SirShymexx:


And what are the "facts" according to real history and early European explorers - not some village jejune tales/revisionism for dyck waving?

Please educate me.

well looking at the geography of Nigeria, it would av being impossible for the early Europeans who came by sea to have met the Ijebus 1st, skipping the Eguns and Aworis in Lagos, I have no idea of the history books that said Ijebus mer the Europeans 1st, the first story building, first primary school, first church are in Badagry.

OPCNAIRALAND:
^^^
There are some embellishments in your response which, beside mentioning awareness, Im not going to dig into since they are not principal to the theme under discussion.

Social order is a first and fundamental principle of society. It is the framework that nation building, and ultimately, development and progress rest on.

At one point in their history the Asian examples you stated spoke the language of their colonial lords. Their social heirarchy was modeled after their colonial master's. Their academies were Eurocentric. Today these countries have subordinated the colonial civilization to home grown philosophies. Language, art, knowledge, worship, dress mode, cinema...have all found outlet in indigenous tongues and customs. This simply is the first step in rebirth. The second stage of their transformation is borrowed, again out of their indigenous principles, that humanity is one and diversity yields evolution.

So whatever gains is attributed to the new age in Asia is founded in their revolutionary change for recognition and elevation of indigeneous ancestry.

Ahmadinejad is fluent in English language and French, yet during his term as President speaks Farsi when on international engagement.

India began to exercise policies aimed at rebirthing itself, Pakistan and Bangladesh found it incompatible and went separate ways.

You might contend that Brazil is at par with India and still speaking colonial language. This is so because India was before England colonized it, whereas there was nothing known as Brazil before its colonization by Portuguese. Again, indigenization...in other words ancestry, ....is the framework around which any society can hope to reinvent and emerge as a respectable member of human society.

Yoruba has a philosophy that is reinventable. We must first indigenize ourselves. This is the mission the new Ooni has started. He is not condemning others, but he talks everyday about Yoruba language and unification of the Sixteen principles of ancestry. He knows what he is doing. Within the Sixteen principles are the Sovereign Crowns (Nationhood), Ifa Theology (Philosophy), deity worship (Divinity), urbanism (Diversity), art (Scholarship), and so on and so forth....

Each ethnic people waking up to its own reinvention accumulates to a new consciousness and awakening that self-evolve and gradually sheds the undesirable aspects stereotypical to Black lives and societies.

And you conveniently ignored my reference to South American countries that necessarily didn't tow the path of Asia, but are also edging closer to full-blown industrialization.

Asia and Africa has many parallels that'd make whatever you're proposing difficult to implement. India has perhaps the most diverse number of ethnicities, but they've got a unifying factor in Hinduism (the Mughals and the British weren't able to erode their religion). Hindi, the language stayed, and it's one of the reason for the cultural re-awakening and identification with their brilliant past.

China had to outlaw religions as one of their core reasons to get their act right. They maintained the Chinese language. And when you have 1 billion speakers of one language, it is hard not to develop your common heritage.

Should I talk about the Japanese, the Koreans, the Malaysians (with malay), or Pakistanis (Muslims of Indian descent)?

Way before the Europeans came to Asia, these people already had their identity. There was already a China, a Japan, a Korea. The Indian sub-continent halted the onslaught of Alexander the great way before Christianity was a thing.

There is nothing in all of sub-Saharan Africa to compare with those. Nigeria started existing in 1914. We don't speak Nigerian. We have more than 200 ethnicities and the big 3 justling for attention. We don't even have a unifying religion of old like Shintoism in Japan, Confucianism in China, or Hindu in India. We don't even have a Nigerian style of dressing.

Most countries over here are fabrications with zero unifying factor. So don't look at Asia and think we can just replicate what is happening over there by batting your eyelid. Maybe if Nigeria divides into regions, we can attempt to be like Asian and Europe in this respect.

