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Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by TV01(m): 10:23am On Oct 09, 2009
ttalks:

The highlighted above isn't exactly right. one isn't "saved" at that point of accepting Jesus; rather one begins the journey towards being saved.

I'm pretty much in accord with this point here.

- One is not saved merely because one believes in Jesus Christ or assents that He is Lord. Many believe and do nothing, or act - even the devil - contrary to that belief. Many believe and make it to organised church or some religious organisation, but still do not make that wholesale commitment to The Lord.

- I agree that salvation is a journey, not one of works or earning credit, but an experience - walk towards and with God that culminates in salvation.

Maybe the term "accepting Jesus" is somewhat misleading. Does "accepting" imply "believing" or something deeper?

One other point, I have every sense that salvation and the experience that leads to full salvation can and does happen here and now and doesn't have to wait until some end time culmination of all things. That is throughout the ages up until now, people have been and are being fully saved. That I believe is the return of Christ to those who eagerly await Him and entry to the Kingdom of Heaven.

God bless
TV
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by TV01(m): 11:04am On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:

So even if we have become a part of Gods kingdom,
we arent quite there yet, we still need to wok out our salvation.

Does believing or acceptance make you part of Gods Kingdom? My position is that entering the Kingdom and being saved simultaneously happen along with the fullness - return? - of Christ in one's life.

Gamine:

Another question is, What exactly does Jesus dying mean. why did he have to be 'sacrificed'
why him and not the goats, i need this to be really clear.

- To reconcile us to God
- To deliver us from sin
- That we may have abundant life
- To destroy the works of the Devil

The blood of the lesser cannot atone for the sin of the greater. Not sure how this informs your position, perhaps talk us through your thinking here some more.

What are we saved from? what are we saved for?? What is God after, Christs purpose and we to attain to. Salvation is not just delivery from, it is also translation to.

Once one can get a grasp of the point of being a Christian - as in a disciple of Christ, not a mere church goer or believer - then one can better, even if not necessarily perfectly appreciate the fullness of salvation.

God bless
TV
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Zikkyy(m): 12:36pm On Oct 09, 2009
TV01:

- One is not saved merely because one believes in Jesus Christ or assents that He is Lord. Many believe and do nothing, or act - even the devil - contrary to that belief. Many believe and make it to organised church or some religious organisation, but still do not make that wholesale commitment to The Lord.


I just need to clarify something here, say . . . a sick unbeliever on his death bed. If he believes and accept christ at this point, does he need to perform any other act/work after this to be saved? considering this might be his last act.

ttalks please i need your views here as well. Thanks
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by TV01(m): 12:48pm On Oct 09, 2009
Zikkyy:

I just need to clarify something here, say . . . a sick unbeliever on his death bed. If he believes and accept christ at this point, does he need to perform any other act/work after this to be saved? considering this might be his last act.


If that acceptance is more than mere mental assent or belief. The Lord knows. I could ask the same question thus; "What if a sound, sane and healthy 21 year old believes and accepts Christ, is s/he saved right there and then.

Does everyone on the path to salvation live to the end? And if they sleep whilst walking that path, then what? I have my thoughts, but the Lord knows.

Works do not in and of themselves save. Faith produces works and "Spirit-ledness" produces fruit.

God bless
TV
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 1:38pm On Oct 09, 2009
The terms could be confusing though.

What i am talking about is the point at which you accept Jesus,
im not talking about 'believing'. The Devil believes in God,
but has he truly repented (God sees the heart) has he accepted Jesus? No.

Let me share two things, i just learnt about
its still fresh in me mind, but i would like to see if others share the same views.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/hole/Faith/Propitiation.html

If you can read that, that is where the discussion i was having off the internet lay.

There is no working for salvation, once you believe in Jesus, and truely repent. .
you are saved. When you die, you wont be damned. sin will always take its toll on us
thats why we dont live very long on earth here anyway. but the hope is eternal life afterall.

If working for your salvation was the way to be 'saved', the illustration given by Zikky,
where one repents on his death bed and still gets damned, would be totally unreasonable
thats why as long as you are on this earth, you are a sinner, repented or not.

Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation.
They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment
There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins.

http://gracehead.com/index.php?p=388&more=1&page=2
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 4:25pm On Oct 09, 2009
Zikkyy:


I just need to clarify something here, say . . . a sick unbeliever on his death bed. If he believes and accept christ at this point, does he need to perform any other act/work after this to be saved? considering this might be his last act.

ttalks please i need your views here as well. Thanks



This is the way I view it:

It depends on the heart of the person. God looks at the heart.

