I guess, as Christians, we must seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit while studying the Bible. It’s not that the Bible requires any “extra-logical” or mystical insight to understand it. But we are limited in our understanding and often hindered by pride. We need the Holy Spirit to help us to think correctly, lest we distort the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).

A person can spend his or her entire life and still never come close to mining the depths of Scripture. The Bible is written in such a marvelous way that a child can understand the basic message, and yet the most educated theologians continue to learn new things from the Bible as they study it. There is always so much more to learn, so we must humbly approach the Word of God.

LadyAnn:


According to bible Hub, The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence.—The Greek verb may be either in the middle voice, “forces its way violently,” or passive, as in the English version, but there is little doubt that the latter is the right rendering. The words describe the eager rush of the crowds of Galilee and Judæa, first to the preaching of the Baptist, and then to that of Jesus. It was, as it were, a city attacked on all sides by those who were eager to take possession of it.

don't misquote the word of God . I have given you the open meaning which is in mat23 vs 13. That's the simple meaning. Now you are eager to make heaven will you now attack the heaven. That verse is talking to those evil men that are blocking children of God to make heaven. Even spiritually kingdom of heaven never witness crowd rushing in that's why the trumpet has not been blown. Good news version will give you perfect meaning okay.

LadyAnn:


According to bible Hub, The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence.—The Greek verb may be either in the middle voice, “forces its way violently,” or passive, as in the English version, but there is little doubt that the latter is the right rendering. The words describe the eager rush of the crowds of Galilee and Judæa, first to the preaching of the Baptist, and then to that of Jesus. It was, as it were, a city attacked on all sides by those who were eager to take possession of it.

I have said it before that most christians interpret like that even biblehub you went to but the true meaning is what's happening in saudi arabia where jesus name is banned publicly, crosss or bible is banned. Now check the words "suffered violent attack" does it mean pressing or forcing in? Huh but we christians we are to desperate give bible meaning to suit us.

Sarassin:
I don't quite agree with your interpretation, it is not exact. You are giving a modern interpretive analysis to a verse with a classical meaning

The explanation has no falsehood, it does not need to be modern or classical but only be truthful

Sarassin:
Matt11:12 presupposes the Jewish conviction that men could accelerate the coming of the Messianic times and even force it down immediately by certain actions, either of obedience or of disobedience to the commandments of God. An example can be found in Shab. 118b which states “the Messiah and the final redemption would come at once, if all Israel were to observe “two successive Sabbaths, nay one single Sabbath rightly as it ought to be kept”.

Such apparent violation of the Divine plans of Providence was not always considered a sin. We can observe the sayings in the Talmud, that ” God loves to be conquered by a sinner through repentance”.

The technical term used was "pressing against the Messianic Time," the equivalency of which is translated into the Evangelic expression "storm the kingdom" or "take it by force". This conviction was not without its own controversy. Contemporary Rabbi scholars of the day record that four generations had already perished, because they tried to invade the "Kingdom".

Of particular mention is the generation of Bar-Kokhba, the Pseudo-Messiah.

I rather you submit biblical verse than shoving front a Talmud extract etcetera that there is a Jewish conviction that men could accelerate the coming of the Messianic times and even force it down immediately by certain actions

Sarassin:
There’s no confusion if you leave the verse as it were and read it in its proper context.

He actually means KJV uses words like ''suffer'' or ''suffereth'' that have lost a particular meaning in modern day usage

Sarassin:
Jesus, attributes an over-zealousness to the Baptist and the violent ones. Yet he thinks that God does not disapprove at all of such men, who are " eaten up by the zeal for his house," and that indeed the Baptist and his followers' fervent repentance had somehow brought nearer the Kingdom. Therefore, because he prepares the Lord's way, instead of merely foretelling it, he is the greatest among mortals.

