I have been discussing the idea that we live in a simulated reality for some time: an illusion of sorts.

But, even if true, just how could we ever know such a thing?
There are a number of interesting takes I would like to discuss regarding this.

Let me however open with a quote I picked from another Forum:

"Koukl points out that in order to recognize something as an illusion, two things are required: (1) the presence of a conscious observer who is capable of perception, and (2) the ability to distinguish between what is real and what is illusion.

If there were no conscious observers who can perceive, then it is impossible to know there is an illusion because the non-conscious do not perceive or know anything. So if consciousness was not real there would be no way to perceive that consciousness was just an illusion. If consciousness is required to perceive an illusion, then consciousness cannot itself be an illusion. Similarly, one would have to be able to perceive both the real world and the illusory world in order to know there is a distinction between the two, and to subsequently identify the illusory world as illusory. If all one perceived was the illusion, they would not be able to recognize it as such."

Takers?

Of course we live in a very deliberately created illusion. It is created by men who dominate the earth to keep the masses dumbed down and manageable.

The way to get to reality is by stripping down our current world to the human basic needs. Everything else is illusionary and made that way to benefit a few rulers and to make usury of the greater masses.

Some early African social system may have attained that strip down at some point. That is why the colonial masters had to instill disdain for our way of life. They needed slaves for their factories, houses, offices etc ... and convinced Africans into wasting years in school just to learn how to serve as such, and got us all believing it was better than the African way of life that had no usury in its structure.

It makes me believe it's very easy to manipulate people for selfish reasons. And we are living in a fools paradise. All of us. Except for a smart handful of European nobility that cooked up the social systems of the world to work for them.

MAY WE ALL KNOW REAL FREEDOM ONE DAY! !!!!!!!!

^^^ Fair enough. But this is not the sort of illusion being discussed here. I refer to an existential illusion rather than an economic or systemic one.

DeepSight:

^^^ Fair enough. But this is not the sort of illusion being discussed here. I refer to an existential illusion rather than an economic or systemic one.

What is the difference between existential illusion and an economic or systemic one ?

If, from infancy , we are sold the first illusion that resources are scare and must be competed for, then that forms the foundations of our perceptions or worldview, and upon which other existential illusions are constructed.

From this illusion of scarcity, we compel our selves to spend almost 100℅ of our lives struggling to accumulate as much of the so-called scarce resources as possible.
Therefore, our consciousness, our conscious perceptions become limited, unable to expand beyond primitive accumulation.

Now , here is the funny part.
Because we spend so much our lives trying to accumulate, we develop a natural fear of death. We complain that life is too short.
We then create an after-life , eternal life illusion to assuage our fears.
In other words, we create an illusion of time, more time to do something other than primitive accumulation.

This is why heaven is sold as a paradise, with no work, no strife, no economic structure, no usury.

Then God must be the conscious observer, you think?
Like you rightly said,
Only a conscious observer establishes illusory events.

I'll ask you, have you ever been unconscious?
My people refer to it as 'self-forgetfulness',
which happens once a while.

While I laid and faced up on a day, I, in a manner of speaking, forgot myself.
Suddenly, in that brief moment, my sight darted far into the cosmos overtaking the stars that dotted it's canopy.

If I had remained like that for long, I may have beheld the farthest realms and actual sizes of the cosmic constellations.

That's because I was unconscious.
But as soon as my consciousness returned I could see nothing beyond what every conscious mind beholds in space.

We're conscious creatures

plaetton:

What is the difference between existential illusion and an economic or systemic one ?

If, from infancy , we are sold the first illusion that resources are scare and must be competed for, then that forms the foundations of our perceptions or worldview, and upon which other existential illusions are constructed.

From this illusion of scarcity, we compel our selves to spend almost 100℅ of our lives struggling to accumulate as much of the so-called scarce resources as possible.
Therefore, our consciousness, our conscious perceptions become limited, unable to expand beyond primitive accumulation.

Now , here is the funny part.
Because we spend so much our lives trying to accumulate, we develop a natural fear of death. We complain that life is too short.
We then create an after-life , eternal life illusion to assuage our fears.
In other words, we create an illusion of time, more time to do something other than primitive accumulation.

