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Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Tonyet1(m): 6:13pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
@ Jesoul, Are all dis false accusations and insults really necessary? |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by ttalks(m): 6:18pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
KunleOshob: Now this has to be looked at alongside this: 1Co 3:13-15 (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Anybody getting the drift of verse 15? |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 6:25pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
Deep Sight:It is my suspicion that the above submission is one of the deeper truths in the teachings of christ obscured by the the church over the centuries due to dogmatism and personal agenda of church leaders. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 6:49pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
KunleOshob: This thread is strictly about ur beliefs. my beliefs have been questioned and I have answered them here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-336988.0.html You had repeatedly antagonised my belief, thereby raising the assumption that u disagree with me, but u have not been courageous enough to come up with ur beliefs. I would ask u one last time. . . . . . Do u think that those who do not accept the salvation of Jesus as depicted on the cross of calvary would make it to heaven? YES or NO . , and state ur reasons. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 7:00pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
My brother, i am not a dogmatic christian the truth is that there are perceived contradictions in the scripture that is supposed to be "inerrant" as a seeker of the truth i would like to keep an open mind and not just stick to any particular belief becos it is the generally accepted belief. i am a berean christian as such i seek to verify all truths. Forums like this are a good opportunity to learn diverse opinions on topics and as such form an informed opinion. However the way my mind is working given the perceived contradictions is either of two things: [1] Translation errors [2] Deliberate stretching of the truth by biblical authors due to their over zealousness in the preaching of the gospel. This stretching of the truth constantly happens in our churches today for various reasons. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 7:04pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
My brother, i am not a dogmatic christian the truth is that there are perceived contradictions in the scripture that is supposed to be "inerrant" as a seeker of the truth i would like to keep an open mind and not just stick to any particular belief becos it is the generally accepted belief. i am a berean christian as such i seek to verify all truths. Forums like this are a good opportunity to learn diverse opinions on topics and as such form an informed opinion. However the way my mind is working given the perceived contradictions is either of two things: [1] Translation errors [2] Deliberate stretching of the truth by biblical authors due to their over zealousness in the preaching of the gospel. This stretching of the truth constantly happens in our churches today for various reasons. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 7:09pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
m_nwankwo: 1. The above might sound reasonable but it CANNOT be reconciled with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The sonship of Jesus (if believed by anyone) should be held side by side with His salvation on the cross. They CANNOT be separated. 2. I understand from your post on other threads that u have continued to mistake the xtian love for the common love as seen in other religion and the world outside Christ. The love that Christ preached is centred around God. The God subject in this case is pertinent to the divinity of Jesus. The core message of Jesus is the death on the cross, salvation, sonship, resurrection and promise of eternity. The deduction is this. . . . . a. Jesus stated clearly that the love of God and one's neighbour are the greatest commandment. The love of God is simply having no other god/deity before/beside God. b. Jesus also asserted that He is God. He came to offer His salvation from eternal damnation on the cross of calvary. c. Jesus also stated that those who believe in him/his message are saved from eternal damnation. d. Those who accept the Lordship and salvation of Jesus are led by the spirit to live the God-like life of LOVE. Now let us put the above in the same light as your analyses: # The genuine love like u stated is completely different from the love Jesus taught. The love of Christ is centred around Christ. It involves accepting the salvation of Jesus Christ, being led by his spirit and living his life of love. # To claim to love God. . .without recognising Jesus as that God. . .is as good as loving a false god like allah. # Ghandi or anyone CANNOT claim to love God without knowing God. # many (pastor AIO, kunleOshob and Deepsight) have assumed that Christ's gospel was simply a gospel of love outside of the WORSHIP of God. This is FALSE. I will assert this using the "Good samaritan parable" of Jesus found in Luke 10: 30-37 In that parable 3 men saw a wounded man on the road. one was a priest, the other a levite and the third a samaritan. why did the priest and levite not stop? did they move on out of hate or lack of compassion? was their "inaction" a sin to God? FYI: The priest and levite did NOT stop simply because by offering help to the wounded man. . they would have touched blood. by touching blood, the priest and levite would become unclean. by becoming unclean they would both be excommunicated and unable to perform their functions in the synagouge. If the priest ever enters the holiest of the holiest after helping the wounded man. . .he would have died and be brought out dead. So why did they both not stop?. . . . . they both did not stop simply because they wanted to be holy, they wanted to please God. If u read verse 27: Jesus was clear. . . that the very first thing is to LOVE God before loving your neighbour. u CANNOT love buddha or allah and then love your neighbour. that love is UNACCEPTABLE to God (Jesus). Submissively . . . . .the route to the acceptance of anyone's sacrifice of LOVE is the acknowledgement of the death and resurrection of Jesus. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 7:26pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