If at the time of believing the person is truly sincere; has been truly convicted by the gospel, that is all that is necessary for him to be accepted since he has no more life to prove or profess his faith.

A living person still has life and would need to go through a lot to try his faith and to show his sincerity of purpose so his case is different from the scenario of the sick person.

1 Like

Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 4:42pm On Oct 09, 2009
If at the time of believing the person is truly sincere; has been truly convicted by the gospel, that is all that is necessary for him to be accepted since he has no more life to prove or profess his faith.

A living person still has life and would need to go through a lot to try his faith and to show his sincerity of purpose so his case is different from the scenario of the sick person.

undecided undecided really.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 5:09pm On Oct 09, 2009
Act 13:39
(39)  And by him all that believe are
justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:23-25
(23)  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24)  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This is the summary of all i am saying about faith in Christ:

The sacrifice of Christ has taken care of the sins of the past;those inherited through Adam,those which the law could not justify us from;those we were born with and those we committed before having faith in Christ.
Now, the blood of the sacrifice which did this is forever available and it is this which we apply to take care of the sins that still pop up in our Christian faith every now and then.
we do this by confessing and forsaking/repenting from the sins.
That is what 1 John 1:7-10 communicates.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 5:42pm On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:


There is no working out of salvation, once you believe in Jesus, and truely repent. .
you are saved. When you die, you wont be damned. sin will always take its toll on us
thats why we dont live very long on earth here anyway. but the hope is eternal life afterall.

shocked
Php 2:12
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation.
They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment
There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins.

Dear Gamine, it is not only those who reject Christ as their savior and refuse to believe in him that have no hope of salvation.
It also includes those who believed in him and later by their actions and way of life reject him(that is living a life of sin which completely rejects Christ's sacrifice).That is what Hebrews 10:26 - 27 is saying.
The "we" in verse 26 was referring to believers not unbelievers.

So, the conclusion is that :
It is possible for a person to believe in Christ but later get damned because he later rejected the faith by his lifestyle.

1 Like

Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 6:10pm On Oct 09, 2009
It is possible for a person to believe in Christ but later get damned because he later rejected the faith by his lifestyle.

What do you mean by 'rejected the faith by his lifestyle'
If he didnt denounce Christ from his heart <once gain God sees the heart>
who are you to judge his lifestyle, especially when we all received the gift equally and undeservedly


I really suggest you read those links i posted in your free time.
Then maybe you'd better understand where i am coming from.<said that a dozen times>

Php 2:12
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I am sorry if i confused you with terms, but the long and short of it is that,
There is no working 'for' salvation, i should have used 'for' <i'm going to change it>
but
Did you read the whole chapter at all? do you understand where He was coming from.
Paul was just a man, teaching on living the 'Christian' life.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 6:21pm On Oct 09, 2009
ttalks:

[color=#990000][b]

This is the summary of all i am saying about faith in Christ:

The sacrifice of Christ has taken care of the sins of the past;those inherited through Adam,those which the law could not justify us from;those we were born with and those we committed before having faith in Christ.
Now, the blood of the sacrifice which did this is forever available and it is this which we apply to take care of the sins that still pop up in our Christian faith every now and then.
we do this by confessing and forsaking/repenting from the sins.
That is what 1 John 1:7-10 communicates.



This is John 1:7-10

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

what you posted IS NOT what it communicates
i didnt see anything about past, present and future sin.

We are in 'sin'

If we say we havent sinned, we make Him a liar and Jesus is not in us.
So if we acknowledge we have sin, Jesus is true and stands in place of us.

Simple.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by CrudeOil2(m): 6:23pm On Oct 09, 2009
Saved by who, how, when, where? Please answers!!!
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Zikkyy(m): 6:31pm On Oct 09, 2009
ttalks:

This is the way I view it:
It depends on the heart of the person. God looks at the heart.
If at the time of believing the person is truly sincere; has been truly convicted by the gospel, that is all that is necessary for him to be accepted since he has no more life to prove or profess his faith.
A living person still has life and would need to go through a lot to try his faith and to show his sincerity of purpose so his case is different from the scenario of the sick person.


Thanks. I understand your point of view better now. I guess we are on the same frequency.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 6:38pm On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:

This is John 1:7-10

what you posted IS NOT what it communicates
i didnt see anything about past, present and future sin.

We are in 'sin'

If we say we havent sinned, we make Him a liar and Jesus is not in us.
So if we acknowledge we have sin, Jesus is true and stands in place of us.

