Afam:

So, Obama has not been communicating all these while?

Is this authoritative?  Maybe he has been using donkeys and birds to communicate with people outside his immediate environment.

Again, what happened when foreigners planned and executed the 911 attack on US soil? Was the US Army, CIA, FBI etc on vacation?

He communicates alright, but not with electronic means. It was once said that while the US thinks in terms of smart bomb and fly-by-wire planes, Osama thinks in terms of camel and caves. Remember when US forces striked at iraqi forces at the begining without warming? Declassified information showed that Saddam was tracked when he used a phone. However, the confirmation to strike him came too late as he already moved away from his point, or something along those lines.

If you think this is non-sense, I suggest you go use your mobile phone or some sort of gps equipment around the Toraborah caes if you won't attract unwanted attention to your location .


Finally, the question of terrorist attacking the US has been answered already. Please take time to read the thread instead of asking repetitive question. In the mean time, you may want to read up on conventional war fare and unconventional tactics in war.

they are prolly being punished by seniors o!. . .not their instructors(that is not to say that their instructors dont dish out similar punishments!)

ElRazur:

He communicates alright, but not with electronic means. It was once said that while the US thinks in terms of smart bomb and fly-by-wire planes, Osama thinks in terms of camel and caves. Remember when US forces striked at iraqi forces at the begining without warming? Declassified information showed that Saddam was tracked when he used a phone. However, the confirmation to strike him came too late as he already moved away from his point, or something along those lines.

No sir, Osama deliberately left the phone with one of his aides and of course the US tracked the wrong person and ended up killing the wrong person. Well, it seems that Camels and Caves are better off when compared to the sophisticated and money gulping US Army in terms of efficiency then.

ElRazur:

If you think this is non-sense, I suggest you go use your mobile phone or some sort of gps equipment around the Toraborah caes if you won't attract unwanted attention to your location .

I know more than enough about mobile phones and GPS, you were the person that brought up the intel as if the US sees every vital information and Nigeria doesn't.

ElRazur:

Finally, the question of terrorist attacking the US has been answered already. Please take time to read the thread instead of asking repetitive question. In the mean time, you may want to read up on conventional war fare and unconventional tactics in war.

Don't go vague here? The time you spent on the response above was more than enough to provide the answer to the question. Let's keep it simple.

ElRazur:

First you claimed it was all Nigeria's effort, but am guessing having gone to check your sources and seeing that it wasn't all Nigeria, you find it hard to admit right. Good thing you ain't taking it further. It sucks when people find it hard to admit when they are wrong period.m

Admit I was wrong?   Everyone knows ECOMOG was a West African effort, but it is also common knowledge that Nigeria was the overwhelmingly dominant force. I have never sought to 'claim' it was all Nigeria, I simply used that example to show the ability/achievements of the Nigerian Armed forces - you introduced this irrelevant talk about who else was involved. The issue is the capability of the Nigerian forces - they were the dominant force and thus it shows they were integral and efficient in delivering the result.

That is like trying to re-write history and not giving credits where credit is due. Nigeria was part of the forces that got the job done and as such, you cannot give Nigeria the entire credit like you are trying to do. Did the Brits take all the credits for the events at Normandy?

This use of 'entire' and 'all' is all your doing. I never made any reference to Nigeria being the ONLY one involved. Maybe this argument about who did it all is simply in your head.

And more stupidity coming from you as usual. Who mentioned Nigeria fought soldiers from Cameroon? The event over at the peninsula that leads to Nigeria deploying forces was meant as a display and show of force. The point I making is that going off to show old hardware won't do much good to scare your potential enemy, especially when they are things like Russian MiGs et al.

Russian MiGs destroyed the RUF and the same old technology liberated Liberia. The enemy was sufficiently scared that the only recourse was to go to court because they would be massacred if it came to a military battle. You claimed that the opposition was 'better kitted' than the Nigerian Army - can you shed more light as to who these were?

As for "not playing by the rule of war" you are making it sound like the Somalian beats the US forces hands down, etc. Yet in actual fact, they left at their own accord.

Again, YOU introduced this rule of war thing as if it mattered at all in the discussion. I don't know rebel groups anywhere who play by rules of war, so how exactly is it relevant to this discourse? I have simply shown by drawing a parallel between no rules of war in Somalia and West Africa that such a claim cannot be used to distinguish military forces from Nigeria or the US

Going by some of the things you have mentioned so far[b], it is safe to conclude at this point that I do understand the issue at hand better than you[/b]. For your information, Small specialised group of elite forces that specialises in Urban Guerilla war fare tactics do exist. They have been used across the world to deal with scenarios similar to those in the Niger Delta. In fact, it is a speciality with several modern forces across the world - US, Canada, Russia all have men who specialises in this sort of field. Now my point is, if our forces are properly trained, then it would have been ideal to send in this men as opposed to the 7000 that was sent in before.
MEND have small numbers of men, on comparison to the Nigeria's forces. Only a fool will believe MEND are in excess of 5000 men. You just have to look at their operational footprint to see this. Not that you would know anyway.

For one who claims that I am

You are typical of those troll around here. I made a post, and then you came along talking your usually "I am right and you are wrong" crap again.

You're very quick to post I am right and you are wrong aren't you? I challenged your claim as to the Nigerian military, and you have provided no evidence that you have detailed knowledge about them to make a valid judgment. Apart from making tenuous and unrelated claims about rule of war, commandos and old equipment, you haven't shown any 'knowledge' here.

