If I were to sum up the arguments between atheists and theists, I would say that atheists do not believe the universe was created while the theists do.


So going by the atheist's logic, the universe was uncaused, The world and everything within it, came by co-incidence. hence there is no tangible reason for our existence.

So My question is, who created the scientific laws and principles governing the earth? How did an uncaused physical entity set up rules to govern all that goes on within it.
If the world came accidentally, why does the organization within it,
seem to contradict it's accidental origin?

Brilliant question.

I just hope those apes wont come and spoil it.

I'll advice all atheists to derail this thread in order not to make fools of themselves.

my 2kobo

The laws of physics are just a method of describing the way things happen in the universe.

Normal physics is used to describe events on the atomic level and up but it isn't absolute.

Once we get to the subatomic level, the laws of normal physics get broken all willy-nilly and we describe that as quantum mechanics. Here, particles pop in and out is existence for no reason.

The problem with these laws is that they make for an extremely chaotic Universe, there is no rhyme or reason to most events and a lot of phenomena are caused by pure luck. Therefore, there is little evidence pointing towards a Grand Design. But some insist that such a complex Universe cannot be an accident.

By that logic, then a Grand Designer couldn't have occurred by accident too, so wouldn't it require one itself? If it does, we go into an infinite regress. If it doesn't, then what property does it possess to make it so and why isn't that property applicable to the Universe or some precursor?

The only reason why we're here asking whether all this could be a coincidence is because, well... we are here. We cannot know the number of 'failed' outcomes before us if there were even any failed outcomes before us.

But what about a god who started the process but only uses natural process to perform its actions? Well, such a god would be apathetic, impersonal and extremely chaotic, then why call it a God?

Sorry for the long rant but I just wanted to show you I (an agnostic atheist) address all these existential questions. This is purely my logic, different people will come up their own conclusions and that's fine. It is only when people claim to know the answer for certain that I will ask for proof.

Slaveman343:
I'll advice all atheists to derail this thread in order not to make fools of themselves.

my 2kobo

lol

[quote author=CoolUsername post=50991109]The laws of physics are just a method of describing the way things happen in the universe.



Yeah, indeed the laws of physics really are used for describing the way things happen in the universe,
But why is it that the things that happen in the universe tend to follow a particular pattern?

why is there a law of gravity?, if the universe could just "pop" into existence then why can't it just pop out of existence, why does the world seem too organised to have been a product of chance or coincidence?

[quote author=peacesamuel94 post=50991507][/quote]

The Universe itself didn't pop into existence. It expanded from a single point. What came before that is unknown.

Now it is possible (but improbable) for a single particle to pop into existence and expand but it is infinitely less probable for every single particle to pop out at a go, isn't it? Believe it or not, research is going in this very area because theoretically there's still a chance.

CoolUsername:


The Universe itself didn't pop into existence. It expanded from a single point. What came before that is unknown.

Now it is possible (but improbable) for a single particle to pop into existence and expand but it is infinitely less probable for every single particle to pop out at a go, isn't it? Believe it or not, research is going in this very area because theoretically there's still a chance.

Where was the single point?

What is that single point?

What did it contain?

What caused it to expand?

Where did space come from?

And if space came from the single point too, how could it expand and into what did it expand?

DoctorAlien:


Where was the single point?

What is that single point?

What did it contain?

What caused it to expand?

Where did space come from?

And if space came from the single point too, how could it expand and into what did it expand?

I dunno, probably doesn't involve sky fairies though.

CoolUsername:


I dunno, probably doesn't involve sky fairies though.

Why did you try to make it look as if you're so sure of how everything came about? Isn't it an act of dishonesty to parade yourself as someone in the know when, in fact, you know nothing?

DoctorAlien:


Why did you try to make it look as if you're so sure of how everything came about? Isn't it an act of dishonesty to parade yourself as someone in the know when, in fact, you know nothing?

Atleast the little he knows is substanciated with evidence.

taurus25:

Atleast the little he knows is substanciated with evidence.

What little does he know?

DoctorAlien:


What little does he know?

Sir, i really dont have the strength to embark on a cyclic argument this lovely night. I know you theists are seeking a magical explanation for the universe.....goodluck with that.

taurus25:

Sir, i really dont have the strength to embark on a cyclic argument this lovely night. I know you theists are seeking a magical explanation for the universe.....goodluck with that.

More like you don't really know what to tell me.

I am not seeking a magical explanation of the universe. I know that GOD created the universe.

Goodluck with trying to explain to us how the universe came from nothing and then expanded.

DoctorAlien:


More like you don't really know what to tell me.

I am not seeking a magical explanation of the universe. I know that GOD created the universe.

Goodluck with trying to explain to us how the universe came from nothing and then expanded.

you see ....If am arguing with science and you with religion, we can never be on the same page.....

E.g how exactly can you prove god created the universe?.......a text from the bible?

The universe did not come from nothing (at least in the sense we understand nothing to be). The laws of physics in the macro universe doesnt hold in a quantum scale and further breaks down at the point of sigularity. We dont know how anything is supposed to behave at that point, or even if the point is actually real or imaginery (theoretical physics). The bottom line is we do not know.

Goodnight sir, because i can already envision your response.

peacesamuel94:


So going by the atheist's logic, the universe was uncaused, The world and everything within it, came by co-incidence. hence there is no tangible reason for our existence.

Yep, there is no tangible reason for our existence except to continue to exist ( survival) and ensure our continued existence as an individual, family, specie and life as a whole.

