Papist:

My brother I feel like you were very poorly cathechised. Please take no offence, I don't mean this as an insult because I was also very poorly cathechised. I however learnt more about the spiritual riches of the Catholic faith through my own studies online. The Catholic faith is not about the Priest and his sermons. The Catholic faith is about celebrating the Sacrifice of Christ, celebrating the Holy Body and Blood that Christ gave for us for our salvation. Holy Mass is not Sunday school or Protestant services where Bible verses are picked randomly and explained. Mass is the supreme act of worship to God and should therefore be taken to be completely different from the Bible lectures you hear from Pastors. I'm sure you know that a Priest can even celebrate Mass alone. Therefore when we go to Mass we are fed not the Priest's sermon…but the Holy Body and Blood of the Lord. Hope this helps.

Relate this with biblical references. Without true understanding of His Word, how can you worship Him. I ll advise you to leave catholic materials a little and just study the bible. I was the best in my catechism. I could give you so many catholic links but I decided to look at the bible a little longer. Study the bible alone and pray about it then come and reply.

Ubenedictus:
D BIBLE is full of rituals and doctrine. if dat scare u mayb u should check if u want to be a xtian.

What did u think Christ did when he came on earth? You think Christianity is just hinged on rituals and doctrines. Goan read up what was said about justification by grace and not by law on Romans. Read bible!!!!!!! Not only red catechism book.

Papist:

It is difficult to find spiritual fulfillment in the Catholic Church? This is surprising considering the spiritual richness found in the Catholic Church. From the Liturgy of the Hours, the litanies, the devotions to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Benediction, Adoration, the prayers of the Saints, the liturgical seasons, the feast days etc. You can't find this anywhere else except in the Orthodox Churches.

Until you have scriptural backings for all the above you are playing religion which my Bishop described as man's personal efforts to get it right with God.

In winners there's no religion but pure Christianity... Blood sprinkling or passover blood to feet washing

driy65:
see dis fool...u jst a waste of space...go play eif ur dog...cos u nt even beta dan dem...ewu gambia...ekpa...mad he-goat...i ready 4 u...u quoted mi 1st...u neva chim chum i go deal wif u...u beta jst die nw cox wen i finish wif u...na otapiapia u go drink..product of a broken home...i pity ur parents thy feel dey av a child...a teddy is even beta dan u...NUISSANCE

correct....haha
ds is more like wat I wanted to hear.. oya continue, don't stop.
show the world wat u are.

Thelma110:


When u'r offered the holy communion, what does the priest say to you? Quit trying to discredit the Catholic Church just because u decided to leave. Worship wherever you "See the light".

Jesus gave both and instructed that we do same, abi?

Thelma110:


When u'r offered the holy communion, what does the priest say to you? Quit trying to discredit the Catholic Church just because u decided to leave. Worship wherever you "See the light".

Jesus gave both and instructed that we do same, abi or he merged them?

The life of the flesh is in the blood.

chidexxy007:
correct....haha ds is more like wat I wanted to hear.. oya continue, don't stop. show the world wat i am.

fixed

driy65:
fixed

keep fixing other people's post while ur head is going nuts.. no go fix ur life..

Themandator:


Until you have scriptural backings for all the above you are playing religion which my Bishop described as man's personal efforts to get it right with God.

In winners there's no religion but pure Christianity... Blood sprinkling or passover blood to feet washing

what is religion and what is christianity, which is a subset of which? Don't confuse yourself in trying to justify a way of worshipping God.

Larryfly:


What did u think Christ did when he came on earth? You think Christianity is just hinged on rituals and doctrines. Goan read up what was said about justification by grace and not by law on Romans. Read bible!!!!!!! Not only red catechism book.

justification by grace is a doctrine!!! so u don't know that? it is a strong point in catholic theology.

i read my bible, romans is a favourite book for me, i enjoy it, justification is also a favorite topic, d catholic church has been teaching justification by grace 1500yrs before u guys came along i am suprised u are trying to bring it up as if it is new.

justification by grace is a doctrine, that is how ritual in christianity have power, rm 6 show a good example of how grace affect ritual, "all who were baptised into christ were baptised into his death" that passage links d rituals of baptism to d death of Jesus i.e d source of grace.