For the record, US is not out to flatten out Afghanistan like your post is suggesting. I suggest you do a bit of reading up more on that one. It is useless correcting you every now and then.

Where did I claim they are flattening Afghanistan? Again with these your imaginations. I have simply drawn a parallel between the ND action and Afghanistan - any other comments are strictly your invention.

ND area is how many kilometre square miles? Iraq and Afghanistan is how many Kilometre square miles? You are comparing a state to a nation the size of France? Dude you are awesome.  

The Niger delta's area  is 70,000 km2. Helmand Province is 58,584km2 and has one of the largest concentration of troops in Afghanistan - you tell me whether it is a suitable comparison or not. Again, the above is an indulgence - I did not make a case based on area, simply based on the type of military action you are specifying, simply drawing parallels.

Then when I played along, you are quick to tell me you don't see any correlation. Yet funny enough you seem to be STILL playing along.

I am trying to see whether there is any sense in your convoluted posts, which seem more about displaying what you claim to know (as shown by your frequent references that 'you know more' than I do) than arguing the nitty gritty of the matter based on real examples.

In case you are missing the point, we are poorly equipped and poorly trained. Period.

This is relative. I have said numerous times that given our location in the world, the military has excelled and done most of it's tasks excellently. Of course any military can do with better equipment and training, but we are not 'poorly' equipped and trained, as our successes in the sub region have shown.

You have agreed their intel is flawed. My job is done here.

Flawed intel is a moot point. The US has had cases of flawed intel, so have the British. As a result, this single case is not a definitive measure of the quality of the Nigerian military.

Again ignorance and stupidity on display. Yay! What do you really know? So you support negotiating with a militant group who have kidnapped and blackmail innocent people? A group that have systematically shut down Nigeria's oil production? Awesome. Next you will be calling for Muslims to eat pork. Nice.

Who mentioned negotiation?   Why don't you just stick to the subject matter instead of going off half cocked? Did I tell you what I believed was the solution?   I have simply said the solution is not military action. Draw whatever wild conclusions you want from that, I won't get into a side argument on that right now.

Since you are very ignorant on this one, allow me to educate you. Nigeria's oil facility was built without security in mind. A look at the aerial photography would show this. Refinery are close to mangrove swamp and without much accessibility. Even some of the pipes goes through a civilian area and as such can be difficult to secure. But like I said, security was a non-issue when it was first built.

Again, who is claiming 'to know' here?   Thanks for the education, but I have actually lived and worked around the area so I am good on that account.

On comparison to a place like Saudi Arabia, you will have to travel at least 10miles or so of concrete and tarmaced roads before reaching the oil refinery. Then there are security mounted check points etc one have to go through. Now, this is the sort of structure they we really need in Nigeria.

Saudi Arabia is a sparsely populated country with deserts covering most of the area. How can you intelligently even compare the two locations?   A rational comparison to a country with similar coastal oil installations, but no El Razur feels Saudi is the relevant comparison. Given your 'excellent knowledge' you will understand that resolving the socio-economic issues in the ND will eliminate the need for over elaborate security provisions and reduce the threats to these installations to a minimum. Refineries on the south coast of England do not have (nor need) any 10 mile roads with stern security because the local populace is not arming up to destroy those facilities.

Britain offered to train and support to Yar'adua, after all, they are very knowledgeable in this sort of things. Since we have a refinery built for "convenience". The point is, we are ill equipped to deal with this and we need our men trained up to the standards needed to safe guard our oil refineries.

We might simply have philosophical differences on this. I do not believe the problem is a primarily military/weapons based. It is socio-economic and must be dealt with that way. Training by British forces will not stop politicians smuggling weapons into the country via customs and arming youths to fight their battles and then discarding them afterwards. All the military training in the world will not prevent this, I hope that is clear.

Just a final word none of the refineries have been attacked till date by MEND - not, PHRC, not WRPC, not NLNG and not Eleme petrochemicals. Oil production facilities have been attacked, but the distinction may not matter to one as knowledgeable as yourself.  

@Afam. Sorry can quote you, using my phone.

Anyway, Intel showed that Saddam uses that particular phone a lot (a satelite phone if memory serves me right) and as such was tracked down with it. That is the bottomline, whether he "delibrately left it with his aid" are just some of the other versions of the story.

I was merely trying to tell you that tracking can be done with some electronic stuff etc.


Dude, I am not having a go at you with my last paragraph. The bigger picture is this, once you state the obivious here with the state of Nigeria's social structure - in this case the army - as been poorly and ill equipped, you tend to get a few people moving the goal post and dragging silly stuff into the debate. For example, if you go back to the previous pages, a few people already asked that if the US forces are so good, how come they couldn't prevent 911. Or how come osama can be found etc. These people forget that these two cases are not conventional war and more or less terrorism and ideologies, which requires a different method and approach.

I mean, how do you fight someone who believes if he straps a bomb on himself and blow up a few innocent people or people considered legitimate target by their ideologies would be rewarded with virgins in heaven? Clearly these kind of "issues" cannot be won by firepower alone.

ElRazur:

@Afam. Sorry can quote you, using my phone.

Anyway, Intel showed that Saddam uses that particular phone a lot (a satelite phone if memory serves me right) and as such was tracked down with it. That is the bottomline, whether he "delibrately left it with his aid" are just some of the other versions of the story.