So My question is, who created the scientific laws and principles governing the earth?
How did an uncaused physical entity set up rules to govern all that goes on within it.

The question is not who but what. You are made to believe by your colonizers that the universe was created by a Hebrew speaking Jewish man. That is preposterous. Nobody knows the forced responsible for the creation of the universe.

If the world came accidentally, why does the organization within it,
seem to contradict it's accidental origin?

The world, that is our solar system with all its planets including the earth came about probability. There was enough gas and dust from other star explosions to start what is called accretion. This gas accretion lead to the creation of the sun, the earth and everything else in our solar system. Then the earth after a while after the formation of the solar system had the right conditions to support life.
The universe is a very chaotic place. There are only semblance of order in isolated areas, especially when veiwed within short time frames.

taurus25:


you see ....If am arguing with science and you with religion, we can never be on the same page.....

E.g how exactly can you prove god created the universe?.......a text from the bible?

The universe did not come from nothing (at least in the sense we understand nothing to be). The laws of physics in the macro universe doesnt hold in a quantum scale and further breaks down at the point of sigularity. We dont know how anything is supposed to behave at that point, or even if the point is actually real or imaginery (theoretical physics). The bottom line is we do not know.

Goodnight sir, because i can already envision your response.

I don't know why you think you're the only one who has a knowledge of science. Anyway, the delusion is common to "atheists".

For the fact that the universe did not create itself, Something created it.

Good night.

DoctorAlien:


I don't know why you think you're the only one who has a knowledge of science. Anyway, the delusion is common to "atheists".

For the fact that the universe did not create itself, Something created it.

Good night.

where did i suggest that i alone has knowledge of science.?...point out please

For the fact that the universe did not create itself, Something created it.

If something did...fine.... the fact is no one knows what exactly that thing is....yet

wirinet:
The world, that is our solar system with all its planets including the earth came about probability. There was enough gas and dust from other star explosions to start what is called accretion. This gas accretion lead to the creation of the sun, the earth and everything else in our solar system. Then the earth after a while after the formation of the solar system had the right conditions to support life.

Prove that this is what happened.

taurus25:
If something did...fine.... the fact is no one knows what exactly that thing is....yet

Good. At least, you've taken one step out of delusion. The Universe was created, and didn't pop out of nothing.

True, too, you don't know Who created the universe. One day, you will know Him.

DoctorAlien:


Good. At least, you've taken one step out of delusion. The Universe was created, and didn't pop out of nothing.

True, too, you don't know Who created the universe. One day, you will know Him.

kick started, not necessarily "created". It may be what and not who you know

taurus25:

kick started, not necessarily "created". It may be a what and not who you know

If you like use "jump-start." We know that Something brought the Universe into existence.

DoctorAlien:


If you like use "jump-start." We know that Something brought the Universe into existence.

glad we can agree that it might be a thing, that we dont know yet

taurus25:


glad we can agree that it might be a thing, that I dont know yet

Fixed.

DoctorAlien:


Why did you try to make it look as if you're so sure of how everything came about? Isn't it an act of dishonesty to parade yourself as someone in the know when, in fact, you know nothing?

No, I talked about the prevailing scientific hypotheses, the problematic logic around the Universe needing a creator because of how complex out is and so on.

I clearly stated that people would have different ways of reasoning these and my ideas are not set in stone. If you had read my post then maybe you'd've seen where I said all these things.

You ask where all these things came from because you have a ready-made answer in your head; it's the same answer for all your questions. But having an answer doesn't make you correct. The scientific method has allowed us take advantage of nature over the years. It may be slow and costly but our most reliable means towards finding our origins.

I'm proud to say I don't know yet instead of inventing an answer.

DoctorAlien:


Fixed.

personally, i dont have a problem with anyone claiming they know how the universe began.....if you have a belief, keep it. But dont preach it as the truth.

taurus25:

personally, i dont have a problem with anyone claiming they know how the universe began.....if you have a belief, keep it. But dont preach it as the truth.

What if I refuse?

DoctorAlien:


Prove that this is what happened.

Prove what? That galaxies, stars and planets were created from gas nebulae?
I hope you are not as ignorant as you sound.

wirinet:
Prove what? That galaxies, stars and planets were created from gas nebulae? I hope you are not as ignorant as you sound.

You have made no point. Instead you committed the ad hominem fallacy.
Again, prove that the post I quoted happened exactly as you said it.

DoctorAlien:


Good. At least, you've taken one step out of delusion. The Universe was created, and didn't pop out of nothing.

True, too, you don't know Who created the universe. One day, you will know Him.

Why are you so fixated with who and him? You are so delusional that you cannot understand that a Jewish man with a big diick cannot create the universe.
You, the earth, the solar system and even the milky way galaxy is infinitesimal as far as the universe is concerned.

[s]

wirinet:

Why are you so fixated with who and him? You are so delusional that you cannot understand that a Jewish man with a big diick cannot create the universe.
You, the earth, the solar system and even the milky way galaxy is infinitesimal as far as the universe is concerned.

[/s]

Off the point.

And, please, pretend to be civil, if you would quote me.

DoctorAlien:


You have made no point. Instead you committed the ad hominem fallacy.

Again, prove that the post I quoted happened exactly as you said it.

What is the ad hominem fallacy here , it is apparent you have no idea of elementary geography. Instead of you to enrol back to secondary school ( at least SSS) to learn elementary geography and some sciences, you are asking me to teach you star and planetary formation. You think I have the time to waste.