Larryfly:



Relate this with biblical references. Without true understanding of His Word, how can you worship Him. I ll advise you to leave catholic materials a little and just study the bible. I was the best in my catechism. I could give you so many catholic links but I decided to look at the bible a little longer. Study the bible alone and pray about it then come and reply.

'UNLESS U EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD U SHALL HAVE NO LIFE IN U' he wu eats my flesh and drink my blood same shall live by me.

U still following?

tommysparks:
what is religion and what is christianity, which is a subset of which? Don't confuse yourself in trying to justify a way of worshipping God.

Until you have scriptural backings for..... Where God said 'do this now and forever' you are practicing religion.... Man made rituals that hopes to gain God's attention... If you exempt yourself from eating meat on a particular day and there is no bible support for your action you're only hoping that the action wins you divine favour.

God is only committed to his word. He Instituted the blood of sprinkling.... ,Exo 12v 14 ‘So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance, feet washing, communion and preaching the gospel of salvation as a means of liberating the captives.

Christianity is living and acting like Jesus Christ;religion is living and acting according to the precepts of men.... There's no set and subset as they are mutually exclusive

Ubenedictus:
'UNLESS U EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD U SHALL HAVE NO LIFE IN U' he wu eats my flesh and drink my blood same shall live by me.

U still following?

Thanks my brother. God bless you.

Larryfly:



Relate this with biblical references. Without true understanding of His Word, how can you worship Him. I ll advise you to leave catholic materials a little and just study the bible. I was the best in my catechism. I could give you so many catholic links but I decided to look at the bible a little longer. Study the bible alone and pray about it then come and reply.

Did brother Ubenedictus' response satisfy you?

Ubenedictus:
'UNLESS U EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD U SHALL HAVE NO LIFE IN U' he wu eats my flesh and drink my blood same shall live by me.

U still following?

Thanks my brother. God bless you.

Themandator:


Until you have scriptural backings for all the above you are playing religion which my Bishop described as man's personal efforts to get it right with God.

In winners there's no religion but pure Christianity... Blood sprinkling or passover blood to feet washing

If I may ask…who is your bishop? Has he been ordained in the succession of the Holy Apostles? If not then he is not a bishop, no offence. I will quote Tertullian here for you:

"But if there be any [heresies] which are
bold enough to plant [their origin] in the
midst of the apostolic age, that they may
thereby seem to have been handed down
by the apostles, because they existed in
the time of the apostles, we can say: Let
them produce the original records of their
churches; let them unfold the roll of their
bishops, running down in due succession
from the beginning in such a manner that
[their first] bishop shall be able to show
for his ordainer and predecessor some
one of the apostles or of apostolic men—
a man, moreover, who continued steadfast
with the apostles. For this is the manner
in which the apostolic churches transmit
their registers: as the church of Smyrna,
which records that Polycarp was placed
therein by John; as also the church of
Rome, which makes Clement to have been
ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid.,
32).
"But should they even effect the
contrivance [of composing a succession
list for themselves], they will not advance
a step. For their very doctrine, after
comparison with that of the apostles [as
contained in other churches], will declare,
by its own diversity and contrariety, that it
had for its author neither an apostle nor
an apostolic man; because, as the
apostles would never have taught things
which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

Papist:

If I may ask…who is your bishop? Has he been ordained in the succession of the Holy Apostles? If not then he is not a bishop, no offence. I will quote Tertullian here for you:

"But if there be any [heresies] which are
bold enough to plant [their origin] in the
midst of the apostolic age, that they may
thereby seem to have been handed down
by the apostles, because they existed in
the time of the apostles, we can say: Let
them produce the original records of their
churches; let them unfold the roll of their
bishops, running down in due succession
from the beginning in such a manner that
[their first] bishop shall be able to show
for his ordainer and predecessor some
one of the apostles or of apostolic men—
a man, moreover, who continued steadfast
with the apostles. For this is the manner
in which the apostolic churches transmit
their registers: as the church of Smyrna,
which records that Polycarp was placed
therein by John; as also the church of
Rome, which makes Clement to have been
ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid.,
32).
"But should they even effect the
contrivance [of composing a succession
list for themselves], they will not advance
a step. For their very doctrine, after
comparison with that of the apostles [as
contained in other churches], will declare,
by its own diversity and contrariety, that it
had for its author neither an apostle nor
an apostolic man; because, as the
apostles would never have taught things
which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

Another precept of men.... Until you have biblical support you're practicing the laws of men.... God tore the temple curtain therby giving access to all who seek.


