Abi

it is a dubious way of inteerpreting scripture.....where it concerns money, they choose which part of God's word to obey.

i did not say your blessings are tied to tithing....but i said that you must tithe to guarantee your enjoyment of these blessings. Just like jesus died for all...but u must believe in Him and confess Him as Lord to make that salvation that is avaialable for all vital for u!

Well you do not need to tithe to guarantee any of the blessings of being a Christian. A christian is not even required to tithe. They may choose to do so --- that is fine and that is their right. But we should not be putting other Christians in bondage by placing an obligation on them that neither Christ, the apostles, the gospel, apostolic doctrine nor the Bible places on them.

In other words if one chooses to tithe, that is fine; but they should never tell other Christians that they must tithe; because the Bible does not say so!

Guys, I didn't even bother to read the preceding 96 posts. I was so excited I had to write this immediately. So I'm sorry if I repeat something that's already been said.
Tithing is biblical. This analogy came to me recently. It should be very relevant in the African context.
Imagine a family that is very poor where the older children have small jobs that they do to earn some money. When they get their meagre wages, they immediately give it all to their parents for the upkeep of the family. They are so happy to help out, they don't even think, 'it's so unfair, I worked hard for that money and now it's all gone'. They don't expect their parents to give them a little bit of the money as pocket money. They don't even expect them to put it in savings for them and give it to them when they are older. That money is going to be used to buy food so they don't starve to death. The honour that they are helping in their own small way to sustain the family brings them joy. This is a very common situation so I know it can't be too hard to imagine.
I'm not saying tithing is exactly like that but it helps me understand the attitude we need to have. In the old testament, the Levites (the tribe of priests in Israel) didn't earn any salaries. All they had for their upkeep was that given as tithes. Today, our tithes are used to develop the church: for the upkeep of ministers and missionaries, etc. So it's used for the care of God's family, our family. And God as our father blesses us for this. If everyone tithed regularly, I'm sure churches would need to take up far fewer special offerings.
Also recently I did a Bible study on tithing. We were discussing the prescribed 10%. And here was something interesing that was said - in the old testament, people didn't have the Holy Spirit living in them all the time and they still gave 10% of their earnings to God in addition to special thanksgiving offerings. God has blessed us so much more! There's nothing we could give to God that would make up for what he's done for us, but we could at least have hearts that gave generously and thankfully to him -like David did.
It's really easy to say all these things. I myself struggle deeply daily over the issue of giving money to God, especially when it seems I don't have enough for myself. But then I realise: all that I have is from God, and he meets all my needs. So all I need to do is do what he asks me to do with all that I have and he'll give me all I need. He can supply much more than I ever could,even if I lived to be a hundred and worked every living day of my life!

Enigma,

I never said you should not give alms to the poor and needy. That has its place. Those of us who tithe also do that as well.

You give alms and free will offerings but you pay your tithes...and there is the right place to pay the tithe.

The bible does not ask us to give tithes but to[b] pay [/b] tithes. Because it belongs to the Lord. In the old testament, you could not take your tithes just anywhere, it had to be brought to the temple where it is recieved by the Levis.

The bible tells us that it is the house of God that the Lord commandeth the blessing. There is a blessing ( an annointing) on your man of God that is for you.

Abraham paid tithes ever before the old testament (with the law of Moses) began.

The old testament folks paid tithes because they were the children of Abraham. And since their father paid tithes and they were covenanted to God through him, they had to pay tihes as well.

Abraham was in Covenant with Elshadai and tithing is a covenant principle. He paid tithes to Melchsadec and we paid tihes in him just as the Levites paid tithes in him.

Heb 7:9,10 -"One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchiz'edek met him".

Just as Abraham was their father of faith, so he is our father of faith today.

Rom 4:16-"That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all"

So tithing is not a way the church uses to raise money of like some of you have alledged, or
that pastors use to enrich thmselves; it is a covenant principle from God with promise of blessings for obedience and a curse for disobedience.

That curse is what is working in the klife of the ordinary man...the one who has no covenant with God.he struggles to make a living all by himself ...his natural strenght, wisdom and ability.without the grace and power of God working for him. Read Malachi 3:10
God said He will rebuke the devour..that is the one who come to steal your blessings. The tithe secures the rest of Gods blessings in your life.

This is wisdom: If you pay your tithe, is there any harm in there?...in fact, there are great blessings promised. But what if it is right for us to pay our tihes and you don't, there is a curse...Is it not wise for u to choose to be on the safe side?

[b]Tithing i usually say, is not for everyone...it is for covenant minded people like Abraham...Those who have chosen not to rely on human principles but on principles of faith as taught us by our father of faith , Abraham. Those who have chosen to prosper supernaturally.[/b]I think i understand why it is difficult for some of you to accept. You probaly belong to some orthodox church where they do not believe in or practice tithing. But if you belong in a church where it is preahed and you do not practice it, you are in the wrong and my advice for you is that you leave that church because you will not get blessed since you ar walking in disobedience.

