greetings:
Personally, I used to think it's the best thing for someone to live in a Muslim country. As I grew older I realised, the most important thing is first security of life and property, which is what Islam preaches.

So, as long as this basic condition is met, go for it!

Western countries, this is what they have. They might not have believe in God but they protection of life and property is so important to them. You would think they did.

My opinion.

cckris:
Sincere Nigerian Moslems should seek Visas to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, instead of travelling to the United States, the great Satan.

Lagusta:
Seun still has the mindset that islaam does not give women rights.....
Anyway, I would love to live in an Islamic country that practices the real Islamic law eg Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Jordan, Oman and yep, kingdom of Saudi Arabia (however I don't agree with the Saudi law that bans women from driving cars, since Aisha the prophet's wife rode camels in her lifetime)
However, I would NEVER live in these so-called Islamic countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan.... these two are so corrupt, they changed to law to suit their taste, etc....
I would have loved to live in these countries, but they are war-torn now, and I pray Allah makes them find peace: Palestine, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and I think Lebanon....
And Allah knows best......

oyb:
the interesting thing is that by the tenets of Islam, there is no true Islamic country.
all muslim nations are ideally supposed to be a single caliphate

This statement of yours is very wrong, the Prophet(saw) prophesied on how there would be caliphate which would be taken away and then replaced by kingship. As for the underlined, I seriously hope you aren't walking on the the path of "kharijiyyah" and "takfir"?

Demmzy15:

This statement of yours is very wrong, the Prophet(saw) prophesied on how there would be caliphate which would be taken away and then replaced by kingship. As for the underlined, I seriously hope you aren't walking on the the path of "kharijiyyah" and "takfir"?

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith (Hadith 1441)

An-Nu'man told on Hudhayfah's authority that Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "Prophecy will remain among you as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a caliphate according to the manner of prophecy as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a distressful kingdom which will remain as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a proud kingdom which will remain as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a caliphate according to the manner of prophecy." Then he stopped. Habib said: "When Umar ibn AbdulAziz became caliph I wrote to him, mentioning this tradition to him and saying, "I hope you will be the commander of the faithful after the distressful and the proud kingdoms." It pleased and charmed him, i.e. Umar ibn AbdulAziz."
Ahmad and Bayhaqi, in Dala'il an-Nubuwwah, transmitted it.

""Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be Khilaafah upon the manner of Prophethood and it will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be harsh kingship which will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be tyrannical kingship and it will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be Khilaafah upon the manner of Prophethood. Then he was silent"
Saheeh: Related by Ahmad (4/273), from an Nu'maan ibn Basheer radiallaahu anhu. (Silsilatul Ahaadeethus Saheehah/Al-Albany)

eitsei:
So you think life and properties are not secured in Islamic countries?

Dhelake:
I am a muslim but I don't think I can live in any of the Islamic countries. It will be bad for anyone's sanity.

Seun:
If your answer is 'yes,' what are some of the ways in which you feel that an Islamic country would be better for your life than a secular country?

Lagusta:
@oyb.....

Your post was a very intelligent one, and I agree with you in Toto....

However, I would still state that Saudi Arabia, as bad as it is, is still better than Pakistan.....

I heard that in that third world country (remember most of the 'muslims' there are grave-worshipping Sufis) women's rights have reached absolute zero (and I mean -273.15°C)

Women don't drive, they don't go to school, they work only in their fatger's farms, and once they get married, they become sex slaves, give birth to all their children in their ovaries, and potentially worship their husbands......

Saudi Arabia should really review their laws concerning women, their hypocritical muftis are just there to give all sorts of fatwa as far as the monarchy pays them millions of dinar; imagine saying pictures are forbidden but their king's portrait is in their homes.....