Simple.



When do we do the highlighted above, Gamine?
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 6:42pm On Oct 09, 2009
Saved by who, how, when, where? Please answers!!!

ROTFLMAO!!

WHO? Saved by Jesus sacrifice,

HOW? Dying

WHEN? Many years ago

WHERE On the cross, cants say im sure of location, but it dont even matter.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 6:45pm On Oct 09, 2009
When do we do the highlighted above, Gamine?

Are you telling me, you have no sin?? undecided

You are 100% sure, nothing you have done has displeased God in some form?? undecided
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 6:53pm On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:

What do you mean by 'rejected the faith by his lifestyle'
If he didnt denounce Christ from his heart <once gain God sees the heart>
who are you to judge his lifestyle, especially when we all received the gift equally and undeservedly

One rejects the faith by his lifestyle; another shows proof of his faith by his lifestyle.
James 2:17-16 deals with this.

Remember, in 1 Timothy 5:8; it was what the person did/does; the action/the work that brought about the pronouncement of "denied the faith and is worse than an infidel".

The term "by their fruits u shall know them" deals with this.

Your works/lifestyle prove ur faith; whether u do have it or you don't.
Note: That's all works do; prove/show one's faith and not give one salvation.

Gamine:

Are you telling me, you have no sin?? undecided

You are 100% sure, nothing you have done has displeased God in some form?? undecided

Where did u get such an idea about me? shocked

I'm only asking you: "When do we do the acknowledgement of sin,according to that passage?"
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Zikkyy(m): 6:54pm On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:

I really suggest you read those links i posted in your free time.
Then maybe you'd better understand where i am coming from.<said that a dozen times>

I have gone through both links. Good write up no doubt but they dont say much about what happens to sins after believing and accepting christ. The sencond link was totally silent on the sins commited subsequent to the act of accepting Christ.

The illustration with the debtor even made it worse. What happens if the debtor incurs another debt? Will the creditor forgive him his debt because a third party has paid off the first debt? or will he be required to the liquidate the new debt all over again? That is the question. I think the illustration was all about the initial or original sin that was committed before the initial act of remorse and forgiveness.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 7:01pm On Oct 09, 2009
One rejects the faith by his lifestyle; another shows proof of his faith by his lifestyle.
James 2:17-16 deals with this.

Remember, in 1 Timothy 5:8; it was what the person did/does; the action/the work that brought about the pronouncement of "denied the faith and is worse than an infidel".

The term "by their fruits u shall know them" deals with this.

Your works/lifestyle prove your faith; whether u do have it or you don't.
Note: That's all works do; prove/show one's faith and not give one salvation.

I have replied this before.

Where did u get such an idea about me? Huh Shocked

I'm only asking you: "When do we do the acknowledgement of sin,according to that passage?
i dont think the scripture implies a certain time to acknowledge sin
where do you get that?? undecided
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by viaro: 7:02pm On Oct 09, 2009
Interesting discussion, may I join in?

I think some mis-communication is crossing between discussants. Salvation is viewed in various contexts instead of one. But the common understanding that seems to be discussed here is the one about receiving the 'gift' of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

The comes the question of the ages: can one lose their salvation?
Some say yes, others say no.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost put it in a formula ('OSAS' - [b]o[/b]nce [b]s[/b]aved [b]a[/b]lways [b]s[/b]aved) which they argue is unbiblical. Of course, this position (rejecting OSAS) has huge problems and is not a water-tight argument that stands Biblical scrutiny (IMO).

Many people believe in the OSAS doctrine; although because opposers have largely misrepresented this position, many people are not confident to uphold this view. However, the common denominator here is that salvation is not something we "earn" since it is a gift. Yet, it has its problems too.

I'd like to address some of the queries that Gamine proffered earlier on:

this is what im asking about.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and all,
believing in the things he did for us.
Does 'sin' have any hold on us?

Theoretically, 'sin' has no hold on the believer.
Experientially, 'sin' dwells in the believer - see Romans 7:17 and 20.

However, for the the Christian believer it is said that "sin shall not have dominion over you" - Romans 6:14. And for that reason, he/she is to live a victorious life in dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit.

It may be difficult to grasp, but yet simple. The reason why our experience shows our struggle with 'sin' is because we still live in our bodies that are subject to the same experiences as everyone else in a fallen creation. Indeed, the Bible states this plainly:

* first, we have at present what is described as "our vile body" (Php. 3:20-21)

* second, we hope for the redemption of our body (Romans 8:23)

Sin is sometimes personified while at other times is seen objectively as the actions we commit.