John was said to be ''greatest among mortals'' solely on the basis and fact that it was him given the great task of preparing the way for the Lord and foretelling it

Notice after Jesus made that remark, He immediately, added that, the least in the kingdom is greater that John the Baptist, then followed it with OP's Matthew 11:12 , with Luke 16:16 being a mirror version of Matthew 11:12

jcross19:
This is my first interpretation of that verse quoted by op but that's not true[size=5pt] until I was led by the spirit of God. Before you understand that verse you have to understand the meaning of "kingdom of God","suffereth',"violence" and "violent" in that sentence. most christians interpreted this verse in that way which is not, because that verse is talking to the wicked people , now look at the verse from good news:mathew 11 vs 12; from the time john preached his message until this very day the kingdom of heaven has suffered VIOLENT attacks,and VIOLENT men try to seize it then check the verse mathew 23 vs 13 : but woe unto you , scribes,pharisees and hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. That's the meaning of what jesus was trying to say in that verse of matthew 11 vs 12[/size]

Killing of john baptist, killing of jesus , the apostles, burning of bible and many evil atrocities against children of God by men who don't others to make heaven by placing stumbling block to the people who are thirsty for the water of life.

Doubts are like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. Your first interpretation was right

The violent are believers fighting against all odds to enter the Kingdom of Heaven

The Kingdom of Heaven permits this, allows this, lets this happen, welcomes this etcetera
Read more in the below following

jcross19:
don't misquote the word of God.

No misquoting but more of an inadvertent eisegesis from your end

jcross19:
I have given you the open meaning which is in mat23 vs 13. That's the simple meaning

Luke 16:16 is the mirror version of Matthew 11:12

jcross19:
Now you are eager to make heaven will you now attack the heaven

The kindgom of Heaven accepts us as we are, most of us come along with affliction baggages. If the gate to life aka The kindgom of Heaven is already narrow for an ordinary person, imagine what a challenge it will be for someone strandled with affliction baggages to get in, such will have to FORCE way through the narrow gate
It is not an attack on heaven but is the eager squeezing, wriggling, twisting and turning trying to FORCE their way in through the narrow gate

jcross19:
That verse is talking to those evil men that are blocking children of God to make heaven.

Matthew 23 :13 is talking to those evil men that are blocking children of God to make heaven but Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 IS NOT talking to or talking about those evil men that are blocking children of God to make heaven.

jcross19:
Even spiritually kingdom of heaven never witness crowd rushing in that's why the trumpet has not been blown. Good news version will give you perfect meaning okay

Rushing is not the right word, but forcing is the right word
If surrounded at all fronts by, peer pressure, social pressure, social influence, increasingly moral and cultural decline, immoderateness, serious decline in biblical beliefs or values, then people (i.e. crowd) will need to push, force through obstacles such as these to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
The gospel, the good news, the glad tiding will suffocate, if people (i.e. crowd) dont force their minds to climb up the sides of the few obstacles aforementioned and rise above the to breathe in the fresh and life giving sweet smelling fragrance air of the gospel

jcross19:
I have said it before that most christians interpret like that even biblehub you went to but the true meaning is what's happening in saudi arabia where Jesus name is banned publicly, crosss or bible is banned

This is typical of where, how and why the Kingdom of Heaven TOLERATES VIOLENCE, because it is in the face of adversity not peculiar to Saudi Arabia alone where Jesus name is banned publicly, cross or bible is banned, that one will have to be strong, force their faith through

jcross19:
Now check the words "suffered violent attack" does it mean pressing or forcing in? Huh but we christians we are to desperate give bible meaning to suit us

"suffered violent attack" means "TOLERATE STRONG ADVANCING" similar to Matthew 19:14 or Mark 10:14, where Jesus used the old KJV word ''suffer'' to the disciples about children
''Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God''
Suffer = Allow, Tolerate, Permit, Let be, etctera

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
- Luke 16:16 KJV

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.
- Luke 16:16 ESV

If it doesnt mean pressing or forcing in, then what does ''biazo'' in Luke 16:16 mean?
Note that Luke 16:16 is the mirror version of Matthew 11:12