But I don't see that happening, so we've got to look at the people who are a lot like us, but are doing great for themselves--South America. Either that, or we craft a unique African response to the myriad of problems we have. Don't say we can't, because we have all we need.

-Lord

masseratti:
well looking at the geography of Nigeria, it would av being impossible for the early Europeans who came by sea to have met the Ijebus 1st, skipping the Eguns and Aworis in Lagos, I have no idea of the history books that said Ijebus mer the Europeans 1st, the first story building, first primary school, first church are in Badagry.

Lol. There was no "Egun" at that point in history - it was Dahomey. And Aworis were farmers in Eko and mainland areas. They never even had any contacts with Aworis, till the rise of Benin in the 15th century, and subsequently, a trade coast was established in Eko. Eko became a trade coast long before Badagry. And Epe was the first trade coast. Heck, the Awujale gave the Portuguese explorers a trade post on the coast in Lekki - way before Eko became a trade post.

We're talking about the 14th century here and the 200 years reign of the Portuguese who were the first to explore West Africa - not the 19th century when the colonial Brits reigned supreme. Heck, before Badary had all the things you listed - Eko already got its independence from the Portuguese. Meaning: Eko was an independent country.

The way you threw all kinds of timelines in the mix shows you've zero knowledge of history. What has 14th century got to do with 19th century?

SirShymexx:
LordAdam

I don't think you have an understanding of the subject matter. Honestly, a lot of you don't, hence I don't bother most times. I'll post this last comment and leave it there.

Nelson Mandela like most black leaders/people, he was a simp – hence he sold out his people, for hero-worship in the west. Nelson Mandela isn’t a good example to cite cos he’s the reason why his people are the way they’re. Black South Africans (if coloured population is added to their population) make up almost 90% of the population, yet almost 90% of the South African economy/wealth is owned by the whites. Evidently, the Nelson Mandela example is a terrible one.

I don't even think you know the history of Haiti, Jamaica and the rest of the Caribbean countries you cited and how they're governed. Haiti's history is deep. And all the Caribbean countries you cited are till indirectly under British rule - with the Queen as the head of those countries.

American independence has no correlation whatsoever with black folks. A bunch of renegade ethnic Brits, Irish, and a few other European with the support of the French in Canada and African slaves – fighting again their homeland for the total control of their new abode – has no correlation whatsoever with the struggle of black folks.

Lagos isn’t a success story and a terrible example. Any overpopulated shytehole with the concentration of almost all the resources in a country that has some natural resources. I bet you don’t know that cities like Cairo, Algiers, Cape Town, and J’burg have higher GDP than Lagos. And apart from Cairo, which as overpopulated as Lagos – the rest are decent cities and they represent what thriving cities ought to look like. If you understand economics, you’d know that Lagos on the other hand is a shytehole and a human disaster and what a city shouldn’t be.

What did Fulanis do to Yorubas in Ilorin that’s comparable to 400 years of killing, raping, maiming, and dehumanisation of a people – while using them for free labour? What happened in Ilorin is similar to how the US took California, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona etc. from Mexico – or how the UK has Northern Ireland under it – no correlation whatsoever with what we’re discussing. I honestly doubt you understand the history of Ilorin, and/or the subject matter.

And no, South Americans don’t practise pure Catholicism – they practise a hybrid form of it, with African religions. They created their own based on the convergence of the different cultures they’ve there.

Anyway, I’ll stop here cos I don’t think you have a proper grasp of the complexities of the problems plaguing Africans and black folks in general. It’s deeper than the simplistic way you’re looking at it. And even if you were to wake up tomorrow and kill all the corrupt folks and kow-tow to while folks – the problems are still going to be there. When you look at the foundation – you’ll see how effed up most African countries are – compared to, say, European countries. Evidently, things are never going to change – unless you appoint a brutal totalitarian with one-track mind, albeit with a good vision, to put everything in order. And he has to rule for at least 40 years lool.

But regardless, personally, I neither give a shyte about white folks nor rate them for anything. History is just there never to be forgotten and to solve ya problems, you always have to be cognizant about ya and how it affects ya existence.

