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Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by Nobody: 7:34am On Jul 25, 2016 |
I asked you a question,you've still not answered. What is it you know as far as mechanical engineering is concerned that you feel I don't know. I repeat leave paper qualifications. I anticipate your reply. The only thing you can boast of is paper qualification,technically you are not superior,and this accounts for the reason Nigeria is poor today. Our country choose to disenfranchise many people that deserve a shot. Tell me one thing you do that we don't do,is it that we are alien to design calculations,engineering softwares,practicals(even if not many we still did few practicals),gns courses,engineering mathematics. Truth is, your assertions which tries to drag a poly student down defies logic. Even with the few courses the system denies us,we still treat the intoto of engineering .Its a shame those who handle educational matters do not understand d essence of a polytechnic. Since the poly is being handled like a university,its imperative to make it a degree awarding institution,no need for all these half measures that cheats people. I don't think we are ready to have a polytechnic system in nigeria,we don't have the manpower to run it,except we hand them over to the chinese or asians Cc conqueredwest mrvitalis: 2 Likes |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by opey25(m): 7:44am On Jul 25, 2016 |
ConqueredWest:why is it that the academic requirement for admission into Nigerian polytechnics is lower than that of universities? for example the UTME cut off mark for polytechnics is not as high as that of universities. 2 Likes |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by mrvitalis(m): 8:00am On Jul 25, 2016 |
santafe:The polytechnic are not duplicating anything... The difference is clear What the job of an engineer? Solve problems using the laws of science and applying complex mathematics... Technologists is very knowledgeable yes, but to a particular area in the engineering feild (automobile, power plants, welding or electrical machine), if this solution created by the engineer is in his area, he Interpreted this solution to the technicians.. Who in turn carry out the instructions in the design to produce what u have... In this world theory is seen as being far important to practicals and it is rightly so..... Now I dare u to show me any industry in this world, were the engineer and Technologist is at the same level... There is a leader in every team and in engineering the engineer is the leader followed by the Technologist then technician then craft man.... Am tired of this explanation... I showed u an aticle from a school in the USA that offered all the programme and they explained the difference and there positions... Don't know what to tell u again |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by mrvitalis(m): 8:08am On Jul 25, 2016 |
illuminated93:Bro if u go to the first page I copied an explanation from a school that offered the three level of engineering certification(b. Eng, HND, n ond) As for what I know that u don't know?? It's funny bro, u deal with already existing technology I deal with creating new technologies... We are world apart |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by ConqueredWest: 8:54am On Jul 25, 2016 |
opey25: Because Nigerians don't know the difference and importance between Technology and Engineering. if we know and teach each of them the way it should taught and not mixed up, we will not be totally dependant on foreign products. |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by ConqueredWest: 8:56am On Jul 25, 2016 |
OrlandoOwoh: You only answered one question Go back and answer all the questions starting from IS A UNIVERSITY THE SAME AS A UNIVERSITY COLLEGE |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by Nobody: 9:03am On Jul 25, 2016 |
This thread is quite interesting. All posters have handled this discussion maturely. @illuminated: what course(s) were not included from your curriculum that hinders polytechnics from awarding a degree? i believe you are saying your diploma program was modelled like a university degree. It's important to know that the way an engineering tech curriculum would be taught may differ at different polytechnics..much depends on the instructors. An instructor with an msc or phd would most likely teach you the way he was taught in the university while an instructor with an hnd would teach you the way engineering tech is meant to be taught. i guess that's where the system really needs to be revamped. Same happens in some advanced country too. The best polytechnics in north america are usually the ones that have mostly diploma grads as instructors. @mrvitals...i understand your point and the heirachy systems. You are indeed correct that heirachy does exist in Engineering. Someone with an engineering technologist diploma cannot head an Engineering department in a standard engineering organization. It's not uncommon to see a twenty something years old engineer leading or supervising an engineering dept full of engineering technologists with donkey years of experience. It happens in the electrical engineering industry. The difference is the paper. One has an engineering degree and the other an engineering technology diploma. They cant do without each other. The engineering tech is the middle man. He is the connection between the technician(Journeyman) and the Engineer. In my opinion..hnd should be scrapped. what we should have is Journeyman : OND: Degree It's pointless awarding someone that spends 4-5 years in a post secondary institution a diploma! 1 Like |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by Nobody: 9:21am On Jul 25, 2016 |
Smiles,alright tell us what new technology have you built as your contribution to engineering? It's all talk talk,paper qualification. With all due respect you are not spectacular. You only become agile when it comes to your bsc degree. Technically,you ain't there.You are talking creating technologies,tell me what have you created? Its people with your mindset that prevent talents from excelling,because you believe that people shouldn't be equals as a way of massaging your ego. Cc conqueredwest mrvitalis: 2 Likes |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by ConqueredWest: 9:26am On Jul 25, 2016 |
