Hi Deep sight,am new to the forum and i saw in one of the threads you indicated that you are a deist.I have to say deists are a hard bunch to find.Just had some questions and points i would like to raise about deism.

Deism is the belief that an impersonal creator of the universe exists.i.e god simply created the universe and let it to run its course.He does not intervene in human affairs,nor intervene in the cosmos.He sort of,put everything in place and pressed the start button and went to sleep.

Arguments against desim are quite hard since deism entails very minimalistic propositions.

But according to me,i believe that deism is highly unlikely and lacks explanatory power.It raises more questions than answers.

This is why,assuming that deism is true,and a god actually created the universe and "let it be" we are left wondering

1.Why? why did he create anything at all?or there is no reason why he created the universe i.e it was simply arbitrary?

2.Contrary to deistic claims that the God in deism is impersonal,the simple act of creation proves that he's personal.

The Theist and Deist will agree on the following proposition:

A creator god who exists brought the universe into existence.

The task is to find out what characteristic this God might have,and ultimately determine whether He's personal or impersonal.

The following seem to be true:

1.He's immaterial - since all matter came into existence with the big bang,then this god must be immaterial otherwise he would also need a cause for his existence.

2. He's timeless - Since time began with the universe,this being must have existed outside of time.

3.uncaused - An infinite temporal regress of causes cannot exist.

4.Intelligent - for him to set all those laws of the universe he must be very intellligent.

5.very powerful - The big bang was the other of all explosions.equivalent to trillions of atomic bombs all firing at the same time.For a being to bring such activate such an act he must the very powerful.

6.Personal - this is the contentious part.But i'll demonstrate why it follows from the the simple act of creation that these being must be personal.

Why should the cause of the universe be personal?

1. The only things we know that are immaterial are abstract objects such as numbers and the mind.But abstract objects do not stand in Causal relations.Therefore the transcendent Cause of the universe must be a Mind.
2. Free Agent or Impersonal Mechanical Cause?
Trying to account for a temporal effect from a timeless Cause which is mechanical is problematic. if it was a mechanical cause,then the Cause could never exist independent from its effect,for if the sufficient condition of the effect is given,then the effect must be given as well.
The only way for the cause to be timeless but for its effect to begin in time is for the cause to be a personal agent who freely choses to create an effect without any determinant conditions.

Therefore it follows that the creator of the universe is a personal being.But,i am aware,that some deists would agree with everything i said.Their disclaimer might be be that,they simply dont believe that this God created humans or intervenes in worldly affairs.

So we would end up having a personal God,who does not intervene in human affairs.

To me,this sounds very implausible. It would draw us back to question number 1,Why?why create anything at all if he will not get involved in his creation.Since we have established that he freely chose to create the universe and everything in it,even humans (by process of evolution), it seems more likely that he had a reason for creating.

It sounds rather unconvincing that a being who has lived in a timeless state would simpy create a universe with moral human beings for NO REASON.

And finally, the argument from morality demonstrates that objective morals exists and thus necessitate a moral law giver who is God. ( I would not mind discussing this point in another thread).

In conclusion, I think Deism stands accused of lacking explanatory power and not standing up to philosophical scrutiny.I don't see how Deism can answer the "Why" despite arguments that i have stated above indicating that this "god" intended and consequently created a universe with moral creatures.

Hopefully Deep Sight you will be able to shed more light.

Hello easylogic,

Welcome to Nairaland. I notice that you have only just joined NL today (Date Registered: Today (27 Sept 2009) at 02:03:06 PM), only a few minutes or hours ago. It is very unlikely that as a novice to this site, you would have sufficient knowledge about the point of view of individual users, to target direct questions at them.

From this I can only conclude that you are an existing user who is hiding behind a different account. Please, reveal who you are.

Actually i am a new user,though i have visited the forum a couple of times as a visitor.I came across Deep Sights comments as a Deist on the thread about Christianity being rubbish.(i think).In am usually interested in Philosophy especially philosophy of religion.

@ Easylogic -

Thank you sooo much. Your post is easily the best and most incisive post i have read on this forum - and that is saying quite alot.