Saddam ke? I was talking about Osama not Saddam. Meanwhile if you really meant Saddam then I believe it was reported that a relative gave up his location and not any tracking device or mechanism.

If you agree that terrorism is not conventional warfare then why are you saying that Nigerian Army cannot tackle the militants in the Niger Delta as if MEND is fighting a regular war?

It seems you have something against Nigerian Army that makes you to downplay or dismiss any achievements that they have recorded in the past. This is where I have problems with your position.

Afam:

Saddam ke? I was talking about Osama not Saddam. Meanwhile if you really meant Saddam then I believe it was reported that a relative gave up his location and not any tracking device or mechanism.

If you agree that terrorism is not conventional warfare then why are you saying that Nigerian Army cannot tackle the militants in the Niger Delta as if MEND is fighting a regular war?

Good question Afam - this is what I have been hammering on, while El Raz thinks a commando force will solve all the problems

It seems you have something against Nigerian Army that makes you to downplay or dismiss any achievements that they have recorded in the past. This is where I have problems with your position.

This is the crux of the matter. I don't know if it's a problem with the army as such, or that he feels any achievements of theirs might negate his opinion about a need for more training and equipment, which it doesn't.

@debosky

You cannot give credit of an alied forces acoomplishment to one nation. Again I refer to my previous example, do you credits the Brits forces for events at normandy? You posts on these section shows and suggested that you are giving nigeria the entire credit. Anyone with half a brain can see this


Old technologies and modern weapons? I know whcich one I would prefer our forces to be equipped with.


Dude you are awesome at twisting stories isn't? You presented your case suggesting that US forces got trashed by somalians, when in actual fact, it isn't the case. And to further buttress my point, I mentioned that somalians never played by the rule of law. How hard is it to understand this simple point

Nice one for evading all the points raised there to post more crap.


Read your own post again. You DID mention that "how many men did US forces used to flatten afghan" or something along those lines. And I pointed it out to you that US forces have no issues with afghan, but talibans.

Gosh this dude is awesome. Your post made mentioned of Iraq and Afghanistan, and then I askefd you for the Sq km, you end up giving me that of Helmand? Lmao. Keep it up dude. The point is, with a country, things can easily go wrong. However with nigerian forces dealing in something smaller, they should at least get it right.

Dude. Even when the details are argued, then you move the goal post as usual. Lmao

Nigeria's army is poorly equipped comapre to armies from Egypt, and I would even say algeria.


Haha moved the goal post again. You believe that miitary action is not the way forward with MEND, then that leaves negotiation and dialouge isn't? So I am asking you, do you propose we as a nation negotiate with a criminal group? Or using you infinite e.wisdom please tell me the other options? Lmao, For the record, I asked a QUESTION and you didn't provide any answer, other than claim "imagination" etc. Nice one Debo, how do you do it?

Saudi arabia is a good comparison, anyone with tiny amount of brain would see it. Both are oil producing counteries with people who have different ideologies as to how these resources should be tapped. Nigeria have issues with mend, while the saudi kingdom have problem with alqueda and those who do not want the westerners in their country. How hard is it to understand this?

Mend have succeffully shut down Nigeria's oil output by more than 20%, using various method of sabotage, vandalism, kidnap, extortion etc. All of these are affecting the refineries. Once again nice logic there. You are good.



@Afam
For us to tackle these folks - MEND - I believe that we need properly trained men. We need good intel, we need very good reconnisaince unit. If we have all of these, we can catch them with their pants down. We do not have to carpet bomb, thereby having high casaulties of civillian. We do not have to go in with 7000, for god's sake that is what counteries like US and co deploy to battlefields, and not to fight ill equiped militants.

For the record, I have no personal issues with our guys. It ain't their fault they are poorly trained and ill equiped.

ElRazur:

@debosky

You cannot give credit of an alied forces acoomplishment to one nation. Again I refer to my previous example, do you credits the Brits forces for events at normandy? You posts on these section shows and suggested that you are giving nigeria the entire credit. Anyone with half a brain can see this

Final time - I never gave 'entire' credit to anyone - the idea is wholly yours. Nigeria was instrumental in the successes in Sierra Leone and Liberia. That demonstrates their capability. End.

Old technologies and modern weapons? I know whcich one I would prefer our forces to be equipped with.

I prefer modern weapons as well - this has never been an issue with me. Modern will improve the military. The question is are they good (with a potential to improve) at the moment? Yes.

Dude you are awesome at twisting stories isn't? You presented your case suggesting that US forces got trashed by somalians, when in actual fact, it isn't the case. And to further buttress my point, I mentioned that somalians never played by the rule of law. How hard is it to understand this simple point

No one (rebel groups) plays by rule of law, so it is irrelevant. None of the opposition in sierra leone did so this is indeed irrelevant. It's like butressing your point by saying people were killed in both countries - such is a given.

Read your own post again. You DID mention that "how many men did US forces used to flatten afghan" or something along those lines. And I pointed it out to you that US forces have no issues with afghan, but talibans.

Again semantics - are the taliban (at least some of them) not Afghan citizens as well? People are being killed, including innocents, regardless of whether the US has 'issues' with them. That is the import of my post - I don't use adjectives like flatten, they are too loose.

Gosh this dude is awesome. Your post made mentioned of Iraq and Afghanistan, and then I askefd you for the Sq km, you end up giving me that of Helmand? Lmao. Keep it up dude. The point is, with a country, things can easily go wrong. However with nigerian forces dealing in something smaller, they should at least get it right.

