Chrisbenogor:

Because I question the motives and the capabilities of the people who wrote those books. Scientists would not be propounding evolution just to control people no? But I feel that religion has been used and is still being used by a smart few who have realised what most people fear.
Maybe my disbelief in God will clear things up for you to understand why I said I feel it is being used as a tool to control people.
Yes I read the thread where you talked about atheists being irrational and I did not quite understand why? For me this is the syntax of events, just imagine I am chris of the jungle
Noetic2: Hi Chris how are you and the jungle
Chris: I am fine brother, and you
Noetic2: Oh yes I am, thanks be to God
Chris: God?
Noetic2: yes God, you know the creator?
, cut and this is where you place your argument for the creator so the conversation can continue.
My point is I cannot PROVE A NEGATIVE, so the burden of proof lies on you to show me the overwhelming evidence that there is a God and then I will tell you just how I see that evidence.

I never knew we were debating again, I thought we were trying to understand ur world view of creationism and evolution.

1. I find the notion "proving a negative" very meaningless. simply state cogent reasons why u dont believe in God. They dont have to be convincing to me, as long as u can rationalise them.
if u had no position on the existence or non-existence of God, then the burden of proof is on any one with an opinion on the matter. . . .but u do have an opinion that he does not exist. . . , whats the basis of that opinion?
if u find it too hard to answer. . . .u dont have to produce an answer.

2. I still dont know why u believe that evolution is more credible than creationism.

noetic2:

I never knew we were debating again, I thought we were trying to understand ur world view of creationism and evolution.

1. I find the notion "proving a negative" very meaningless. simply state cogent reasons why u dont believe in God. They dont have to be convincing to me, as long as u can rationalise them.
if u had no position on the existence or non-existence of God, then the burden of proof is on any one with an opinion on the matter. . . .but u do have an opinion that he does not exist. . . , whats the basis of that opinion?
if u find it too hard to answer. . . .u dont have to produce an answer.

Sit back and enjoy.
This is where we might get stuck, ok let me make it easier on us ( I have been bending oh! ) . There are stereotyped ways people act when they find someone like me lacking belief that there is a God, they say something like look around you can you not see how beautiful the world is, or the one you use a lot that says biogenies- life begets life or something like nothing is caused by itself, every effect has a prior cause.
The above arguments to me all rely on the idea of a regress to me which requires one invoking God to terminate it. They make a quite dubious and unwarranted assumption that God is immune to this regress. Even if I allow the luxury of calling up a terminator, and giving it the name God, I see no reason to endow the terminator with all the properties ascribed to God such as goodness, creativity of design, to say nothing of such human attributes as listening to prayers, forgiving sins and reading innermost thoughts. You do not like long posts so I will stop there on that issue if you have questions on this first ones you can ask, otherwise I will go ahead and continue my explanation.

Noetic,
Can I go on?

sure please go on.

noetic2:

sure please go on.

Thank you,
Another touchy argument from people is that from personal experience, more often than not religious people have this conviction that they have this very personal relationship with God, they hear him, see him feel him and who am I to say there is no God? In all my years as a christian I never ever felt this *sighs and lets shoulders drop*
The human brain I have come to observe in my number of years on earth runs a first class simulation software. Our eyes for instance don't present to our brains a faithful photograph of what is out there, or an accurate movie of what is going on through time. Our brains construct a continuously updated model: updated by coded pulses chattering along the optic nerve, but constructed nevertheless. Optical illusions are vivid reminders of this. I see the look on peoples faces when I tell them do you realize that light bulb has gone on and of 50 times in the last second? ( A.C. frequency of 50hz ), or that tv we watch is actually a series of pictures moving too fast for our eyes to capture their seamless breaks? and for the purpose of keeping these posts short I endeavour anyone reading to check out these illusions for themselves.
I say all this just to show the formidable power of the brain's software. It is well capable of constructing 'visions' and 'visitations' .To simulate a ghost or an angel or a Virgin Mary would be child's play to software of this sophistication, same goes for hearing.
That is really all that needs to be said about personal 'experiences' of gods or other religious phenomena, it is a huge possibility to me that the people that wrote the bible could have experienced all these things. Some people may have had such an experience, and may well find themselves believing firmly that it was real. But I don't buy it.
Should I still go on?

1. sure u can go on. . .perharps a little emphasis on evolution would be ideal.

2. u already know my position on these issues. . . . .would u want my analysis of ur beliefs as u have just posted them?