This is why heaven is sold as a paradise, with no work, no strife, no economic structure, no usury.

Whilst this is very interesting, it still has little to do with the core existential sort of illusion which I am discussing. I would say that what you have referred to is better described as living in a definite reality with false notions about its system and economy which then cause one to invent an imaginary future reality to assuage same.

This is quite different from the existential question of your entire life as it is already being an illusion: a dream of a sort - a simulation that is in fact not real at all but only appears so when viewed through the biochemical visor and transmitter that is the human body.

flamingREED:
Then God must be the conscious observer, you think?
Like you rightly said,
Only a conscious observer establishes illusory events.

This is a very useful and nuanced question - if I may cast upon it the toga of a question, that is.

Indeed, only a conscious observer can begin to state that one event is real and another illusory. Indeed, there is a very fine line here: because one must wonder if at all anything can actually be said to be illusory. For all that we have are experiences: and to the extent that we experience something at all - can we ever call it an illusion? Is a dream at night an illusion? Is it not experienced?

(a) At the level of asking if our entire reality is an illusion, it is true that perhaps that ultimate author of teh said reality which we call God, is the only factor that may determine what is real at all: for it is the only factor that has a view of the entire program and can therefore know that which is inserted as a hallucination and that which actually happens.

Indeed, for as noted in the OP - "If all one perceived was the illusion, they would not be able to recognize it as such" - therefore being trapped in our reality as we are: we probably cannot ever tell if it is an illusion or not.

(b) But then again: is a hallucination itself not an event? Is it still not a "thing" that has "happened" or at least been experienced?
In that case we may well come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as illusion or hallucination but that everything is real to the conscious being experiencing the happening.

There rests a contradiction between (a) and (b) above which we must discuss to attempt to resolve.

I'll ask you, have you ever been unconscious?

Yes, I would say so - in deep dreamless sleep as well as a few times in the past when I have been well and truly done in by my dalliances with the bottle.

My people refer to it as 'self-forgetfulness',
which happens once a while.

Complete unconsciousness is quite different I think from the state you are trying to describe. The state you refer to is not unconscious at all: if anything it is super conscious. It is a state in which you exit the material and mortal self and sensibilities and stand outside of it completely. I have experienced such as this through a great many out of body experiences.

While I laid and faced up on a day, I, in a manner of speaking, forgot myself.
Suddenly, in that brief moment, my sight darted far into the cosmos overtaking the stars that dotted it's canopy.

If I had remained like that for long, I may have beheld the farthest realms and actual sizes of the cosmic constellations.

That is very much in tandem with having had an out of body experience or astral travel of a sort.

That's because I was unconscious.

No, you were super conscious.

But as soon as my consciousness returned I could see nothing beyond what every conscious mind beholds in space.

We're conscious creatures

You mean as soon as your material and mortal consciousness returned.

I think it is important that we fully understand TIME and LIGHT as i believe these two will provide clues as to whether we live in a simulation or not

Firstly, What is Time? Not the denominated fragment that man has structured to provide some sort of order in chaos. As far as present scientific advance is concerned we dont actually know what time is. When does time progress? Does time flow or does it morph instantaneously? Is time an entity that can be harnessed and manipulated? If yes, then i think it will be a strong evidence we live in a simulation.

Is the expansion of space creating new time? is the multiverse theory the answer? Are we living in a real world that is constantly branching out due to our choices?

Secondly, what gives light its characteristic speed? Will we ever develop good enough tech to observe the boundaries of our expanding universe (This will depend on us being able to manipulate light)?

mkmyers45:
I think it is important that we fully understand TIME and LIGHT as i believe these two will provide clues as to whether we live in a simulation or not

This is a most important point you have made I think.

Firstly, What is Time? Not the denominated fragment that man has structured to provide some sort of order in chaos. As far as present scientific advance is concerned we dont actually know what time is. When does time progress? Does time flow or does it morph instantaneously?

Time is indeed a great mystery: however I will offer what has been my own definition of time (and space), which I believe is reasonable and sufficient for the purpose of this discussion:

~ Time is the infinite continuum into which events are interpolated

In the same way, Space for me is -

~ The infinite field into which objects are interpolated

Is time an entity that can be harnessed and manipulated? If yes, then i think it will be a strong evidence we live in a simulation.