Helmand is relevant as it is the primary theatre of war there. Even if it is something smaller, the scale of the effort is not the only determinant of success. Is the war in Afghanistan across ALL of the country? No.

Nigeria's army is poorly equipped comapre to armies from Egypt, and I would even say algeria.

Kindly provide proof to back up this assertion. Egypt might have newer gear due to US support, but tht doesn't make Nigeria's army poorly equipped to carry out it's functions.

Haha moved the goal post again. You believe that miitary action is not the way forward with MEND, then that leaves negotiation and dialouge isn't? So I am asking you, do you propose we as a nation negotiate with a criminal group? Or using you infinite e.wisdom please tell me the other options? Lmao, For the record, I asked a QUESTION and you didn't provide any answer, other than claim "imagination" etc. Nice one Debo, how do you do it?

I stated clearly that I do not wish to engage in this debate at the moment - is it relevant to a discourse about the military? NO. There are numerous options for dealing with MEND, or more appropriately with the wider ND issue of which MEND is symptomatic. No infinite wisdom here, just no desire to dilute the argument and move in a different direction. If you want to discuss the ND issue, create a separate thread.

Saudi arabia is a good comparison, anyone with tiny amount of brain would see it. Both are oil producing counteries with people who have different ideologies as to how these resources should be tapped. Nigeria have issues with mend, while the saudi kingdom have problem with alqueda and those who do not want the westerners in their country. How hard is it to understand this?

On a peripheral view, there are similarities, but this is essentially comparing apples with oranges - MEND is a resource driven fight based on deprivation and environmental degradation. Al Quada is religion driven and is based on changing saudi/world ideology, how can they so casually compared? You yourself spoke about suicide bombings by AL Quada - does MEND use this strategy?

Saudi Arabia produces oil, but that is the end of the comparison. It is a monarchy, so it operates a different political structure. It is mono-religious, with a small population and very low levels of poverty, with it's citizens having no inclination to gain riches through violence. Nigeria is poor, more than half the population is under the poverty level and there is widespread degradation of the environment coupled with harsh terrain and government neglect. Drivers are different, terrain is different, problem is different.

Mend have succeffully shut down Nigeria's oil output by more than 20%, using various method of sabotage, vandalism, kidnap, extortion etc. All of these are affecting the refineries. Once again nice logic there. You are good.

Talk about shifting goal posts. So because MEND is attacking oil facilities (not refineries), is it now ok for me to say we need better armed forces to protect our petrol stations because 'all of these' affect them too?

My point is clear - the Army is efficient and effective for the most part in carrying out it's tasks. Can it improve? Of course. Can it get better kit, definitely. Is the ND issue one that can be solved militarily? No.

Saddam was tracked through his calls to his second wife.

@ALL.

honestly i want to correct a very wrong impression that has been painted on this pictures by the poster.
i was trained in this prestigious training and African premier military university, NDA.

there is a high probability that these pictures were taken in NDA, because i can recognise some of the 'traditions'. . .
I want to state categorically clear that these pictures do not depict TRAINING ACTIVITIES. . . .

some of these pix were probably taken during SHAKE-UPS. . .which is Cadets traditional way of humbling the 4th termers {4th year cadets} and preparing them for leadership positions. To be a leader, you need to be reminded of the basic tenets of Cadetship. . . .please don't misunderstand me. there are lots of other traditional 'leadership' activities which was undoubtedly not shown in the pictures posted by the poster. . .


                                                              . . . .to be cont.

tpiah:

Saddam was tracked through his calls to his second wife.

Hmmmm?

Ok, if you have time just read through the articles on the following sites

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO312B.html

http://www.human-nature.com/reason/02/saddam.html

debosky:

Final time - I never gave 'entire' credit to anyone - the idea is wholly yours. Nigeria was instrumental in the successes in Sierra Leone and Liberia. That demonstrates their capability. End.

You are not fooling anyone but yourself. Go back to your original claim. You did. Period.

I prefer modern weapons as well - this has never been an issue with me. Modern will improve the military. The question is are they good (with a potential to improve) at the moment? Yes.

So you agree there is room for improvement, however not that they are poorly trained or ill equipped? Hmmm I guess you are experimenting with word play.

No one (rebel groups) plays by rule of law, so it is irrelevant. None of the opposition in sierra leone did so this is indeed irrelevant. It's like butressing your point by saying people were killed in both countries - such is a given.

In the case of the US forces, they did. They are in fact, bound by it. What is your point.

Again semantics - are the taliban (at least some of them) not Afghan citizens as well? People are being killed, including innocents, regardless of whether the US has 'issues' with them. That is the import of my post - I don't use adjectives like flatten, they are too loose.

That is like calling an unborn foetus a child. Let us call a spade, a spade shall we? US forces where out to get the Taliban, not the Afghan people. Seriously how hard is it to understand? Finally, when your debate start loosing steam and you are grasping for point, it appears you result to neat picking and all that. Dude you are more weaker than you look, when you start poking at English words usage around here. I suppose that is all part and parcel of debating the point at hand right? Seriously, you are good.

Helmand is relevant as it is the primary theatre of war there. Even if it is something smaller, the scale of the effort is not the only determinant of success. Is the war in Afghanistan across ALL of the country? No.

