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Hell-bound Christians And Heaven-bound Unbelievers / If U Could Take Just One Thing To Heaven, What Would It Be? / Pope Francis To Atheists: You Dont Have To Believe In God To Go To Heaven (2) (3) (4)
|Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 2:01pm On Oct 19, 2009|
There has been several unsuccessful attempts by atheists, deists and "Christians" to assert that those who dont acknowledge the salvation of Jesus Christ as evidenced on the cross, will still make it to Jesus heaven. . . . . if they are good/full of love.
They also claimed that this is deducible from the teachings of Jesus Himself, . . . I am yet to be convinced. that explains why I have encouraged them to open a new thread to educate our collective ignorance.
This thread now invites: kunleOshob, PastorAIO and DeepSight. . . . .to tell us how it is possible to disbelieve/reject the salvation of Jesus and still make it to Jesus heaven.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 2:11pm On Oct 19, 2009|
if i do re-call i have not made any categorical statement on that submission as i do not claim to know it all and i am still learning, however what i did was to show you biblical evidence [ which you are yet to refute or explain] that suggests other wise. I would suggestyou go and answer the question posed to you on the previous thread instead of running away and now trying to put us on the spot. you should justify your assertions before askng me to 'prove' my objections to it. I haven't made personal statements yet, just biblical submissions and as you claim to believe in the in errancy of the bible then you must accept the submissions or throw better light on it if it was being quoted out of context or there is another understanding which we are missing in the scriptures quoted.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 2:15pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Better still it would be better you start this thread with quoting the basis for your beliefs from scripture so we can annalyze it together and contrast it with other scriptures that seem to be saying something different from what you believe.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by huxley(m): 2:20pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Where did Jesus say that ONLY those that believed in him will make it to heaven? Did Jesus really say this, or are you mis-reading Jesus's words?
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by JeSoul(f): 3:05pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Kunle & Noetic,
I think John 3:16-18 would be a great launching point:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
But this holds true for only a certain group of people who got the chance to hear, and more importantly understand the gospel enough to either accept or reject it.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 3:28pm On Oct 19, 2009|
DeepSight why do you keep behaving like this . . . . The bible is VERY CLEAR Jesus is the ONLY way to god according to its teachings period. . . .Any body that says otherwise is lying period. . . .I find it funny because you claim not to believe in christianity but you want to go to their heaven. . . . .I laugh in hausa. . . . . . . . Since you believe in the christian heaven and want to be a part of it why not just convert to christianity because according to the christian hypothesis only those that believe in their stories will go there. . . .
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by jagunlabi(m): 3:37pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Mazi,deepsight is not even in this thread yet.I guess you meant noetic.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 3:42pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Deepsight believe people that do not believe in the christian stories will go to the christian heaven when the bible says otherwise. . . .
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by jagunlabi(m): 3:46pm On Oct 19, 2009|
LOL! @ christian heaven.If heaven is going to be divided into various sectors based on all the religions and the thousands of subsections within these religions,then the afterlife is going to be damn chaotic and confusing for all concerned,with nobody knowing where they belong.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 3:55pm On Oct 19, 2009|
my beliefs has been called to question and I have proffered explanation on several occasions to analyze my beliefs. whether u subscribe to them is irrelevant.
This thread calls to question the basis of ur beliefs. so tell us. . .how does one get to heaven? . . . do u have to believe in the death and resurrection/salvation of Jesus? or does one just have to be a good guy who loves his neighbor to get to heaven? what biblical injunction supports this assertion? what exactly is the purpose of the death of Jesus?
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 3:56pm On Oct 19, 2009|
why dont you come up and post their claims so we could have a better understanding and direction, because i dont think KunleOshod would say a thing like that , becos he is my brother, unless he drank that 'tombo' i warned him not to
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 3:57pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Dey there. . . . Me I will like the islamic version of heaven because of the heavenly virgins and the rivers of wine. . . .
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 4:08pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Okay, so what about the certain group of people who's got the chance to hear, and importantly did not understand the gospel enough to either accept or reject it.?