mrvitalis: Your definition of Technologist is the incomplete definition taught over the years that have kept Nigeria backward Technologically. If you read your definition, you will see that a Technologist only interpret a Design and instruct a technician. This definition of Technologist is the reason why our polytechnics missed it and unable to graduate people who can reproduced technological products. Nigerians should take note It is one thing to Design and another thing for that Design to Work in Reality. So many times, the Practicability of a product is different from its original Design. This is where a Technologist comes in. THIS IS THE TRUE FUNCTION OF A TECHNOLOGIST 1) Making a Design Practicable if necessary with the knowledge of existing Technology with little or much or no changes to the original Design. THESE ARE WHAT A TECHNOLOGIST MUST BE TAUGHT IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE HIS GOAL 1) He must be taught how existing technologies in his field of study are produced and how they work. 2) He must be taught things to consider or watch out for in order to make a Design Practicable. |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by OrlandoOwoh(m): 9:27am On Jul 25, 2016 |
ConqueredWest:I've answered your question. The certificate issued Chinua Achebe by the University College, Ibadan, was it inferior to the ones issued by European and American universities at the time? Didn't Achebe use his certificate from UC, Ibadan to teach the English man his language? |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by ConqueredWest: 9:27am On Jul 25, 2016 |
mrvitalis: Your definition of Technologist is the incomplete definition taught over the years that have kept Nigeria backward Technologically. If you read your definition, you will see that a Technologist only interpret a Design and instruct a technician. This definition of Technologist is the reason why our polytechnics missed it and unable to graduate people who can reproduced technological products. Nigerians should take note It is one thing to Design and another thing for that Design to Work in Reality. So many times, the Practicability of a product is different from its original Design. This is where a Technologist comes in. THIS IS THE TRUE FUNCTION OF A TECHNOLOGIST 1) Making a Design Practicable if necessary with the knowledge of existing Technology with little or much or no changes to the original Design. THESE ARE WHAT A TECHNOLOGIST MUST BE TAUGHT IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE HIS GOAL 1) He must be taught how existing technologies in his field of study are produced and how they work. 2) He must be taught things to consider or watch out for in order to make a Design Practicable. OrlandoOwoh Mrvitalis illuminated93 opey25 santafe princey83 |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by ConqueredWest: 9:47am On Jul 25, 2016 |
In summary While an Engineer is Scientifically knowledgeable in order to be able to Design A Technologist is knowledgeable in existing technologies in his field of study in order to be able to make a Design Practicable if necessary with little or much or no changes to the original Design. So for Nigeria and Africa to achieve industrial development, Her polytechnics must teach the proper thing and her Technologists must not be seen as inferior to her Engineers and Scientists. Mrvitalis illuminated93 princey83 orlandoOwoh opey25 Santafe |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by jpphilips(m): 10:00am On Jul 25, 2016 |
ConqueredWest: Who built UI? American University in Cairo was built by who? American international University West Africa in Gambia was built by who? British university in Cairo nko? Nigeria was a British colony and they modelled UI, OAU and UNILAG's curriculum after Cambridge's, brought Cambridge Professors to run it, what was the need building more? what was the population of Nigeria and interest in education at the time? was it not the time when communities contribute for one of them to go to higher institution? It is complete fallacy to say they deliberately refused to build universities, in my own opinion, they left us in a hurry, the reason SA was quintessential to your warped analogy is because they stayed longer in SA than other African countries. |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by jpphilips(m): 10:06am On Jul 25, 2016 |
mrvitalis: Most servicing companies place Bsc and Hnd in tandem, it is only JV producing companies that discriminate in the oil industry, however, I think theirs is understandable because both do different jobs, again i have another feeling that it is still the Nigerian bureaucracy that crept into these companies after all, Nigeria still holds 60% of the JVs in most producing companies. |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by Nobody: 10:07am On Jul 25, 2016 |
Very enlightening post. The engineers claim a technologist isn't creative and empowered enough to come out with designs; Now I'm referring to design in a purely calculative sense. In the developed world,this is true. A technologist is taught how technologies work,how to put components together to produce whatever,how to select materials,how to make designs practicable .He isn't concerned with complex calculations .While an engineer in the developed world is concerned with applying mathematical elements in coming up with a paper work. The engineer calculates to make sure on paper everything works just fine and within a safe measure,and also as a way of knowing an input safe enough to produce a required output. We understand all these,their roles are different but complementing. Talking nigeria,the hnd holder is more or less like the bsc holder. Its stupid when a nigerian engineer sees a hnd holder as a junior,reason being, they were taught same courses with little to no differing style of teaching. The argument is this, make the polytechnics degree awarding institutions because they seem not to be different from their university counterparts. Why should the nigerian system create a class struggle among students that learn basically the same thing. The discrimination should only come up among say Ond and Bsc..not a nigerian hnd holder and a nigerian bsc holder. Btw the emphasis is on the NIGERIAN hnd/bsc holder since in Nigeria the European definition of a technologist isn't really followed to the letter. Cc mrvitalis,conqueredwest,opey25,santafe,OrlandoOwoh ConqueredWest: 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by jpphilips(m): 10:07am On Jul 25, 2016 |
OrlandoOwoh: Dont mind him |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by tobbypat: 10:18am On Jul 25, 2016 |
Hmmmm..........dis una argument to much sef.. Check this out....
