hypocracy is not permissable in Islam. Allah instructed Musa (as) in Surah Taha that he should be mild and patient with Fir'awn, appealing to his heart, just perchance he may accept guidance. Abuzola thats not being conny. Muhammad (AS) was told by his Lord to be patient with the muslims, otherwise they may run away from him, even though he was a patient man, but was warned so that we are warned by it. Allah says to Muhammad by Surah Azhab to fear or be conscious of Allah, a way to inform you and I that we have to be that, for if His Messenger is warned, then what about us?

If you then say that Islam in the south is not Islam, then all those scholars and daayis, and people who immensed their lives in islam are no muslims according to you by accepting the proposal fo Sleek, who does not know a thing about Islam.


I am a product of the south and america, and I am alomst a Mumin, by Allah. We have people all over the world who take Quran and Muhammad's authntic Sunnah to heart, and they are not Nigerians and not northern nigerians for Islam is universal, and the Makkan or Madinan have no auhority over Islam. Thats the truth my brother and may Allah guide our hearts and unite them as ONE Hearts submitting to Him alone, without submitting to a Sheikh or any one else. Amin!


Muhammad told his daughter Fatimah Zara (RA) that oh fatima, if you want forgiveness, it is Allah you go to and not me even the Messenger (AS)!



BUT AM WAITING FOR THE QURANIC VERSES THAT SUPPORT KILLING OF APOSTATES!

@Sleek29:« #62 on: Today at 04:42:04 PM »

moderate islam is found in the west(where muslims are in the minority), there is no such thing as moderate islam, its just a way of getting their religion accepted in a secular society, the moment they have a greater number of followers than non-muslims they'll declare an islamic state and then the real islam comes up.

Which west are you talking about, except maybe Ondo and for sure Ekiti State? The rest of the other, even Osun state, can Islam be a minority?

I wo keferi yi, she o mo pe yoruba nimi? Tell me about Ibadan, Oyo, Ede, Iwo, Ogbomoso, Abeokuta, Ilaro, Ijebu Ode, and others, like the whole of Lagos state, except Badagry, where is the minority enclave of Muslims in this places?

If was Islam that gave Abiola the strength to confront the evil Awolowo in Ikenne by taking the Military boys along with him to make sure that Awolowo was incapacitated and could not do anything to him as he was invited to chair the muslim event in there. May Allah forgve Abiola by that single deed, confronting the tyrannical keferi Awolowo.

And sleek, when I start living in Nigeria, if you have a place you think that this Olabowale cant come, when invited, gather your force, because I will do exactly what Abiola did to Awolowo on you or any Christian tyrant. Emi Olabowale Eru Olorun Oba lo so be!

@olabowale- thats not what i mean. You are getting it wrong, west in the sense as western nation and not western nigeria, thats what i mean

Abuzola As Salaamualaykum WR taala WB; Please give me the Verses in the Quran and it is not a good thing not to share knowledge that a muslim has to better other Muslims.

Sleek said western Nigeria, and my respond is to that. But am only eager to know the Verses in the Quran that says one must kill apostates. There are tafsir to research it for better understanding as soon as you give the information.

Abuzola you are correct the West thing, as I reread the opinion of Sleek29. There is extremism permitted in Islam, Allah saying that "a nation of Middle course" is what Islam is to be. I am sure if Islam is not standing in opposition to "One World Order" spoken about by Papa Bush and then the gang are planning to carry it, it would have been a slam dunk by now.


@Nezan: « #60 on: Yesterday at 12:30:25 PM »

Why are you so untrustworthy? you said on the other thread that you care less for shi'te because to you, they are not muslims. I hate liars

Is there a liar worse than you when you lied against your Creator, His Angel and His Prophet, saying they are all gods?

I am shocked that are not ashamed and my dislike for Shia is about few of their thinkings, some Sunni Royal family and Kings I cant stand, an I cant stand my own evil deeds, too. Its a Shia cleric "Tarik Sala" from Egypt who told me to wear beard, so there. And we used to make a lot of Sunnah fast together.

But even if i post it, it will be meaningless since you don't like it

Is there a liar worse than you when you lied against your Creator, His Angel and His Prophet, saying they are all gods?

Who lied? was it not mohammed that lied against God and against his Angel, Michael? plagiarising the Bible and claiming that an angel was revealing to him. He will surely meet his waterloo on the day of judgement.