But it's nice meeting an intelligent Muslim like you, I really wish all Muslims relate the same way.....

oyb:


so does distressful/harsh or proud/tyrannical kingship sound like an Islamic Utopia?

it actually falls in line with what i posted before. most of those countries [ saudi arabia, kuwait] are tyrannical /proud regimes. some are currently distressed [yemen] .

going by the hadith, Sunnah and Quran, is a kingdom/monarchy [hereditary leadership] in any form a legitimate form of government?
or is it just imams looking the other way because the kings are giving them power and authority?

As I said earlier in my last post, hope you aren't threading on the path of kharijiyyah? What you proclaim is exactly what jihadists like ISIS, Boko-are-rams, etc proclaim too, that there's no Islamic State in the world that's why they've created one in Iraaq and Syria after slaughtering Muslims.

There's nowhere in the hadith which states that kingship is illegitimate, it might be harsh but the Prophet told us about harsh leaders and he warned us never to rebel against them.

Allah’s Messenger (saw) said: “The Caliphate will remain in my nation for 30 years and then kingship after that”. Saheeh Sunan At-Tirmidhee no. 2226

Safeenah (ra), the narrator of the above narrations points out that the caliphates of Abu Bakr (ra), Umar (ra), Uthman (ra) and Ali (ra) add up to 30 years, thereby making them the rightly-guided khalifas. (Some scholars have also added the 6-month caliphate of Hasan (ra) as the reign of the above four only adds up to 29 years and 6 months).

Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan(ra) said, "I am the first of the kings", from the risaalah of Abi Zayd al-Qayrawaanee (1/96)

Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah commented: The kingship of Mu'aawiyah was one of mercy, and when Mu'aawiyah departed - may Allaah's mercy be upon him - and the leadership of Yazeed came, and there occured therein the tribulation of the killing of Husain in Iraq, and the fitnah of the people of Harrah in Madinah, and the siege of Makkah, when Abdullah bin Zubayr made his stand. Then Yazeed passed away and the Ummah split, Ibn az-Zubayr in the Hijaaz, Banu al-Hakam in Shaam, and al-Mukhtaar bin Abee Ubayd seizing power in Iraaq. All of this took place at the end of the period of the Companions, when there only remained the likes of Abdullah ibn 'Abaas, Abdullah ibn Umar, Jaabir ibn 'Abdullah, Abu Saeed al-Khudree and others.

You can have good and bad Kings, but Kingship isn't something that unislamic as you try and portray, if you desperately need a caliphate, go join ISIS because they've created one for you!

By the way, the government of Yemen is a democratically elected government not a kingship.

Demmzy15:
The only law restricting women in saudi arabia is driving, but the women are better off than many countries. Even than those in the West, in fact the women of Saudi are more educated than the men to the extent that many of them are lawyers, teachers, doctors etc.

@underlined, it's better you keep silent of things you have no knowledge about because accusing a Muslim unjustly is a sin. If you truly know the meaning of hypocrisy, then I don't think you'll use the word anyhow.

The number of women employed in Saudi Arabia has increased by 48% since 2010, according to the country’s Central Department of Statistics and Information and highlighted by Bloomberg.

The change is a result of limited gender reforms introduced by the late King Abdullah Abdulaziz. Saudi women are now permitted to work in retail and hospitality, and the first Saudi female lawyers were granted their practicing certificates in late 2013. Female nationals are now employed for diplomatic services as well; they can also be hired as newspaper editors and TV chat-show hosts, according to the BBC.

Changes have also been made in the education sector. Universities have expanded the areas of study available to female students, which now include law and architecture, Bloomberg reports. Female students accounted for about half of all Saudi university graduates last year.

Still, there’s a long way to go: Women only make up about 16% of the Saudi workforce in total. And other rules governing women’s behavior are still in place: Saudi women need to be accompanied by a male chaperone known as a ‘mahram’ when outside the house and are limited in the amount of time they can spend with male strangers.

