please I'm a little bit confused about this thought..

They said God is omnipotent..and even omnipresent

and he sees the future...and know everything that would happen next right?? and can even do and undo

okay...does this means that God knew Eve would be deceived and Adam would fall with her?

why did he let that happen?...does this also means he wanted man to fall so that sin would come into this world and man would go through suffering?

pls answer with biblical reference if any

Reading Scripture carefully, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God.
2. The crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.
3. All people will one day glorify God (Psalm 86:9), and God purposes “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:10).

God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection.

God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

In other words, God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences). It’s a complex interaction of wills and choices, but the Creator God can handle any amount of complexity.

God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.

Religion is a ruse and as Karl Marx opined, it is the opium of the masses.

iliyande:
Reading Scripture carefully, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God.
2. The crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.
3. All people will one day glorify God (Psalm 86:9), and God purposes “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:10).

God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection.

God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

In other words, God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences). It’s a complex interaction of wills and choices, but the Creator God can handle any amount of complexity.

God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.

quite clear...

does this means that before any one sinned, God knew he would

I mean why would God create me when he knows I would end up in hell..

and this also means he knows every one who is going to miss rapture??

Alexyswiss:


quite clear...

does this means that before any one sinned, God knew he would

I mean why would God create me when he knows I would end up in hell..

and this also means he knows every one who is going to miss rapture??

Read the last paragraph

iliyande:


Read the last paragraph

Which paragraph? Answer the question.

You're defending the indefensible.

menesheh:



Which paragraph? Answer the question.

You're defending the indefensible.

Yes . He knows . He knows everything in FACT

KingEbukasBlog:


Yes . He knows . He knows everything in FACT

That means one cannot be accused of intentionally going to hell since god is playing his script.

menesheh:



That means one cannot be accuse for intentionally going to hell since god is playing his script.

Im not sure that's the right way to put it

KingEbukasBlog:


Im not sure that's the right way to put it

Put it the right way then

KingEbukasBlog:


Im not sure that's the right way to put it

Hilarious

So, what is the right way to put it then?

hahn:


Hilarious

So, what is the right way to put it then?

Hafa bruh. Long time.
Happy bright Sunday.




That's the illogical notion of the good book. Compelling intelligent people to say illogical and foolish things.

This leads to the question, are we really being saved or mere pawns in God's hands?

Since God's will is the predominant force in creation, and total arbiter, it makes logical sense to attach the ultimate responsibility for evil on the ironically Good God!

Adam and Eve couldn't have been total free with their wills. Their wills would have been a reflection of themselves. For example a violent person exercises violence in all his wills even as a religious cleric. Why he is violent is not because he wishes so, rather because he is himself violent.

Another contention I have is, for free will to truly occur, there must be complete wisdom in the actor. For example a car accident is not the true intent of the driver. The accident results because of a flaw in the driver's driving skills not because he wishes so. Similarly Adam and Eve due to poor judgment and lack of foresight, acted due to foolishness. Foolishness and bad judgment are flaws of the human character. Therefore we don't act freely when the flaws of our character interfere with our judgment.

menesheh:


Hafa bruh. Long time.
Happy bright Sunday.

It haf tey o. You no go church?

That's the illogical notion of the good book. Compelling intelligent people to illogical and foolish things.

Exactly why I seem to have been scarce on religious threads. I am so tired of the same redundant arguments and my business and family require more of my attention

hahn:


It haf tey o. You no go church?

Am now a member of the new toothfairy religion founded by plaetton. We worship on world wide web.



Your family and business should take the bulk of your time for sure.

Alexyswiss:
please I'm a little bit confused about this thought..

They said God is omnipotent..and even omnipresent

and he sees the future...and know everything that would happen next right?? and can even do and undo

okay...does this means that God knew Eve would be deceived and Adam would fall with her?

why did he let that happen?...does this also means he wanted man to fall so that sin would come into this world and man would go through suffering?

pls answer with biblical reference if any

Yep! He knew.
but went ahead with his plan anyways.
Thats why Flying Spaghetti Monster overthrew him and became the God of the world.

menesheh:


Am now a member of the new toothfairy religion founded by plaetton. We worship on world wide web.