Chris from your quote you sound more like 'odé' . Consider the thousand of proof that God exist, have you forgotten that human are higher animal, an atheist and a lower animal are equivalent to each other, they both think unwisely and stupidly,

Abuzola:

Chris from your quote you sound more like 'odé' . Consider the thousand  of proof that God exist, have you forgotten that human are higher animal, an atheist and a lower animal are equivalent to each other, they both think unwisely and stupidly, 

to be honest i'd be safer with an atheist than a raving muslim like abuzola or his cousins in the taliban.

davidylan:

to be honest i'd be safer with an atheist than a raving muslim like abuzola or his cousins in the taliban.

see this man using style to call us wimps

Thank you, and thats why i classify them as 'ode'. This is a punishment from Allah which He promised the muslim that He will inflict terror and fear in their heart against you. Allahu akbar. Prophecy fulfil

Abuzola:

Thank you, and thats why i classify them as 'ode'. This is a punishment from Allah which He promised the muslim that He will inflict terror and fear in their heart against you. Allahu akbar. Prophecy fulfil

who would not be afraid be terrorists? allah is such a joker

Hehehe. Thanks noetic for confirming it again

Abuzola:

Hehehe. Thanks noetic for confirming it again

u are welcome. do u expect me to stay in the same room with a suicide bomber?

noetic2:

1. sure u can go on. . .perharps a little emphasis on evolution would be ideal.

2. u already know my position on these issues. . . . .would u want my analysis of ur beliefs as u have just posted them?

Yes I know your position on these issues I am just stating mine. I need you to see that evolution or not I really see no reason for believing in God, evolution is not the main issue for me you said my positions were dogmatic and I am trying to break them down piece by piece to you.
[s][/s]
Perhaps the most common way is the usual way people preach saying Jesus came and died for our sins using the bible in essence to prove the bible. Sacrifices make little or no sense to me, if God has all the properties ascribed to him, he would not need someone's death to feel good or to forgive man to the extent of sending his son down ( in a mysterious conception ).The fact that something is written down is persuasive to people not used to asking questions like: 'Who wrote it, and when?' 'How did they know what to write?' 'Did they, in their time, really mean what we, in our time, understand them to be saying?' 'Were they unbiased observers, or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?'. All these questions always end up in a deadlock, scholars saying things are not the black and white letters we see and religious people saying the scholars are biased. Personally I think the argument sways in the favour of the scholars.
Will continue in a while.

Oh boy, u be lower animal, go si don

There are so many others, but we want this thread to be short so I am going to close this with a favorite one called pascals wager . Blaise Pascal reckoned that, however long the odds against God's existence might be, there is an even larger asymmetry in the penalty for guessing wrong. You'd better believe in God, because if you are right you stand to gain paradise and if you are wrong it won't make any difference anyway. On the other hand, if you don't believe in God and you turn out to be wrong you get an eternity of anguish, whereas if you are right it makes no difference. On the face of it the decision is a no-brainer ergo- Believe in God
I think this argument does not take into cognisance the fact that believing is not something we opt to do, nothing can make you believe something if you dont, so this argument is only for feigning belief in God, and God being the Ominscient kind will see through that deception and smite you still  
I also have problems that God after ascribing all these powers to him would take believing more importantly than say kindness for instance, or being generous, what if God regards honest truth seeking higher than belief? If I died today and God asks me why I did not believe in him my simple answer would be "not enough evidence lord not enough evidence" a God should take that honest answer better than pascals cowardly bet. It just like saying would I bet on God valuing dishonestly faked belief to honest skepticism?
But wait suppose the God that meets me when I die is SANGO, or AMADIOHA? and is just as jealous as the monotheistic God? Would I not be better off wagering that there is no God at all than on the wrong God? The sheer number of Gods , gods, goddesses makes a big joke of this argument.
In summary I see no reason to believe there is a God, so why would I even take the genesis accounts seriously in the first place? Can you see why I am swayed more to evolution now?

1. I do get ur point, but . . .

2. so u tilt to evolution because of ur position on the belief/disbelief in God. thats honest at the very least.

well done.

noetic2:

1. I do get ur point, but . . .

2. so u tilt to evolution because of ur position on the belief/disbelief in God. thats honest at the very least.

well done.

Thank you for hearing me out.
Cheers.

It looks like I can post now as the road is now clear. Let me address Chrisbenegor.

Scientist say the world started from an accident - the big bang and from there, man originally the ape man started evolving to who we are now. They also say the earth is probably tens of thousands of years old. I have a problem with the big bang and evolution theory. They are however bang on  with the age of the earth and I would explain that later. Let me quickly address the first two.