noetic15: I will give you $1 Million of my own money if you can point out a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself stated that he was God. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 7:28pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
Deep Sight: open a new thread. . . . I will gladly educate u there. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 7:31pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
noetic15: Accordingly Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha as well as all the apostles who wrote that Jesus was inferior to the Father . . . All do not love God! Great, i am getting used to you and enjoying your delightful lines of reasoning! |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 7:36pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
@Deep Sight I want to know exactly why you choose the Jewish/Christian god as evidence for your nameless god. . . . |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 7:38pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
mazaje: Please i have never done this. . . |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 7:43pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
noetic15: No need to duplicate threads - there is already one in existence, and only four posts so far, so we can hijack the thread. . . https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-338352.0.html |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 7:50pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
Here's the Poster-Boy for my argument. . . my hero, Mahatma Ghandi. . . Please digest this before we proceed further, and try to understand the enormity of the suggestion that a braggart like Davidlylan who insults everybody at the slightest criticism will make it to "Jesus' heaven" before this great guy. . . Mahatma Gandhi Hinduism at its best Mohandas Gandhi, (1869 – 1948) was a major political and spiritual leader of India and its independence movment. He was a pioneer of non-violent, civil disobedience, a tactic and philosophy that figured in many of the human rights movements of the 20th century. Gandhi was commonly known as Mahatma Gandhi, a title derived from the Sanskrit for "Great Soul." In some respects, Gandhi not only represents the best elements of Hinduism, he also was interested in the reform of this and other world religions, which he acknowledged, sometimes are applied and interpreted in ways that keep the poor and oppressed peoples of the planet in a permanent state of powerlessness. Gandhi first employed his ideas of civil disobedience in the Indian struggle for civil rights in South Africa. Upon his return to India, he helped lead poor farmers and labourers to protest oppressive taxation and widespread discrimination. Leading the Indian National Congress, Gandhi worked for the alleviation of poverty, the liberation of women, and an end to the caste system. Gandhi remained committed to non-violence even in the most extreme situations. He was a student of Hindu philosophy and lived simply, organizing an ashram that was self-sufficient in its needs. He made his own clothes and lived on a simple vegetarian diet. He used rigorous fasts for self-purification as well as a means of protest. One of his foremost concerns was improving that status of India's lower classes, drawing the poor and the marginalized into the freedom struggle. Gandhi's teachings have inspired civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in the US and Nelson Mandela in South Africa. Famous Gandhi quotations: Religion - a Matter of the Heart: "True religion is not a narrow dogma. It is not external observance. It is faith in God and living in the presence of God. It means faith in a future life, in truth and Ahimsa…. Religion is a matter of the heart. No physical inconvenience can warrant abandonment of one's own religion." Hinduism: "I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth; I believe in the varnashrama dharma in a sense, in my opinion strictly Vedic but not in its presently popular crude sense; I believe in the protection of cow … I do not disbelieve in murti puja." (Young India: June 10, 1921) The Gita: "Hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being … When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and when I see not one ray of light on the horizon, I turn to the Bhagavad Gita, and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. My life has been full of tragedies and if they have not left any visible and indelible effect on me, I owe it to the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita." (Young India: June 8, 1925) Seeking God: "I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it. The Future of Religions: No religion which is narrow and which cannot satisfy the test of reason, will survive the coming reconstruction of society in which the values will have changed and character, not possession of wealth, title or birth will be the test of merit. Faith in God: "Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of the ocean." God is Strength: "Who am I? I have no strength save what