i think it is time we clerify ourselves about the stand of the xtian being unbeliver or not,


are the xtian unbelievers?


only those with real knowledge about this should contribute plz, just watch the thread if u dont have any thing to say,


ur contribution should be strictly islamics,

use the qur'an, hadith and the dialogue of the scholars for explanation,


i will be back,

We have done this explanation before and will do it again with good elaboration


Are the christian unbelievers ?

5:72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers


It was even repeated

5:73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.






Does Allah forgive shirk (i.e Associating partner with God) ?


4:116. Verily! Allah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners in worship with Him, but He forgives whom he pleases sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, has indeed strayed far away.


Did jesus warn them of shirk ?

5:72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers

Only Allah deserve to be worshipped 2:163. And your Ilah (God) is One Ilah (God - Allah), La ilaha illa Huwa (there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He), the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful[/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][color=#990000][/color]

Allah even address them as unbelievers in jumlah with idolaters,

see Quran 2 :105. Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikun (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty.

are u quoting Qur'an on bible?

cos i dont understand one thing here

Is that meant to be a joke or what

One thing you should know is 'kufar plural of kafir means unbelievers or disbelievers in English'

unbelievers in WHAT? . . . what or who do Christians disbelieve?

Unbelievers in Allah and Muhammad

Allah is your Lord thats why.

Muhammad (AS) is His Messenger.

By the way, you live in the prophetic period of Muhammad (AS) and not any earlier messenger (AS)!

These are good reason for rational and sane people to belief in Allah and His Messenger (AS)!

olabowale:

Allah is your Lord thats why.

Muhammad (AS) is His Messenger.

By the way, you live in the prophetic period of Muhammad (AS) and not any earlier messenger (AS)!

These are good reason for rational and sane people to belief in Allah and His Messenger (AS)!

1. how is allah my lord? was he the same lord of the OT? why did he stop using annointing oil and priestly sacrifices?

2. why is mohammed's message different from that of the other prophets? why was the coming of mohammed not prophesied?

noetic15:

1. how is allah my lord? was he the same lord of the OT? why did he stop using annointing oil and priestly sacrifices?

Allah is your God and Lord Who created you and your forefather, Adam(AS). However, despite you're informed, you didn't accept it only because of your mindset. When you read through the history, the story of supreme God never change. Even the idolators recognise Him. Their paganism is only in the sense of intermediary. Look through african history, with their belief in God almighty. I think you need to reflect on this. Belief me, you 've been on this forum for a while and I belief you should have grasp some things from the Quran, how Allah describe himself. And when He instructed the people of the books that your lord is ALLAH and one, but Jesus is nothing but a messenger from HIM. Do not say GOD is three or Jesus mother part of GOD and so on.

Now what is anointing oil according to you, I don't see the usefulness of oil to my God. Rather for we human being either for medicinal purpose or to produce light. Even as I am writing this, a few minutes ago, I just drink from olive oil mixed with honey as medicinal purpose as prescribed by prophet Muhammad(SAW), so was it used in the history by prophets before him.

noetic15:

2. why is mohammed's message different from that of the other prophets? why was the coming of mohammed not prophesied?

Tell me what was the message of Jesus according to the bible, I mean the original jesus statement message to the children of isreal. Then, what was Moses message to his people as well. What was abraham message. Do you think of common message or different ones? What Quran says is that all came with the same major message that your LORD is ALLAH and only one, it HIM that they should worship. I think you get it?

@noetic
Here lies Muhammad prophecy in d Bible:Jesus said in
John 16:7-14"Nevertheless i tell you the truth;it is expedient for you that i go away:for if i go not away,the conforter will not come unto you;but if i depart,i will send him unto you.And when he is come,he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgement:of sin,because they believe not on me;of righteousness,because i go to my father and ye see me no more;of judgement because the prince of the world is judged.I have yet many things to say unto you,but you cannot bear them now.Howbeit when he,the spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear,(that) shall he speak;and he will show you things to come.He shall glorify me;for he shall receive of mine,and shall show it unto you.".
There are still many prophesies of Muhammad in the bible and the OT and d rest of d Books of God,but go and think abt the above one

littleb:

Allah is your God and Lord Who created you and your forefather, Adam(AS). However, despite you're informed, you didn't accept it only because of your mindset. When you read through the history, the story of supreme God never change. Even the idolators recognise Him. Their paganism is only in the sense of intermediary. Look through african history, with their belief in God almighty. I think you need to reflect on this. Belief me, you 've been on this forum for a while and I belief you should have grasp some things from the Quran, how Allah describe himself. And when He instructed the people of the books that your lord is ALLAH and one, but Jesus is nothing but a messenger from HIM. Do not say GOD is three or Jesus mother part of GOD and so on.

Now what is anointing oil according to you, I don't see the usefulness of oil to my God. Rather for we human being either for medicinal purpose or to produce light. Even as I am writing this, a few minutes ago, I just drink from olive oil mixed with honey as medicinal purpose as prescribed by prophet Muhammad(SAW), so was it used in the history by prophets before him.