If you have seen an accident scene, you will agree with me that the end result is unplanned, often with loss and generally disorganised. The big bang theory is challenged because of this. It seems very improbable for an accident to explain the order in the universe and the relationship to our weather and currents by lunar cycles. These could hardly be traced to a bang that would produce a disorganized system. Any organized system in real life comes from proper planning. We know this for a fact as humans. As Nigerians, perhaps we suffer from it. It just that in the case of the universe, that person is called The Holy Spirit, The Almighty, God, Yahweh, I prefer to call him THE FATHER, because the created cannot name the creator. We cannot explain away everything with science. Science cannot explain for instance magic, witchcraft, cannot explain human trickery. Science is limited by our very own limitations as beings. Think about other universes that exist millions of miles from earth. Can you imagine travelling there with our present or future scientific knowledge? My friend, there is another existence that is spiritual, without our current physical limitations. The religions recognize this, but doctors or scientist do not. That explains why a patient in the hospital may have water, blood every physical thing ok, and yet will still die because the spirit is on the way out. That explains why when the patient is prayed for, the spirit returns and the doctor confirms that something that science cannot explain (a miracle) has occurred.

The world consists of the physical and the spiritual. The physical struggles with time, space but the spiritual has no such limitation. Let me stop for now.

Marlbron:

It looks like I can post now as the road is now clear. Let me address Chrisbenegor.

Scientist say the world started from an accident - the big bang and from there, man originally the ape man started evolving to who we are now. They also say the earth is probably tens of thousands of years old. I have a problem with the big bang and evolution theory. They are however bang on  with the age of the earth and I would explain that later. Let me quickly address the first two.

If you have seen an accident scene, you will agree with me that the end result is unplanned, often with loss and generally disorganised. The big bang theory is challenged because of this. It seems very improbable for an accident to explain the order in the universe and the relationship to our weather and currents by lunar cycles. These could hardly be traced to a bang that would produce a disorganized system. Any organized system in real life comes from proper planning. We know this for a fact as humans. As Nigerians, perhaps we suffer from it. It just that in the case of the universe, that person is called The Holy Spirit, The Almighty, God, Yahweh, I prefer to call him THE FATHER, because the created cannot name the creator. We cannot explain away everything with science. Science cannot explain for instance magic, witchcraft, cannot explain human trickery. Science is limited by our very own limitations as beings. Think about other universes that exist millions of miles from earth. Can you imagine travelling there with our present or future scientific knowledge? My friend, there is another existence that is spiritual, without our current physical limitations. The religions recognize this, but doctors or scientist do not. That explains why a patient in the hospital may have water, blood every physical thing ok, and yet will still die because the spirit is on the way out. That explains why when the patient is prayed for, the spirit returns and the doctor confirms that something that science cannot explain (a miracle) has occurred.

The world consists of the physical and the spiritual. The physical struggles with time, space but the spiritual has no such limitation. Let me stop for now.

Should I comment or you want to continue?

Well done,but will the animal comprehend at all ? I guess no

Abuzola:

Well done,but will the animal comprehend at all ? I guess no

Do you think anyone here aside from your muslim brothers think you have a thinking faculty?
If you want to tease me by all means do, name calling is not called for.

The physical is possible because of the spiritual. The spiritual is the controller, the god of the physical. Notice I used god and not GOD, as I am discussing at the level of the individual, the micro level. At the level of the Universe is the biggest controller, who had always existed, even if you refuse to believe Him. His science of creation is repeated every time; a child is born, grows to adulthood and dies. A child is born from interaction of sperm and egg, very small cells, hardly visible with the naked eye. These cells would now start to grow into a baby, forming body parts, brain etc in a 9 month period. He created a cycle of birth and death and the cycle could not have occurred by accident otherwise it would be unrepeatable. His science is way ahead of our own. It is spiritual science of the first grade. He is omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent. He makes and unmakes.

Our spirit lives inside every one of us, every creation. Our spirit gives us our personality and lives inside us and is invisible. We may be of different races, countries and colour but our spirit is universal. It knows no borders or customs, neither does it need a flight to move from place to place. Some knowledgeable individuals sometimes exploit the spirit for good or for bad. Through some spiritual practices, it is possible to operate at the level of the spirit for a brief static period. Some use it for witchcraft, for other evils and some for good. The body dies, but the spirit does not die. The spirits are of different characteristic but are all subject to the Holy Spirit.

Marlbron:

The physical is possible because of the spiritual. The spiritual is the controller, the god of the physical. Notice I used god and not GOD, as I am discussing at the level of the individual, the micro level. At the level of the Universe is the biggest controller, who had always existed, even if you refuse to believe Him. His science of creation is repeated every time; a child is born, grows to adulthood and dies. A child is born from interaction of sperm and egg, very small cells, hardly visible with the naked eye. These cells would now start to grow into a baby, forming body parts, brain etc in a 9 month period. He created a cycle of birth and death and the cycle could not have occurred by accident otherwise it would be unrepeatable. His science is way ahead of our own. It is spiritual science of the first grade. He is omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent. He makes and unmakes.