If memory serves me right, the original question was about Iraq and Afghanistan. Not the city you are trying to push across. Speaking of moving the goal post. Just in case, you missed the point, refer back to the original questions and counter-argument that followed.

Kindly provide proof to back up this assertion. Egypt might have newer gear due to US support, but tht doesn't make Nigeria's army poorly equipped to carry out it's functions.

Here let us play the number game - They have an estimated bigger number of active and reserve troops than us.

Here let us talk about weapons - They have more weapons and modern ones by the way.

Here, let us talk about "experience" - This is a force that have engaged in many wars and have lived to tell the tale, than Nigeria can shake a stick at.

You agreed they are better equipped, but then in same breathe, you appear to disagree that Nigeria is not poorly equipped when compared with egypt! You instead changed it by claiming something else. Even though the original point is that they are better equipped and trained than our forces. Dude my belly ache from laughing. L.M.M.F.A.O!

I stated clearly that I do not wish to engage in this debate at the moment - is it relevant to a discourse about the military? NO. There are numerous options for dealing with MEND, or more appropriately with the wider ND issue of which MEND is symptomatic. No infinite wisdom here, just no desire to dilute the argument and move in a different direction. If you want to discuss the ND issue, create a separate thread.

You made some bullsh.it point then claimed "Blah blah blah you don't want to talk about it" Gosh. The fact is, if you oppose military rule, then the next option is dialogue. You can call it all want you, but it still remains what it is - a dialogue. Now I am asking you again . . . Do you propose we a state negotiate with a criminal elements?

For the record. I refuse to make a thread simply because you asked.

On a peripheral view, there are similarities, but this is essentially comparing apples with oranges - MEND is a resource driven fight based on deprivation and environmental degradation. Al Quada is religion driven and is based on changing saudi/world ideology, how can they so casually compared? You yourself spoke about suicide bombings by AL Quada - does MEND use this strategy?

Peripheral, lateral or diagonal view. Dude, you can ignore the point at hand all you want, but the bottom line remains Saudi and Nigeria have people/group who are not happy with a few things that are related to oil. How hard is that?

Saudi Arabia produces oil, but that is the end of the comparison. It is a monarchy, so it operates a different political structure. It is mono-religious, with a small population and very low levels of poverty, with it's citizens having no inclination to gain riches through violence. Nigeria is poor, more than half the population is under the poverty level and there is widespread degradation of the environment coupled with harsh terrain and government neglect. Drivers are different, terrain is different, problem is different.

See above. Please stop window dressing. Saudi and Nigeria have similar issues. Issues that can have impact on the out of oil from those counteries - Only that Nigeria is already seen this happened, and threats of many more to come. Saudi on the other hand have managed to deal with this via having properly trained forces and outfit. Plus other things off course.

Talk about shifting goal posts. So because MEND is attacking oil facilities (not refineries), is it now ok for me to say we need better armed forces to protect our petrol stations because 'all of these' affect them too?

Best to let this one slide. It get tiring sometimes.

My point is clear - the Army is efficient and effective for the most part in carrying out it's tasks. Can it improve? Of course. Can it get better kit, definitely. Is the ND issue one that can be solved militarily? No.

What is effective to you? Carpet bombing a region filled with civilians? Effective, yet our oil output have dropped? Effective and we have kidnapping and extortion still going on by the criminal elements? I suppose effective in your dictionary means beating the crap out of civilians? If so, I dread to see your definition of ineffective and poorly trained.

ElRazur:

You are not fooling anyone but yourself. Go back to your original claim. You did. Period.

Last I checked, the quote function has not been disabled - kindly quote where I did this.

So you agree there is room for improvement, however not that they are poorly trained or ill equipped? Hmmm I guess you are experimenting with word play.

How is it word play? EVERY ARMY has room for improvement - does that automatically mean every army is poorly trained? YOU El Raz can improve your training, does that mean you are poorly trained at the moment? Binary thinking can be dangerous - there is more than one possible outcomes when there is room for improvement.

In the case of the US forces, they did. They are in fact, bound by it. What is your point.

The point is the opponents - the rebels in Liberia and the Somalis, neither obeyed rules of war - by that measure, rule of war is not a distinguishing factor between the US forces and Nigerian forces and cannot be used to buttress any claims to levels of training or equipment.

That is like calling an unborn foetus a child. Let us call a spade, a spade shall we? US forces where out to get the Taliban, not the Afghan people. Seriously how hard is it to understand? Finally, when your debate start loosing steam and you are grasping for point, it appears you result to neat picking and all that. Dude you are more weaker than you look, when you start poking at English words usage around here. I suppose that is all part and parcel of debating the point at hand right? Seriously, you are good.

Mr word play - you are the person introducing the distinction between the taliban and the afghan people, while in MY post, my use of afghan simply implied whomever the US was fighting in Afghanistan, including combatants and innocents. There is no grasping there - unless both civilians and combatants have NOT been killed, the point stands.

If memory serves me right, the original question was about Iraq and Afghanistan. Not the city you are trying to push across. Speaking of moving the goal post. Just in case, you missed the point, refer back to the original questions and counter-argument that followed.

Yes the question was about Afghanistan, but it is pertinent to note the precise combat zones (e.g Helmand) within the country so as not to give an impression that the WHOLE country engulfed by fighting, which was the context for introducing the examples in the first place.

Here let us play the number game - They have an estimated bigger number of active and reserve troops than us.