The scripture is the only guide for Christianity. The doctrine of the apostles are to be found in the acts of the Holy Spirit through them in Acts book of the Bible.... Any other is the doctrine of men... If it is not in the Bible it is not God and God is not committed to upholding such hence the gradual collapse of religion

Themandator:



Another precept of men.... Until you have biblical support you're practicing the laws of men.... God tore the temple curtain therby giving access to all who seek.


The scripture is the only guide for Christianity. The doctrine of the apostles are to be found in the acts of the Holy Spirit through them in Acts book of the Bible.... Any other is the doctrine of men... If it is not in the Bible it is not God and God is not committed to upholding such hence the gradual collapse of religion

The guide for Christianity according to the Bible is not the Bible but the Church. 1 Timothy 3:15:

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself in
the house of God, which is the church of
the living God, the pillar and ground of the
truth.”

Papist:

The guide for Christianity according to the Bible is not the Bible but the Church. 1 Timothy 3:15:

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself in
the house of God, which is the church of
the living God, the pillar and ground of the
truth.”

Start from the beginning. When in doubt, start from the beginning....

These things write I unto thee(what are the things?go to the beginning.... Qualifications for the position of a bishop, deacon) hoping to come unto thee shortly: but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave (chose leadership) yself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:14-15 KJVA.... If it is not in the Bible, it is either satanic or man made... Nature is against a vacuum

BTW, this passage, from the beginning, is at variance with your submission on qualifications for the position of a bishop.... You quoted one extraneous source or rather authority.

Themandator:


Start from the beginning. When in doubt, start from the beginning....

These things write I unto thee(what are the things?go to the beginning.... Qualifications for the position of a bishop, deacon) hoping to come unto thee shortly: but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave (chose leadership) yself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:14-15 KJVA.... If it is not in the Bible, it is either satanic or man made... Nature is against a vacuum

BTW, this passage, from the beginning, is at variance with your submission on qualifications for the position of a bishop.... You quoted one extraneous source or rather authority.

St Paul says to St Timothy:

"[W]hat you have heard from me before
many witnesses entrust to faithful men
who will be able to teach others also" (2
Tim. 2:2). And the early fathers of the church all agree with St Paul.