The toothfarians

Your family and business should take the bulk of your time for sure.

Yes o. Arguing on the religious section is now like listening to a bad cd

hahn:


Exactly why I seem to have been scarce on religious threads. I am so tired of the same redundant arguments and my business and family require more of my attention

If Hahn claims to be scarce on the religion threads then Michael Jackson is still alive

chinnyonwu:


Yep! He knew.
but went ahead with his plan anyways.
Thats why Flying Spaghetti Monster overthrew him and became the God of the world.

Alexyswiss:


quite clear...

does this means that before any one sinned, God knew he would

I mean why would God create me when he knows I would end up in hell..

and this also means he knows every one who is going to miss rapture??

yes a big yes, let me explian futher wit this verse Romas 9:13-23 and Romas 8:30

hahn:


The toothfarians

I proposed a befitting name to plaetton - voidicts who are adherents to the god , Void . And Richard Dawkins as your high priest .

hahn:


Hilarious

So, what is the right way to put it then?

I dont know what you want me to tell you now

Alexyswiss:
Please I'm a little bit confused about this thought..

They said God is omnipotent..and even omnipresent and he sees the future... And know everything that would happen next right?? And can even do and undo.

Okay... Does this means that God knew Eve would be deceived and Adam would fall with her?

Ofcourse yes! God knew man would sin and fall.

Rev 13v8 -And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Also;

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

You can see this two verses? It says Jesus is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world and that His death was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Meaning God prepared the propitiation for the sins of mankind and made a plan for man's redemption and restoration even before the foundation of the earth, ever before man sinned and fell.

So yes God knew man would sin and fall. And He made a plan for the remission of our sins and for our redemption ahead.

Alexyswiss:
Why did he let that happen?

It wasn't God that let it happen as much as it was Adam that chose to disobey and fall.

God gave man a freewill. It would be wrong of God to give man a freewill or the right of choice to make personal decisions, and God will still be policing that "freewill" and/or manipulating it so that man only does what God wants.

Technically that would no longer be freewill, would it?

So it was Adam's choice to disobey and sin and fall. And God did not manipulate Adam's freewill to prevent the fall. God only prepared a plan of remission and redepmtion for man after it happens -should man accept the offer.

Alexyswiss:
Does this also means he wanted man to fall so that sin would come into this world and man would go through suffering?

No it wasn't God's will or desire for man to sin or fall or suffer. But it also wasn't God's intention or desire to manipulate man's freewill to prevent the fall, if man chooses to disobey and fall.

See this;

Eccl 7v29 -Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Can you see? God made man upright, and He wanted man to continue in that uprightness. But He also gave man the freewill to choose to search out many inventions and lifestyles.

Man chose the latter, and God didn't manipulate man's freewill to prevent it. Because that wouldn't be freewill or justice anymore.

Shalom

KingEbukasBlog:


I dont know what you want me to tell you now

What were you thinking about when you said

KingEbukasBlog:

Im not sure that's the right way to put it

KingEbukasBlog:

U know your IQ is low, why are you quoting me?

ayoku777:


Ofcourse yes! God knew man would sin and fall.

Rev 13v8 -And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Also;

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

You can see this two verses? It says Jesus is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world and that His death was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Meaning God prepared the propitiation for the sins of mankind and made a plan for man's redemption and restoration even before the foundation of the earth, ever before man sinned and fell.

So yes God knew man would sin and fall. And He made a plan for the remission of our sins and for our redemption ahead.



It wasn't God that let it happen as much as it was Adam that chose to disobey and fall.

God gave man a freewill. It would be wrong of God to give man a freewill or the right of choice to make personal decisions, and God will still be policing that "freewill" and/or manipulating it so that man only does what God wants.

Technically that would no longer be freewill, would it?