Here let us talk about weapons - They have more weapons and modern ones by the way.

Here, let us talk about "experience" - This is a force that have engaged in many wars and have lived to tell the tale, than Nigeria can shake a stick at.

Bigger and more weapons - does that make an Army better? According to you, Ghana is smaller and better than us so how does this stand up to your previous claim?

Regarding 'experience', apart from getting whupped serially by the Israelis, what wars have the Egyptians fought and lived to tell the tale? In terms of peacekeeping and restoration of democracy, how many countries have they liberated (Nigeria can count Liberia and Sierra Leone, yes not solo but an integral part of the effort) from rebel forces?

You agreed they are better equipped, but then in same breathe, you appear to disagree that Nigeria is not poorly equipped when compared with egypt! You instead changed it by claiming something else. Even though the original point is that they are better equipped and trained than our forces. Dude my belly ache from laughing. L.M.M.F.A.O!

Have you heard of good - better- best?

Even if A is better equipped than B, does it mean B is poorly equipped? The original point is that we are not poorly equipped to meet our needs - others might have better equipment, but we have adequate (albeit not superlative) equipment levels.

You made some bullsh.it point then claimed "Blah blah blah you don't want to talk about it" Gosh. The fact is, if you oppose military rule, then the next option is dialogue. You can call it all want you, but it still remains what it is - a dialogue. Now I am asking you again . . . Do you propose we a state negotiate with a criminal elements?

Your narrow minded view focuses on MEND, while I look at the larger picture. the Niger Delta issue when resolved will take care of MEND as well, and no dialogue is not what I propose. Socio-economic development of the deprived areas is the key - what ever shape or form that takes is up to the players to decide.

See above. Please stop window dressing. Saudi and Nigeria have similar issues. Issues that can have impact on the out of oil from those counteries - Only that Nigeria is already seen this happened, and threats of many more to come. Saudi on the other hand have managed to deal with this via having properly trained forces and outfit. Plus other things off course.

Again, you see this as a primarily military issue, I don't. Call it window dressing, I call it going to the root cause - why is there militancy in the Niger Delta? Is the reason the same as that in Saudi Arabia? NO - if you fail to focus on the root of the problem, an solution cannot be devised.

What is effective to you? Carpet bombing a region filled with civilians? [b]Effective, yet our oil output have dropped? [/b]Effective and we have kidnapping and extortion still going on by the criminal elements? I suppose effective in your dictionary means beating the crap out of civilians? If so, I dread to see your definition of ineffective and poorly trained.

As I mentioned earlier, military action cannot solve the problem in the Niger Delta, even with the greatest set of commandos the world has ever seen. In that regard, you CANNOT solve the problem that way.

Besides, till most of the criminal elements are subdued, they will have some ability to affect oil output. In the areas where the military has swept clean, oil activities have recommenced. Even when the above is successful, socio-economic issues (e.g Ogoni shutting Shell production with NO violence on Ogoni's part) can and will reduce oil production, highlighting my assertion that this is not a primarily military problem.

debosky:

Last I checked, the quote function has not been disabled - kindly quote where I did this.

I refuse to do your work for you.  You posted it. Fact. But, am guessing you easily missed that? How convenient!

How is it word play?  EVERY ARMY has room for improvement - does that automatically mean every army is poorly trained?  YOU El Raz can improve your training, does that mean you are poorly trained at the moment? Binary thinking can be dangerous - there is more than one possible outcomes when there is room for improvement.

Here we go again. On comparison to the aforementioned forces, they are poorly trained. Seriously, how hard is that? For example comparing Nigeria's league to the Premiership would leave anyone with any scope of thought that Nigeria's league is poor on comparison.

The point is the opponents - the rebels in Liberia and the Somalis, neither obeyed rules of war - by that measure, rule of war is not a distinguishing factor between the US forces and Nigerian forces and cannot be used to buttress any claims to levels of training or equipment.

What is all of these got to do with my original point? I fail to compute.

Mr word play - you are the person introducing the distinction between the taliban and the afghan people, while in MY post, my use of afghan simply implied whomever the US was fighting in Afghanistan, including combatants and innocents. There is no grasping there - unless both civilians and combatants have NOT been killed, the point stands.

Hahaha. You lumped everything together for your vague point. I merely pointed out the obvious - US V Taliban and not US V Afghans like you painted. Here you go again making unsubstantial/baseless claims. How is the US fighting the Innocents? The US forces are fighting Taliban. And as we all know, in every wars, there would be innocents killed. That is not the same as the US setting out deliberately to kill the innocents.
Maybe using examples closer to home may let you see - Nigerian forces are after MEND and not Nigerians. Get it? It is that simple.

Yes the question was about Afghanistan, but it is pertinent to note the precise combat zones (e.g Helmand) within the country so as not to give an impression that the WHOLE country engulfed by fighting, which was the context for introducing the examples in the first place.

Yawn. For how long more can you move the goal post? If the question is about Afghan [and Iraq] then stick to the question I asked and stop posting "leading answers". It does nothing but drags the attention away from the original question. . Before we lose the point again, allow me to bring it back. Afghan and Iraq are bigger and as such mistakes [not condoning it] would be made. On comparison to issues at ND 7000 troops should have the logistics and manpower to know where a hospital is, especially in a small region like the ND. I suppose mistakes do happen too, but on a small area like this, then it goes to highlight the ill equipped forces we call the Nigeria Army.