Certificates Is Discrimination – Wole
Soyinka (SHARE THIS)
The recent media sprout pertaining to the long
lasted discrimination between holders of Bsc
and Hnd degrees have successfully passed
through to the second reading in the House Of
Assembly.
However, the nobel Laurette; Professor Wole
Soyinka was invited to Channels TV to share his
opinion on the aforesaid issue. And he gave
clarification on the matter by saying the
Government is the root cause of the
discrimination sprouting across all industries.
“Basically, looking at this, one would agree the
cut off marks for these institutions are clearly
not the same. But who sets these cut off marks?
What would it cost the Government to ensure
the appropriate bodies charged with the sole
responsibility of setting the yardsticks into these
institutions; get to review the measures.
These are pertinent things we shy away from. I
can tell you I have been across products from
both institutions and you should know they both
produce quacks and good products. So its a
question of individual development to an extent.
But as regards the nomenclature of the divide.
Most people claim, perhaps if the Government
can put in facilities to upgrade the polytechincs,
maybe they can measure up. But that is pure
rubbish.
When was the last time facilities were installed
in universities across the nation? All these rants
need to stop, because its like planting a seed of
enmity among these two categories of students.
When reliance is totally placed on a government
on issues like this, the society fails to move
forward. I personally think its high time students
across both divides started looking forward to
what they can do for themselves as individuals
than what some certificate can do for you.
Geniuses are made and not born, but
apparently, we have a government that isn’t
ready to scrutinize the frustrations being caused
by the educational sector to these children at the
early stage. When I pass Jamb a couple of times
but refused admission several times at the
university just because I didn’t make them both
my first choice and second choice, won’t I opt
for a polytechnic. Or must I keep trying till I
wield grey hair? We need to think deep about
these things.
The government has really neglected its checks
and balances on that. A BSC holder and an Hnd
holder should be equal given that they were
both able to squarely take-on whatever that was
thrown at them during their cause of study.”
He was quoted saying these words Live on Channels tv... |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by Nobody: 10:26am On Jul 25, 2016 |
The funny thing is,the mechanical Engineering courses inputed into the Pgd syllabus are things we polytechnic students have already treated during our hnd. They just give those courses a new course code. Isn't this funny? If there's anyone that knows better,please he should enlighten me. princey83: 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by jpphilips(m): 10:36am On Jul 25, 2016 |
ConqueredWest: Stop making blind arguments before you mis inform feeble minds; The term university college is used in a number of countries to denote institutions that offer tertiary education but do not have full or independent university status. A university college is often part of a larger university. University college Ibadan was modelled after Cambridge, once that is done, the later became a university college because it doesn't have its own status hence under the "cover" of cambridge. It is the same cambridge degree they were awarded, ask your father, he must have taken the cambridge entrance exam to study in UCI in the 50's, paid tuition to Cambridge even awarded cambridge certified degrees. overall, University college is the same thing with a university just the status that is affected not curriculum nor the degree, a typical example is what we call satellite campuses here. Zik and Awolowo studying abroad has nothing to do with the status of any institution, if they can afford it why not? Listen; Zik was 48yrs when UCI started, before UCI got its accreditation for Zik's course, Zik would have been 52yrs, do you expect him to start pursuing a university career at 52yrs just to school in UCI? Zik na your mate? that dude was born in 1904 at a time when the missionaries were still finding their feet in Nigeria, stop comparing apples with oranges. 2 Likes |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by olawalepopoola: 11:19am On Jul 25, 2016 |
No where in the world can HND be compared to B.Sc. No where in the world can you find a HND graduate being admitted into masters without passing through PGD. Have you noticed that no lecturer in the polytechnic has less than a B.Sc? Universities are meant to train analytical minds. The results of their analysis is then transferred to technicians and technologists who build into machines. What is Technology - Technology is a PROCESS or TECHNIQUE of carrying out scientific study. All technology have always be founded on laws and theories that are only developed in universities across the world. 1 Like |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by joyandfaith: 11:20am On Jul 25, 2016 |
mrvitalis: bsc engineering graduate not egual to engineer. we do not even need more than 36 universities in this country. we need more of polytechnics. we manufacture less but repair more. |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by alade112(m): 11:33am On Jul 25, 2016 |