Well, you do have a right to view past events how you deem fit. Or fail to see a connection, when it is glaring.

I have my objections to your statements, but I'm not getting on another tail-chasing run. (For example, are Cairo and Algiers black cities? Were J'Burg and Cape Town not developed by the whites and are being run aground by the blacks who only started holding sway in the 1990s? Let me just stop here...)

Especially, when your solution to African's problem is the statement in bold.

That just makes me want to throw up! And probably question your intelligence (no offense), because we have at least 15 totalitarian regimes at anytime in sub-Saharan Africa, and the countries they preside over are even worse shit.holes than other sub-Saharan African countries.

Apparently, you've resigned to the fact that Africa can't become developed, you can't think of a doable way to change the tide, so you take up the convenient task of taking aim at the Europeans just to feel good about yourself.

Good Lord! Is there a better definition of FAILURE.

Happy Sunday all the same.

-Lord

masseratti

I'm here to provide my own batch of academic references by Robin Law, a Professor of African history. And I hope you'll provide counter-evidence to prove me wrong cos we're all here to learn. Personally, I love reading history and whenever I see superior arguments, with academic proofs - it's a way to acquire to acquire more knowledge. Please, don't disappoint me and I don't want village fables. Also, make sure everything you post is based on timeline.

Exhibit 1: Early Portuguese Contact



You can clearly see on this exhibit that: when the Portuguese first arrived on the coast of West Africa (the first Europeans to do so), they visited Bini. However, something happened on the way, when Sequeira was going to Bini.

What happened? - we shall find out in the 2nd exhibit.



Exhibit 2: Rio Do Lago the Rivers of Lake and what's known today as the almighty LAGOS/EKO.



Oh, Sequeira saw the great city of Geebu (Ijebu) that's surrounded by a ditch (Sungbo Eredo) and ruled by Agusale (Awujale). Evidently, they met the Ijebus first, then proceeded to Benin afterwards. Though they cited Rio Do Lago (Lagos), they never mentioned the Aworis. Well, the Aworis were farmers back then with settlement there, and no type of kingdom. So, it would be very difficult to meet them.


Exhibit 3: Continuous Ijebu references and trading, especially Ijebu clothes



We can see Ijebu, Bini, and Mahin references - no word on Egun and Awori. Isn't it shocking that they referenced Rio Do Lago (Lagos) a lot, but never mentioned Aworis?


Exhibit 4: The rise of Bini Kingdom



With the rise of Bini and its expendition to Lagos, they halted direct trade with the Ijebus. Also, they started calling Rio Do Lago the Rivers of Ijebu. But still no mention of Aworis and Eguns. Trading resumed with the Ijebus later. But after this, you'll start seeing the citations of Aworis. Then later Dahomey, which Eguns, were part of.



Exhibit 5: Portuguese map of West Africa



They listed the trading posts in that region as follows: Sao Tome, Bini, Ijebu, Rio Forcado, and Rio Camaro. Sorry, I can't find Badagry there...what happened to Badagry? Oh, it was irrelevant and only became relevant after the decline of the Portuguese and the rise of the British Empire in the late 16th century (mostly 17th century).

Anyway, I just gave you Prime Time like Deion Sanders but still here to learn, if you've superior argument.

SirShymexx:


Lol. There was no "Egun" at that point in history - it was Dahomey. And Aworis were farmers in Eko and mainland areas. They never even had any contacts with Aworis, till the rise of Benin in the 15th century, and subsequently, a trade coast was established in Eko. Eko became a trade coast long before Badagry. And Epe was the first trade coast. Heck, the Awujale gave the Portuguese explorers a trade post on the coast in Lekki - way before Eko became a trade post.

We're talking about the 14th century here and the 200 years reign of the Portuguese who were the first to explore West Africa - not the 19th century when the colonial Brits reigned supreme. Heck, before Badary had all the things you listed - Eko already got its independence from the Portuguese. Meaning: Eko was an independent country.