As I said earlier in my last post, hope you aren't threading on the path of kharijiyyah? What you proclaim is exactly what jihadists like ISIS, Boko-are-rams, etc proclaim too, that there's no Islamic State in the world that's why they've created one in Iraaq and Syria after slaughtering Muslims.

Demmzy15:
Oga Seun,
1. I'll be forced to pay my Zakat which is meant for the poor, many Muslims are abandoning this even though it's a compulsory part of Islam.
2. My Salaah, in a country like saudi arabia, everything closes down once it's time for prayers.
3. Many ills of the society would at least be off, like clubs, casinos, brothels, etc. As a man you could be tempted at times
4. It's nice to be in an ideal Islamic society, even though they aren't perfect but at least I could achieve high level of spirituality.

Lagusta:
@oyb.....

Your post was a very intelligent one, and I agree with you in Toto....

However, I would still state that Saudi Arabia, as bad as it is, is still better than Pakistan.....

I heard that in that third world country (remember most of the 'muslims' there are grave-worshipping Sufis) women's rights have reached absolute zero (and I mean -273.15°C)

Women don't drive, they don't go to school, they work only in their fatger's farms, and once they get married, they become sex slaves, give birth to all their children in their ovaries, and potentially worship their husbands......

Saudi Arabia should really review their laws concerning women, their hypocritical muftis are just there to give all sorts of fatwa as far as the monarchy pays them millions of dinar; imagine saying pictures are forbidden but their king's portrait is in their homes.....

But it's nice meeting an intelligent Muslim like you, I really wish all Muslims relate the same way.....

Demmzy15:
The only law restricting women in saudi arabia is driving, but the women are better off than many countries. Even than those in the West, in fact the women of Saudi are more educated than the men to the extent that many of them are lawyers, teachers, doctors etc.

@underlined, it's better you keep silent of things you have no knowledge about because accusing a Muslim unjustly is a sin. If you truly know the meaning of hypocrisy, then I don't think you'll use the word anyhow.

Seun:
As a muslim, would you prefer to live in an Islamic country governed by Islamic laws and principles, rather than a secular country which defends the rights of women, muslims, christians, atheists, lesbians, gays, scantily clad babes, drinkers, and all minorities, and treats them equally?

If your answer is 'yes,' what are some of the ways in which you feel that an Islamic country would be better for your life than a secular country?

lexiconkabir:


Guy, pls if you have no knowledge of something, dont talk for talking sake, you "heard" youve not confirmed, so why bringing it up as facts? You said MOST are sufis, do you even know the meaning of most? You don't just talk for talking sake, talk with knowledge



Really?? They dont go to school, speaking without knowledge again.



Guy, you just "misyarning" anyhow, hope you know you might fall into slandering with these rubbish you saying?



Whats intelligent about his post? That he didnt know that kingship is legitimate in islam, or what?

The status of women in Pakistan is one of systemic gender subordination even though it varies considerably across classes, regions, and the rural/urban divide due to uneven socioeconomic development and the impact of tribal, feudal, and capitalist social formations on women's lives. The Pakistani women of today do, however, enjoy a better status than the past.

Quick facts
The stance of religious bodies has been mainly antagonistic towards women. Even rape victims have not been allowed to use DNA evidence to prove their cases, however the All Pakistan Ulema Council recently issued fatwas denouncing "honour killings". Other improvements are also being made as Lahore has inaugurated its first service of lady traffic wardens to manage the traffic and the country's most conservative province, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, is planning to increase the percentage of women in the police force.

Even with these improvements, rampant domestic abuse and a high rate of child marriages and forced marriages still remain. Pakistan is currently one of the dangerous countries in the world for women.