Mstw I will take all of your serious When our so called engineers or technologists starts building and inventing All these arguments are useless. All these boys that learn from our local mechanic are 99.9% better than our so called educated mechanical engineers same goes to electrical line too. All you can offer is just paper works. One illiterate chinese man will just come all the way from China to direct the actions and control our so called engineers with HND,B.sc, B.tech, Masters etc 2 Likes |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by mrvitalis(m): 11:44am On Jul 25, 2016 |
illuminated93:Lol bro u are saying what u feel am. Stating facts In Nigeria B.Engr holders beg to do the work of a technician (pipeline welding) But the fact is B.Engr >>than HND and that's just it A HND holder can develop him self to be better than some B.Engr holders yes... But there is no sense in making them equal cos they are not |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by mrvitalis(m): 11:54am On Jul 25, 2016 |
jpphilips:U are wrong I have been in the oil industry most b. Engr holders in oik servicing companies are employed as technicians But a HND holder can never be employed as an engineer unless he has pgd That's a fact |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by mrvitalis(m): 11:58am On Jul 25, 2016 |
ConqueredWest:Is a pharmacist infero to a doctor?? Can a pharmacist head a doctor?? And they are even both degree holders |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by agwu123(m): 11:58am On Jul 25, 2016 |
No where in the world can HND be compared to B.Sc. No where in the world can you find a HND graduate being admitted into masters without passing through PGD. Have you noticed that no lecturer in the polytechnic has less than a B.Sc? Universities are meant to train analytical minds. The results of their analysis is then transferred to technicians and technologists who build into machines. What is Technology - Technology is a PROCESS or TECHNIQUE of carrying out scientific study. All technology have always be founded on laws and theories that are only developed in universities across the world. (Quote) (Report) (Like) (Share) Your post above has revealed your level of ignorance. Apart from academic masters (for those that want to go into teaching/lecturing), you can be admitted into master degree programmes with your HND within and outside Nigeria. Please go and read University of Ibadan (UI) Post Graduate School prospectus for various post graduate programmes. Majority of us here are just advertising our ignorance and shallow mindedness to the entire world. I wouldn't blame you off course, you are beclouded with the ripple effect of the bureaucratic cum political tendencies of the managers of our educational system in Nigeria, a grave sin that have plunged Nigeria to the abyss of underdevelopment over the years. May God help us always to do the right thing. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by mrvitalis(m): 12:01pm On Jul 25, 2016 |
ConqueredWest:Give me a reference for ur definition |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by agwu123(m): 12:02pm On Jul 25, 2016 |
Your post above has revealed your level of ignorance. Apart from academic masters (for those that want to go into teaching/lecturing), you can be admitted into master degree programmes with your HND within and outside Nigeria. Please go and read University of Ibadan (UI) Post Graduate School prospectus for various post graduate programmes. Majority of us here are just advertising our ignorance and shallow mindedness to the entire world. I wouldn't blame you off course, you are beclouded with the ripple effect of the bureaucratic cum political tendencies of the managers of our educational system in Nigeria, a grave sin that have plunged Nigeria to the abyss of underdevelopment over the years. May God help us always to do the right thing. olawalepopoola: 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by agwu123(m): 12:03pm On Jul 25, 2016 |
Your post above has revealed your level of ignorance. Apart from academic masters (for those that want to go into teaching/lecturing), you can be admitted into master degree programmes with your HND within and outside Nigeria. Please go and read University of Ibadan (UI) Post Graduate School prospectus for various post graduate programmes. Majority of us here are just advertising our ignorance and shallow mindedness to the entire world. I wouldn't blame you off course, you are beclouded with the ripple effect of the bureaucratic cum political tendencies of the managers of our educational system in Nigeria, a grave sin that have plunged Nigeria to the abyss of underdevelopment over the years. May God help us always to do the right thing. olawalepopoola: 1 Like |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by Nobody: 12:04pm On Jul 25, 2016 |
Your logic is warped. Both are distinct professions. Are both not allowed to get to the top most echelon of their professions? Moreover,both are administered by distinct bodies,the nma (medical association) and the psn(pharmaceutical society). I trust that you are enlightened, please don't make me see you as a quack all because of your warped way of reasoning.. Cc conqueredwest mrvitalis: 1 Like |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by joyandfaith: 12:16pm On Jul 25, 2016 |
agwu123: thank you. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Hnd/bsc Dichotomy Removed by joyandfaith: 12:19pm On Jul 25, 2016 |
mrvitalis:bad comparison. |
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