The way you threw all kinds of timelines in the mix shows you've zero knowledge of history. What has 14th century got to do with 19th century?

Portuguese didn't have a colony in Nigeria, they traded with. People they had contact with, Dahomey is is a name adopted by the French protectorate, the etymology of the name is from the Egun city of Abomey, just like Nigeria the country is not mono ethnic that's why Kerekou changed the name of the country to adopt the name Benin after the bight of benin, the name of the coastline from togo to PH.

masseratti:
Portuguese didn't have a colony in Nigeria, they traded with. People they had contact with, Dahomey is is a name adopted by the French protectorate, the etymology of the name is from the Egun city of Abomey, just like Nigeria the country is not mono ethnic that's why Kerekou changed the name of the country to adopt the name Benin after the bight of benin, the name of the coastline from togo to PH.

Le sigh.

The discourse is about which group had the first contact with Europeans - not colony.

I've provided the first batch of my own proofs - how about do the same and stop going in circles?

I gave you the 1400s...the earliest period. Where's your own proof?

SirShymexx:
masseratti

I'm here to provide my own batch of academic references by Robin Law, a Professor of African history. And I hope you'll provide counter-evidence to prove me wrong cos we're all here to learn. Personally, I love reading history and whenever I see superior arguments, with academic proofs - it's a way to acquire to acquire more knowledge. Please, don't disappoint me and I don't want village fables. Also, make sure everything you post is based on timeline.

Exhibit 1: Early Portuguese Contact



You can clearly see on this exhibit that: when the Portuguese first arrived on the coast of West Africa (the first Europeans to do so), they visited Bini. However, something happened on the way, when Sequeira was going to Bini.

What happened? - we shall find out in the 2nd exhibit.



Exhibit 2: Rio Do Lago the Rivers of Lake and what's known today as the almighty LAGOS/EKO.



Oh, Sequeira saw the great city of Geebu (Ijebu) that's surrounded by a ditch (Sungbo Eredo) and ruled by Agusale (Awujale). Evidently, they met the Ijebus first, then proceeded to Benin afterwards. Though they cited Rio Do Lago (Lagos), they never mentioned the Aworis. Well, the Aworis were farmers back then with settlement there, and no type of kingdom. So, it would be very difficult to meet them.


Exhibit 3: Continuous Ijebu references and trading, especially Ijebu clothes



We can see Ijebu, Bini, and Mahin references - no word on Egun and Awori. Isn't it shocking that they referenced Rio Do Lago (Lagos) a lot, but never mentioned Aworis?


Exhibit 4: The rise of Bini Kingdom



With the rise of Bini and its expendition to Lagos, they halted direct trade with the Ijebus. Also, they started calling Rio Do Lago the Rivers of Ijebu. But still no mention of Aworis and Eguns. Trading resumed with the Ijebus later. But after this, you'll start seeing the citations of Aworis. Then later Dahomey, which Eguns, were part of.



Exhibit 5: Portuguese map of West Africa



They listed the trading posts in that region as follows: Sao Tome, Bini, Ijebu, Rio Forcado, and Rio Camaro. Sorry, I can't find Badagry there...what happened to Badagry? Oh, it was irrelevant and only became relevant after the decline of the Portuguese and the rise of the British Empire in the late 16th century (mostly 17th century).

Anyway, I just gave you Prime Time like Deion Sanders but still here to learn, if you've superior argument.

i applaud you for your post and the reference, but I don't have to put up any counter, not yet btw, just one question, so the Portuguese didn't meet anyone from Volta river in Ghana till when they got to Benin kingdom? the only people they met were the Ijebus? Wow that's fascinating. Will be back, lets enjoy the match.

masseratti:
i applaud you for your post and the reference, but I don't have to put up any counter, not yet btw, just one question, so the Portuguese didn't meet anyone from Volta river in Ghana till when they got to Benin kingdom? the only people they met were the Ijebus? Wow that's fascinating. Will be back, lets enjoy the match.

