~Lady~:

One more time where did I say the serpent IS worshipped?
David read my post very well, and show me which one says the Serpent IS worshipped?


It is always good to conveniently miss things in others posts.

You forgot the part about [size=16pt]ACCORDING TO BOBBYAF[/size]

Seriously it wouldn't hurt to actually read before you pop a blood vessel.

bobbyaf made no mention of the serpent until you introduced it. The way you worded it you were simply implies that God Himself also asked the israelites to make a serpent to be used in worship (your own words).

Why was this serpent NEVER mentioned again after verse 9 except to use it as a symbol of Christ's own crucifiction on the cross?

Actually the bronze serpent is mentioned in 2 Kings 18:4, and in those times we see it being USED in Jewish worship.
Please note that being USED in worship is not the same as being worshipped.

The Israelites used it in worship, and then started worshipping it. Before then it was ok in the temple, but when they started worshipping it it became wrong.

davidylan:

bobbyaf made no mention of the serpent until you introduced it. The way you worded it you were simply implies that God Himself also asked the israelites to make a serpent to be used in worship (your own words).

Ok I think you're a bit confused, I made this statement before I started tackling Bobby and started using the bronze serpent as an example. I wasn't even talking about the bronze serpent when I made that statement. That was the first statement I made in this thread and it was directed at Chukwudi and it was to get chukwuddi to ignore Bobbyaf.

You introduced something else into that post.

And since when does being USED in worship equate to BEING worshipped?

~Lady~:

Actually the bronze serpent is mentioned in 2 Kings 18:4, and in those times we see it being USED in Jewish worship.
Please note that being USED in worship is not the same as being worshipped.

The Israelites used it in worship, and then started worshipping it. Before then it was ok in the temple, but when they started worshipping it it became wrong.

verse 7 of 2 Kings 18 indicates that it was never God's intention that the serpent be worshipped.

~Lady~:

Ok I think you're a bit confused, I made this statement before I started tackling Bobby and started using the bronze serpent as an example. I wasn't even talking about the bronze serpent when I made that statement. That was the first statement I made in this thread and it was directed at Chukwudi and it was to get chukwuddi to ignore Bobbyaf.

You introduced something else into that post.

And since when does being USED in worship equate to BEING worshipped?

that's simply because your own posts were downright and deliberately confusing. If you werent talking about the bronze serpent then exactly what were you talking about? what other graven image where you implying that God told the Israelites to build to be used for worship? (your own words).

Again you deliberately try to play dishonest games here . . . what is the difference between using a graven image in worship and worshipping the image? How do you use a graven image to worship?

~Lady~:


Actually the bronze serpent is mentioned in 2 Kings 18:4,

and in those times we see it being USED in Jewish worship.

Please note that being USED in worship is not the same as being worshipped.

The Israelites used it in worship, and then started worshipping it.

Before then it was ok in the temple, but when they started worshipping it it became wrong.

[size=16pt] @^[/size]

Aw cmon off it . . .

What has just been spewed up there? . . .

So the figurines ( i.e. the Virgin Mary effigies) are being used in worship, uh?

and not bowed down to (i.e. not worshipped)?

@ Lady

So why would God command that a graven image be made that will be used in worship?

So who said that looking at the pole with a brazen serpent constituted worship? How do you have the heart to even remotely compare that with bowing down to a statue of Mary beats me.

You redundant question as to why GOD does what He does for His own purpose reveals your lack of understanding of spiritual matters. If God says don't, then for His sake obey. Don't use God's actions that you obviously fail to understand to continue in sin.

A case in point would be when God commands us not to murder, and He then turns around and wipes out a complete nation including children on the breast, must we then murder and use God's actions as a reason to murder?

The difference lies in God being God. His actions need no justifying. He owes us no explanations. Hence if He commands Moses to erect a serpent on a pole for what ever reason how dare you use that action to justify breaking His direct command?

This is exactly what makes you Catholic. Both Clergy and laity have come to think they are bigger than God.