Going with the above definitions I do not think that real existential time is susceptible to manipulation, however the perception, observation or experience of it is highly subjective and indeed susceptible to manipulation. These are my thoughts only.

Is the expansion of space creating new time?

Real Space does not expand, as it is an infinite field already as I said. What seems to expand are the the positions of the objects within the infinite field that is called space.

is the multiverse theory the answer?

That a multiverse or even infinitverse exists, i take for granted, but this presents even more questions than any answer.

Are we living in a real world that is constantly branching out due to our choices?

In terms of the nature of our individual realities I think this is correct. Perhaps that every single choice leads you to live in a range of happenings on a different dimension of reality created by that choice.

Secondly, what gives light its characteristic speed? Will we ever develop good enough tech to observe the boundaries of our expanding universe (This will depend on us being able to manipulate light)?

This I do not know. . .
However I will say that there are several esoteric arts and sciences by which human beings already transcend and observe the worlds, dimensions, universes and realities. The orthodox sciences disdain these for the most part though, and this is something that will have to evolve and change before mankind grows into the next level of his experience in the universe.

DeepSight:

I have been discussing the idea that we live in a simulated reality for some time: an illusion of sorts.

But, even if true, just how could we ever know such a thing?
There are a number of interesting takes I would like to discuss regarding this.

Let me however open with a quote I picked from another Forum:

"Koukl points out that in order to recognize something as an illusion, two things are required: (1) the presence of a conscious observer who is capable of perception, and (2) the ability to distinguish between what is real and what is illusion.

If there were no conscious observers who can perceive, then it is impossible to know there is an illusion because the non-conscious do not perceive or know anything. So if consciousness was not real there would be no way to perceive that consciousness was just an illusion.If consciousness is required to perceive an illusion, then consciousness cannot itself be an illusion. Similarly, one would have to be able to perceive both the real world and the illusory world in order to know there is a distinction between the two, and to subsequently identify the illusory world as illusory. If all one perceived was the illusion, they would not be able to recognize it as such."

Takers?

Won't the bolded require that the conscious subjects are somehow experiencing the illusionary world through a link from the real world? If the individual in the simulated world is not linked to the real world but is rather ''lab rats in an experiment'' Does this make his self-awareness any less real? Does this make their awareness a quasi-conscious state?

Experience is the key thing, the key barometer.

Everything is an illusion, until it is consciously experienced.

Experience leaves an imprint on consciousness.

The universe, all things evolve by going through experiences.
Each experience adds something ' other' that was not previously there.

A conscious being or mind cannot stand outside of time and space, for the simple reason that it would be devoid of experience. And without the flux of interactive information, there cannot be experience, and there cannot be consciousness.

Sounds confusing, even to me.
But then, it is a deep and confusing subject.

mkmyers45:


Won't the bolded require that the conscious subjects are somehow experiencing the illusionary world through a link from the real world?

Yes, absolutely: it could not but be so - for only a real and conscious being can experience anything. We are therefore tied to the real world always: in my perception, the temporary visor through which we perceive this world is the human body and it is stripped off at death: leaving the conscious being to stand in its evolved reality without the visor of the material plane.

If the individual in the simulated world is not linked to the real world but is rather ''lab rats in an experiment'' Does this make his self-awareness any less real? Does this make their awareness a quasi-conscious state?

It is impossible to have a simulation without a link to that environment causing the simulation.

plaetton:
Experience is the key thing, the key barometer.

Everything is an illusion, until it is consciously experienced.

Whilst I understand what you are trying to convey, you must perhaps be careful with words: for the sentence above is self contradictory. The Blue side of the statement cannot exist at all except within the red side of the statement thereby rendering the statement an incongruity in itself.

Experience leaves an imprint on consciousness.

Sure.

The universe, all things evolve by going through experiences.
Each experience adds something ' other' that was not previously there.

Absolutely.

A conscious being or mind cannot stand outside of time and space, for the simple reason that it would be devoid of experience.