You said MOST are sufis, do you even know the meaning of most? You don't just talk for talking sake, talk with knowledge

Barelvi (Urdu: بَریلوِی‎, Barēlwī, Urdu pronunciation: [bəreːlʋi]) is a term used for the movement following the Sunni Hanafi school of jurisprudence, originating in Bareilly with over 200 million followers in South Asia. The name derives from the north Indian town of Bareilly, the hometown of its founder and main leader Ahmed Raza Khan (1856–1921). Although Barelvi is the commonly used term in the media and academia, the followers of the movement often prefer to be known by the title of Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at, (Urdu: اہل سنت والجماعت‎) or as Sunnis, a reference to their perception as forming an international majority movement.


The movement has to do with the practices and Sufism of Classic Islamic Mystics, it is often referred to as a Sufi movement. The movement was in existence (as is today) under the banner of Ahl-e-Sunnat Wal Jammat, but later started to refer to themselves as Barelvi's to differentiate from the Deobandi movement, which was influenced by the Wahhabi movement in Arabia.

Etymology
The movement is the Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at "People of the traditions [of Muhammad] and the community" and they refer to themselves as Sunnis. This terminology is used to lay exclusive claim to be the only legitimate form of Sunni Islam in South Asia, in opposition to the Deobandi, Ahl al-Hadith, Salafis and Darul Uloom Nadwatul Ulama followers.

History
The Barelvi movement is the actual Ahl-e-Sunnat Wal Jammat but became known as Barelvi due to their respective leader Ahmad Raza Khan who, due to the need of true form of Islam, established Islamic schools in 1904 with the Manzar-e-Islam. The Barelvi movement formed as a defense of the traditional mystic practices of South Asia, which it sought to prove and support.

Unlike most other Muslim movements in the region, the Barelvis opposed the Indian independence movement due to its leadership under Mahatma Gandhi. On the other hand, Khan and his movement were largely responsible for staying out of political issues.

Although the Darul Uloom Nadwatul Ulama was founded in 1893 to reconcile South Asia's Muslim sectarian differences, the Barelvis eventually withdrew their support from the council and criticized its efforts due to their heretical and radical beliefs counter to the Islamic values.

As a reaction to the anti-Islam film Innocence of Muslims, a conglomerate of forty Barelvi parties called for a boycott of Western goods, while at the same time condemning violence which had taken place in protest against the film.

Presence
India Today estimates that the vast majority of Muslims in India adhere to the Barelvi movement, and The Heritage Foundation, Time and The Washington Post give similar assessments for the vast majority of Muslims in Pakistan. Political scientist Rohan Bedi estimates that 60% of Pakistani Muslims are Barelvis.

The majority of Pakistani and Kashmir origin Britons in the United Kingdom are descended from Barelvi-majority areas. The Barelvi movement in Pakistan has received funding from Barelvis in the UK, in part as a reaction to rival movements in Pakistan also receiving funding from abroad. According to an editorial in the English-language Pakistani newspaper The Daily Times, many of these mosques have been however usurped by Saudi-funded radical organizations.

Beliefs and practices

Part of a series on
The Barelvi movement

Tomb of Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Qadri
Founders & Central figures
Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi
Peer Jamaat Ali Shah
Hamid Raza Khan
Mustafa Raza Khan Qadri
Maulana Abdul Hamid Qadri Badayuni
Muhammad Karam Shah al-Azhari
Mohammad Abdul Ghafoor Hazarvi

History/Movement
All India Sunni Conference
Tehreek-e-Khatme Nabuwwat
Shaheed Ganj Mosque
Movement against Shuddhi
Shah Bano Movement

Notable Scholars
Past
Khwaja Qamar ul Din Sialvi
Shah Ahmad Noorani
Abdul Sattar Khan Niazi
Arshadul Qaudri
Shamsul-hasan Shams Barelvi
Sarfraz Ahmed Naeemi
Sahibzada Haji Muhammad Fazal Karim
Nurul Islam Farooqi