@ Lady

And I guess you're the one that knows the heart of man because you're the one that's telling people that Catholics worship Mary. Do you know my heart and the heart of every Catholic?

I don't even need to know your heart for that do I? If you hail a dead woman that is Idolatry enough,

How do you know God's heart? How do you know he doesn't want representatives? How do you know he wants a direct approach?

Because He commanded Moses to teach His people not to make any images nor to bow down to them. How would you know of such a command when your organization has removed it from the original 10.

Did he use the Priests in the OT and didn't he use prophets to speak to the people?
Why didn't he speak to each individual?

You don't know why? Listen Lady, and listen well. God desires us to come to him directly, meaning when we are worshiping God its a one and one experience, regardless if He ordains priests and prophets. Priests and prophets all serve a purpose as it was then. Today Jesus bids us pray to His Father directly. Neither Jesus nor His disciples taught that we need saints or Mary to intercede for us. As regards the heavenly atonement, Jesus our Hign Priest receives our sins after confession, as the only Mediator between His Father and us.

I specifically remember the Israelites rising up against Moses and they said they too wanted to see and hear God, and when they heard the thunder claps they became afraid and begged Moses to speak to God on their behalf. Why would God be inconsistent in what he wants?

He wasn't being inconsistent lady. You should know that under such circumstances no sinner can literally see God and live. Worshiping and praying to God directly is quite a different matter. One doesn't have to see God literally in order to pray to Him or worship Him.

If the 2nd commandment forbids image carving why did God command the carving of images in the ark of the covenant and the bronze serpent and the specific things he requested to be used to build his temple from Solomon.

Because He knew they were never meant to be used as intermediaries. Besides, no one except the high priest had access to the arc of the covenant.

verse 7 of 2 Kings 18 indicates that it was never God's intention that the serpent be worshipped.

And no where did I state that the serpent was being worshipped.
I said it was being USED in Jewish worship, just as the ark of the covenant was being USED in Jewish worship, and just as the other images in the temple were being USED in Jewish worship.
Stop confusing USED in worship and BEING worshipped. They are two different things.

that's simply because your own posts were downright and deliberately confusing. If you werent talking about the bronze serpent then exactly what were you talking about? what other graven image where you implying that God told the Israelites to build to be used for worship? (your own words).

My posts are not confusing for those who can read and understand the terms being used in the english language.
And not just that, if you had gone through the thread and see what I was replying to you would see that you were completely offbase.
Seriously it wouldn't hurt to be humble and realise that you've done something wrong.
No one else misunderstood but you. That says something David.

As stated above the ark of the covenant which includes the images of the cherubim was used in worship. Infact it was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Imagine a graven image is being overshadowed by God, a graven image he commanded to never be made and then according to your reasoning contradicts himself by commanding graven images to be made.
The Ark was used in the Holy of Holies and couldn't be touched by unordained men. Infact a man was killed for touching it. Why would God treat a graven image in a holy manner? WHy would God command that a graven image be treated with holiness?
It makes no sense.

Also the other images that were used in the temple are as follows.

Read 1 Kings chapter 6-8. Solomon builds God's temple and His Palace and carved images of the cherubim, oxen, and lion and the Lord did not condemn these images used in worship.

what is the difference between using a graven image in worship and worshipping the image? How do you use a graven image to worship?

A graven image used in worship helps one put the focus on God. We are humans with different senses and in worship we use these senses. We use our hearing and our sight and our sense of smell and touch and all that. God gave us our senses I don't see why there'd be a problem with using it to worhsip Him.
Also during early christianity drawings, images, smells and such were the only way to express the Gospel to people. Most of the christians were illiterates and poor. The education isn't what it is today. So they relied on images to portray the message to converts. Even today it is a very effective way of evangelizing.

