topup:

I have always thought if it is that simple, then why is it so successful and so many people across the continents are Catholics, if it is one of the biggest contradictions ever.

I would like if people responded with reasons and justifications and not just digs at the other person's religion. Because when you take them out the picture, will you be able to stand on your own two feet??

@bobbyaff

Please do you mind telling me what happened to the churches the Apostles founded,we know from the bible that the apostles founded churches in Rome,Corinth,ephesus,jerusalem,galatia,macedonia,alexandria,philipi,antioch and a host of other cities ,how come all this churches disapeared.

We know that then churches founded by martin luther,jean calvin,henryviii ,benny hinn,oyedepo e.t.c are still in existence .How come these apostolic churches diaspeared?


Mind you fool,most of the prophecies in the boks of Daniel that u are so obseessed with have been fulfilled.

Your gross stupidity makes me want to cry,stop making a fool of your self

maedan:


Well I still don't think Catholicism is actual idol worship, in the true meaning of the word. They do not worship the image itself, like pagans worshipped their graven images of wood and iron. Catholics are aware of who they are worshipping, that is, God The Father and Jesus Christ The Son. The adoration of Mother Mary is another matter. However from the pictures posted above I would say I do not know much about the modern mode of Catholic doctrine, so I might as well back out of the argument now, peace.

Bobbyaf:

[img]http://shadows15.files./2007/11/prostrate-to-pope.jpg[/img]

Bobbyaf:

[img]http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/pinecone.jpg[/img]

In Babylon the pine cone described fertility and also the regeneration power of Tammuz. In the Vatican is the world's largest pine cone sculpture. This sculpture is located in the court of pine. The Roman Catholic Church very openly follows pagan idol worshiping by using pagan symbols.



Here is Pope John Paul II holding what is called a Monstrance or Ostensorium. The Roman Catholic Church even admits the Monstrance to be a sunburst.



Notice the letters SFS in the small sunburst blaze on the large close up of a Monstrance above? Each of the letters is a universal symbol for the number 6 in the pagan m

Bobbyaf link=topic=295289.msg4180177#msg4180177 date=1247509147:



Image kissing which is a form of adoration.

- The Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force -

Hence i am sorry to disappoint you mazaje but saying the truth is not always a popular thing.

I have always said that True Christians are really few and far between. Infact I believe that True Christians are the least number of people on the planet in comparison to the catholics, muslims, atheists and all.


Standing for the truth has nothing to do with compromise or peace, Paul was killed for it. Peter was killed for it. Messiah willingly laid down His life to save us and give us the truth.

Bobbyaf:

That is easy to explain.

1.  Catholics baptize babies and hence beef up their church memberships. On top pf that one doesn't have to be a serious bible-believing born again Christian to be a member of the Catholic church. You can smoke and drink and still consider yourself alright in Christ.

2. Catholicism as well is considered state religion because of the established historical connections which existed before in those countries.

3. Bear in mind too most Catholics feel obligated to will their properties to the RCC, thus making it the richest organization on the face of the earth. Revelation describes it thus:

Revelation 17:4 "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication, "

Fitting symbols for a rich and currupt organization.

@ No2Atheism, thanks for the heads up, but I have a good relationship with my bible. I just don't trawl through it looking for ways to justify condemning how others choose to serve God.

There are fanatics in every religion, and it's the same for Catholics where some go a little too far and make it look like paganism. What ever, I just feel we should focus on our own personal relationship with God because in the end, that's all that matters.

@BABYOF

From my many conversations with non-catholics they percieve The Catholic Fiath as being trully iincapable of transforming one
spiritually, somewhat i concur that it is not easy to find a Catholic living a Christain lifestyle but this is the case with NON
CATHOLIC CHRISTIANS also if you want to be brutally sincere: the zeal for Christain lifestyles is waning
i think what is more important for us is to become the very members of Christ i.e His Eyes of Compassion, Limbs of Service, His
Heart of Love, this is the only language that even Non christains will understand it is the language that Christ spoke even when he
was suspended on th e Cross by 3 big, blunt nails rather arguing over doctrinal issues.
But for the sake of voicing my experience as a Catholic by CHOICE.

Worship is a thing of the heart just as prayer is, it is in the spirit not on the lips. When my Yoruba brother prostrates before his
dad in the morning to greet he is only expressing a certain respect for his dad who deserves being his father, it would be wrong to
equate the bodily act of prostration to another human being aa Idolatary, which is simpy giving a person or spirit (physical or
non-physical) the respect due to God alone as the Creator and Sustainer of lIfe to life forms.

