Yet, I don't disavow that he most probably might have done so; it's just that the chapter only records his vow, not the fulfillment.

(2) Tithing predated the Mosaic law - and I'm glad that you pointed that out in your piece. This perhaps helps me understand that Abraham was not under the Law; and if he was spoken of as "Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Rom. 4:16), I don't think there's reason to believe that tithing is an evil practice for Christians today. Abraham gave tithes even before the Mosaic Law was enacted.

(3) Tithes and taxes are not to be mixed up. Taxes paid today to civil governments are recognized in the NT as a legitimate practice for Christians (Rom. 13:6-7); but they are not the same thing as tithes spoken of in the Bible, especially as the latter is often in regards to worship.

(4) Then, of course, tithing does not serve the purpose of the pastor's ego-expenses as is commonly supposed by many and as sadly displayed by some unwise pastors in lavish spending. The widows and less privileged come under the use of tithes.

Thank you for taking the effort to share these very inspiring reads. Blessings.

Hi 4get_me,

Hope you are well, apologies for the delay.

"Curse on the Church"
Do I mean God's "elect/chosen/set apart ones"? No. I mean the Institutionalised, corporate man made religion that masquerades as Christianity.

The 1 Samuel 8 narrative clearly shows consequences when men reject the Lord as their King and want to be like the other nations. Yet another thread   .

I take your points on Communion and the Love feast.

As for Law & Grace. I also believe you are mistaken, but we are still talking, so no probs.

God bless

4get me, I thought you were away?

Abraham gave a tithe once. There is nothing to suggest it was a lifetime practice. Even if it was, like Jacob, he took it upon himself to do so.

Tithing as part of the law was given to the Jews for specific purposes. Said law has now been done away with. Christians give.

Like I said before, maintaining that it is not obligatory and then saying it should be done, sounds to me like jumping through hoops to justify what is probably a traditional position.

The reason I hate it is because when preached as demanded by God it is blasphemy and binds the ignorant. Additionally, enforcing it by reference to the OT, is a perverse way of re-introducing the law. Attempting to be justified by the law means you fall from grace.

So, not only are you not cursed if you don't tithe, you are putting yourself back under the law and therefore abide under wrath if you do!

I appreciate your time Sir, please don't take any of this the wrong way.

God bless

There is even no record that Jacob ever gave the tithe that he promised. There is no record that he gave tithes at any other time.

If those who claim that "tithing" is for today say that they are following what the Bible says, then why don't they also follow waht the Bible says that they should share the tithes with orphans, widows, strangers and that sometimes they should spend the tithe money on whatever their own hearts desire including strong drink? Why is that part of the Bible (Deut 14:22ff.) not being followed --- especially as it relates to tithes?

Hello TV01,

I've had a few moments off work so I could spend time online. God's "elect/chosen/set apart ones" are called Christians - and all who believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour constitute the Church in God's eyes. There may be many expressions of Christianity (denominations, if you please); but nowhere will you find a curse placed on the Church as you have done.

The Church may not be perfect in her experiences, but does that merit a curse? Do you know what you're talking about? Even when you come to Rev. 2 & 3, you'll not find any church there cursed inspite of the grievious evils that Christ protested against among them. Try not reading God's word with a fundamentalist spectacles (no, I'm not being sly or bitter).

In 1 Samuel 8, Israel rejected a theocratic government in favour of a democracy; but what follows was not a curse or the consequences of a curse. There are so many examples in Scripture showing how God shows His displeasure towards His people for their rebellion; but what you call a curse is never called that in God's word. God chastices His people; but a curse is a very different thing, unless you deliberately want to read it into God's word where it does not appear.

Communion and Love Feast - wow! I thought you'd disagree. Not so many people see the difference. Great.

If I do have the time I might post something about economies of Law and Grace - don't know how my schedules turn out in the next few days.

Blessings.

4get me,

Agreed on your first 2 sentences.
But not everything that labels itself "Christianity" is.
And while I don't subscribe to any denomination (in fact, I would go as far as to suggest most are outright apostate!), I know that some of those within are God's people.