Pope Clement I
"Through countryside and city [the
apostles] preached, and they appointed
their earliest converts, testing them by the
Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of
future believers. Nor was this a novelty,
for bishops and deacons had been written
about a long time earlier. . . . Our
apostles knew through our Lord Jesus
Christ that there would be strife for the
office of bishop. For this reason, therefore,
having received perfect foreknowledge,
they appointed those who have already
been mentioned and afterwards added the
further provision that, if they should die,
other approved men should succeed to
their ministry" ( Letter to the Corinthians
42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
Hegesippus
"When I had come to Rome, I [visited]
Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus.
And after Anicetus [died], Soter
succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In
each succession and in each city there is
a continuance of that which is proclaimed
by the law, the prophets, and the
Lord" ( Memoirs , cited in Eusebius,
Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
Irenaeus
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every
church, who may wish to know the truth,
to contemplate the tradition of the
apostles which has been made known to
us throughout the whole world. And we
are in a position to enumerate those who
were instituted bishops by the apostles
and their successors down to our own
times, men who neither knew nor taught
anything like what these heretics rave
about" ( Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189])
.
"But since it would be too long to
enumerate in such a volume as this the
successions of all the churches, we shall
confound all those who, in whatever
manner, whether through self-satisfaction
or vainglory, or through blindness and
wicked opinion, assemble other than
where it is proper, by pointing out here
the successions of the bishops of the
greatest and most ancient church known
to all, founded and organized at Rome by
the two most glorious apostles, Peter and
Paul—that church which has the tradition
and the faith with which comes down to
us after having been announced to men
by the apostles. For with this Church,
because of its superior origin, all
churches must agree, that is, all the
faithful in the whole world. And it is in her
that the faithful everywhere have
maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid.,
3:3:2).
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by
apostles, and conversed with many who
had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles
in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in
Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early
youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long
time, and, when a very old man, gloriously
and most nobly suffering martyrdom,
departed this life, having always taught
the things which he had learned from the
apostles, and which the Church has
handed down, and which alone are true.
To these things all the Asiatic churches
testify, as do also those men who have
succeeded Polycarp down to the present
time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is
not necessary to seek the truth among
others which it is easy to obtain from the
Church; since the apostles, like a rich
man [depositing his money] in a bank,
lodged in her hands most copiously all
things pertaining to the truth, so that
every man, whosoever will, can draw from
her the water of life. . . . For how stands
the case? Suppose there arise a dispute
relative to some important question
among us, should we not have recourse
to the most ancient churches with which
the apostles held constant conversation,
and learn from them what is certain and
clear in regard to the present
question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters
who are in the Church—those who, as I
have shown, possess the succession from
the apostles; those who, together with the
succession of the episcopate, have
received the infallible charism of truth,
according to the good pleasure of the
Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold
in suspicion others who depart from the
primitive succession, and assemble
themselves together in any place
whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse
minds, or as schismatics puffed up and
self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites,
acting thus for the sake of lucre and
vainglory. For all these have fallen from
the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the
apostles, and the ancient organization of
the Church throughout the whole world,
and the manifestation of the body of
Christ according to the succession of
bishops, by which succession the bishops
have handed down the Church which is
found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:.
Tertullian
"[The apostles] founded churches in every
city, from which all the other churches,
one after another, derived the tradition of
the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and
are every day deriving them, that they may
become churches. Indeed, it is on this
account only that they will be able to
deem themselves apostolic, as being the
offspring of apostolic churches. Every
sort of thing must necessarily revert to its
original for its classification. Therefore the
churches, although they are so many and
so great, comprise but the one primitive
Church, [founded] by the apostles, from
which they all [spring]. In this way, all are
primitive, and all are apostolic, while they
are all proved to be one in
unity" ( Demurrer Against the Heretics 20
[A.D. 200]).
"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to
them [the apostles] can, as I must here
likewise prescribe, properly be proved in
no other way than by those very churches
which the apostles founded in person, by
declaring the gospel to them directly
themselves . . . If then these things are
so, it is in the same degree manifest that
all doctrine which agrees with the
apostolic churches—those molds and
original sources of the faith must be
reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly
containing that which the churches
received from the apostles, the apostles
from Christ, [and] Christ from God.
Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged
as false which savors of contrariety to the
truth of the churches and apostles of
Christ and God. It remains, then, that we
demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours,
of which we have now given the rule, has
its origin in the tradition of the apostles,
and whether all other doctrines do not
ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid.,
21).
"But if there be any [heresies] which are
bold enough to plant [their origin] in the
midst of the apostolic age, that they may
thereby seem to have been handed down
by the apostles, because they existed in
the time of the apostles, we can say: Let
them produce the original records of their
churches; let them unfold the roll of their
bishops, running down in due succession
from the beginning in such a manner that
[their first] bishop shall be able to show
for his ordainer and predecessor some
one of the apostles or of apostolic men—
a man, moreover, who continued steadfast
with the apostles. For this is the manner
in which the apostolic churches transmit
their registers: as the church of Smyrna,
which records that Polycarp was placed
therein by John; as also the church of
Rome, which makes Clement to have been
ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid.,
32).
"But should they even effect the
contrivance [of composing a succession
list for themselves], they will not advance
a step. For their very doctrine, after
comparison with that of the apostles [as
contained in other churches], will declare,
by its own diversity and contrariety, that it
had for its author neither an apostle nor
an apostolic man; because, as the
apostles would never have taught things
which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).
"Then let all the heresies, when
challenged to these two tests by our
apostolic Church, offer their proof of how
they deem themselves to be apostolic.
But in truth they neither are so, nor are
they able to prove themselves to be what
they are not. Nor are they admitted to
peaceful relations and communion by
such churches as are in any way
connected with apostles, inasmuch as
they are in no sense themselves apostolic
because of their diversity as to the
mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one,
cannot be both within and without. For if
she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was
not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was
with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop
[of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination,
and whom, beside the honor of the
priesthood the Lord glorified also with
martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church;
nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who,
succeeding to no one, and despising the
evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang
from himself. For he who has not been
ordained in the Church can neither have
nor hold to the Church in any
way" ( Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).