Worship, technically speaking is about expressing respect. The purpose of representations of , lets start with Jesus, is just to
readily recall Jesus, to glance at Him whom we love and revere, just as any human being who has loved ones would put their
pictures where they can see it always and kiss it tenderly even press unto their chest this gestures to an extents satiates the
desires which we want to express to the loved one where he/she physically present. It is a thing that is human in origin and very
okay when the emotions expressed are licit and proper.

Because Jesus is not only my Sweet Lover but my Divine Lord and Master my emotions towards Him extends to worship (the
respect due Him as the Living Word of God made flesh). I am not only satisfied with conceding His Lordship over my life in the
deepest recesses of my poor heart i am naturally moved to express it by marks of respcet like bowing, prosatration, kneeling as His Apostles actually did like after He calmed the storm. I cant for Heaven where i will see Him face to Face i wanna start now.

The picture or statue of Jesus is NOT Jesus in a cement/plastic form just a representation which has the potential of aiding my
relationship via the senses which i have. I treat it with affection and respect just as i ould not let my mum's picture lying on the
floor for less that a second.

When God spoke about not making images and worshipping them He simply meant Idolatary, which we see in traditional worship as we have it in Nigerian cultures. The same God will have Images made for His Temple see Deuteronomy where He dictated to Moses howe he Lord's temple should be.

Lets leave the Blessed Virgin Mary, The Monstrance fetc for another thread.

Insert Quote
Chukwudi44, what is the meaning of the word "graven"?


young man what are you implying

@bobbyaff

I want you to prove from the bible how the RCC came and destroyed the churches founded by the apostles.

Also you seventh day adventists claim that the RCC started existing from the seventh century where you traced your 1260 year period to 1879,how come the RCC that started existing in the seventh century,now come back to abolish the sabath in the fourth century?

Mind you fool, more than 90% of prophet Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled,your lack of erudition and inherent stupidity has robbed you of basic christian facts and history.I feeel pity for you

young man what are you implying

Bobbyaf:

You simply do not know what the word means, otherwise you would not have equated a photo with a graven image, when it is not.

Bobbyaf:

Correction. No one can destroy God's church, but the prophecies pointed to a system that would arise as a religio-political power that would attempt to change the order of things. The pure apostolic church that was left by Christ, and the apostles went through a lot of phases. During the bishopric certain developments started towards apostasy, which led to what is now known as Roman Catholicism.

Once again you have your facts wrong. What we are saying is that the apostate church would have been doing certain things during the 1260 year period, based on the prophesy of Daniel 7:25, and Revelation 13. This period of power forging began in BC538, when the pope was finally given power to do as he pleased, when the last of three Arian kingdoms was put out of the way. Daniel predicted that the little horn would uproot three kings. The papal system being a kingdom in its own right, made sure that the opposing Arian kingdoms were totally destroyed in that those kingdoms cannot even be found anywhere on the modern map.

Feel free to curse and swear, but remember for every idle word that a man speaks, according to Jesus, he will have to give an account in the judgment. Come with the facts instead of cursings and rantings.

@bobbyaff,

about the sabath,the truth is that the sabath was on a saturday,but the pope transferred the solenmity of the sabath to sunday,you may want to say that the pope does not have that power ,but remember that Jesus told Peter that awhatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and what ever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.

The Pope as succcessors of Peter inherited this Power and mind you the motive behind you was because Jesus rose on sunday,the argument has been on even from the second century, st ignatius of antioch and st justin matyr has earlier alluded to making these change centuries before sylvester 1 finally implemented it.

If you recognise the authourity of he Pope ,you can as well throw away the catholic canonised bibles since the pope like wise has no power to canonise them.

You can revert to the practice of the early church that had no approved set of criptures ,hundredds of scriptures were in circulation. E ven the seperation into verses and chapters was done by the catholic church ,you can also discard them. Mind you all the gospel writers,the writers of acts,1-3 John,hebrews did not disclose their identity,The identities of these writers were disclosed by the RCC why dont you discard them since the RCC cannot be trusted.

The onus is on you to prove from the Bible hopw an evil church came and took over control from the true church ,successfully changed the sabath and even determined the books of the bible. do you know that for more than 1400 years that RCC held sway in the world and even today consttute more than 50 percent of christendom.

Do you know that from the time of moses to the birth of Jesus was not up to 1500 years,
how come after the birth and death of the messiah ,an evil church would take over the christianity and holding it longer than even the babylonians did yet no explicit warning was given in the bible.

I would also like you to name the three arian kingdoms the RCC uprooted and in what year that happened .

You can also from the prophecy of daniel and the book of the revelation tell us when the RC will end because as I am seeing the RCC grew even stronger after 1879 when it was suposed to die going by your stupid interpretation of Daniel's prophecy