@Abuzola: A knowledge that is not shared could get one punished. I read enough of Quran to have found it. I hang around people of knowledge from all over the world that I have questions from some of the renown scholars. Today no one has provided a verse about Apostasy, except hadith that is so broad that need thorough explanation otherwise Christians will be Killing Muslims who convert to them, and muslims will be killing hindu who convert to them, and everyone will be killing everybody, if we just take the Ahadith as is.

@Nezan: You are one of the most incorrigibles. You have demostrated what Quran says about those who denied Muhammad (AS). They also denied Malaika Jibril (AS). Allah says that they are also enemy of Malaika Mikail (AS).

If you die in your state, you will be punished from the point of death all through grave, even if you burnt your body, your soul is unburnt and Allah will reasseble your body and you will go to Hell unopposed because Jesus himself as a slave of his Creator will hope the rush you faster in for the everlasting humiliation. Wait and we are all waiting along with the Creator.

You are planning and Allah is planning too to oppose your effort and render your effort futile, then you will be punished, for sure. Isear by Allah that if you die without being muslim, Hell is waiting eagerly for you.

Let me start with the Quran, 4:89
'they wish that you reject faith as they have rejected faith, and thus that you all become equal like one another. So take not auliya (friend or protector) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (i.e to accept Islam), but if they turn back (i.e become apostate), take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya nor helpers amongst them'

are you satisfy or you need another verse

mohammed said emphaticaly that hell awaits all muslims so dont give me that crap. It is you muslims that dont know your fate. While Jesus is presently in Heaven, the same can not be said of mohammed.

jesus said that he does not know you, so you will be led to lake of fire. this is the truth and i can give you the verse from yor bible! thats the fact.


can you do the same about your statement of lie you made on my messenger (as)?

@olabowale, did you see my post on killing apostate ?

@Abuzola; Salaamualaykum wR taala wB. JazakAllahu Khair. I saw your entry and the ahadith is very extensive, so am give you as a two parter, and please attention to the hilighted. Allah says He testifies that He is the Only Lord, so do the Angel make their testimonies and the people of Knowledge as well (Surah Al Imran). Muhammad (AS) said in ahadith that Allah loves believers, but loves the one with power; strength, wealth, knowledge, etc that does benefit others as well more than the ones who lack these things, for their belief befenfits themselves only.

Censuring the Companions for Disagreeing over the Hypocrites who Returned to Al-Madinah Before Uhud

Allah criticizes the believers for disagreeing over the hypocrites. There are conflicting opinions over the reason behind revealing this Ayah. Imam Ahmad recorded that Zayd bin Thabit said that Messenger of Allah marched towards Uhud. However, some people who accompanied him went back to Al-Madinah, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah divided into two groups concerning them, one saying they should be killed and the other objecting. Allah sent down,

[فَمَا لَكُمْ فِى الْمُنَـفِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ]

(Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites) The Messenger of Allah said,

«إِنَّهَا طَيْبَةُ، وَإِنَّهَا تَنْفِي الْخَبَثَ، كَمَا يَنْفِي الْكِيرُ خَبَثَ الْحَدِيد»

(She (Al-Madinah) is Taybah, and she expels filth, just as the billow expels rust from iron.) The Two Sahihs also recorded this Hadith. Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah was revealed about some people in Makkah who said they embraced Islam, yet they gave their support to the idolators. One time, theses people went out of Makkah to fulfill some needs and said to each other, "If we meet the Companions of Muhammad, there will be no harm for us from their side.'' When the believers got news that these people went out of Makkah, some of them said, "Let us march to these cowards and kill them, because they support your enemy against you.'' However, another group from the believers said, "Glory be to Allah! Do you kill a people who say as you have said, just because they did not perform Hijrah or leave their land Is it allowed to shed their blood and confiscate their money in this case'' So they divided to two groups, while the Messenger was with them, and did not prohibit either group from reiterating their argument. Thereafter, Allah revealed,

[فَمَا لَكُمْ فِى الْمُنَـفِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ]

(Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this Hadith. Allah said,

[وَاللَّهُ أَرْكَسَهُمْ بِمَا كَسَبُواْ]

(Allah has cast them back because of what they have earned.) meaning, He made them revert to, and fall into error. Ibn `Abbas said that,

[أَرْكَسَهُمْ]

(Arkasahum) means, `cast them' . Allah's statement,

[بِمَا كَسَبُواْ]

(because of what they have earned) means, because of their defiance and disobedience to the Messenger and following falsehood.

[أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَهْدُواْ مَنْ أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبِيلاً]

(Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him a way.) meaning, there will be no path for him, or way to guidance. Allah's statement,

[وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَآءً]

(They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected, and thus that you all become equal.) means, they wish that you fall into misguidance, so that you and they are equal in that regard. This is because of their extreme enmity and hatred for you. Therefore, Allah said,

[فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ حَتَّى يُهَاجِرُواْ فِى سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْاْ]

(So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back,) if they abandon Hijrah, as Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas. As-Suddi said that this part of the Ayah means, "If they make their disbelief public.''

Abuzola:

Let me start with the Quran, 4:89
'they wish that you reject faith as they have rejected faith, and thus that you all become equal like one another. So take not auliya (friend or protector) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (i.e to accept Islam), but if they turn back (i.e become apostate), take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya nor helpers amongst them'

are you satisfy or you need another verse

Thanks Mullah Abuzola for informing us. El hadj Olabs has been persistently overloading Atheists and Christians alike with his diatribe. Its scary though, but I think I like it that I know from a true believer than a westernised Muslim

Combatants and Noncombatants

Allah excluded some people;

[إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَى قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَـقٌ]

(Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace),) meaning, except those who join and take refuge with a people with whom you have a pact of peace, or people of Dhimmah, then treat them as you treat the people with whom you have peace. This is the saying of As-Suddi, Ibn Zayd and Ibn Jarir. In his Sahih, Al-Bukhari recorded the story of the treaty of Al-Hudaybiyyah, where it was mentioned that whoever liked to have peace with Quraysh and conduct a pact with them, then they were allowed. Those who liked to have peace with Muhammad and his Companions and enter a pact with them were allowed. It was reported that Ibn `Abbas said that this Ayah was later abrogated by Allah's statement,

[فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ]

(Then when the Sacred Months have passed, kill the idolators wherever you find them) Allah said,

[أَوْ جَآءُوكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُورُهُمْ]

(or those who approach you with their breasts restraining) referring to another type of people covered by the exclusion from fighting. They are those who approach the Muslims with hesitation in their hearts because of their aversion to fighting the Muslims. They do not have the heart to fight with the Muslims against their own people. Therefore, they are neither with nor against Muslims.

[وَلَوْ شَآءَ اللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقَـتَلُوكُمْ]

(Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you.) meaning, it is from Allah's mercy that He has stopped them from fighting you.

[فَإِنِ اعْتَزَلُوكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَـتِلُوكُمْ وَأَلْقَوْاْ إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ]

[b](So, if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace,) meaning, they revert to peace,

[فَمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيلاً]

(then Allah has opened no way for you against them), you do not have the right to kill them, as long as they take this position. This was the position of Banu Hashim (the tribe of the Prophet ), such as Al-`Abbas, who accompanied the idolators in the battle of Badr, for they joined the battle with great hesitation. This is why the Prophet commanded that Al-`Abbas not be killed, but only captured. Allah's statement, does

[سَتَجِدُونَ ءَاخَرِينَ يُرِيدُونَ أَن يَأْمَنُوكُمْ وَيَأْمَنُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ]

(You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people.) refers to a type of people who on the surface appear to be like the type we just mentioned. However, the intention of each type is different, for the latter are hypocrites. They pretend to be Muslims with the Prophet and his Companions, so that they could attain safety with the Muslims for their blood, property and families. However, they support the idolators in secret and worship what they worship, so that they are at peace with them also. These people have secretly sided with the idolators, just as Allah described them,

[وَإِذَا خَلَوْاْ إِلَى شَيَـطِينِهِمْ قَالُواْ إِنَّا مَعَكُمْ]

(But when they are alone with their Shayatin, they say: "Truly, we are with you.''). In this Ayah, Allah said,

[كُلَّ مَا رُدُّواْ إِلَى الْفِتْنِةِ أُرْكِسُواْ فِيِهَا]

(Every time they are sent back to Fitnah, they yield thereto.) meaning, they dwell in Fitnah. As-Suddi said that the Fitnah mentioned here refers to Shirk. Ibn Jarir recorded that Mujahid said that the Ayah was revealed about a group from Makkah who used to go to the Prophet [in Al-Madinah] pretending to be Muslims. However, when they went back to Quraysh, they reverted to worshipping idols. They wanted to be at peace with both sides. Allah commanded they should be fought against, unless they withdraw from combat and resort to peace. This is why Allah said,

[فَإِن لَّمْ يَعْتَزِلُوكُمْ وَيُلْقُواْ إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ]

(If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace) meaning, revert to peaceful and complacent behavior,

[وَيَكُفُّواْ أَيْدِيَهُمْ]