Tell me what was the message of Jesus according to the bible, I mean the original jesus statement message to the children of isreal. Then, what was Moses message to his people as well. What was abraham message. Do you think of common message or different ones? What Quran says is that all came with the same major message that your LORD is ALLAH and only one, it HIM that they should worship. I think you get it?

did u answer any of my questions?#

ruhu:

@noetic
Here lies Muhammad prophecy in d Bible:Jesus said in
John 16:7-14"Nevertheless i tell you the truth;it is expedient for you that i go away:for if i go not away,the conforter will not come unto you;but if i depart,i will send him unto you.And when he is come,he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgement:of sin,because they believe not on me;of righteousness,because i go to my father and ye see me no more;of judgement because the prince of the world is judged.I have yet many things to say unto you,but you cannot bear them now.Howbeit when he,the spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear,(that) shall he speak;and he will show you things to come.He shall glorify me;for he shall receive of mine,and shall show it unto you.".
There are still many prophesies of Muhammad in the bible and the OT and d rest of d Books of God,but go and think abt the above one

is mohammed a spirit?

@neotic

I think your questions were answered. You can point out where I deviated or you understand not.

Muhammad wasn't a spirit, at least one can trace his grave, so other prophet were not spirit. There are ample evidence in your bible that holy spirit has been humans long before jesus. In order guide us, God has been sending human being as a prophet to guide us. First amongst them is Adam. I belief I can't make you understand unless you help yourself by reasoning about the holes in the bible, when it was read that the comforter will hear and speak. Which language does the spirit use to communicate and how do you communicate to hear your request? Some christians will respond it is still the same GOD and this is why they blend three entities together as one. Lo, you just only need to reflect more on what you read in the bible. It was also read in the bible that a book was given to who can't read, "Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."Isaiah 29 verse 12. We muslims say it is ref is no other than prophet Muhummad, christians due to thier mind-set,they rejected this truth, even they noticed the truth in his message. It is left to you, much have discussed here regarding confussion and misconception of christians, yet people like neotic will still rambling on the same corner. I pray Almighty God who owns your heart,sight and ear will open them for the truth to sink in your soul.

'indeed, they rejected the truth when it came to them, but there will come to them the news of the torment which they used to mock. Have they not seen how many generation before them God had destroyed whom He established on earth such as God have not establish you ?' Quran 6:5-6

littleb:

@neotic

I think your questions were answered. You can point out where I deviated or you understand not.

Muhammad wasn't a spirit, at least one can trace his grave, so other prophet were not spirit. There are ample evidence in your bible that holy spirit has been humans long before jesus. In order guide us, God has been sending human being as a prophet to guide us. First amongst them is Adam. I belief I can't make you understand unless you help yourself by reasoning about the holes in the bible, when it was read that the comforter will hear and speak. Which language does the spirit use to communicate and how do you communicate to hear your request? Some christians will respond it is still the same GOD and this is why they blend three entities together as one. Lo, you just only need to reflect more on what you read in the bible. It was also read in the bible that a book was given to who can't read, "Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."Isaiah 29 verse 12. We muslims say it is ref is no other than prophet Muhummad, christians due to thier mind-set,they rejected this truth, even they noticed the truth in his message. It is left to you, much have discussed here regarding confussion and misconception of christians, yet people like neotic will still rambling on the same corner. I pray Almighty God who owns your heart,sight and ear will open them for the truth to sink in your soul.

spirits dont die. . .so why did mohammed die?

Don't be ridiculous, Muhammad is a man and not spirit

Abuzola:

Don't be ridiculous, Muhammad is a man and not spirit

so whats all the rubbish above by ur fellow slaves about mohammed being in the bible?

You misinterpreted them, read it meticulously

@ All

Muhammd contradicted himself! Here christian will enter paradise, next they will not enter. Which one will I follow if I'm a Muslim? Oh hhhhhhh, our "prophet" is creating more confusion for us. Don't believe these verses until you have read them on www.quranexplorer.com

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69


Surprisingly, he forgot what he had said before, you know why, they were not written down.

Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72

Abuzola:

You misinterpreted them, read it meticulously

and what EXACTLY is ur meticulous deduction?

@dexmnd, it seems ur three gods is making a fool of you. How many times are we going to be repeating one explanation ? Huh, as a christian do you believe in muhammad as messenger of God ? If no, then u are out of the christian in that context verse, meaning u disbelieve. True christians do not worship jesus nor trinity because jesus himself worship God, see mathew 14:23. We are in the nation of prophet Muhammad now and that verse is abrogated because Muhammad is the seal of Prophets, the christian, sabian and jews of aforetime who truly believe with their respective prophets will enter paradise.