Now, with this and in this we must halt at once and only proceed with tremulous caution: for this is a statement that we may not be qualified to make at all: existing as we do within the bounds of time and space we can have no claim to even faintly understand what an existence outside those bounds may be like: or what sort of consciousness may dwell therein: indeed in my view only the Godhead itself exists on such a plane: or perhaps it is better to say that the Godhead itself is such a plane: whichever the case may be no man may venture to conclude that no sort of consciousness may exist outside time and space: for it is clearly a matter well beyond any creature living in time and space to comment upon: and herein lies the absolute mystery of the ineffable God.

And without the flux of interactive information, there cannot be experience, and there cannot be consciousness.

As I said above: this is a presumptive statement: perhaps we must understand that God being an infinite and an absolute: can be and dwell in a consciousness that is the sum of all infinite experience at once: a single eternal moment of everything.

Interesting discussion.

texanomaly:
Interesting discussion.

How are you Madam?
Merry Christmas and a Fabulous New Year to you!

plaetton:

What is the difference between existential illusion and an economic or systemic one ?

If, from infancy , we are sold the first illusion that resources are scare and must be competed for, then that forms the foundations of our perceptions or worldview, and upon which other existential illusions are constructed.

From this illusion of scarcity, we compel our selves to spend almost 100℅ of our lives struggling to accumulate as much of the so-called scarce resources as possible.
Therefore, our consciousness, our conscious perceptions become limited, unable to expand beyond primitive accumulation.

Now , here is the funny part.
Because we spend so much our lives trying to accumulate, we develop a natural fear of death. We complain that life is too short.
We then create an after-life , eternal life illusion to assuage our fears.
In other words, we create an illusion of time, more time to do something other than primitive accumulation.

This is why heaven is sold as a paradise, with no work, no strife, no economic structure, no usury.

not everyone is afraid of death.....to me death is a transformation....is an important part of life....the issue of heaven or paradise does not entice every believer.....to think i will not die is an illusion that must fail......christian or not...we must all transform


"Death is the only reality"

urheme:





not everyone is afraid of death.....to me death is a transformation....is an important part of life....the issue of heaven or paradise does not entice every believer.....to think i will not die is an illusion that must fail......christian or not...we must all transform


"Death is the only reality"

Very well and very wisely said

DeepSight:

I have been discussing the idea that we live in a simulated reality for some time: an illusion of sorts.

But, even if true, just how could we ever know such a thing?
There are a number of interesting takes I would like to discuss regarding this.

Let me however open with a quote I picked from another Forum:

"Koukl points out that in order to recognize something as an illusion, two things are required: (1) the presence of a conscious observer who is capable of perception, and (2) the ability to distinguish between what is real and what is illusion.

If there were no conscious observers who can perceive, then it is impossible to know there is an illusion because the non-conscious do not perceive or know anything. So if consciousness was not real there would be no way to perceive that consciousness was just an illusion. If consciousness is required to perceive an illusion, then consciousness cannot itself be an illusion. Similarly, one would have to be able to perceive both the real world and the illusory world in order to know there is a distinction between the two, and to subsequently identify the illusory world as illusory. If all one perceived was the illusion, they would not be able to recognize it as such."

Takers?

If i tell you this is my reality... it will make no sense to you...because you will say is an illusion......that madman reality is just an illusion...ok..

ok who will be the independent conscious observer who is capable of perception that will be the umpire between me and you... when i said a pastor prayed for me and i saw a large crocodile walking out of me...or i find my self in my village family house roasting cobwebs....

this is my reality


so i ask you a question in the absence of a conscious observer....what is the illusion

texanomaly:
Interesting discussion.

longest time Ma.

good to have you here.

DeepSight:


Whilst this is very interesting, it still has little to do with the core existential sort of illusion which I am discussing. I would say that what you have referred to is better described as living in a definite reality with false notions about its system and economy which then cause one to invent an imaginary future reality to assuage same.

This is quite different from the existential question of y[b]our entire life as it is already being an illusion: a dream of a sort - a simulation that is in fact not real at all[/b] but only appears so when viewed through the biochemical visor and transmitter that is the human body.

not our entire life but yours alone......you only know that you are not real... i wouldn't know.

i marvel at this statement though.

plaetton:
Experience is the key thing, the key barometer.

Everything is an illusion, until it is consciously experienced.