Do we have to atone for sins we still commit?

No, for we cannot even atone for any sin - past or present. It is Christ who does that, not we ourselves.

if i die as im committing adultery, will i still go to hell?

I think someone else has answered that question. But let me elaborate upon it.

A truly born again believer would not desire what is contrary to the new nature that he/she has received in Christ. But it is a known fact that some born again believers commit shameful sins (we see this in many worldviews as well). What happens then? Here's a direct answer to your question (or similar) -

In 1 Corinthians 5 we find a scenario where this was happening - someone was known to be living in fornication, such that even unbelievers were ashamed of what was involved (see verse 1). Christians ought not to ignore such issues or be proud about anything in this regard (verse 2). But was that believer losing his salvation? I don't read it so, especially when we read verse 5:

   'deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
    that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus'

If that person died, the body is destroyed - but what happens to the 'real' person - the 'spirit' of the person?

Again, in other types of sins commited by Christians, it may result in death - for the apostle John makes clear that there is a sin unto death and one that is not unto death. But in Corinthians where this question comes up, we read this:

  'For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep' (I Corinthians 11:30)

'Sleep' in context there is death - they die in the body. But do they lose their salvation? If so, how?
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by viaro: 7:11pm On Oct 09, 2009
What about the question of one who "rejects" the faith by his lifestyle?

For me, they didn't have the faith in the first place. How?

Let's remind ourselves that some who live contrary to the Gospel of Christ are variously described in Scripture:

* they are called 'false brethren' (Galatians 2:4)

* sometimes described as 'false prophets' (2 Peter 2:1-2)

* certain men who creep in unwares (Jude v. 4)

Jude is especially bold to state that such men live a lascivious lifestyle - and that is how they "deny the Lord and Saviour". Yes, they still say Christian things, love religious things, etc - but they have not truly received the saving faith of Christ.

Of course, I don't have all the answers, but just trying to help outline things according to the questions that arise.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 7:15pm On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:

I have replied this before.
i dont think the scripture implies a certain time to acknowledge sin
where do you get that?? undecided

Looking at who John was addressing would tell u of the time when this acknowledgement of sins takes place.
It is within the Christian life;within the life after having faith in Christ.
John was addressing believers, people who had earlier had faith in Christ; Christians, not people who were yet to be Christians.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by viaro: 7:16pm On Oct 09, 2009
May I also ask a few questions about losing one's salvation:

* at what point does one lose his or her salvation?

* is it possible for one to be saved again after having lost their salvation?

* if one can be saved again after losing salvation, what is the process involved?

Those for now. Thanks.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 7:20pm On Oct 09, 2009
viaro:

What about the question of one who "rejects" the faith by his lifestyle?

For me, they didn't have the faith in the first place. How?

Let's remind ourselves that some who live contrary to the Gospel of Christ are variously described in Scripture:

* they are called 'false brethren' (Galatians 2:4)

* sometimes described as 'false prophets' (2 Peter 2:1-2)

* certain men who creep in unwares (Jude v. 4)

Jude is especially bold to state that such men live a lascivious lifestyle - and that is how they "deny the Lord and Saviour". Yes, they still say Christian things, love religious things, etc - but they have not truly received the saving faith of Christ.

Of course, I don't have all the answers, but just trying to help outline things according to the questions that arise.

Which shows the point that i have tried to pass one way or another that claiming to believe in Christ/have faith in Christ alone is not a guarantee for salvation or a proof of salvation.
Your lifestyle or ur works would help determine the authenticity of such a faith.
That is what James 2:17-26 is saying.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by viaro: 7:22pm On Oct 09, 2009
ttalks:

Which shows the point that i have tried to pass one way or another that claiming to believe in Christ/have faith in Christ alone is not a guarantee for salvation or a proof of salvation.
Your lifestyle or your works would help determine the authenticity of such a faith.
That is what James 2:17-26 is saying.

Thank you for reminding me.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by ttalks(m): 7:27pm On Oct 09, 2009
viaro:

May I also ask a few questions about losing one's salvation:

* at what point does one lose his or her salvation?

* is it possible for one to be saved again after having lost their salvation?

* if one can be saved again after losing salvation, what is the process involved?

Those for now. Thanks.

if u check some of my posts on this thread, u'll notice that I tried to maintain that salvation/being saved is not something that has been achieved yet.
The journey to achieving it only begins with having faith in Christ.
So, the issue of losing one's salvation can't really be said to be since we do not have it yet.

we can only lose our way towards achieving it.