1 Samuel 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.

It was God the Israelites were rejecting, not theocracy, democracy or any other kind of government. And the consequences are clearly outlined. It clearly evident in todays man-made traditions, from "Popery" to the "MOG" syndrome.

I see (mostly young & single) people working themselves into the ground for "Gods work". They are not and it is not. They are simply being chewed up by a man-made religious system,. That is what the narrative of 1 Samuel 8 speaks too.

Why wouldn't I agree? It's clearly outlined. I'm not at loggerheads with you, and as ever I appreciate your scholarship.

Speak soon.

God bless

@Enigma,

You're right about Jacob's vows; I haven't read it anywhere that he fulfilled his vows; but I don't necessarily take the view that he might not have done so - I'm still searching (I make mistakes because I'm human like everyone else).

However, on tithing, you know where your complaints are coming from? Let me share -

(1) you probably have not experienced the power and favour that follow tithing

(2) you haven't taken the time to study those verses carefully

(3) you really don't know what goes on in many tithing churches.

In reverse order - my local church does not enforce tithing; it's up to each member to tithe and let God prove Himself. . . and we have seen Him done so many times. Second, our leaders have a sense of financial accountability and integrity. Third, they are the least funded - and more than anything else, tithe money is used in caring for the less privileged in and outside our local church:

         (i) widows (not many of them in our local church),
        (ii) less privileged - children who cannot afford school fees, etc.
       (iii) families who are not able to sustain themselves daily;
       (iv) then orphans, poor folks,
        (v) and also contributing financially to other churches for evangelism and prison outreaches

Take time to study those verses on tithing - God did not command that every tithe be spent on strong drink. "Whatever you soul lusteth after" is not a command. Do what you want to do - suck the bottle of a strong drink if that's what your soul lusteth after; but try not strenuosly seek to enforce it on others. Deut. 14:26 does not command that you spend your tithe money on booze; check it out again.

Christians don't follow the dictates of their souls - rather, they walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16). A soulish man is a carnal or natural man; and such a man does not receive the things of the Spirit (Rom. 8:7 & I Cor. 2:4).

TV01, I'll pop out briefly and then back to answer your post.

Thing is that I Samuel 8 does not indicate a curse - don't stretch it to that. And for theocracy, what does it mean if not that God is the King of such a government - the Government of God's people by God Himself? Just check the meaning of the terms.

I think the simple thing to do is just take it as the Bible reads - God sent a solemn protest to the Israelites through Samuel; but He did not curse them. If He did, please give me the verse.

Regards.

Seek first the kingdom of God every other things shall be added for thee. You are only talking about tithe, we know that it is only in Given can you receive. not only when you tithe. Man must not leave by bread alone.

4get_me

You should concentrate on debating issues rather than pointing fingers. As it is you made so many assumptions: "have not experienced the power etc of tithing", "haven't taken time to study verses carefully", "don't know what goes on in many tithing churches". You could not be more wrong on all of those!!!

It is precisely because I have been there n done that and have discovered the truth of what the Bible says on this issue that I maintain the stand that I do ---- i.e. that the modern teaching of "tithing" is a lie (whether deliberate or indeliberate).

Deal with the passage: why do "tithers" not give the tithes to or share with widows, orphans, strangers or spend the money on whatever their hearts desire as directed in Deut. 14:22 ff. BTW you will also find similar directions in Leviticus among other places. Are those portions of the Bible irrelevant?

MALACHI CHAPTER 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1     ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2     But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3     And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4     Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5     And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.



6     For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7     ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8     Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10     Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11     And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

12     And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

13     ¶ Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14     Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

The Bible speaking : and he shall purify the sons of Levi, Not NIGERIAN  and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Dear Enigma,

If you felt my fingers pointing at you, no vex. Allow me to say that you're contradicting yourself.

Enigma:

You should concentrate on debating issues rather than pointing fingers. As it is you made so many assumptions: "have not experienced the power etc of tithing", "haven't taken time to study verses carefully", "don't know what goes on in many tithing churches". You could not be more wrong on all of those!!!

I sure have concentrated on debating issues - read my previous posts and see for yourself. If you knew what has been going on in my local church as I outlined earlier, would it not show you knew nothing about us before you assumed that every church you've been to practises the same thing as you levelled against them?