'and indeed many messengers were mocked before you (O Muhammad), but I granted them respite to those who disbelieve, and finally I punished them. Then how terrible was My punishment' Quran 13:32

True christians do not worship jesus nor trinity because jesus himself worship God,

Christians are the followers of christ, are my right?
Jesus claimed He was God :

John 10:30-33
30I and the Father are one. 31The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


It is on this basis that we worship Him. Imagine, a 30 something year old man being worshiped by much older people, yet he did not rebuke them because he knew he deserved worhip as God. Imagine, those old men and women, calling this young man Lord, yet he accepted it, not out of pride, but because God took upon him human flesh and lived among his people just as the prophets have foretold, that we might not need to sacrifice Lamb like muslims do every "Ileya". Do you know it is not everyone that can afford the ram? Thank God for calvary!

yes, kemferi means unbelievers

Thats just a word in context you keep misinterpreting, jesus never said 'worship me' neither did jesus said 'I am God'. A messenger is a representative of a king, does that make him a king ? Thats what jesus was conveying,

check this out

john 17:3
'and this eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and jesus christ whom thou hast sent'

6 'i have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world , thine they were, and thou gavest them to me and they have kept thy word.


7 'Now they know that every thing that thou hast given me is from thee'

John 10:30-33
30I and the Father are one. 31The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Gbam!!

@dexmond: « #18 on: Yesterday at 09:49:01 PM »

@ All
Muhammd contradicted himself! Here christian will enter paradise, next they will not enter. Which one will I follow if I'm a Muslim? Oh hhhhhhh, our "prophet" is creating more confusion for us. Don't believe these verses until you have read them on www.quranexplorer.com

Dont gloat until you know the meaning of this verse by tafsir. It is clear that the Jews, Christians and Sabaeans of today will never enter paradise. By Allah if any dies without being Muslim, Paradise is forbidden to that person!

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69

With my above basic premise in hand, you must know that when the verse 69 of Chapter 5 was revealed, people have assumed that those believers who followed Moses when he was the leader of the Children of Israel have been termed as Jews, wrongly, since Moses was a Muslim, and not a Jew. It is natural that his true followers, in essence were Muslims, though you wrongly label them Jews! It is this type of wrongly labelled Jews, who were Muslims that the verse referred to. Apply the same for the companions of Jesus, before Saul Paul bastardized the mission of Jesus son of Mary!

Now, let me break it down further, so that it applies to people of today: Those who used to be Jews, Sabaeans, and or Christians, and or others when they accept Islam, they will wear a new and pure label; Muslims. These people, according to the verse, is a prediction that they will be people of Paradise, as long as they leave disbelief and enter Islam! All the values of not having to fear anything, etc applies to them.


Now dexmond, will you die with a hellfire destination an assured thing for you, because of your perchant for lies, and you think a man will be responsible for your salvation?

THERE IS SO MUCH TO LEARN IF ONLY THE NEZANS,NOETICS,TPIAH,DAVIDYLAN AND OTHER SHAYATEENS WILL BE HUMBLE OR OBJECTIVE.WHICHEVER SUITS THEM

Shayateen ? Hehehehe.

fizzybaba:

THERE IS SO MUCH TO LEARN IF ONLY THE NEZANS,NOETICS,TPIAH,DAVIDYLAN AND OTHER SHAYATEENS WILL BE HUMBLE OR OBJECTIVE.WHICHEVER SUITS THEM

do you mean tpia.

no bring your aljonu djinn come this forum oh.

@Nezan: « #24 on: Yesterday at 12:15:55 PM »

John 10:30-33
30I and the Father are one. 31The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Gbam!!

I am wondering if you did not realise that the people of your lord, the jews also call themselves lords and sons of god? But I am also wondering if you did not realise that "blasphemy" is what they are going to stone a man for, because he called himself God? To have called himself son of god, a term that all the Jews foolishly label themselves by, thinking it is a honorable way to elevate themselves, is humanly naive, but they are now saying that the man Jesus of the Bible says be went to far to say he is now that God; thats the problem; a blasphemy deserving a bigger stoning, which they proudly boasted to hang him for!

Now, Gbam, is a response from me.

@noetic
The word "spirit"in the bible is synonymous with d word "prophet".This is a prove of that in 1 John 4:1-3:"Dear friends,do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,because many false prophets have gone out into the world.This is how you can recognise the spirit of God:Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God,this is the spirit of the antichrist,which you have heard is coming and even now is coming into the world."
So noetic, i think it should be clear 2 u now how Muhammad was prophesized in the bible.See also John 14:16,John 14:26,John 16:7-14.If u want more explanations, ask.

@noetic
The word "spirit"in the bible is synonymous with d word "prophet".This is a prove of that in 1 John 4:1-3:"Dear friends,do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,because many false prophets have gone out into the world.This is how you can recognise the spirit of God:Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God,this is the spirit of the antichrist,which you have heard is coming and even now is coming into the world."
So noetic, i think it should be clear 2 u now how Muhammad was prophesized in the bible.See also John 14:16,John 14:26,John 16:7-14.If u want more explanations, ask.