So it was Adam's choice to disobey and sin and fall. And God did not manipulate Adam's freewill to prevent the fall. God only prepared a plan of remission and redepmtion for man after it happens -should man accept the offer.



No it wasn't God's will or desire for man to sin or fall or suffer. But it also wasn't God's intention or desire to manipulate man's freewill to prevent the fall, if man chooses to disobey and fall.

See this;

Eccl 7v29 -Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Can you see? God made man upright, and He wanted man to continue in that uprightness. But He also gave man the freewill to choose to search out many inventions and lifestyles.

Man chose the latter, and God didn't manipulate man's freewill to prevent it. Because that wouldn't be freewill or justice anymore.

Shalom

but since God gave you freewill...I agree

he is all knowing he also know you going to make a wrong decision ??

chinnyonwu:

U know your IQ is low, why are you quoting me?

I perspicaciously detect foolishness . This is an exhibition of one

KingEbukasBlog:

I dont know what you want me to tell you now

say it as it is....
because God knows the future...he knew you would fall

Alexyswiss:


but since God gave you freewill...I agree

he is all knowing he also know you going to make a wrong decision ??

Yes, God knows if a man is going to make a wrong decision with the freewill He has given you.

But He will not manipulate your freewill to make you not make that wrong decision. That would not be freewill anymore or justice.

The best God will do is warn you in your conscience or by His Word and Spirit about it.

For example, God knew Cain was thinking about killing Abel. He warned Cain but didn't force or manipulate him to not do it.

Gen 4v6 -And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

v7 -If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him

God will show us His will and warn us about our choices, but He will not manipulate our freewill.

Cain eventually killed Abel and he was banished from among his kindred. The same scenario played out in the case of Adam and Eve. God gave them a warning but didn't force or manipulate their freewill not to disobey.

The idea that since God is the Almighty He should go around pulling His weight and manipulate man's freewill up and down is unfounded and not scriptural.

And also, just because God knows the choices you will make with your freewill doesn't mean He is the one manipulating you to make it. No, you made it all on your own.

Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him

John 6v64 -But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

But it wasn't Jesus that made Judas betray Him. Judas trangressed all on his own.

Acts 1v25 -That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Hope all these helps a little?

Shalom

ayoku777:


Yes, God knows if a man is going to make a wrong decision with the freewill He has given you.

But He will not manipulate your freewill to make you not make that wrong decision. That would not be freewill anymore or justice.

The best God will do is warn you in your conscience or by His Word and Spirit about it.

For example, God knew Cain was thinking about killing Abel. He warned Cain but didn't force or manipulate him to not do it.

Gen 4v6 -And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

v7 -If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him

God will show us His will and warn us about our choices, but He will not manipulate our freewill.

Cain eventually killed Abel and he was banished from among his kindred. The same scenario played out in the case of Adam and Eve. God gave them a warning but didn't force or manipulate their freewill not to disobey.

The idea that since God is the Almighty He should go around pulling His weight and manipulate man's freewill up and down is unfounded and not scriptural.

And also, just because God knows the choices you will make with your freewill doesn't mean He is the one manipulating you to make it. No, you made it all on your own.

Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him

John 6v64 -But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

But it wasn't Jesus that made Judas betray Him. Judas trangressed all on his own.

Acts 1v25 -That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Hope all these helps a little?

Shalom

thanks bro....I get you totally

but since he has power to...why don't he just manipulate it so that we don't choose wrongly
since he also dislike it??

@ayoku777

Is there a great moral value behind the reason God give s man free will?

Doesn't man still manifest God's will by exercising it? Can a man alter God's plan by using his freewill?

menesheh:


Hafa bruh. Long time.
Happy bright Sunday.




That's the illogical notion of the good book. Compelling intelligent people to illogical and foolish things.

FOREKNWLEDGE is not ORDAINING. God knowing man will rebel is not the same thing as saying God authored rebellion. Comprende?

God creates free moral agents and it is this freedom that may be used to walk away from Him