Well, the volta region in Ghana is inconsequential here cos the discourse is about present day Nigeria.

And Ghana isn't part of Nigeria, is it?

One of his great grand children happens to be my colleague at work. I ll drill her for her family history.

there are lots of threads on European contact with indigenous Nigerians. Though I'm no history student, I'll wait and learn something new here

SirShymexx:


Well, the volta region in Ghana is inconsequential here cos the discourse is about present day Nigeria.

And Ghana isn't part of Nigeria, is it?

its very consequencial with this your post

The author of your book use the word may and he assumed alot, he is not an eye witness, his works were based on other people's story, rio De lago? lolz where is that? the lagoon is not a river, apart from this source, do you have anywhere you can quote that from?
Am not even trying because the thing is hilarious
the Portuguese has being trading with coastal West Africans since 14th century, right from Dakar to benin, cote d'Ivoire was the trade post for ivory, Ghana accra, the Gold coast, Abomey to eko, slave coast.

Sorry I can't get you any source now, am not even in the mood to do that right now.

masseratti:
its very consequencial with this your post

The author of your book use the word may and he assumed alot, he is not an eye witness, his works were based on other people's story, rio De lago? lolz where is that? the lagoon is not a river, apart from this source, do you have anywhere you can quote that from?
Am not even trying because the thing is hilarious
the Portuguese has being trading with coastal West Africans since 14th century, right from Dakar to benin, cote d'Ivoire was the trade post for ivory, Ghana accra, the Gold coast, Abomey to eko, slave coast.

Sorry I can't get you any source now, am not even in the mood to do that right now.

Lol, I'm lost here. My initial post was directed at a next poster and it was in the context of Yoruba/Nigeria. Then some highlighted the excerpt and asked me if it's true. However, you came out of nowhere to say it's a lie.

Subsequently, I provided proofs. But you're now shifting goalpost to Ghana. Like seriously, what has the discourse got to do with Ghana and was the post in which the excerpt was taken from in context of a Ghana and West Africa?

If you've got nothing to say, apart from the lies and revisionism you lot tell yourselves in that country - keep it over there.

SirShymexx:


Lol, I'm lost here. My initial post was directed at a next poster and it was in the context of Yoruba/Nigeria. Then some highlighted the excerpt and asked me if it's true. However, you came out of nowhere to say it's a lie.

Subsequently, I provided proofs. But you're now shifting goalpost to Ghana. Like seriously, what has the discourse got to do with Ghana and was the post in which the excerpt was taken from in context of a Ghana and West Africa?

If you've got nothing to say, apart from the lies and revisionism you lot tell yourselves in that country - keep it over there.

am currently using a phone am not used to, to post, so my apologies if i can't quote you properly, you mentioned Volta river, i pointed that out to you that to you that was in Ghana not Nigeria, no where have i read about rio de lago, apart from the book you are quoting, whose Author never stepped foot in Nigeria.
I know few rivers that were named by the Portuguese e.g. curamo, lagos lagoon etc.

masseratti:
am currently using a phone am not used to, to post, so my apologies if i can't quote you properly, you mentioned Volta river, i pointed that out to you that to you that was in Ghana not Nigeria, no where have i read about rio de lago, apart from the book you are quoting, whose Author never stepped foot in Nigeria.
I know few rivers that were named by the Portuguese e.g. curamo, lagos lagoon etc.

Supreme genius, what's the correlation between rivers named by Portuguese and the discourse?

And how do you know Robin Law has never stepped a foot in Nigeria? He's a Professor of African history and I'm sure, like most white historians with specialty in African studies, he has probably travelled around Africa afew times and most likely lived on the continent for a period of time. Prof. Chancellor Williams for example lived and travelled across Africa for almost three decades when he was writing his book. And he wasn't even white - he was AA. So, I won't be surprised if Robin Law has lived in Africa/Nigeria.