David the confusion comes in when people do not take into account the entire Bible to understand the meaning of a passage.
of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure."
hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times. later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc). God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped. If he prohibited the use of images during worship he wouldn't have commanded certain images to be used in worship perfect example is the ark of the covenant. You cannot deny that the ark was used in worship, you also canot deny that it is an image itself and that it included the image of things above in heaven, the cherubim.
Why would God prohibit the making of images and then command them to be made? It makes no sense.
Because God is perfect we can only conclude that it is our interpretation of this particular verse that is wrong.
So what was the purpose of God allowing the use of the ark in worship because the image disposed the minds of the Israelites to the supernatural and draws them closer to God.

The images are used to draw our attention to the supernatural and makes us focus on God. But the object itself should not be worshipped.

If Catholics are guilty of worshipping any image it is the image of God, Jesus Christ. He is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

God himself became an image. So images aren't wrong, it is the worship of images that are wrong. And no matter how much hatred you have for Catholics and how many times you want to twist the truth David, it remains that Catholics use images in worship and this is not wrong as evidenced in the Bible and that Catholics do not worship those images themselves.

Lady, lets make things simple.

how do you use a graven image in worship?

thanks

I don't even need to know your heart for that do I? If you hail a dead woman that is Idolatry enough,  

Yes darling you do need to know my heart, you cannot at one moment state that we don't know the heart of man and then all of a sudden change your stance, it only shows your insecurity and fear of Catholicism being right.
Hail a dead woman, God himself hailed her. If it was good enough for God, it is good enough for me.

Because He commanded Moses to teach His people not to make any images nor to bow down to them. How would you know of such a command when your organization has removed it from the original 10.

So which commandment says that God cannot have a representative on earth? Maybe you should learn to address the issue rather than ring around the rosy.
And could you please list the commandments of the Catholic church and the ten commandments according to you and show me which one Catholics remove?

You don't know why?   Listen Lady, and listen well. God desires us to come to him directly, meaning when we are worshiping God its a one and one experience, regardless if He ordains priests and prophets. Priests and prophets all serve a purpose as it was then. Today Jesus bids us pray to His Father directly. Neither Jesus nor His disciples taught that we need saints or Mary to intercede for us. As regards the heavenly atonement, Jesus our Hign Priest receives our sins after confession, as the only Mediator between His Father and us.

I can only laugh at this.
So what you make an assertion and can't be back it up, and then you flip flop?
All of a sudden God can have representatives on earth and he doesn't have to speak directly to people he can use prophets and priests?
Dude stop contradicting yourself.
Can you prove that the disciples didn't teach that we need saints or Mary to interceed for us?
Just to educate you and try to help you get rid of your ignorance, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that we need the intercession of the saints. She teaches that the intercession of the Saints are good, just as we see in the Bible.

He wasn't being inconsistent lady. You should know that under such circumstances no sinner can literally see God and live. Worshiping and praying to God directly is quite a different matter. One doesn't have to see God literally in order to pray to Him or worship Him.

Oh I know he wasn't being inconsistent, but you think he is. From your line of thinking you do think he is inconsistent.
Really are you sure no one can literally see God and live?
I am under the impression that the 12 disciples, Mary, and several others did literally see God and they lived. Or did they symbolically see God? Infact one of them contained God in her womb and gave birth to him, nursed him, and raised him.

Because He knew they were never meant to be used as intermediaries. Besides, no one except the high priest had access to the arc of the covenant.

But why then would he command that they not be made and them command that they be made?
Or are yo finally admitting that just because an image is made and used in worship doesn't mean that the image itself is being worshipped?
And who said that images are used as intermediaries. Could it be that because of your hatred of the Church you wish to accuse us of that which we do not do?
And the High Priest being the only one to have access to an image shows the high elevation God had for an image that he commanded shouldn't be made and then commanded to be made.

Seriously do u not see the inconsistency in your line of thinking.

davidylan:

Lady, lets make things simple.

how do you use a graven image in worship?

thanks

David I made it simple. If you can't understand english sue your schools for bad education.

~Lady~:

David I made it simple. If you can't understand english sue your schools for bad education.

with all due respect . . . i already passed English for 18 yr olds when i was 8 . . . so pls if english has always been a problem for you dont assume we all are in the same boat.