Enigma:

It is precisely because I have been there n done that and have discovered the truth of what the Bible says on this issue that I maintain the stand that I do ---- i.e. that the modern teaching of "tithing" is a lie (whether deliberate or indeliberate).

If "modern teaching of tithing" (whatever that means to you) is a lie, there are two questions you sould please explain to me:

(a) if tithing per se is a "lie", why does the "lie" bless my life and finances?

(b) if tithing is a "lie", does that suppose I'm going straight to hell for tithing? [remember all "liars" shall
have their part in the lake of fire - Rev. 21:8]

Enigma:

Deal with the passage: why do "tithers" not give the tithes to or share with widows, orphans, strangers or spend the money on whatever their hearts desire as directed in Deut. 14:22 ff. BTW you will also find similar directions in Leviticus among other places. Are those portions of the Bible irrelevant?

I've dealt with that earlier - did you not notice, or you simply ignored it for needless repetition? Second, dear friend, did you read my previous posts at all - because I didn't seem to have used Deut. 14:26 as the sole verse on tithing, did I?

4get_me:





(a) if tithing per se is a "lie", why does the "lie" bless my life and finances?

When you give to any one joyfully God will surely bless you not only tithe

Amen, brother!

That is part of the issue. The problem is that for the mere mention of 'tithes' (besides other types of giving), people feel that some of us have qualified as ___!

Tithe is one thing - and giving is no less important, as it is written:

                "I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the
                  words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." -  Acts 20:35

God bless.

4get_me:

That is part of the issue. The problem is that for the mere mention of 'tithes' (besides other types of giving), people feel that some of us have qualified as ___!

4get_me,

Further to your quote above and for a better understanding, could you please illustrate what you mean by "other types of giving".

It's just that your wording seems to suggest that tithing is giving? and that there are different types?

If you equate tithing with giving, I'm not sure there is any point to our discussion, except my question above about "types of giving", as I still maintain that Christians simply give.

Am I missing something or are we not discussing whether there is a biblical injunction to tithe as in a tenth?

God bless

I have never pay tithe to any church.

I enjoy abundant blessing.

When I have I do give to the needy. I do take part in maintaining places of worship, Churches, Mosques and recreation centres. I help in street maintenance. But to give my money to papa and Mama church founders s, ! No way.

4get_me

Your pointing a finger at me does not make me "vex" or even raise an eyebrow. I simply suggest you debate the issues rather than make assumptions about someone else's background, knowledge or experience.

In case my question was not clear: why do individual tihers (I am not referring to their church/assembly/congregation) - the individual - not take their tithe (here we mean the tenth) and share it with orphans, widows, strangers or spend some of the money on whatsoever their hearts desire as commanded in Deuteronomy 14.

If you equate "tithe" with "giving" (see e.g. II Corinthians 9:6ff) which is what me and TV01 and Hndholder and others advocate, perhaps this discussion is ended then?

Thus to repeat TV01's question: is "tithing" the same thing as "giving"?

If not, then why do individual tithers not share the tithe with widows, orphans, strangers and why should they not sometimes spend it on whatever their hearts desire?

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, saith the Lord of hosts, that if i may not open up the windows, and pour ye out such a blessing that there will not be room enough to recieve it."

virozuru:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, saith the Lord of hosts, that if i may not open up the windows, and pour ye out such a blessing that there will not be room enough to recieve it."

   

Why is it that only that part of Malachi was quotableBecause it has to do with food. You are not a LevittThe message refers to Levitt|_

"3     And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness"

Hi TV01,

My apologies if I've been really hasty in my replies, and I hope you didn't imagine that I was being upset with you - not at all. You can't imagine the fun in working and playing at the same time. . . lol. Fortunately, I get breaks quite often; and I don't complain when I have to work through the night, as is often the case.

TV01:

It's just that your wording seems to suggest that tithing is giving? and that there are different types?

If you equate tithing with giving, I'm not sure there is any point to our discussion, except my question above about "types of giving", as I still maintain that Christians simply give.

Nope, my wording does not suggest what you might have read. There are various types of giving in both the OT and NT. As far as tithing is not condemned in the NT, there's no need to pretend that it is. Second, when you say "Christians simply give" that suggests to me that you probably might not have looked at it from all sides from the NT.