Our spirit lives inside every one of us, every creation. Our spirit gives us our personality and lives inside us and is invisible. We may be of different races, countries and colour but our spirit is universal. It knows no borders or customs, neither does it need a flight to move from place to place. Some knowledgeable individuals sometimes exploit the spirit for good or for bad. Through some spiritual practices, it is possible to operate at the level of the spirit for a brief static period. Some use it for witchcraft, for other evils and some for good. The body dies, but the spirit does not die. The spirits are of different characteristic but are all subject to the Holy Spirit.

It might do both of us good if you paused here and named this post NUMBER 2, lets deal with number 1 first.

Chris am not teasing. Atheist are like lower animal, brainless to realize the creationism like animals. Hehehe sowi

Abuzola:

Chris am not teasing. Atheist are like lower animal, brainless to realize the creationism like animals. Hehehe sowi

Sure atheist are like lower animals but still they are much more better and have better functioning brains than your pedophile prophet and imaginary warrior desert god.

Marlbron:


If you have seen an accident scene, you will agree with me that the end result is unplanned, often with loss and generally disorganised. The big bang theory is challenged because of this. It seems very improbable for an accident to explain the order in the universe and the relationship to our weather and currents by lunar cycles.

To the untrained eye, the end result of an accident is random. That is only true to a degree, let us take the scenario of two cars having a head on collision, a lot of factors will weigh in to how both cars and people inside will end up but inside the randomness there is a certain order. The position you are would determine not only the direction but also  the speed with which you will move. The weights of both cars would also come into play and in the end one can almost perfectly simulate the accident again. There are loads of professionals out there who specialise in piecing scenarios even as crazy as bombings together. This again is another weak argument.

My friend, there is another existence that is spiritual, without our current physical limitations. The religions recognize this, but doctors or scientist do not. That explains why a patient in the hospital may have water, blood every physical thing ok, and yet will still die because the spirit is on the way out. That explains why when the patient is prayed for, the spirit returns and the doctor confirms that something that science cannot explain (a miracle) has occurred.
The world consists of the physical and the spiritual. The physical struggles with time, space but the spiritual has no such limitation. Let me stop for now.

Yet another argument which I feel does not cut it, a patient dies because the doctor mis-diagnosed, doctors make mistakes. This is not enough evidence that there is the spiritual IMO, your assertions about the father the son and holy spirit come from where?
Well you are entitled to your own opinion.

Toneyb, are you too here to defend your god who died nakedly and miserably on the cross 2000 years ago ? Hahahaha, your god died thousand of years, he was expected to rise on monday but the devil took his form on sunday, monday nothing to show: mathew 12:40

Chrisbenogor:

It might do both of us good if you paused here and named this post NUMBER 2, lets deal with number 1 first.

I think u should let him go on and hear him out. . .no need for another endless debate.

Marlbron:

The physical is possible because of the spiritual. The spiritual is the controller, the god of the physical. Notice I used god and not GOD, as I am discussing at the level of the individual, the micro level. At the level of the Universe is the biggest controller, who had always existed, even if you refuse to believe Him. His science of creation is repeated every time; a child is born, grows to adulthood and dies. A child is born from interaction of sperm and egg, very small cells, hardly visible with the naked eye. These cells would now start to grow into a baby, forming body parts, brain etc in a 9 month period. He created a cycle of birth and death and the cycle could not have occurred by accident otherwise it would be unrepeatable. His science is way ahead of our own. It is spiritual science of the first grade. He is omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent. He makes and unmakes.

Our spirit lives inside every one of us, every creation. Our spirit gives us our personality and lives inside us and is invisible. We may be of different races, countries and colour but our spirit is universal. It knows no borders or customs, neither does it need a flight to move from place to place. Some knowledgeable individuals sometimes exploit the spirit for good or for bad. Through some spiritual practices, it is possible to operate at the level of the spirit for a brief static period. Some use it for witchcraft, for other evils and some for good. The body dies, but the spirit does not die. The spirits are of different characteristic but are all subject to the Holy Spirit.

I will take noetics advise, carry on.

@Abuzola
I want to understand you, but in another thread are you ready to oblige?

Abuzola:

Toneyb, are you too here to defend your god who died nakedly and miserably on the cross 2000 years ago ? Hahahaha, your god died thousand of years, he was expected to rise on monday but the devil took his form on sunday, monday nothing to show: mathew 12:40

. What a pathetic nut case. Go and recite the Koran.