I earlier stated that when in doubt, it is always advised to go to the beginning.

Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus...... The grace is obtainable by knowing who he is and that is only possible through the word.. The BIBLE .....And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses....the things..... The teachings.... The proceedings.... The miracles..... , the same commit thou ......teach same.... Instruct same..... to faithful men.....faithful men..... Believers..... Any believer not just the aboriginal ones...., who shall be able....capacity or anointing for impartation...... to teach others also.
2 Timothy 2:1-2 KJV

1 Tim 3 has already dealt with qualities of a Bishop and Deacons... So I assume you are defending your earlier statement that the church and not the bible is the only guide for Christianity. .....Everything written in the Bible is written for us as an example and guide ....Romans 15v4


The Acts of the Apostles are properly and sufficiently documented in the Bible... As a guide to all believers and your post made it clear that if it is not found in the original instructions if the apostles it is not part of it and the original instructions are in the Bible.

Any thing outside ...practices like avoiding meat on a supposedly Good Friday,rubbing ash on our foreheads and bowing and praying before images or statues are not recorded as acts of the apostles and therefore religion

Papist:

St Paul says to St Timothy:

"[W]hat you have heard from me before
many witnesses entrust to faithful men
who will be able to teach others also" (2
Tim. 2:2). And the early fathers of the church all agree with St Paul.