Bigger and more weapons - does that make an Army better? According to you, Ghana is smaller and better than us so how does this stand up to your previous claim?

Don't be daft. My original post is that "even Ghana have a better reconnaissance unit than us . . . due to smaller size and hence able to afford better training". Where in my statement did I mentioned that Ghana Army/military is better than that of Nigeria? Are you imagining things again? LMAO.

Regarding 'experience', apart from getting whupped serially by the Israelis, what wars have the Egyptians fought and lived to tell the tale? In terms of peacekeeping and restoration of democracy, how many countries have they liberated (Nigeria can count Liberia and Sierra Leone, yes not solo but an integral part of the effort) from rebel forces?
Have you heard of good - better- best? 

Any nation who had a fight with one of the most feared armies in the world and lived to tell the tales is a worthy opponent in my book. They have had a few wars than us. Fact. Battle of Suez and all that.
Any nation that have had extensive training the the US and have fought the IDF in the past is something I wont sniff at.

On comparison, Nigeria haven't not had any of these.

You keep banging on about Peace keeping force. Please give me a break. Nigeria opted to be a dominate force and seek a greater role during the days of the ECOMOG. It do not in any way make them a force to be reckon with. Even the rebels kept them at bay for 9months or so in Sierra.

Even if A is better equipped than B, does it mean B is poorly equipped?  The original point is that we are not poorly equipped to meet our needs - others might have better equipment, but we have adequate (albeit not superlative) equipment levels.

We are poorly equipped. Period. Time and time again, this have been pointed out. Even some of the guns are so dated. Look it up yourself.

Your narrow minded view focuses on MEND, while I look at the larger picture. the Niger Delta issue when resolved will take care of MEND as well, and no dialogue is not what I propose. Socio-economic development of the deprived areas  is the key - what ever shape or form that takes is up to the players to decide.

Dealing with the topic at hand is being narrow-minded. Then I guess trolling and moving goal post in your book must be intelligence. A nation cannot be held down by a bunch of criminals. These group do not represent anyone but their very own pocket.

Again, you see this as a primarily military issue, I don't. Call it window dressing, I call it going to the root cause - why is there militancy in the Niger Delta? Is the reason the same as that in Saudi Arabia? NO - if you fail to focus on the root of the problem, an solution cannot be devised.


As I mentioned earlier, military action cannot solve the problem in the Niger Delta, even with the greatest set of commandos the world has ever seen. In that regard, you CANNOT solve the problem that way.

See above.

I believe military action can go a long way with MEND IF our men are properly trained. They are too ill equipped to do the job at hand.

Besides, till most of the criminal elements are subdued, they will have some ability to affect oil output. In the areas where the military has swept clean, oil activities have recommenced. Even when the above is successful, socio-economic issues (e.g Ogoni shutting Shell production with NO violence on Ogoni's part) can and will reduce oil production, highlighting my assertion that this is not a primarily military problem.

Say what? I fail to see how Nigeria's oil out put will fall if not because of criminals like MEND sabotaging our country's honey pot.

ElRazur:

I refuse to do your work for you.  You posted it. Fact. But, am guessing you easily missed that? How convenient!

You make a claim, back it up - that's how things are supposed to work.

Here we go again. On comparison to the aforementioned forces, they are poorly trained. Seriously, how hard is that? For example comparing Nigeria's league to the Premiership would leave anyone with any scope of thought that Nigeria's league is poor on comparison.

I disagree with that assertion, and you have nothing to prove it.

Hahaha. You lumped everything together for your vague point. I merely pointed out the obvious - US V Taliban and not US V Afghans like you painted. Here you go again making unsubstantial/baseless claims. How is the US fighting the Innocents? The US forces are fighting Taliban. And as we all know, in every wars, there would be innocents killed. That is not the same as the US setting out deliberately to kill the innocents.
Maybe using examples closer to home may let you see - Nigerian forces are after MEND and not Nigerians. Get it? It is that simple.

Again, by mentioning Afghanistan, the taliban aspect is implicitly included. Your separation achieves nothing here. Again, back to the point - innocents have been killed by the US in pursuit of the taliban, just as innocents have been killed by Nigeria in pursuit of MEND. No distinction can be made about training/equipment levels based on the fact that innocents are killed like you tried to do earlier.

Yawn. For how long more can you move the goal post? If the question is about Afghan [and Iraq] then stick to the question I asked and stop posting "leading answers". It does nothing but drags the attention away from the original question. . Before we lose the point again, allow me to bring it back. Afghan and Iraq are bigger and as such mistakes [not condoning it] would be made. On comparison to issues at ND 7000 troops should have the logistics and manpower to know where a hospital is, especially in a small region like the ND. I suppose mistakes do happen too, but on a small area like this, then it goes to highlight the ill equipped forces we call the Nigeria Army.

This is all relative - mistakes are made everywhere and you will be making a highly subjective judgment to draw any conclusions from hopsitals being hit. I don't think this point proves anything. A mistake can be made in any theatre of war, even if small by the best of armies.

Don't be daft. My original post is that "even Ghana have a better reconnaissance unit than us . . . due to smaller size and hence able to afford better training". Where in my statement did I mentioned that Ghana Army/military is better than that of Nigeria? Are you imagining things again? LMAO.

My bad then, is Ghana better than Nigeria? Let us know so we can decide to keep/discard that point.