Most information, invention, discovery, fashion etcetera out there is trying to deny the knowledge of God, and in order to rise above and be on top of them, you will need to or have to force your way through them all

You dont have to go all the way to Saudi Arabia to experience banning of the mention of the name Jesus or banning the cross, some household, families in Naija ban these and if disobeyed risk getting disowned or ostracised by fathers, mothers, siblings, other family members etcetera

MuttleyLaff:
Doubts are like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. Your first interpretation was right
The violent are believers fighting against all odds to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
The Kingdom of Heaven permits this, allows this, lets this happen, welcomes this etcetera
Read more in the below following

I think so too.

LadyAnn:
Permission to share on my watsapp debate group?

JMAN05:
So you need my number to add me? How can I get it across, I won't share that here.

LadyAnn:
No I do not Need your number Sir/Madame. Absolutely Not. I'm confused here. I nearly asked permission to quote your interpretation. Not you. You've got it completely wrong dear and I somewhat feel offended that you will even misconstrue my words/intention. I only, politely asked permission to use your (quote) which I found to be a clear and concise interpretation. Wow!

JMAN05:
Ok

What a comedy of errors
The ''need my number'' misunderstanding got me doubled up. Kikiki ki...

Remember Matthew 10:8 is instructive that freely it is received, freely it is to be given
No copyright infringement, carry go, feel free to share anywhere and/or anytime

MuttleyLaff:






What a comedy of errors
The ''need my number'' misunderstanding got me doubled up. Kikiki ki...

Remember Matthew 10:8 is instructive that freely it is received, freely it is to be given
No copyright infringement, carry go, feel free to share anywhere and/or anytime

Thanks but it's fine. I was just being polite by asking permission.

Some churches will tell you it means violent prayers such as oruko Jesu l'emeta, Ina emi mimo l'emeje, Ogun orun oooooo, eje Jeeesu l'emarun, oya gbaduraaaa....gbogbo Ota aye mi, oya e bomi lo....etc and you see folks shaking their heads, nodding their heads like lizards.... . Is that Christianity.

Some will say something else on the same verse. Can both be right in their interpretation? Certainly not! Study to show yourself APPROVED UNTO GOD....RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth.

Since you have been taught to take it by force in praying violent prayer, just pause a minute and ask yourself what has changed? It is foolishness to keep repeating the same thing over and over again without any results and you think you doing the right thing.

I pray the same Apostolic prayer, THAT THE EYES OF THEIR UNDERSTANDING (not what their pastors and traditions of men taught them) OPENED.

MuttleyLaff:
No misquoting but more of an inadvertent eisegesis from your end

Luke 16:16 is the mirror version of Matthew 11:12

The kindgom of Heaven accepts us as we are, most of us come along with affliction baggages. If the gate to life aka The kindgom of Heaven is already narrow for an ordinary person, imagine what a challenge it will be for someone strandled with affliction baggages to get in, such will have to FORCE way through the narrow gate
It is not an attack on heaven but is the eager squeezing, wriggling, twisting and turning trying to FORCE their way in through the narrow gate

Matthew 23 :13 is talking to those evil men that are blocking children of God to make heaven but Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 IS NOT talking to or talking about those evil men that are blocking children of God to make heaven.

Rushing is not the right word, but forcing is the right word
If surrounded at all fronts by, peer pressure, social pressure, social influence, increasingly moral and cultural decline, immoderateness, serious decline in biblical beliefs or values, then people (i.e. crowd) will need to push, force through obstacles such as these to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
The gospel, the good news, the glad tiding will suffocate, if people (i.e. crowd) dont force their minds to climb up the sides of the few obstacles aforementioned and rise above the to breathe in the fresh and life giving sweet smelling fragrance air of the gospel

in some of your explanations was based word to word interpretation like where you quote that jesus said suffer not the children to come to me , is the interpretation of that mathew11 vs 12 because the word suffer is there? Funny!!!!.you mean because the gate of heaven is narrow that means when going to heaven your baggages will be hitting the door edge of the gate right? Wow good understanding sir. Have given you the direct interpretation of it mathew 23 vs 13. If you are confused try to pray on that verse and HE will show you the meaning not quoting irrelevant verses. I was once like that until my eyes was opened to know the actual meaning. Even some scholars failed in that verse.