You dont have to develop an ulcer . . . its ok if you cant explain your own illogical claim.

[size=18pt]You said this - Stop confusing USED in worship and BEING worshipped. They are two different things.[/size]

That makes absolutely no sense . . . its just like saying there is a difference between eating rice and using rice to eat.

@ Lady

And no where did I state that the serpent was being worshipped.
I said it was being USED in Jewish worship, just as the ark of the covenant was being USED in Jewish worship, and just as the other images in the temple were being USED in Jewish worship.

How were they used in worship? Were they made for worship, or were they made to represent the heavenly sanctuary, and what is carried out in the heavenly sanctuary above? Were you aware that Moses was instructed to build the tabernacle according to what was shown to him on the mount? Moses was shown a copy of the heavenly tabernacle above, and the object of the earthly sanctuary was to provide for the children of Israel a proper understanding of the plan of salvation. You're mistaken about the things of the ark of the covenant being used in worship. If that were the case, then why weren't they displayed outside for the people to see them? Why were they compartmentalized?

Stop confusing USED in worship and BEING worshipped. They are two different things.

How do you explain the photos above? Why is it necessary for persons to be bowing down before a so-called statue of Mary?

As stated above the ark of the covenant which includes the images of the cherubim was used in worship.

In what way you are yet to prove. If worship was an everyday experience, and the ark of the covenant came into play only once per year, in what way did the children of Israel utilize it for the purpose of worship?

Infact it was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Imagine a graven image is being overshadowed by God, a graven image he commanded to never be made and then according to your reasoning contradicts himself by commanding graven images to be made.

Your argument is so foolish. You're confusing the real issue here Lady. You're confusing God's motives for having commanded Moses to build the furniture of the ark of the covenant, and the purpose behind such objects, with man's motives for building an image for worship purposes. Besides, the furniture of the ark were hidden away from the worshipers view. During worship God was on the people's mind, not the furniture. No one was seeing bowing down to them anyway, so what is the big deal of your argument?

The Ark was used in the Holy of Holies and couldn't be touched by unordained men. Infact a man was killed for touching it.

Exactly! So how would that have enhanced anyone's worship, if they were afraid? Based on your argument no one would feel comfortable being around it. Besides, the only reason it was even seen was because it was being transported to another location when the tent was being removed.

Why would God treat a graven image in a holy manner? WHy would God command that a graven image be treated with holiness? It makes no sense.

It makes no sense to you because you have misconstrued the significance of the objects of furniture in the ark of the covenant. They were designed to illustrate the plan of salvation in a miniature sense. They were never intended to be the objects of focus.

A graven image used in worship helps one put the focus on God. We are humans with different senses and in worship we use these senses. We use our hearing and our sight and our sense of smell and touch and all that. God gave us our senses I don't see why there'd be a problem with using it to worhsip Him.

Yet God still commanded otherwise, despite our senses.

Also during early christianity drawings, images, smells and such were the only way to express the Gospel to people. Most of the christians were illiterates and poor. The education isn't what it is today. So they relied on images to portray the message to converts. Even today it is a very effective way of evangelizing.

How would you know the motives for the introduction of icons? Why not simply teach people to read the bible!

David the confusion comes in when people do not take into account the entire Bible to understand the meaning of a passage.

You need the entire bible to understand a passage?

of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure."

Yet we are told whose image we were made in. Wasn't it Moses who wrote the creation story? God's people already knew that, so your argument doesn't make sense.

hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

You're making me laugh.

later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

A dove? When was that?

God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods.

Go re-read the 2nd commandment? It said nothing of the sort. Simply put God didn't want to be worshiped using images of anything above, beneath, or on the earth. God knew what was likely to take place, and njpped it in the bud. God also knew that it was the manner of the surrounding heathens to utilize images, and that His own people had grown accustomed to the ways of the Egyptians.

God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Give us an example.

If he prohibited the use of images during worship he wouldn't have commanded certain images to be used in worship perfect example is the ark of the covenant.

Keep harping on a baseless argument. See my response already supplied above.