There are experiences that i have had that you will write off as illusions...

everything cannot be an illusion...you are like.."death is an illusion until it is experienced" .

what you call illusion are my realities.

try again

urheme:



There are experiences that i have had that you will write off as illusions...

everything cannot be an illusion...you are like.."death is an illusion until it is experienced" .

what you call illusion are my realities.

try again

I am sure you have heard many stories , myths and legends about death.
I am sure you have your own ideas about death.
All that you have heard or imagined about death are all illusions , until you experience it.
Same thing with every experience that you haven't had.

urheme:






"Death is the only reality"

Another illusion , a most false and logical fallacy.

How Deepsight salutes you on this logical fallacy is perhaps the biggest mystery of 2016.

texanomaly:
Interesting discussion.

Compliments of the season, my fair Madame.

We have missed you here.

plaetton:


Another illusion , a most false and logical fallacy.

How Deepsight salutes you on this logical fallacy is perhaps the biggest mystery of 2016.

That conclusion was a good argument for your post....death is not an illusion but a reality for your post.....and it still is a reality....we donn't have to experience it to know.

plaetton:


Another illusion , a most false and logical fallacy.

How Deepsight salutes you on this logical fallacy is perhaps the biggest mystery of 2016.

It is the general gist of what he was saying that I found interesting, and also the gamely take on death/; the fact that we all are, as it were, "waiting to transform" into some other form.

There are many realities and Death is not the "only" reality but perhaps he meant to say it is the only certainty.

plaetton:


I am sure you have heard many stories , myths and legends about death.
I am sure you have your own ideas about death.
All that you have heard or imagined about death are all illusions , until you experience it.
Same thing with every experience that you haven't had.

Perhaps I would be putting what you are trying to say better if I said that we cannot really know what an experience would be like unless we have it, and every supposition or imagination of what it may be like would only be just that: a supposition or imagination and never quite the experience.

This is not to say that imaginations are the same thing as the illusion that we discuss here.

DeepSight:


Perhaps I would be putting what you are trying to say better if I said that we cannot really know what an experience would be like unless we have it, and every supposition or imagination of what it may be like would only be just that: a supposition or imagination and never quite the experience.

This is not to say that imaginations are the same thing as the illusion that we discuss here.

What I am saying, which I trust that you fully understand, is that something like death, the cessation of life, what happens at moment of death , and afterwards, cannot be fully explained until an individual experiences the very phenomenon of death.

Everything woven around the phenomenon are simply legends, myths and illusions.

For example, I imagine you as a lanky, tall, dark complexion man with a slightly receding hairline. I imagine you to be somewhat snobbish and introverted , until you reach a level of comfort with people , before you liven up to unleash your WORD SORCERY on hapless souls.
Deepsight is real.
But these are my illusions of Deepsight.

Only the EXPERIENCE of meeting you in person would prove these illusions right or completely wrong.

plaetton:


What I am saying, which I trust that you fully understand, is that something like death, the cessation of life, what happens at moment of death , and afterwards, cannot be fully explained until an individual experiences the very phenomenon of death.

Everything woven around the phenomenon are simply legends, myths and illusions.

For example, I imagine you as a lanky, tall, dark complexion man with a slightly receding hairline. I imagine you to be somewhat snobbish and introverted , until you reach a level of comfort with people , before you liven up to unleash your WORD SORCERY on hapless souls.
Deepsight is real.
But these are my illusions of Deepsight.

Only the EXPERIENCE of meeting you in person would prove these illusions right or completely wrong.

Correction:

Even the idea that Deepsight is real is also illusion.
Deepsight is actually an illusion.
Deepsight is a fake name.

For all we know, anyone of the 7 billion people on Earth could be masquerading as Nairaland Deepsight.
In fact, we cannot even rule out the fact that Deepsight might be posting threads from another planet or Galaxy system.

I mean, his WORD SORCERY is evidence of something spooky and out of this reality.

A lot of fancy words being exchanged here...

plaetton:


I am sure you have heard many stories , myths and legends about death.
I am sure you have your own ideas about death.
All that you have heard or imagined about death are all illusions , until you experience it.
Same thing with every experience that you haven't had.

Wait, in summary what you're saying is that experiences you have'nt had are all illusion.?