For others, especially those who are accusing pastors of trying to get their money, their problem is that they do not trust their pastors enough to entrust their tithes in to their hands.
They think he will run away with the money or use it for private use. I don't blame them much...
bc that could be the case in their churches.

Well, i trust my man of God. He is always the first to put God's Word to practice. He is about the biggest giver in our ministry. He is a very trustworhty servant of God. When our ministry first started, He did not collect offerings or tithes. He did not believe in tithing and preached against it saying it was for the old testament . But then revelation came to him and he discovered from God word that it is for today and that he would be depriving us of Gods favour and blessings if he did not collect tithes.

Like i said, it depends on where u are coming from. When you have a man of God that is selfless you know that any money you give him will go into the furtherance of the gospel.

For some anyway, their problem is sheer greed...they are greedy so they will never give their tithes to  their pastor.

In a recent project we are carrying out in church costing about N500mil, i am aware that my pastor has already given N80mil as a person for the project and intends to give more. I do not belong to a small ministry. We do not in our ministry argue over whether or not to pay tithes. We are doing mighty things for the kingdom of God. Souls are gettings saved by the millions all over the world. It is not in a  church like mine wher you will be struggling to keep your N10,000 abi N2,000 tithe. Before you open your mouth, someone has dropped his car key for the gospel to move forward.

So have a rethink ok.

donnie

Perhaps you too should do a re-think and examine all the passages of the Bible dealing with tihing carefully. More importantly, go and study what the New Testament has to say about tithing and especially about giving.

As I said before, it is your choice and your right to practice the modern tithing. Just do not preach or teach others this false doctrine.

As for me, I have studied the Bible thoroughly on this and I believe the modern tithe teaching is simply false teaching that puts many misguided christians in bondage. I would rather give to the needy than "tithe". Of course I will also give to support the church. But thank God I know the truth which sets free and will never succumb to the bondage generated by the false teaching on modern tithing.

It's a well known truth that people will always side what will bring/add to their worth. I wonder in this age why people can't even reason and go through the bible themselves.

This link clearly states why tithing is of no more importance. ( http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=161)

And even in the old testament, Jacob did not pay tithe until God bless him, he only did after he has been blessed. But here you see pastors asking people that can hardly afford to eat to pay tithes which end up in some organized hands.

Saying tithe payment is the only way God can bless people is just like turning God into a lottery ( you play with a small amount and win millions LOL).

Dogman, Just to receive where they do not sow. For monetary sake Old testament is valid but for other things it just old we have new testament where no body speak of tithe apart from MIRACLES.

People sell candles , holy water , anoithing oils etc Ha

Robbers in the house of the lord?

Yes indeed, Jacob first insisted that God should bless him; he said if he got the blessing then he would tithe. The Bible does not even tell us whether he eventually kept that promise or paid any tithes at all. In the case of Abraham, there is only one incident (Genesis 14) and even then Abraham did not give tithes from his own goods, instead it was from other people's property that he seized from a war. There is no other mention of him ever giving tithes.

Someone said you "pay" tithes and not give it; they haven't studied the Bible on the subject; if they do they will see that tithing was originally confined to farm products and cattle. There was even a penalty for anyone who wanted to give it in money in that they had to pay an extra 2.5% or so if they wanted to do so. The only other time that God said the people could turn the tithe (cattle/farm product) into money, He said that they themselves (the tithers) should spend the money on whatsoever their heart desired including "strong drink". I still challenge these proponents of tithing to read and interpret Deuteronomy 14:22-28

To make it easy, here is a link to it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu014.html#22

I wait to hear if any tithe preacher/teacher has ever told the congreation that sometimes they can go and spend the "tithe" on whatever their heart desires or that they should go and share it with poor and needy people.

Deuteronomy 14:22-28

22     ¶ Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23     And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.


24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27     And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28     At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

The truth shall set you free.

1cor.2:14-" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1cor3:19-" For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

donnie:

1cor.2:14-" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1cor3:19-" For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

Paul's letter now at work for defense? No tithe was collected by this great man and no references was made that he force people to pay tithe or withdraw the key of heaven/ denial of Abraham blessings which the payment of titthe offers ( leaving out the Grace of our lord JESUS Christ the love of God and fellowship of the Holy spirit which are all free any way)in the new testament. He simply appeal for donations and gifts which he acknowledged with a lot of thanks. Wao Tithe !

Titus 3
9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I did not say you do not recieve God's blessings by faith of by grace... but there is a higher level of living...beyond the ordinary. Do u know what God called Abraham in Blessing him? "Possesor Of Heaven and Earth. Abraham paid tithe in response to this blessing from God...as a covenant minded man.