First off: Yes indeed, i did categorise myself as "an empirical and intuitive Deist.". But you must be aware that Deism, like many other perspectives, is a world-view which has different "faces". In other words, not all Deists agree of all principles of Deism. Given that it is not a formalized religion, there is no absolute standard for all the principles of Deism. . . except the immovable one - namely -

[i]That all that exists, was created by a Supreme Eternal Being - "God.".

You very succintly pointed out that the major question is: what are the characteristics of the uncaused cause, the Supreme Being, and i must say that you did a fantastic job setting out the essential and obvious attributes of the Uncaused Cause.

Not all Deists believe that God is strictly impersonal.

I do not believe that God is impersonal, although i am certain that God's core, is absolutely unknowable and unnapproachable. A deep mystery beyond all time and all space. Nevertheless i do agree with you on the statement that the very act of creation, is by its inherent nature, a personal act, and for this reason, i am a brand of Deist who accepts God to be personal. But that is as far as it goes. . . all other definitions and attributes espoused by the Abrahamic Religions, i cannot necessaily vouch for.

There is thus no disagreement with your brilliant write-up, i believe i am on all fours with the principles you enunciated.

But since you bothered to seek my world view on the subject, let me give a short summary thereon.

Please note that the below, unlike all my other posts, is not a rational justification of anything: it is the summary of my personal creed - and i will only explain it, but not try to justify it to any one.

I called myself an empirical and intuitive Deist. . . empirical because i strongly believe that the existence of the Supreme Deity can be logically deduced or inferred. . . intuitive because i believe that a spark of the creator-nature residing within each human being, can lead one to intuitively sense the things of God, even as the greatest simpleton on earth, without the need for advanced thinking.

So here's the summary of my personal Deistic Creed.

Space. . . Infinite. . .

Time. . . Eternal. . .

Thus an infinite still oneness of infinity.

That oneness of infinity is a singularity, an absolute oneness of all.

That absolute oneness of infinity, is thus a reality that needn't be caused. It is real, permanent, extant, and since infinite, is inherently in itself all things that could ever be. That oneness of Infinity, is what i understand to be God.

Because God is Infinite then, he carries within his core the following -

   1. Perfection (Oneness implies no deviation or variation and is the ultimate perfection. But this is a deep area, it is not perfection as conceived by the Abrahamic religions, it is the perfection of a singularity)

  2. Eternity

  3. The In-substantiate Imprimatur for everything that exists.

Given God's eternal nature, everything that lies within him expresses itself.

That self expression, is what is known as creation.

Everything that exists, therefore, exists within God'S IN-SUBSTANTIATE MIND, or as an expression of that Mind.

Harmony.

Because God is a singularity, he connotes oneness and therefore perfect harmony. This is why all things in nature strive towards harmony.

And this forms the basis for the human conscience.

Human Beings are Spirit Sparks emerging from the Light of God (all things emerge from God). Initially unconscious, we live within creation stiving towards perfection and harmony. God, in his perfect grace, allows this process to be a difficult and even tortuous one, thus permitting the human spirit develop, grow, and form its own complete consciousness within reality.

Life is a dream. And its going on in the ultimate mind. God's mind. That mind is reality.

Because that mind is infinite, it contains all things, good and evil, and thus Good and Evil will always express themselves in creation.

This leads to balance, and also, ultimately, strives towards perfection - towards God.

I thus do know that it will always be well with those human beings who strive for harmony within their spirits.

This is a summary only, and is not intended as a justification or proof of anything; i offer it because you asked, and although i am happy to expatiate on it, i will not defend it.

Thus you can see my peculiar brand of Deism.

I hope this was useful for you.

Peace.

Deep Sight,

Thnk you for taking time to reply to my post.I must say that your brand of deism is quite a handful!

Many deists would not call you a deist.Infact the strict traditional definition of a deist is an impersonal creator,or "the unmoved mover" as Aristotle put it.Deist such as Anthony flew ( who was once an Atheist now a deist),believe that this creator simply set everything up and stepped back.

Your form of Deism sounds abit like pantheism mixed with Theism.

And i find little grounds to disagree with you.Ofcourse except the purpose of mankind and the true nature of God.