God gives me. I have no authority over my countrymen save the pure moral. If He holds me to be a pure instrument for the spread of non-violence in place of the awful violence now ruling the earth, He will give me the strength and show me the way. My greatest weapon is mute prayer. The cause of peace is therefore, in God's good hands." Christ: "I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable. Metaphorically we are all sons of God, but for each of us there may be different sons of God in a special sense. Thus for me Chaitanya may be the only begotten son of God … God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus." (Harijan: June 3, 1937) Conversion: "I believe that there is no such thing as conversion from one faith to another in the accepted sense of the word. It is a highly personal matter for the individual and his God. I may not have any design upon my neighbour as to his faith, which I must honour even as I honour my own. Having reverently studied the scriptures of the world I could no more think of asking a Christian or a Musalman, or a Parsi or a Jew to change his faith than I would think of changing my own." (Harijan: September 9, 1935) All Religions are True: "I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian." (Young India: January 19, 1928) [/color] |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 9:32pm On Oct 19, 2009 |
KunleOshob: Let me personalise it. A. Do u (kunle) believe that Jesus died and rose? B. Do u (kunle) believe that (A) is the basis and centre of Jesus mission on earth? C. Do u (kunle) believe that without believing in event (A), one can make heaven? D. Do u (kunle) believe in the salvation of Jesus? |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mnwankwo(m): 12:35am On Oct 20, 2009 |
noetic15: Hi Noetic 15. Thanks for your response to my post. Below is a brief response to some of the issues you raised: 1. What I said may not be reconciled with your own view of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is. I have not stated that my posts are in sync with your view of the gospel of Jesus Christ. On the contrary my posts show that the gospel of Jesus Christ as I know it is different from yours. The mission of Jesus, the son of God lies in bringing the Truth, the will of God the Father to humankind. Humankind rejected Jesus and the word of God that he brought and sealed their enmity by murdering his physical body. I do not believe that the Almighty God require the blood of his son to save his creatures. Jesus was killed because humanity opposed the will of God and became willing tools in the hand of the darkness. Jesus did not come to die but to bring the eternal Truth to humankind. His death is a dastardly murder, a sacrilege committed against God. Salvation does not lie in the death of Jesus but on the word of Truth that Jesus brought. How can blood shed by murder bring humankind closer to God? Jesus is divine but his physical body is just like the body of any other man. How then can a physical blood bring spiritual redemption and salvation? Is there physical flesh and blood in heaven? I am certain that the blood of Jesus did not atone for any of our guilt but rather burdened us with a sacrilege which many can only recognize when they drop this physical body. Jesus was murdered because the Truth of God which he brought became a danger to priests and their religion. They thus conspired to eliminate the him. After committing this heinous crime, they declared that it is better that one man should die for the sins of others, and that became the foundation for the believe in sacrificial death of Jesus, the son of God. Jesus did not sin and it is not possible for him to directly take on the sins of others. He can only give them the word of God as well as mediate the power to those who are willing to live according to the word of God. I have in several threads given detailed explanations on what I am convinced is the mission and work of the redeemer, Jesus-the son of God. I will not repeat them here. 2. Genuine love is the same love that Jesus preached and lived. I clearly stated in my first post that this genuine love emanates from Jesus. I equally stated that the recognition of Jesus as the son of God is among the highest recognition permitted a creature and this recognition will come to anyone who lives according to genuine love. Spiritual evolution is in steps just like our earthly schools. A crude analogy may suffice. Imagine a person who has a deep longing to become a Professor of Molecular Biology. As a primary school kid he does not know what molecular biology or professor is all about but is very much fascinated by animals, insects and numbers. While other kids are playing pranks, he is busy trying to find out why a planted seed grows, why their are patterns on butterfly wings etc. This fascination with nature and how it works in reciprocity programs his brain to understand biological structures. In his first biology class in high school, he was so fascinated as he piped through a section of a living cell in a light microscope. He was so overwhelmed by this experience that he does not want to let go off the microscope until the instructor forcibly removed him from pipping into the magic class. It was not surprising that in high school, he graduated with top grades in mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. At this point he is beginning to have a faint idea of what molecular biology is but lacks understanding of what it means to be a Professor. But unknown to him, his fascination with nature and biology have sown the seed that will germinate and in 25 years time will ripen as a professor of Molecular Biology. A superficial observer will not be able to see the professor in the kid when he was in high school, undergrad or even in his graduate school. But a deeper look will show that the