In blessing Him, [b]God gave him the world, the nations of the earth and you know what? he made us heirs of these blessings. [/b]
We can only respond the same way Abraham deed. If you don't understand that, sorry. ."You see, that is what disobeying God's command delibrately brings to you...'fear'.

Even if He didn't which you cannot guarantee, it is important for you to know that revelation then is not as we have today. Revelation increases. Besides you should understand that they were just beginning to understand God's ways. That was a baby church. He was sent to the gentiles who were not familiar with the law or the abrahamic covenant. So he needed to apppeal to them and sometimes plead with thm. He even had to take a job as a tent maker to  catter for his own needs. But was this the best for the congregation.

Where their man of God will leave Study of God's Word and prayer to see how he can catter for his need and those of others...he will be left with little time to hear from God.

If you like give all your salary and other incomes to your church. Na you sabi.  The children of pastor will be enjoying your money.

If you are a pastor already then I can understand your position, so that others will fall into your trap of having excess without working for it. You even said some churches are babies look at the language?

"That was a baby church. . He even had to take a job as a tent maker to  Catter for his own needs."

Where their man of God will leave Study of God's Word and prayer to see how he can Catter for his need and those of others...he will be left with little time to hear from God.


Who made them the man of GOD only to reap where they do not so?

Revelation increases. Besides you should understand that they were just beginning to understand God's ways. That was a baby church. He was sent to the gentiles who were not familiar with the law or the abrahamic covenant. So he needed to apppeal to them and sometimes plead with thm. He even had to take a job as a tent maker to catter for his own needs. But was this the best for the congregation.

So you and today's teachers of the false tithes doctrine know better ("have a greater revelation" than the Apostle Paul who is credited with writing two-thirds or so of the New Testament

Because the false teaching does not agree with Paul's teachings and actions, it must be Paul who was wrong? It must be Paul who had "inadequate revelation"

If your doctrine does not agree with that of the author of about two-thirds of the New Testament, shouldn't that tell you that something is wrong with your doctrine


Even if you do not mean Paul, but the people he was preaching to does it not occur to you that it is rather arrogant to assme you know better than the people who were much closer to the time that Jesus lived and when the church was being built? When the foundations of the eternal church was being laid? People who were more familiar than you could be with the cultural and Christian practices of that era? If tithing was so important to the foundations or the life of that church you think Peter, Paul, James, John, Phillip, Timothy or any other of the apostles or earliest Christians would not have taught it? How come they were all silent on it. (And the passage in Hebrews is not telling anyone to tithe but explaining how the new covenant is superior to the old!)

Mind u....

I am not trying to convince u.

Your kind may not be convinced , even if Jesus appeared. I am only bringing some illuminaiton your way.

1 Corinthians 3:1 - And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 

This is the corinthian church for you.

When the church matures this is what happens:

Acts 6:2-4 "Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4[b] But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. "[/b]

donnie
It seems you are just waking up to bible teachings. Read it well first so that you stop quoting out of context.

Do you know we have letters written by Paul and gospels?  Jesus did is not the same as Jesus said or Paul wrote.


Oh man of Little faith go for real stuff...

I know your kind....you just have words...

I doubt if you you are born again. If you are, you definitely have not recieved of His holy spirit.

The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Do not think i am trying to impress you by showing you scriptures. I have been in active christianity for a long time....and i have come across a lot of folks i tell u.

You can read from the bible, but if you are not full of His spirit, what you read will only further confuse you. I do not read the scriptures so i can quote them in arguements. I am a doer of the Word. The Word is living in me...in every fibre of my being. I am born of His Spirit. Are you?

If you are, His love will be shed abroad in your heart and will be released each time you speak. His power will freely be demonstrated through. and your life will bring many to the knowledge of God and His wonderful presence and power.

When jesus is Lord of your life, he tames your tongue... you can only speak for Him and for His word ....and not just what you think or feel. You will be afraid to speak evil of His work.
You will be afraid to speak evil of His ministers and his prophets. You will rather pray and weep when you see something or someone go wrong rather than catigate them openly.

You will love all that call up on him. If you have never been filled with His spirit, i ask you to call upon Him today and ask Him to fill you with this precious third person of the Godhead. then you will know of His love, of his saving power and of His miracle workoing power.

The Holy spirit will reveal God's word to you. Because He is the author. Speaking evil about what you do not understand or practice will destroy you. God Bless you.

How can I be dogmatic and fanatical when I know the truth. Seek first the Kingdom of the lord every thing shall be added on to thee. I can never be like you.
Please investigates very well and hold the truth firmly, the truth shall set you free.

To tithe or not to tithe was never commanded by Jesus, the dogman back with philosophy of man to make money should not have place in your life.