(nor restrain their hands) refrain from fighting you,

[فَخُذُوهُمْ]

(take (hold of) them), capture them,

[وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ]

(and kill them wherever you Thaqiftumuhum.), wherever you find them,

[وَأُوْلَـئِكُمْ جَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَـناً مُّبِيناً]

(In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them), meaning an unequivocal and plain warrant.[/b]

[وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ أَن يَقْتُلَ مُؤْمِناً إِلاَّ خَطَئاً وَمَن قَتَلَ مُؤْمِناً خَطَئاً فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ إِلاَّ أَن يَصَّدَّقُواْ فَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ عَدُوٍّ لَّكُمْ وَهُوَ مْؤْمِنٌ فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَاقٌ فَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ وَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةً فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ شَهْرَيْنِ مُتَتَابِعَيْنِ تَوْبَةً مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً - وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِناً مُّتَعَمِّداً فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَالِداً فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَاباً عَظِيماً ]

(92. It is not for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake; and whosoever kills a believer by mistake, he must set free a believing slave and submit compensation (blood money) to the deceased's family unless they remit it. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (is prescribed); and if he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, then compensation (blood money) must be paid to his family, and a believing slave must be freed. And whoso finds this beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive months in order to seek repentance from Allah. And Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.) (93. And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him.

@Z-murda: « #77 on: Today at 01:48:35 PM »
]quote]Thanks Mullah Abuzola for informing us. El hadj Olabs has been persistently overloading Atheists and Christians alike with his diatribe. Its scary though, but I think I like it that I know from a true believer than a westernised Muslim [quote][/quote]He may have have more knowledge than me. Alhamdulillah. But a westernized Muslim? Not in a long shot.

I think America pretty much have good muslims that will make most in the so called Mudlim country feel some shame about their weak practices of Sunnah!

Let me start with the Quran, 4:89
'they wish that you reject faith as they have rejected faith, and thus that you all become equal like one another. [size=18pt]So take not auliya (friend or protector) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (i.e to accept Islam), but if they turn back (i.e become apostate), take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them[/size], and take neither auliya nor helpers amongst them'

Olabowale is not an honest muslim as Abuzola . . . .  

@sir olabowale, you went off topic. To cut the story short , kindly post the hadith number or internet hadith i.e volume, book and number, interpreting that verse, post it then a final conclusion will be made. Waiting ,

Shwikh Abuzola, I did not go off topic except that I gave you Tafsir of the ayah, for that was the explanation, which shows the Apostates are of three different types; the one you fight and kill if you can is the group that progandas and takes up arm against you. From the below, you will find the ample information all of the preaches against killing just for leaving Islam, except there is the qualifier elements; openhostile enemy will to kill the muslis and hope that Islam is vanquished.


www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm - Cached - Simila


www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm - Cached - Similar

What i asked is: let me have the tafsir source in a hadith, i need to confirm it before believing it, anybody can form his or her tafsir

Go to Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

More importantly, the verse you quoted was explained by the verses below it, in the same way that the verse followed as to Muta abrogated it.

4:88 : Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).

4:89 : They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90 : Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.
4:91 : You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.

I won't accept ibn kathir, i need hadith. Or write the link directly to ibn kathir's explaination

Go to www.tafsir.com

or www.tafsir ibn kathir.com

or www.tafsirofQuran.com

My brother choose any tafsir, you will have to accept the verses 91 and 92 that they complement as explanation of 90, where 88 and 89 lead to 90 of Surah Nisaa.


There is only one ahadth that speaks about apostasy, and it says whoever leaves him religion kill him! It did not say whoever simply leaves Islam must be simply be killed by Muslms! These are the elements you must pay attention to.

Let me ask you, how do you know that Muta is not permissable, except the verse that follows it, as it cancels it?

@olabowale: None of the link has the answer to my question. Verse 90 is a description of nigeria scenario, where christian and muslim have a treaty in the constitution i.e mutual trust and verse 91 those who seek treaty or peace or jizya amongst their leader

@olabowale
check king Abdul aziz or fahad translation Quran you will be relief


on hadith, see sahìh muslim, hadith number 1023
Abdullah narrated that the messenger of God said,'The blood money of a muslim who swears that there is no god but God and that I am the messenger, cannot be spilled except in three cases. In retribution for murder, for adultery committed by a married person and for the one who reneges from islam and leaves the muslim'

first hadith

@Abuzola and Olabowale

I'm not convinced that this thread deserves all the energy you are putting in and with a few un intelligent guys at the side line tuning you to go on and on is what I really cannot understand>