seed was sown as the child gallivanted about trying to fathom how a maggot turns to a housefly. Meanwhile another kid have no interest in biology or nature but is the son of a professor of molecular biology. Because he regularly hears about DNA, sequencing, cloning, PCR etc from his dad, he soon imagines that he is a molecular biologist. But you do not become a molecular biologist by being the son of one but you become one by acquiring the requisite skills and training. What takes a decade or more post first degree with respect to this crude analogy may take few earthly years to millions of earthly years for the spiritual recognition of Jesus as the redeemer and son of God. If you sow yam, you reap yam and it does not matter if you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, an Agnostic, a deist etc. The obedience to the will of God lies in the sowing of the yam and not on the toga of religion. Love is love whether from a christian or a buddhist. Lies are lies whether it is from an agnostic or deist. The eternal law of God has intrinsically made yam to be yam. Thus if you want to rip corn, then sow corn but you will be wasting your time if you want corn and sow yam. You can gather all the prayer warriors on earth to change the yam to corn and it will not change. It is a mockery of divine justice to say that genuine love sown by those whose religious persuasions are different from us is not the true love that Jesus brought. 3. Genuine love is the spiritual lever, the guide that leads to God and Jesus and as long as one opens his heart to this genuine love, he or she will sooner or later come to the recognition of God and his son Jesus Christ either in this world or beyond this world. Stay blessed. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 10:45am On Oct 20, 2009 |
brb. . . |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 12:27pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
m_nwankwo: Oh my God! You call this a crude analogy? This is the most brilliant write-up i have seen on this Forum! Brilliant! Brilliant!! Brilliant!!! |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Abuzola(m): 12:54pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
'verily, it is of their falsehood that they say God has begotten ? And verily they are liars' Quran 37:151-152 |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 12:59pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Abuzola: And verily I tell you that mohammed and allah are liars. . . . |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by Abuzola(m): 1:36pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
God ve mercy on you |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by KunleOshob(m): 2:45pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
noetic15: |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 5:44pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
@ m_nwankwo . . . .thanks for ur reply, . . .this is my fourth attempt to post this . . .my connection is acting funny. The truth Jesus brought to the world is not subject to the unbiblical analyses u have stated. And I find it disturbing that I have to respond to such. Honestly ur claims are very ambiguous. a. The truth of Christ is the establishment of the kingdom of God. The link to that kingdom is Jesus Christ, His salvation and divinity. I do not know of any biblical injunction that allows that the death of Jesus be seperated from his message. Recognising Jesus as the Son of God is a personal choice and just like the acknowledgement of His death and salvation. The death of Jesus is a spiritual event that took place from the foundation of the world as the remedy for the sins and disconnect of man. To disregard or dismiss the death on the cross is an attempt to look at the death from a mere physical angle. The death on the cross dennoted several spiritual dimensions and events namely: # the tearing of the holiest of the holiest of the temple. . . . thus allowing that abode of God became in humans and not in temple. # the ressurection of the dead to eternity. # the manifestation of the holy spirit to man. prior to that it has been the exclusive preserve of a select few. # the radical redirection of the religious practices of that age. It is pertinent to understand that the death and ressurection of Jesus lend credence to several events as we see of it today. Its spiritual significance is better illustrated in the sonship one enjoys with God today. If one does not have to believe in the death and ressurection of Jesus. . how then does one become a Child of God? how then does one get the holy spirit? how does one get to fellowship with God, since He no longer resides in man made temples? The message of Jesus did NOT connect ur to God. . . . . twas His death and ressurection that did. By believing He died and was raised, we receive the power to become God's sons, by using this power (holy spirit) we become God's sons and inherit eternity. how then can u become a child of God without believing the death and resurrection of Christ. b. contrary to ur assertion. . .Jesus came to the earth to die for our sins and He made that very very clear. He foretold His death and also affirmed that whatsoever is asked in his name (after He has resurrected), according to the will of God will be granted. how then can anyone dismiss this singular event of His death and ressurection? The xtian hope is largely centred around the victory over death. . . . .the core message of the gospel has been about his resurrection. This singular event gave the likes of peter and other disciples the faith and courage to preach the gospel at the expense of their lives. . .how then can u seprate this from Christ's message? . . . . .Salvation lies in the death of Jesus. c. ur understanding of "LOVE" has no place with the bible, Jesus or God. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 6:13pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