Humility and Christ like is all what you require. You do not need to praise yourself before Knowing the type of spirit that feel your heart. Good luck.

To donnie

I doubt if you you are born again. If you are, you definitely have not recieved of His holy spirit.

Now you are God --- deciding who is "born again" and who is not

Your kind may not be convinced , even if Jesus appeared. I am only bringing some illuminaiton your way.

Without meaning to be rude, it is my opinion that you are in darkness on many basic Christian doctrines at the moment unfortunately. Maybe in the future, as you mature in the faith and study more, you will come to the truth and stop peddling vain philosophies and doctrines of men. If this sounds rude, I'm sorry I don't intend to be; it's just the way I see your present condition.

By the way, did you attempt to study and honestly interprete the passage cited to you previously (quoted below): Or is the reason you cast aspersions on people's salvation because you are unable to handle the truth of Scripture?

Deuteronomy 14:22-28

22 ¶ Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.


24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

If you want the passage in another translation/it can be provided.

Mr HND,

i was not supprised when i saw your response on the Mormon article.
...saying there are many ways to get to the Father. Is that what maturing in the srcipture is all about? ....where you begin to juggle the word of God so as to please governments and people of other faiths. If you know the one you serve you will take back those words.

Jesus died for the whole world and not just for christians. That is why we are preaching everywhere that they may hear the message of their salvation.

This is irrespective of government policies of religious differences. Jesus is Lord and some day, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord. Muslims, jews, etheists, bushists...they will all bow and confess that jesus is Lord.

He will judge this world in righteousness...according to the Word of the prophets of the bible.

Jesus will rule this world when he comes (according to the scriptures.) The bible tells us that the government shall be upon His shoulders.
He wiil overthrow the kingdoms of men and establish his heavenly kingdom on the earth. And all thiose who did not accept him will suffer eternally. Does that mean anything to you?

Forget the laws and system that is operating now...they will be overthrown. The bible says Jesus will overthrow their kingdoms and rule this earth.

Preaach the gospel fearlessly, regardless...for those that are appointed to salvation will hear you and be saved.

You will never know the power of God and the miraculous until you are convinced that this gospel is God's only power to save anyone. That is one sure way of knowing thos who are full of God's Spirit...they are convinced about the gospel...enough to risk their lives for it.

-Rom 1:16,17
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."

They call us fanatics but we are not moved ...because the apostles suffered the same...they were killed, stoned and imprisoned for what they believed...but they rejoiced in hope of a heavenly kingdom.

The rapture is not for those who are light-hearted and who compromise their faith to suit others.

You called me childish in my thinking and understanding of God's word...well see this:

Matthew 18:3 - "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."   

...this is the only way to seeing God's glory in your life.believe like a child.

@ Donnie, Abraham did not pay tithe. Abraham gave of the spoils of war 10% to the melchisedek and the remaining 90% to the young men who went to battle.

Yes you are "fanatics"

donnie:



Matthew 18:3 - "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

"They call us fanatics but we are not moved" because you do not behave like chillren who want to know.

TO TITHE...
The Bible already gave us the details in Malachi 3:8-10. The Pastors did not write the Bible, did they? They are only following the doctrine. I believe to tithe is good, afterall they are only asking for your 10%.

If they are old testament christian they should also read Deuteronomy 14:22-28 because it comes before Malachi 3:8-10.

silverbird is absolutely right.

You are also right. The truth of the matter is that tithe was originated to be enjoyed by the giver so that he cooks 10% of his harvest at the place of the LORD and others enjoy with him by thanking God. Only the third year harvest must be turned to the priest s.


The  book of Malachi comes at the fifth century B.C. after the temple in Jerusalem was rebuilt it was a call for people to renew their faithfulness because of laxity and corruption in the life and worship of God. Priests and people were cheating God by not giving him the right offerings that are due to him. He warn them, and spoke of tithe only in one line, Reading through will give a clearer picture but today you are very fast to  quote only that  Malachi 3:8-10.

What was tithe then?  today do they have need for it? do people actually pay tithe?

We are warning this kind thief that depend on people who work very hard for their MONEY to stop this act of 10% they should stop stealing in the name of the LORD.

Read the facts as it speak of offerings as well

The truth shall set you free.

MALACHI CHAPTER 1


1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.


MALACHI CHAPTER 3

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness

4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years

6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

a lot of things in the bible can be argued out either way and its a pity tithe is one of those things. One thing i think we can all agree on is that paying of or refusal to pay tithes is not a pre requisite for having eternal life which is got only through Jesus Christ. I don't support the personal word of words between HND and DONNIE. Its degenerating to something very ugly.

otokx:

I don't support the personal word of words ..... HND ........... Its degenerating to something very ugly.

I am sorry but I need to say the facts. So that world wide visiting Nairaland will be able to read facts. I am sorry if i sound personal. Regards