Any nation who had a fight with one of the most feared armies in the world and lived to tell the tales is a worthy opponent in my book. They have had a few wars than us. Fact. Battle of Suez and all that.
Any nation that have had extensive training the the US and have fought the IDF in the past is something I wont sniff at.

YAWN, extensive training with no victories - they got whupped in the battle of Suez did they not? 
Fighting and losing is now something not to be sniffed at?  What a high standard.

On comparison, Nigeria haven't not had any of these.

No doubt we haven't - but have we excelled at what we have had? YES and that is indisputable.

You keep banging on about Peace keeping force. Please give me a break. Nigeria opted to be a dominate force and seek a greater role during the days of the ECOMOG. It do not in any way make them a force to be reckon with. Even the rebels kept them at bay for 9months or so in Sierra.

The examples remain valid - I see you have nothing but defeats for your vaunted 'better equipped forces'. I like concrete examples. The fact remains that in our theatre of operations, we have excelled and dominated. It is irrefutable.

We are poorly equipped. Period. Time and time again, this have been pointed out. Even some of the guns are so dated. Look it up yourself.

The Egyptians have dated guns as well, does that make them poorly equipped? I disagree we are poorly equipped. Time and time again, we have been the primary supplier of weapons and vehicles to field engagements in Africa and have prevailed. Provide evidence apart from anecdotal references.

Dealing with the topic at hand is being narrow-minded. Then I guess trolling and moving goal post in your book must be intelligence. A nation cannot be held down by a bunch of criminals. These group do not represent anyone but their very own pocket. See above.

MEND is not the problem of the Niger Delta -viewing it as such is narrow minded. Regardless of their personal motivation, the general state of the ND allows them to foster and grow.

I believe military action can go a long way with MEND IF our men are properly trained. They are too ill equipped to do the job at hand.

I disagree. The rebel bases destroyed over the past few days are not new discoveries - there has been no political will to neutralise MEND. If in a week two bases could be destroyed, it shows that given the freedom to operate as they want to, the threat from MEND will be greatly reduced. The key is the inevitable backlash against the FG which it seeks to avoid.

Say what? I fail to see how Nigeria's oil out put will fall if not because of criminals like MEND sabotaging our country's honey pot.  

Let me help you see

Oil production stopped in Ogoniland in 1993 when Shell was forced to cease operations amid mass protests and repression by security forces that earned Mr Saro-Wiwa near sainthood status in the eyes of many human rights groups, and tainted the company with one of its worst public relations disasters.

LINK

So you see - this isn't just about guns in case you haven't gotten that yet.

I have maintained that the present crop of corrupt leaders in this country will fare better than the younger generation of educated Nigerians and the reason is simple - we find it supremely difficult to accept our mistakes when they are pointed out and instead we would rather go to war than say "my mistake".

Is Nigerian Army poorly equipped? I don't think so.

Is there any room for improvement? Yes, just like every other country in the world.

Is Nigerian Army better equipped than US Army? No, in my opinion. Because they produce arms and invest a lot in weaponry, research and development

Is Egyptian Army better equipped than Nigerian Army? I don't know and unless someone has hard facts on what the 2 countries have no one can state categorically state that one is better equipped than the other since the 2 countries purchase arms from other nations.

Let us learn to agree or disagree on issues without making the issues very impossible to debate.

This is what millitary training should be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs

see how a real soldier should be training. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7086093695878182844

Now I know why they are so animalistic.

Military training is never pretty anywhere in the world.

biina:

Military training is never pretty anywhere in the world.

I so much agree with you. but don't you think this type of "training" is just so dangerous? I mean I don't think hard rock and delicate heads go together. besides, what will a sort of exercise like that train you for?

davidif:

see how a real soldier should be training. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7086093695878182844

why're you posting navy seals stuff. I heard they're wuss compared to the army

why're you posting navy seals stuff. I heard they're wuss compared to the army

@oyinda
WHAT?!?! ARE YOU HIGH. I AM GOING TO PRETEND THAT I DIDN'T JUST READ THAT.

Even if they use bottle on your head na training.

wow it looks like a ninja camp, yeah its the academy right, planting kena

hello, please where did u get these pictures from?, are they really NDA pictures?, i intend to resume there very soon, please tell me more about it, can i have ur e mail address?,

You guys are amazing. For heaven's sake that is the Nigeria Defense Academy, a military institution, NOT a holiday camp. Exercises like that are designed to instill discipline, weed out the weak, and is definitely not meant for whiners and sissies. If u don't like it, then go join the boys scout or other sissy groups, and leave the NDA alone.

You guys are amazing. For heaven's sake that is the Nigeria Defense Academy, a military institution, NOT a holiday camp. Exercises like that are designed to instill discipline, weed out the weak, and is definitely not meant for whiners and sissies. If u don't like it, then go join the boys scout or other sissy groups, and leave the NDA alone.

They should be learning millitary tactics and sophisticated manoeuvres not planting. No wonder, too even quell an insurgency in the Delta they can't or even a little insurrection by a small cult in the North they can't, they have to be shooting indiscriminately at everybody.

Look, our millitary boys are very very poorly trained and planting is not going to transform these guys into the green berets, real training would.

rotflmao. training ko.

rotflmao. training ko.

O fi won le, awon oni yeye.

I'm sure that those in that picture may have commited an offense or so, and we all know that the military comes down hard on that so as to instill discipline among the cadets/ future officers.