^^^ Man, i am thoroughly amazed at your limited reading of scripture, but more at your world view. Its ok, i think our world-views are so drastically different that we may never convince each other. I wonder what you think will happen to children or adolescents in this regard. How can you fail to see how your dogma would sound to a person of a different culture. A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it. Gosh. I just cant believe how any rational person could believe this in the first place. And worse still, believe that if others do not accept it as he has, then such others are damned, regardless of the purity of their hearts, the goodness of their ways, the humilty of their minds, or the peace and love they giv ethe world. Let me ask you how belief in a fact, would validate or invalidate that fact? How belief in a fact, would change the state of a pure or evil soul. A good man who disbelieves it does not cease to be good, any more than an evil man who believes it will cease to be evil. I am surprised the essence of M_Nwankwo's example of the Child - Professor is lost on you. Cant you see that one can already be something without recognising it? Did we not give you the verse where Jesus said he would welcome people to his kingdom who did not even know that they were serving him? How can you say these things Noetic? Dont you realise how awfully narrow-minded you are beginning to sound? ? ? Go and read the beatitudes again. - Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. [size=16pt]Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God. [/size] [size=16pt]Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. [/size] Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven Look at the highlighted parts again. What do they tell you Noetic? Where does it say here that one needs to know or even believe in any death? And this was his most succinct and in-depth statement on salvation. Gosh, Noetic - CANT YOU SEE IT? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 6:29pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Deep Sight: 1. can u just stop being intellectually irrational. why do u keep singling out verses to suit ur own dogma? the bible says clearly in john3:17. . . that those who dont believe are condemned. The parable of the good samaritan establishes that the love of God is founded on the worship of God, . . .what else do u want? u cannot choose and pick what message of Jesus to believe or disbelieve? how do u explain these verses? 2. u are helplessly blinded by preconceived dogmas. why do want to go to heaven without believing in Jesus? why do u have a problem acknowledging his death and salvation? The verses u posted above are strictly for those who believe and worship God and not for every tom, dick and harry. 3. construct a meaningful argument from the bible and stop all these needless distractions. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 6:32pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Deep Sight: Above, i already showed you what believing in him is all about. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 6:34pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Why all the brouhaha about this mythical heaven that exist only on the pages of a book(bible) and in the imaginations of people. . . .OK let us go through the bible and see how it describes heaven. . . . "And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, WHICH WAS, AND IS , AND IS TO COME." (Revelation 4:6- Here we have a rare description of heaven where it appears frightening with very strange beasts. It is very clear that one cannot help to think that it seems more a description of the mythical hell than a the mythical heaven. . . . "And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6) How can this description of heaven inspire an image of a peaceful afterlife with all these ghastly beasts and spirits about? |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 6:35pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Noetic - Who's being irrational, me, or someone who declares Mahatma Ghandi damned on account of the dogma below: A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by mazaje(m): 6:38pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
@Deep Sight Noetic is not the person that wrote that christians alone will go to the mythical heaven. . . . .that is what the writers of the bible wrote down. . . .so what exactly is the point you are trying to make |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by DeepSight(m): 6:40pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Noetic - In addittion to all this, you are willing to assert that the Beatitudes were lies. I am amazed that in order to support man-made dogma, you are willing to declare that Jesus was telling lies when he mouthed the beatitudes? Because if he was not telling lies, then - "Blessed are the Peace Makers, for they shall be called Children of God" Defintely qualifies Mahatma Ghandi, beyond any human being living or dead, to be called a Child of God. |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 7:01pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Deep Sight: And I have repeatedly told u that ur understanding of love is not what Jesus taught. Deep Sight: what rubbish is this? did Ghandi know Jesus?. . . .YES did he hear the gospel? . . . , YES did he accept Jesus gift/offer of salvation?. . . . .NO so why then should he make heaven after dedicating his life to the service of idols? |
Re: Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven? by noetic15(m): 7:02pm On Oct 20, 2009 |
Deep Sight: what sort of nonsense is this? is Ghandi a peace maker? what do u understand by peace makers? |
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