Fellowship and Partnership Offerings

Our giving is not "simply give" - read Gal. 6:6 and Heb. 13:16 (giving that is called "communicate" and "sacrifices". The word "communicate" in those verses is the same in the Greek [koinōneō and koinōnia] from which we get our words "fellowship" or "partnership". This is one type of "fellowship giving/offering" or "partnership giving/offering." Read Phil. 4:14-16 as an example of this type of giving - the fellowship offerings with which we support the ministers of the Gospel.

You'll find again that in I Tim. 6:18, two words are used there - "ready to distribute [eumetadotos], willing to communicate [koinōnikos]." Not really different from this class of giving, but then the words point to the spirit of liberality - being liberal at giving.

Worship Collections/Offerings

1 Cor. 16:2 - "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." This is not the type of giving expressed in Gal. 6:6 and Heb. 13:16. This is points to our Christian expression of financial giving on the first day of the week - our Sunday worship activity. We ought not confuse these types of giving and just indiscreetly give however we think fit. Infact, when you read from verse 1 in I Cor. 16, you see it is the usual practice (and the reasons) of the churches founded by the apostles, not only in Corinth, but as far as unto Galatia as well. I have reasons from I Cor. 4:17 to believe that it was the normal practice of every church in the apostolic age.

Benevolence to Poorer Folk

Distinct from the first two types of giving is that of being benevolent towards people - within and outside the Church. "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35) seems to be the driving impetus of their liberality in this way. We are to give to everyone who has need, both collectively or individually. This is exemplified in Gal. 2:10 - "Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do." Alms giving also falls within this category, and Jesus made reference to it - Matt. 6:3-4.

Tithes and Special Offerings

There are personal matters that each Christian communicates between himself/herself and God. Jesus said this type of transaction should be private (or secret, depending on version - cf. Matt. 6:6). Now, why tithes? It is not condemned in the NT, neither is it viewed as evil as might have been supposed by those averse to it. This is a transaction that I personally take upon my self to give a designated portion of my income "as God hath prospered [me]" (I Cor. 16:2). This is what I lay up in store at designated times, and based on commensurate prospering that God allots me. There are special transactions that Christians have with God that no one else makes their business - that is where my tithes and special offerings come in.

I hope this will be of some help to you, even though you might disagree with what I have expressed. The problem I think, for many, is that they lump up so many matters without carefully looking into them. Let me know where I might have overlooked something in my reply - I'm only human.

God bless.

Dear Enigma,

Please calm down - you also made assumptions about other people as well by asking:

Enigma:

If those who claim that "tithing" is for today say that they are following what the Bible says, then why don't they also follow waht the Bible says that they should share the tithes with orphans, widows, strangers

Of course most churches do exactly that, so there's no need for you to have complained or try to be presumptuous.

That said, let me assure you of my goodwill in the questions you have raised:

(a) I'm not under the Deut. 14 commandment as a Christian; so I can't follow your point as to why that has become the only chapter and verse on tithing in the OT that you use.

(b) No, I don't equate tithing with giving - see my rejoinder to TV01's enquries just above.

(c) First, I have said a few times earlier that we care for widows, orphans, strangers, and prisoners. I tithe in church as other tithers; from there distributions go out to these folks. Second, the reason why i don't spend my tithe on whatever my soul lusteth after is because I don't live my Christian life on the dictates of the soul. Rather, my aim is to walk by the Spirit, and I have not regretted doing that at anytime. I'll reference two verses for this:

              Gal 5:16-17 -  "I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires
              what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that
              you don't do what you want."

There you have it - I choose not to yield to my soulish desires; and that's why I don't spend my tithes on strong drink or anything else.

I'll be glad to follow up on the discussion if I inadvertently missed out or overlooked something.

Regards.

4get_me

Your last post is quite interesting!

1. You are still missing the point. In referring to sharing the tithe with orphans etc, the question is not what churches do. The question is: why does the individual tither not set aside 10% of his/her income and share with widows etc and, sometimes, spend that particular 10% on whatever his/her heart desires? If you know of any tithe-teaching church that says instead of its members bringing the tithes to church, the individual members should instead go and share those tithes with widows etc and buy whatever their own hearts desire, please let us know.