You cannot deny that the ark was used in worship, you also canot deny that it is an image itself and that it included the image of things above in heaven, the cherubim.

I already did above. Are angels worshiped? If not explain why God allowed Moses to carve them, and hide them in the sanctuary?

Why would God prohibit the making of images and then command them to be made? It makes no sense.
Because God is perfect we can only conclude that it is our interpretation of this particular verse that is wrong.

Speak for yourself.

So what was the purpose of God allowing the use of the ark in worship because the image disposed the minds of the Israelites to the supernatural and draws them closer to God.

So why were they hidden?

If Catholics are guilty of worshipping any image it is the image of God, Jesus Christ. He is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

Hence you do not need statues of Jesus, or Mary.

God himself became an image. So images aren't wrong, it is the worship of images that are wrong. And no matter how much hatred you have for Catholics and how many times you want to twist the truth David, it remains that Catholics use images in worship and this is not wrong as evidenced in the Bible and that Catholics do not worship those images themselves.

Only in your mind are these things evidenced.

Catholics should try and read the bible and they will understand the mind of God on types of acceptable worship. God's acceptable type of worship is not in academics of any feild, but in d bible. It is made plain and clear. It is not also in religion, sect, ideas, nor in philosophy. God has outlined it in the Bible. John4:21-24; 1 Tim. 3:16.

I agree Zoe. It should be our duty to study more.

there really is no proof that Catholics actually "worship" graven images in the actual sense of the world. Kneeling or bowing or prostrating in front of a carved statue does not make one an idol worshipper. I was raised a catholic and as I grew up I looked upon these images as just symbols of faith. But now, I've changed faiths and decided that I don't really need any physical symbols to feel close to God. But I would never condemn anyone. I think the OP should realise that this issue is bigger than him or any one and should just think up another issue to discuss.

Just to add my 2 cents, the sabbath day like the tithe law is not relevant today because we are covered by the Grace of God.
God should be worshiped multiple times daily just like everyday should be our Christmas, if you want to follow the law, you need to follow the rest as well not just a couple. It is an all or nothing deal, you will also need to worship in a "Temple" to follow the law.

@ maedan

there really is no proof that Catholics actually "worship" graven images in the actual sense of the world. Kneeling or bowing or prostrating in front of a carved statue does not make one an idol worshipper.

If its not idol worship what is it then? It amazes me how people can outrightly deny God and His words. God specifically commanded not to bow down to graven images, and here you are defending such an act of disobedience.

Just to add my 2 cents, the sabbath day like the tithe law is not relevant today because we are covered by the Grace of God.

Open a thread for sabbath issues, and then you can prove from scriptures your case. Otherwise stay from the thread if you cannot show respect.

Can anyone show me where Peter used any graven image in worship?

davidylan:

Can anyone show me where Pope Peter used any graven image in worship?

You forgot to add Pope in front

Posted by: davidylan

Can anyone show me where Peter used any graven image in worship?

Excellent question considering he was supposedly the first pope.

Isn't it strange how Paul wrote and accomplished more than Peter did in terms of ministry. Isn't it strange how Paul wrote to the Romans, and Peter didn''t. So if Peter who didn't claim lordship as the popes do today, did very little to prove the catholic's claim that He was the first Pope, then if anything I assume Paul the rightful Pope.

I do declare Paul of tarsus Pope,

Peter would probably be turning in his grave by now . . . pope indeed.

@bobyaff and co

The commandment actually prohibited the making of images of all things in heaven and earth ,in the sea and under the earth.

The definition of images is not restricted to carved images,images also includes pictures ,drawings,paintings e.t.c
I know almmost every protestant including boobyaff have pictures in their house even boobyaff attached his ugly picture to his profile.

Also we so many instances of carved images being used in the bible,the temple king solomon built has carved images of the winged creatures all over it's wall,solomon also decorated his throne with carved images of Lions.

Moses who gave the commandments actualy used carved images of bronze serpent and winged creatures.

Most Nigerians especially the yorubas bow down to their elder (dobale),who are images of God .