I say this in the context or understanding that Salvation is the end of our faith;the goal of our faith which is achieved when Christ comes and we are glorified.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 7:57pm On Oct 09, 2009
I dont know why you guys are bent on a past, present and future sin

i like what Viaro says,

No, for we cannot even atone for any sin - past or present. It is Christ who does that, not we ourselves.

Even though he goes ahead to say,


A truly born again believer would not desire what is contrary to the new nature that he/she has received in Christ. But it is a known fact that some born again believers commit shameful sins (we see this in many worldviews as well). What happens then? Here's a direct answer to your question (or similar)

Its not a matter of what you desire, Paul said, the things he would wants to do, he cant. .e.t.c i cant remember
You are in this flesh, you are prone to sin.

Still, im getting the vibe that people here Do NOT sin.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by viaro: 8:10pm On Oct 09, 2009
Gamine:

I dont know why you guys are bent on a past, present and future sin

Well, I would not like to hold on that as the central thing.

Its not a matter of what you desire, Paul said, the things he would wants to do, he cant. .e.t.c i cant remember

Perhaps you were pointing to Romans 7 (especially verses 14 - 16). No?

You are in this flesh, you are prone to sin.

Partly true. But someone might quickly raise the objection that those who are "in the flesh" cannot please God (Romans 8:8). Yet, I understand your context.

Another way to look at it would be that being "prone" to sin is not the position of the Christian. He/she is not 'prone' to sin; but as they yield to God, they find they are inclined to righteousness (if I may quote Romans 6:11-16).

Still, im getting the vibe that people here Do NOT sin.

People DO sin, even though we are not supposed to live that way. I might've have been getting similar ideas but was reserved so I don't risk misreading anyone.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Abuzola(m): 8:15pm On Oct 09, 2009
Why should i be save by one powerless god who did not even save himself from the hand of the jews, heya. Pure brainwash
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by viaro: 8:34pm On Oct 09, 2009
ttalks:

if u check some of my posts on this thread, u'll notice that I tried to maintain that salvation/being saved is not something that has been achieved yet.

While I appreciate many things you've discussed (quite lucid in several places), I might've have missed a few other points. Forgive me.

The journey to achieving it only begins with having faith in Christ.
So, the issue of losing one's salvation can't really be said to be since we do not have it yet.

That is looking at only one aspect.

The context in which we are 'being' saved appertains to many things; but there is also a sense of finality in salvation which sees God's work as complete and already done!

   * the future sense:

    'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls' - 1 Peter 1:9

    'kept by the power of God . . . unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time' - 1 Peter 5:9

    Christ shall 'appear the second time without sin unto salvation' - Heb. 9:28

  * the perfect sense:

    'according to his mercy he saved us' - Tit. 3:5

    God 'hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling' - 2 Tim. 1:9

     ' by grace are ye saved through faith' - Ephesians 2:8


  * the present continuous sense:

  'continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee'
   - 1 Tim. 4:16

   'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' - Php. 2:12

You see that these three aspects are not narrowed down to just one aspect. I see them as saying:

   * you are saved - now - if you truly believe

   * you will receive the end of your salvation

   * daily live a lifestyle of having being saved

God does both the first two on our behalf and for us; but the third is OUR own responsibility. We cannot do anything to "save" us on our own merit (Ephesians 2:8 - 'not of yourselves'); but as to our responsibilities and responses, we should work out our own salvation (Php. 2:12).

we can only lose our way towards achieving it.

Well, that makes me think that if someone loses his or her way towards "achieving" salvation, then they cannot be saved. I see it simply this way: God saves the lost - He comes to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10). If the lost tries to lose his way towards "achieving it", how does he yet arrive there? And if he does arrive there, won't that make such a person actually BOAST of his own works as the basis of being saved (because he "acheived" it)?

Just my thinking.

I say this in the context or understanding that Salvation is the end of our faith;the goal of our faith which is achieved when Christ comes and we are glorified.

I noted that; but also that it is only one aspect and not the whole - as outlined above.
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Abuzola(m): 8:38pm On Oct 09, 2009
A god who died in pieces, crying , complaining mathew 27:46 , oops
Re: Once Saved, Saved Forever? by Gamine(f): 8:38pm On Oct 09, 2009
@viaro
Exactly, Paul explains it all in Romans 7

Romans 8:8, 'In the flesh' doesnt mean physical flesh for goodness sake

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