2. You say as a Christian you are not bound by Deuteronomy; then why are you bound by Malachi? On what basis this selective observation/application of Scripture? Or are you not also bound by Malachi? Or you want to base "tithing" on Genesis 14? In which case, why does that apply to you if Deuteronomy 14 does not?

3.

why i don't spend my tithe on whatever my soul lusteth after is because I don't live my Christian life on the dictates of the soul

So you apply a higher standard than God who told people to do exactly that?

4. Fair enough if you don't equate "tithing" with "giving". The response from my position is this: "tithing" was never and is not an obligation for a Christian (though a Christian is obviously free to choose to "tithe"; it is not a condition or precursor to blessings. A Christian is already blessed. What is expected of the Christian as a response to the fact that s/he is already blessed is giving. The only thing that the Bible requires of a Christian is giving according to his/her own decision in his/her own mind. If it is a true Christian mind, rnewed by the Spirit of God, it will know how much to give --- whether more or less than 10% depending on the circumstances.

5. In response to a point you made earlier, saying that the modern teaching of "tithing" is a lie (whether deliberate or indeliberate) does not mean those who teach or practise it are liars or going to hell; it means the teaching is a lie or is false.

Enigma, your points 1 - 5 have already been addressed. And then I find it interesting that you're dragging this point and making inferences I did not make at any time; such as that "So you apply a higher standard than God who told people to do exactly that?" What's that all about? Please read my posts before you make inferences like that, and it is just so that you don't misconstrue my piece that is why I play it safe most times by leaving the scriptures to back my claims.

Thirdly, I want you to see what you've just said:

Enigma:

4. Fair enough if you don't equate "tithing" with "giving". The response from my position is this: "tithing" was never and is not an obligation for a Christian (though a Christian is obviously free to choose to "tithe"; it is not a condition or precursor to blessings.

So, if a Christian is free to choose to tithe, what was your question again? You see, this whole problem would have been solved if you had taken time to see that I did not debate against tithing - I've maintained precisely that a Christian's tithing is a personal transaction between himself/herself and God. Much earlier on I have stated in in reply to one of TV01's enquiry that tithing and giving are not obligatory - I said so earlier; you probably missed it.

However, I don't agree with you in the second part of your statement that "it is not a condition or precursor to blessings." Now if a Christian is already blessed (as surely as it is so), why is there a need to give at all? Just to show that we have been blessed and nothing more? I beg to disagree - take a second look at what the Bible says:

II Cor. 9:6-10 - "But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully
shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or
of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye,
always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed
abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. Now he that ministereth seed to the
sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness).

It is clearly taught in God's Word that when you give, you are sowing; and when you sow, you shall reap. christians don't just give because they have already been blessed and that's the end of the story - not so. We give in thankful appreciation for God's blessings; and then our giving is also a sowing that God notices and will bless for a reaping.

Blessings.

4get_me

You say you have addressed points 1-5; I'm afraid I don't see it; but if you say so I'm happy to leave it.

On sowing and reaping: you are mixing up the reason/motive for doing something with the consequence of doing the thing. I don't know if you are aware that a Christian is not to "give to get". A Christian is not to give because s/he will get in return. A Christian is to give because s/he is grateful to God for His blessings.


What was the widow who gave her mite expecting to receive? (And no good saying she was not a "Christian"

@Enigma,

I'm quite aware that there's a selfish pride in man - even some idea of humility is pride. So, the issue of motive, reason, consequences are all involved. I have a motive for giving based on NT reasons to expect some consequence of my giving - does that make any sense? Motive: God has blessed me. Reason: I'm a Christian obeying His word. Consequence: He said that those who give shall be blessed.

It's up to the believer to decide what motive informs his/her giving. If they have no reasons for giving and expect no consequences, peace to them all the same.

Of course, I understand where you're coming from - man should not have a selfish motive as the reason for giving so that the consequence is 'abundance'. Makes sense; but there's no problem with seeing that God's word gives us all three and more - motive, reason, consequence.

Blessings.

*

thank you viro
need we say more