Pope Clement I
"Through countryside and city [the
apostles] preached, and they appointed
their earliest converts, testing them by the
Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of
future believers. Nor was this a novelty,
for bishops and deacons had been written
about a long time earlier. . . . Our
apostles knew through our Lord Jesus
Christ that there would be strife for the
office of bishop. For this reason, therefore,
having received perfect foreknowledge,
they appointed those who have already
been mentioned and afterwards added the
further provision that, if they should die,
other approved men should succeed to
their ministry" ( Letter to the Corinthians
42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
Hegesippus
"When I had come to Rome, I [visited]
Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus.
And after Anicetus [died], Soter
succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In
each succession and in each city there is
a continuance of that which is proclaimed
by the law, the prophets, and the
Lord" ( Memoirs , cited in Eusebius,
Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
Irenaeus
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every
church, who may wish to know the truth,
to contemplate the tradition of the
apostles which has been made known to
us throughout the whole world. And we
are in a position to enumerate those who
were instituted bishops by the apostles
and their successors down to our own
times, men who neither knew nor taught
anything like what these heretics rave
about" ( Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189])
.
"But since it would be too long to
enumerate in such a volume as this the
successions of all the churches, we shall
confound all those who, in whatever
manner, whether through self-satisfaction
or vainglory, or through blindness and
wicked opinion, assemble other than
where it is proper, by pointing out here
the successions of the bishops of the
greatest and most ancient church known
to all, founded and organized at Rome by
the two most glorious apostles, Peter and
Paul—that church which has the tradition
and the faith with which comes down to
us after having been announced to men
by the apostles. For with this Church,
because of its superior origin, all
churches must agree, that is, all the
faithful in the whole world. And it is in her
that the faithful everywhere have
maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid.,
3:3:2).
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by
apostles, and conversed with many who
had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles
in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in
Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early
youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long
time, and, when a very old man, gloriously
and most nobly suffering martyrdom,
departed this life, having always taught
the things which he had learned from the
apostles, and which the Church has
handed down, and which alone are true.
To these things all the Asiatic churches
testify, as do also those men who have
succeeded Polycarp down to the present
time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is
not necessary to seek the truth among
others which it is easy to obtain from the
Church; since the apostles, like a rich
man [depositing his money] in a bank,
lodged in her hands most copiously all
things pertaining to the truth, so that
every man, whosoever will, can draw from
her the water of life. . . . For how stands
the case? Suppose there arise a dispute
relative to some important question
among us, should we not have recourse
to the most ancient churches with which
the apostles held constant conversation,
and learn from them what is certain and
clear in regard to the present
question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters
who are in the Church—those who, as I
have shown, possess the succession from
the apostles; those who, together with the
succession of the episcopate, have
received the infallible charism of truth,
according to the good pleasure of the
Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold
in suspicion others who depart from the
primitive succession, and assemble
themselves together in any place
whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse
minds, or as schismatics puffed up and
self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites,
acting thus for the sake of lucre and
vainglory. For all these have fallen from
the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the
apostles, and the ancient organization of
the Church throughout the whole world,
and the manifestation of the body of
Christ according to the succession of
bishops, by which succession the bishops
have handed down the Church which is
found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:.
Tertullian
"[The apostles] founded churches in every
city, from which all the other churches,
one after another, derived the tradition of
the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and
are every day deriving them, that they may
become churches. Indeed, it is on this
account only that they will be able to
deem themselves apostolic, as being the
offspring of apostolic churches. Every
sort of thing must necessarily revert to its
original for its classification. Therefore the
churches, although they are so many and
so great, comprise but the one primitive
Church, [founded] by the apostles, from
which they all [spring]. In this way, all are
primitive, and all are apostolic, while they
are all proved to be one in
unity" ( Demurrer Against the Heretics 20
[A.D. 200]).
"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to
them [the apostles] can, as I must here
likewise prescribe, properly be proved in
no other way than by those very churches
which the apostles founded in person, by
declaring the gospel to them directly
themselves . . . If then these things are
so, it is in the same degree manifest that
all doctrine which agrees with the
apostolic churches—those molds and
original sources of the faith must be
reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly
containing that which the churches
received from the apostles, the apostles
from Christ, [and] Christ from God.
Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged
as false which savors of contrariety to the
truth of the churches and apostles of
Christ and God. It remains, then, that we
demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours,
of which we have now given the rule, has
its origin in the tradition of the apostles,
and whether all other doctrines do not
ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid.,
21).
"But if there be any [heresies] which are
bold enough to plant [their origin] in the
midst of the apostolic age, that they may
thereby seem to have been handed down
by the apostles, because they existed in
the time of the apostles, we can say: Let
them produce the original records of their
churches; let them unfold the roll of their
bishops, running down in due succession
from the beginning in such a manner that
[their first] bishop shall be able to show
for his ordainer and predecessor some
one of the apostles or of apostolic men—
a man, moreover, who continued steadfast
with the apostles. For this is the manner
in which the apostolic churches transmit
their registers: as the church of Smyrna,
which records that Polycarp was placed
therein by John; as also the church of
Rome, which makes Clement to have been
ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid.,
32).
"But should they even effect the
contrivance [of composing a succession
list for themselves], they will not advance
a step. For their very doctrine, after
comparison with that of the apostles [as
contained in other churches], will declare,
by its own diversity and contrariety, that it
had for its author neither an apostle nor
an apostolic man; because, as the
apostles would never have taught things
which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).
"Then let all the heresies, when
challenged to these two tests by our
apostolic Church, offer their proof of how
they deem themselves to be apostolic.
But in truth they neither are so, nor are
they able to prove themselves to be what
they are not. Nor are they admitted to
peaceful relations and communion by
such churches as are in any way
connected with apostles, inasmuch as
they are in no sense themselves apostolic
because of their diversity as to the
mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one,
cannot be both within and without. For if
she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was
not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was
with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop
[of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination,
and whom, beside the honor of the
priesthood the Lord glorified also with
martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church;
nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who,
succeeding to no one, and despising the
evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang
from himself. For he who has not been
ordained in the Church can neither have
nor hold to the Church in any
way" ( Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).