So stop the talk about carving of images or bowing down to them,If you have any proof of idol worship in the RCC do present it.

Bobbyaff ,like I said to you before ,the RCC will outlive you ,your diabolical machinations are already failing.the RCC continues to grow in mounts and bounts.

@bobyaff and co

The commandment actually prohibited the making of images of all things in heaven and earth ,in the sea and under the earth.

The definition of images is not restricted to carved images,images also includes pictures ,drawings,paintings e.t.c
I know almmost every protestant including boobyaff have pictures in their house even boobyaff attached his ugly picture to his profile.

Also we so many instances of carved images being used in the bible,the temple king solomon built has carved images of the winged creatures all over it's wall,solomon also decorated his throne with carved images of Lions.

Moses who gave the commandments actualy used carved images of bronze serpent and winged creatures.

Most Nigerians especially the yorubas bow down to their elder (dobale),who are images of God .

So stop the talk about carving of images or bowing down to them,If you have any proof of idol worship in the RCC do present it.

Bobbyaff ,like I said to you before ,the RCC will outlive you ,your diabolical machinations are already failing.the RCC continues to grow in mounts and bounts.

Keep trying!

This is an example of what Imeant an ugly Image of bobbyaff ,violating the commandment that said thou shall not make any image of anything on earth

Posted by: topup

I have always thought if it is that simple, then why is it so successful and so many people across the continents are Catholics, if it is one of the biggest contradictions ever.

I would like if people responded with reasons and justifications and not just digs at the other person's religion. Because when you take them out the picture, will you be able to stand on your own two feet??

That is easy to explain.

1.  Catholics baptize babies and hence beef up their church memberships. On top pf that one doesn't have to be a serious bible-believing born again Christian to be a member of the Catholic church. You can smoke and drink and still consider yourself alright in Christ.

2. Catholicism as well is considered state religion because of the established historical connections which existed before in those countries.

3. Bear in mind too most Catholics feel obligated to will their properties to the RCC, thus making it the richest organization on the face of the earth. Revelation describes it thus:

Revelation 17:4 "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication, "

Fitting symbols for a rich and currupt organization.

[img]http://shadows15.files./2007/11/prostrate-to-pope.jpg[/img]

What do you all think of this photo? Priests worshiping their pope and god. One pope has made it clear that all popes stand in the place of God Almighty.

"In the place of" is what constitutes the true meaning of the phrase "Anti-Christ. This is exactly what Daniel and John predicted would constitute the "little horn power", and the beast respectively, in Daniel 7:25, and Revelation 13.

Most non catholics es[pecially the pentecostals ctually worship money,all you hear in their sermons are tithes,offerings ,seed sowing.

They are so many things in the Bible that are not observed by you protestants,the Bible clearly states that Women should not occupy positions of authourity in the church ,but these order is being so fragrantly disregarded in todays's churches.

Also the order that W omen should cover their hair while praying is also ignored.You hypocrites why dont you remove the log in you eyes so that you might see so clearly the so called speck in the eyes f the RCC.

The Bible explicitly states that the law of moses has ended and should be done away with .But you protestant still practice the payment of tithes ,,first fruits and other jewish practices that would bring in money.

The bible clearly states in gal 5;4 that anyone that lives by the jewish law is no longer a christian,so technically speaking you hypocrites are no longer christians.

Martin luther broke up the church because of the sale of indulgences that was far less than 10 prcent,today criminals who call themselves pastors are fleecing their members of their hard earned money and using it to purchase private jets and other worldly things.If I may ask what did martin luther fight for?

Martin luther would weep if he were to come back to these world and see what you protestants have become.

Pastors give sermons and 90 percent of their sermons are based on prosperity.Churches are now into competion and markerting

Hypocrites your  diabolical machinations will fail.

In 1950 the population of the RCC qwas 450million, today we are 1.2 billion,the RCC would continue to grow .
The Lord cleary statesin  the gospel of mathew that  gates of hell shall never prevail against it.

Image kissing which is a form of adoration.