jcross19:
in some of your explanations was based word to word interpretation
like where you quote that Jesus said suffer not the children to come to me , is the interpretation of that mathew11 vs 12 because the word suffer is there? Funny!!!!.

Nobody mentioned suffer not in any of the so far explanations on this thread
and if you think Jesus said suffer not the children, then the funny, the joke and the ugly is on you pal

jcross19:
you mean because the gate of heaven is narrow that means when going to heaven your baggages will be hitting the door edge of the gate right? Wow good understanding sir

You marvel, because you have been overlooking the epexegesis

Have you ever approached a narrow gate holding portmanteaus?
(e.g. holding two heavy suitcase in each hands, with extra two clasped under the armpits)

There are at least two choices, which are:
Put down the portmanteaus to easily go through the turnstile narrow gate
or hold on tightly to the baggges whilst you try squeezing, pushing, wriggling, do all that's necessary etcetera to force your way through the turnstile narrow gate

jcross19:
Have given you the direct interpretation of it mathew 23 vs 13

There is a very serious error in this reasoning and comment
You're joking with connecting OP's with Mathew 23 :13, aren't you?
I dont doubt you're a clever person but sorry, that direct interpretation plus connecting OP's with Mathew 23 :13 can't and/or shouldnt be taken seriously

jcross19:
If you are confused try to pray on that verse and HE will show you the meaning not quoting irrelevant verses

If you cant correctly quote what I wrote or cant correctly quote the gist of Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14 or Luke 18:16, then you, more than anyone else, need prayer for confusion

jcross19:
I was once like that until my eyes was opened to know the actual meaning. Even some scholars failed in that verse

What does ''suffereth'' mean in Matthew Matthew 11:12
and who are ''the violent'' taking it by force in Matthew 11:12?

Also and this is for the second time asking you, what does ''biazo'' in Luke 16:16 & Matthew 11:12 mean?
Note that Luke 16:16 is the mirror version of Matthew 11:12

N[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=50967969]Nobody mentioned suffer not in any of the so far explanations on this thread
and if you think Jesus said suffer not the children, then the funny, the joke and the ugly is on you pal

You marvel, because you have been overlooking the epexegesis

Have you ever approached a narrow gate holding portmanteaus?
(e.g. holding two heavy suitcase in each hands, with extra two clasped under the armpits)

There are at least two choices, which are:
Put down the portmanteaus to easily go through the turnstile narrow gate
or hold on tightly to the baggges whilst you try squeezing, pushing, wriggling, do all that's necessary etcetera to force your way through the turnstile narrow gate

There is a very serious error in this reasoning and comment
You're joking with connecting OP's with Mathew 23 :13, aren't you?
I dont doubt you're a clever person but sorry, that direct interpretation plus connecting OP's with Mathew 23 :13 can't and/or shouldnt be taken seriously

If you cant correctly quote what I wrote or cant correctly quote the gist of Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14 or Luke 18:16, then you, more than anyone else, need prayer for confusion

What does ''suffereth'' mean in Matthew Matthew 11:12
and who are ''the violent'' taking it by force in Matthew 11:12?

Also and this is for the second time asking you, what does ''biazo'' in Luke 16:16 & Matthew 11:12 mean?
Note that Luke 16:16 is the mirror version of Matthew"


Ouch!!! LoL MuttleyLaff you made me laugh. You disected the whole chapter.. .. JCross is more than likely to get cross...(it Rhymes) will certainly be following your posts with interest, wise one.