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 4:09pm On Oct 19, 2009|
JeSoul:I am quite aware of the above passage and i never discounted it, what i was just trying to make Noetic see were other scriptures that said something that seemed contrary and i asked him to explain it if he truly understood what he believed in, up till now he has not been able to offer any explaination. He has chosen to remain in the dogmatic box his church has put him in instead of exploring other biblical truths on the issue. I don't claim to know it all, so i am open to knowledge, but i am not open to accept something just becos that is the aspect of the bible my pastor would rather preach to me when i see cntradicting evidence i would insist on clarification.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 4:12pm On Oct 19, 2009|
where was it that you were trying to make me see something? i dont even know the origin of the discussion you had with noetic and feel so lost and yet you are saying you were trying to explain something to me. hmmmm. . . Kunle are you ok?
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 4:13pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Besides belief in Jesus could also be interpreted to mean belief in his gospel which was essentially Love to God and Love to fellow men whcu can be practicalized by living a good life. As you may be unaware there are a good number of translation errors in the bible which have vastly affected doctrine today.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by JeSoul(f): 4:17pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Kunle, no probs brother, I am just keen on seeing you and Noetic debate, hence was providing some stimulus
Tonye-t:I don't want to sidetrack Noetic's thread so I won't go into this. I know you're slighted cos I did not jump on your tithe bandwagon - the liberal christian that I am. But simply put, you cannot go to China and preach in English, or to a remote village in the Amazon and speak yoruba. They may certainly be hearing you, but most definitely ain't understanding jack.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 4:20pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Tonye-t:I have amended the post so stop ranting
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 4:34pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Believe me my lovely sister, my tithing and its wagon has got nothing to do with my question, why do folks jitter each time i write or ask just but a simple question, or could it be becos peeps just post with rethinking? hmmmm, well i dont know
[li]The topic when paraphrased: Did Jesus teach that whoever does not accept his teachings will still make heaven by just showing love to one another?[/li]
[li]You came in with this when paraphrased: that whoever does not believe in Jesus stands condemned, but only for a group of folks who's got the chance to hear and understand but would either accept or reject it[/li]
[li]And i asked still paraphrased: That Jesoul, if you're saying that that only those who hear and understand but reject it are they that will be condemned, so what then happens to those [U]WHO HEAR AND DOES NOT UNDERSTAND[/u][/li]
i wont spot your error i will leave you to ponder keenly and come uo with a CORRECTION. Sis how are you today?
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 4:35pm On Oct 19, 2009|
ok so you truly took that tombo i warned you not to, no wonder,am glad you back to ya senses
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mnwankwo(m): 4:38pm On Oct 19, 2009|
My view is that the personal recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God is the highest recognition that can be granted to a human spirit. Such a recognition does not come about by hearing or reading about Jesus although hearing or reading about it can serve as spiritual trigger enabling such a blessed one on a journey that will culminate in the recognition of Jesus as the son of God. Genuine love does not just came from anywhere rather genuine love is one of the emanations or rather radiations coming form Jesus, who in my own recognition is the living personification of Divine Love. This love which comes from Jesus is available to all human beings and all creatures who have the yearning for the Truth. Thus the spiritual desire to recognise the Truth and serve God automatically opens ones spirit to the vibrations of love coming from Jesus. As a human being keep absorbing and using this love, he is getting closer and closer to the source of this Love (Jesus) until finally either here on earth or hereafter after in worlds beyound, the personal recognition of HIM (Jesus Christ) in whose love he or she has been experiencing will come to such a one. For one who has absorbed the emanations of genuine Love from Jesus, love for God, his fellow mwn and all creatures is then his nature. Thus such a one practices genuine love withouth effort for the incomprehesible power of love that emanates from Jesus carries him onward just like a swimmer that swims in sync with the ocean current. If you tune into the frequency of genuine love, you are tuned in to Jesus even if at the initial and intermediate stages of spiritual development, such a one may only be aware of the love that he is experiencing but not the source of the love. If he stay tuned without switching off, he or she will one day come to the recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God. No man will ever enter heaven without this recognition. Imagine that the recognition of Jesus Christ is at the summit of a mountain. Individuals who have more or less absorbed the love of God but have not come to the personal recognition of this source of genuine love have left the bottom of the mountain and are on their way to the top of the mountain and will finally reach the summit if they keep absorbing and using the power of God. At the summit, they will find the crown of their longing, the recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God.