Present
Kaukab Noorani Okarvi
Ashraf Asif Jalali
Qamaruzzaman Azmi
Ameen Mian Qaudri
Sheikh Aboobacker Ahmed
Syed Shujaat Ali Qadri
Muhammad Arshad Misbahi
Hamid Saeed Kazmi
Yaseen Akhtar Misbahi
Mukarram Ahmad
Muhammad Saeed Noori
Akhtar Raza Khan

Institutions
India Jamiatur Raza Bareilly
Manzar-e-Islam Bareilly
Al Jamiatul Ashrafia Azamgarh
Al-Jame-atul-Islamia Mau
Jamia-tul-Madina Global
Jamia Markazu Ssaquafathi Ssunniyya Kerala
Jamia Nizamia Hyderabad,

Pakistan Jamia Naeemia Lahore
Jamia Amjadia Rizvia Karachi
Jamia Nizamia Ghousia Wazirabad,
'United Kingdom Jamia Al-Karam
Al-Mustafa Islamic Cultural Centre Ireland

Literature & Notable Works
Kanzul Iman, Fatawa-e-Razvia
Bahar-e-Shariat, Husamul Haramain
Manaqib-al-Jaleela

Organizations
Dawat-e-Islami
World Islamic Mission
Jamiat Ulema-e-Pakistan
Jamaat Ahle Sunnat
Sunni Tehreek
Sunni Ittehad Council
Majlis-e-Tahaffuz-e-Khatme Nabuwwat
Tanzeem ul Madaris
Raza Academy
Dargah-e-Ala Hazrat

This box: viewtalkedit
Like other Sunni Muslims, Barelvis base their beliefs on the Quran and Sunnah and believe in monotheism and the prophethood of Muhammad. Barelvis follow the Maturidi school of Islamic theology and the Hanafi madhhab of fiqh in addition to choosing from the Qadiri, Chishti or Suhrawardi tariqas.

Beliefs regarding Muhammad
Barelvis have several beliefs regarding Muhammad's nature that distinguish them from Deobandi, Salafi and Shi'i groups in South Asia:

He is a human being but created from light.
He is present in many places at the same time.
He is still witnessing all that goes on in the world.
He has knowledge of that which is unknown, including the future.
Practices
Public celebration of Muhammad's birthday.
Veneration of dead and living saints. This consists of the intervention of an ascending, linked and unbroken chain of holy personages claimed to reach ultimately to Muhammad, who Barelvis believe intercede on their behalf with God.
Visiting the tombs of Muhammad, his companions and of pious Muslims, an act the Barelvis claim is supported by the Quran, Sunnah and acts of the companions, but which some opponents call "shrine-worshipping" and Grave worshiping and consider to be un-Islamic.
Use of devotional music (Sfeir 2007, p. 339) and dhikr.
Leaving the beard to grow for men; the movement views a man who trims his beard to less than a fist-length as a sinner, and shaving the beard is considered abominable.

Lagusta:


My dear brother lexiconkabir......



This is from Wikipedia, who is saying facts now

You know we once had a god discussion in the last thread oga Seun opened, don't mess it up by abusing me anyhow.....

Now, go and find out yourself whether Saudi muftis are hypocritical or not......

Lagusta:


The overwhelming majority (95 to 97%) of Pakistan's 190 million people are Muslim while the remaining 3–5% are Christian, Hindu, and other minorities. Sunnis form the majority at 80-85%, of which followers of Barelvi Islam make the vast majority, while the Shias make up between 5-20%.
Islam in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia app‎ - Installed....

Now, who is a barelvi Muslim??



Well well well......

You know what, let me sleep, when I wake up in shaa Allah I would expose some of the baseless fatwas some of those so-called muftis issue out of greed.....

oyb:

you think whites are racist, arabs are far worse. and they have very little respect for peoples rights etal. they regularly abuse second/third tier immigrants [uneducated bangladeshis, etc]
.

lexiconkabir:


You talking about saudi and you are bringing status of women in Pakistan, its irrational of you to blame saudi muftis for pakistani style of government.

You have to point out where i abused you.