Maybe i might take time to scrutinize your view and see if it is internally consistent,then if it maps to reality.

I believe God does not intervene in human affairs because I have take a closer look at things and found this to be so. I strongly suspect that God created the world in the beginning, put perfect laws in place to govern it, and left it - not because he does not care but because the laws are sufficient to govern it. In the physical realm the world governed by the laws described in physics. In the spiritual realm it is governed by what they call Karma in the East.
When you die, you come back. The life you live now will likely determine the amount of difficulties you will face in the next life. If you were born into circumstances that afforded you a lot of comfort and happiness, it is likely because you deserve it. Same goes for those who experience suffering. If you close your palms to your fellow man, you may have nothing in your next life. If you share your last, you will have abundance so that you can continue the good work. If you are wicked, you will come back where you will suffer much difficulties so as to learn power is not your sole right. Many, on learning the truth about reincarnation, realise that their life encounters may be the result of Karma, accept it and try to move on - this is known as "meeting your Karma".
But the above should not be taken too literally to mean that someone who is born into wealth is being rewarded and someone who is born poor, blind or sickly is being punished. Sometimes it is all meant to teach you a lesson. It may be that you are poor and you think all rich people are wicked. You may be born rich to show you that is not so and to give you the chance to use money well. For example, I have a friend who has never tasted alcohol in his life. He said he had an uncle whose life was ruined by alcohol. Now, it is possible he was a drunk in his last incarnation and was sent there so he may learn early on in life.
My observation is that prayer changes nothing, except, sometimes, the person praying. God does not intervene. Religious people can afford to wicked to their fellow man because they claim to love God whom they can't see. If only they know that all God requires is that they love their fellow man.
This makes sense TO ME much more than the heaven taught by the Abrahamic faiths.

MyJoe:

I believe God does not intervene in human affairs because I have take a closer look at things and found this to be so. I strongly suspect that God created the world in the beginning, put perfect laws in place to govern it, and left it - not because he does not care but because the laws are sufficient to govern it. In the physical realm the world governed by the laws described in physics. In the spiritual realm it is governed by what they call Karma in the East.
When you die, you come back. The life you live now will likely determine the amount of difficulties you will face in the next life. If you were born into circumstances that afforded you a lot of comfort and happiness, it is likely because you deserve it. Same goes for those who experience suffering. If you close your palms to your fellow man, you may have nothing in your next life. If you share your last, you will have abundance so that you can continue the good work. If you are wicked, you will come back where you will suffer much difficulties so as to learn power is not your sole right. Many, on learning the truth about reincarnation, realise that their life encounters may be the result of Karma, accept it and try to move on - this is known as "meeting your Karma".
But the above should not be taken too literally to mean that someone who is born into wealth is being rewarded and someone who is born poor, blind or sickly is being punished. Sometimes it is all meant to teach you a lesson. It may be that you are poor and you think all rich people are wicked. You may be born rich to show you that is not so and to give you the chance to use money well. For example, I have a friend who has never tasted alcohol in his life. He said he had an uncle whose life was ruined by alcohol. Now, it is possible he was a drunk in his last incarnation and was sent there so he may learn early on in life.
My observation is that prayer changes nothing, except, sometimes, the person praying. God does not intervene. Religious people can afford to wicked to their fellow man because they claim to love God whom they can't see. If only they know that all God requires is that they love their fellow man.
This makes sense TO ME much more than the heaven taught by the Abrahamic faiths.

GBAM!

MyJoe:

I believe God does not intervene in human affairs because I have take a closer look at things and found this to be so. I strongly suspect that God created the world in the beginning, put perfect laws in place to govern it, and left it - not because he does not care but because the laws are sufficient to govern it. In the physical realm the world governed by the laws described in physics. In the spiritual realm it is governed by what they call Karma in the East.
When you die, you come back. The life you live now will likely determine the amount of difficulties you will face in the next life. If you were born into circumstances that afforded you a lot of comfort and happiness, it is likely because you deserve it. Same goes for those who experience suffering. If you close your palms to your fellow man, you may have nothing in your next life. If you share your last, you will have abundance so that you can continue the good work. If you are wicked, you will come back where you will suffer much difficulties so as to learn power is not your sole right. Many, on learning the truth about reincarnation, realise that their life encounters may be the result of Karma, accept it and try to move on - this is known as "meeting your Karma".
But the above should not be taken too literally to mean that someone who is born into wealth is being rewarded and someone who is born poor, blind or sickly is being punished. Sometimes it is all meant to teach you a lesson. It may be that you are poor and you think all rich people are wicked. You may be born rich to show you that is not so and to give you the chance to use money well. For example, I have a friend who has never tasted alcohol in his life. He said he had an uncle whose life was ruined by alcohol. Now, it is possible he was a drunk in his last incarnation and was sent there so he may learn early on in life.
My observation is that prayer changes nothing, except, sometimes, the person praying. God does not intervene. Religious people can afford to wicked to their fellow man because they claim to love God whom they can't see. If only they know that all God requires is that they love their fellow man.
This makes sense TO ME much more than the heaven taught by the Abrahamic faiths.

You are on the right path to self discovery (call it buddhahood for want of a better word), we have all been there. It takes a great leap to see the fallacies of the Abrahamic religions we had been forced to believe in since childhood. Keep on searching, don't relent, you will slowly get the full meaning and purpose of existence.

@deepsight
Great Posts. It will take some time to answer all the questions.
I will have to approach it question by question.

I do not believe that God is impersonal. I believe God has His agenda which he is pursuing on the earth but does so within the limits of His laws.

The issue is that God cannot subvert justice and remain God therefore He will not just "will away" human suffering.

The theory of reincarnation a la buddhism et cetera remains an unproven theory! It has not been substantiated in any empirical way.
The same goes for darwinism.

^^^ Reincarnation is a matter involving spirituality.

You do not generally get to prove spiritual things via physical methods.

I should like you to tell me in what empirical way the existence of "heaven" in which you believe, has been proved.

As per reincarnation in the bible, you may want to review the discussion here (though its a thread where i got yabbed quite alot) -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-385353.0.html

^^^ Reincarnation is a matter involving spirituality.

You do not generally get to prove spiritual things via physical methods.

I should like you to tell me in what empirical way the existence of "heaven" in which you believe, has been proved.

This is true in a way,
The existence of heaven can be proved logically not empirically. God's house = Heaven therefore if God exists and He has a house then heaven exists. I believe heaven is just another planet, maybe in another dimension,

Is there any form of logical explanation for reincarnation?

I firmly believe that the existence of God may be rationally and empirically proven and this has been my crusade on this Forum -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-315294.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-357796.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-328706.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-329370.0.html

But I positively deny that the idea that God has a "house" of any sort may be either logically or empirically proven.

Indeed God being absolutely transcendental and intangible cannot be said to be "housed" by anything of any sort - much less a "planet" - which is merely part of creation! - Where would God have "resided" prior to the existence of such a "planet."

God is not a tangible entity - and as such we cannot speak of any sort of "house" for God in any terms.

God is not a tangible entity - and as such we cannot speak of any sort of "house" for God in any terms.

Yes God is a spiritual being. He may not need a house but He can have a house where he puts beings that are not transcendent like him. For example, the earth is the home of humans in human form but when we die we move to another dimension (which we call the house of God).

You are right in saying that we probably shouldn't call it God's house but that's the best description we can give to it (heaven)

This actually destroys the logic I put forth earlier so a more correct version of the logic would be:
When we are alive we stay on the earth, when we die we go to another dimension = Heaven / Hell
This is a logical explanation for the existence of heaven, hell, heaven and hell or something in between heaven and Hell,

The logical explanation for the existence of a heaven as distinct from hell is that of justice. No amount of human suffering can really atone for SIN if SIN causes the corruption of both the sinner and the entire earth. Therefore, for justice to be maintained the sinner must suffer for eternity.
(P.S. the argument is not as complete or as fluid as I would like it to be)

God is not a tangible entity - and as such we cannot speak of any sort of "house" for God in any terms.

God is a Spirit but He may be able to assume a tangible form.

I have created a new topic for questions directed to me.
I think it's a more efficient way to answer questions.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-552049.0.html