Meanwhile, there is a tree at the foot of the mountain and many instead of climbing the mountain decided to climp the tree and from the top of the tree, they smile at those who slowly but surely are climbing the mountain. They claim that from the top of the tree that they have a glimpse of the summit of the mountain. But unkonwn to them, the crown at the top of the mountain can only be bestowed on those who climbed the mountain and not to millions who want a short cut by climbing the tree. The gulf betwwen the tree and the mountain cannot be crossed and those who made attempt fall to the ground breaking their legs and even there neck. As he groans in agony from the fall, some people who he laughed at when he was on top of the tree have already reached the mountain and have been bestowed with the crown.
If Mahatma Ghandi or Dala Lama or any person form any culture, religion or tradition are practicing genuine love, they are like those who are climbing the mountain and their souls will one day recognise Jesus Christ as the son of God. Millions who have heard or read about Jesus but are not living according to the love that emanates from Jesus Christ are the people on top of the tree at the foot of the mountain. There is still time for them to come down from their precarious perch to the foot of the mountain and begin to climb the mountain. Very soon the tree at the foot of the mountain will collapse and they will break their legs and necks making a subsequent climbing of the mountain impossible. Thus the crown which they erroneously imagined that it is their birth right will be denied them.
Thus there can be no genuine love without Jesus Christ and no Jesus Christ without genuine love. The spiritual journey of all human beings does not just consit of one earthlife. This present earthlife is just a very small snapshort of ones spiritual history. I hope that someday, some of the discussants may be blessed with the opportunity to see the soul of Mahatma Ghandi and they should ask him who Jesus is. The answer will come as a rude shock.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by JeSoul(f): 4:43pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Tonye-t:You give yourself way too much unmerited credit, modesty certainly did not set up room in your house.
I repeat, I will not go into it because this is Noetic's thread purposed for debate with Kunle and DeepSight, and I don't want to side track it.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by JeSoul(f): 4:45pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Kunle and Deepsight, answer Noetic now I already have my popcorn ready . . .
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 4:59pm On Oct 19, 2009|
^^^ I'm coming, going to get some hot tea for this. . .
Will be back. . .
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 5:00pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Ok, i will only answer you with the scriptures,
1 Cor 15:10-11
1 Cor 8:2
Sister, fear not, we are not side-tracking this topic, we are doing the reverse, you said something and yet you feel TOO
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by JeSoul(f): 5:05pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Deep Sight:Great. Kunle where are you?
Tonye, I repeat for the 3rd and last time, this thread is not for you or I unless Noetic changes the rules.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Gentleme1: 5:16pm On Oct 19, 2009|
This topic lacks any reason to contribute, how can i contribute when i do not know how it all began
something dey tell me say u dey vex, na question dem ask you from this topic na, abi im no ask am well or una quarrel for house, me too wan learn but make una easy
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 5:20pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Jesoul, I ask for the 3rd time and the last time, explain what you meant, wow, today seem to be revealing another side of your personality, this cannot be true!
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by JeSoul(f): 5:31pm On Oct 19, 2009|
TonyeT = Gentle me = jekyll and Hyde = ludicrous. It has long been established that you are infact the same person and conjuring up your other personality in a sad attempt to garner false support and side track this thread is totally unneccesary.
The rest of the thread would do well as I will to henceforth ignore subsequent posts from this schizophrenic impostor.
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by bawomolo(m): 5:51pm On Oct 19, 2009|
what about the recognition of ifa, buddha or muhammed?
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 5:53pm On Oct 19, 2009|
For now i would not give personal opinions or comments rather i would implore Noetic to explain these scriptures to me. he evaded them on a previous thread so i would repeat them here. His explaination of these scriptures would then elicit further comments from me.
The Final Judgment
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.
The Final Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
|Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 6:01pm On Oct 19, 2009|
Thank you for bringing this subject up again Noetic. I am deply interested in it, as it gives me great concern to see the shocking perspective of many dogmatists (e.g: Davidylan) on this matter.
I think a reasonable platform for the commencement of the discussion is to address the strange term employed by Noetic - "Jesus Heaven".
What exactly does this mean? I can extrapolate a number of things from that bizzare phrase, primarily the notion that Mr. Jesus from Nazareth has a special and different "Heaven" from any other "heavens" that might exist.