Regardless, if you actually read the screenshots I posted: you'd see that he was narrating the testimonies/writings of the European explorers who were there at that point in history, based on the records available. So, have you got any academic references to dispute this, or you're just going to keep pontificating while running around in circles?

Interesting read. I dont know anything to contribute on this King but Ive heard that his time was very prosperous for the natives because he held Portuguese by the balls and forced them to fulfill obligations promised to local merchants, a deed they had dodged in the times of previous occupiers on the throne. Even Britain who was actively advocating abolition and sent him on exile came around and partnered with him on trade. He used guerilla tactics to sabotage and sank merchant ships with English flag on their masts. He was in exile in Ijebu territory. Considering the heavy toll suffered by Royal Navy in attempts to oust him they were unprepared for another face off with him, particularly in his alliance with Awujale, notoriously reputed to be anti-England. So Queen Victoria dispatched Mr Leckie to go and negotiate truce with King Kosoko. Meanwhile, Kosoko had established another sea port for slave trading and was successful. In the truce he ended with three titles and a land lease from the Crown for himself and Crown grants for land and titles for his followers.

Kosoko retained his birthright and bloodline to the royal dynasty but agreed not to disturb the British installed King or disrupt merchant trade. In return he was made the owner of Ereko, his followers that wanted to remain in Epe were made owner of the Eko Epe and with a royal title, he leased the new sea port to the Crown and received annuities from the land. In honor of this great outcome the sea port was named for the truce negotiator, and is what we call Lekki (Leckie) till today. His followers originally were residents of Ita Balogun, Ereko. Part of the Leckie negotiation was to resettle them far from within reach of Kosoko who they feared was too clever and could restrategize not only to attack and dethrone the King a third time but also might unseat British foothold and reverse their fortunes. So his followers were resettled in Epetedo. Epetedo was a marshy farmland at the time before the settlement. You will notice that of all the wards in Lagos Island Epetedo is the only one with a planned urban layout. Twenty two family compounds were settled there. Oshodi, considering his loyalty and galantry, first to the 6th King of Lagos, King Eshilokun (Kosoko's father) and then to King Kosoko himself, was advanced and made a Chief for the entire ward, thereby transferring his service and loyalty away from Kosoko to his successor, King Dosunmu.

I am glad Beecroft shared with us some of the humiliation he experienced in the hand of Kosoko. Words have it that he once approached the King with offer of friendship and protection over Lagos against invaders, to which the King told him he can keep his friendship he has no need for his protection. On another occassion, I believe after he sacked Akintoye a second time from the throne and awaited staff and coronation rituals from Benin, Beecroft approached him again to rule over some dispute with Portuguese and Kosoko replied that the dispute will continue because he has yet to receive his staff of office.
I want to know more about the guy myself. I wish our Kings will be like this great King.

All hail King Kosoko, the machiavellian ruler of Lagos.

I read the ongoing Ijebu controversy. People do not truly give due credit to the Ijebus. Beside Ife, the only people in Yorubaland with the Priesthood legacy is Ijebu.

To understand our sacred customs and ancestral cults study Ife or Ijebu...or perharps both!

Here is a good article on a rare knowledge of how Ijebu influenced cultures and customs as far east as Ijaw.

Notice also the description of the shawl, its style and meaning. Go and read the bible, Exodus and hear the instruction given to the high priest of children of Israel about garments to be worn in the altar and how it should be sewn, four pieces sewn together with tasells.

No one should doubt the claim from Awujale that their roots is Nilotic. Yoruba migration consisted of cells representing various groups, all united in their Hebraic roots and tongue.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0ahUKEwje8rvf0ZXQAhWBSiYKHRzYChEQFggrMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1873%26context%3Dtsaconf&usg=AFQjCNH8lW1LmsFpUIRQoQGXX7XH4JWIfQ&sig2=xiPF_FbSmgDOE5GS2oVFxQ