Let's clear this up. For the purpose of marching ahead without distraction, i am going to make an exception from my usual empirical style. I will go ahead and give a picture of existence as i see it, and at this initial stage i am not going to seek to prove that picture to be right. I believe however, that a calm an un-biased viewer should be able to key-in to that picture.
Here we are. We find ourselves on Earth. In a material world, surrounded by Material things. We look up, and see the vastness of the heavens (material universe; stars) and we are humbled with wonder.
From the moment we are old enough to think, we begin to ask those ancient questions: "What are we, and what are we doing here. . . what is the purpose of all this. . ."
From the most ancient civilizations till date, man has come to recognise that although he lives in a material world, the things that matter most to him are entirely immaterial. To give the prime example - Love.
You can't touch it, you can barely see it, but you feel it in your heart. You know it is there.
Accordingly, men recognised the spiritual - the ancient pang within them for something that transcends this sphere. I should state at this point that the enigma of the spectre of death is crucial in the development of man's thinking in this regard.
If we accept the existence of the spiritual, then it is but a short leap from there, to the natural conclusion of most of humanity - namely that there is a core within man, that survives material decomposition at death. We know this, because we have felt it in our bossoms, at moments when we felt love, or a communal or patriotic spirit. . . Also the fact of visions during sleep (dreams) has always hinted at a deeper sub-conscious, which in many cases actually performs feats such as seeing the future. . . this again assures man that the spiritual is real.
Thus the question should properly read: what happens at death? What happens when the MATERIAL PART is set aside at the moment of death?
Man senses the existence of many possible realms of existence. Indeed, without the need for proof, he has actually experienced such realms within his inner life right here on this earth, in one faint form or the other.
In simple terms, the spirit is a spark of light emanating from the light of the Divine Oneness - God.
It has properties like a magnet. It can draw things to it, or repel things from it.
This simple secret is conveyed in all the ancient writings, and many people do not undertand the basis thereof.
"Whatever a man sows, the same shall he reap" - The words of Jesus. Here he was conveying the eternal truth that magnetic vibrations sent out by the human spirit will always return to it. It is the law of attraction of homogenuous species. It is a universal law, and the orientals have always known it, through their Karma-based religions.
Thus it is manifestly clear that, rearding the question of what happens at death, the human spirit will be naturally and magnetically attracted to that realm of existence which corresponds with its inner state.
A pure spirit will gravitate towards a pure realm. A dark spirit, towards a dark realm.
God is the cynosure of Divinity, and thus of purity. Thus the realms closest to HIM are the pure realms.
Those realms are what i understand by the word "Heaven".
As i have explained above, gravitation to those realms will only depend on the inner state of each human spirit. The inner state is a function of pure or dark thoughts, actions or volitions.
This is the same reaosn it is stated in Acts 10: 35 that "God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him".
Again, The Revelation of John the beloved, is replete with statements rearding judgment according to the works of each spirit.
Thus although Faith is good, each spirit must strive towards purity. Once the volition is right, the grace of God will help such a spirit attain the luminous heights of "paradise".
It can never be asserted with any degree of objectivity, that God in his perfection, would provide different criteria for salvation at different times, or to different peoples. And believing that each person must personally know Jesus of Nazareth is entirely absurd given that millions died without knowing of him already. Also millions more will die having heard of him, but entirely unable to believe anything about him on account of their different cultural backgrounds. God in HIS perfection has only ever required one thing of men, and that is LOVE.
Again note that when asked about salvation, Jesus himself stated that if a Man would love God and love his fellow man, all the law would be complete therein.
I verily believe that his commandments to believe in him, thus referred to obeying his commandment of Love, and nothing more. I can state this because he himself described what it entails to believe in him. HE said - "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." Thus a Mahatma Ghandi (a hindu)who goes through life spreading love and peace and brotherhood, already has "Christ" in him, much more than any person who proclaims belief in Christ, without those acts of love.
I also hope that i have been able to paint a composite picture of existence on Earth, transition to the luminous realms (heaven/ paradise) and the reasons therefore. In this, there is much scripture to support what i have written, aside from the few i quoted above.
I am going to use the life of Mahatma Ghandi as a study for this discussion.
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