Seun ,
A comparison is based on two known conditions. You have to know New York b4 you compare it with Lagos. New York is a well organized city and Lagos is opposite. How about there are no bad roads in New York, could the same thing be said of Lagos?

You are sounding like OBJ who refutes facts and evidence that are against his position. Why would you compare lagos with new york on traffic, but fail to compare lagos with new york on power generation. Traffic in New York is as a result of a metropolis immersed in a tense economic activity where as Lagos is a lawless place where molues block the road to take passengers. Rich people in lagos use generators and everybody is new york uses constant electricity. It seems some Nigerians have accepted poor infrastructural development as a status quo.

I wonder where you get your facts, as in there are jobs every where. this is like a slight on some Nairamembers who graduated in honours but are stll searching for jobs. People who live in glass house should not throw stones.

Nigeria is not at war period and cannot be compared with other war torn countries. Its very difficult to soar like an eagle when you work with turkeys.

Nigeria is failed because we have had rubbish goverments and rubbish people in power.

We should be ahead of the UK. I mean the UK has almost nothing to export and we Nigeria have oil for God's sake yet people cant afford to eat. Or drive on roads without suffering neck ache from bouncing up and down.

The country is a mess those of you with rose tinted Glasses take them off and look at the REAL picture.

this is like a slight on some Nairamembers who graduated in honours but are still searching for jobs.

I've repeatedly adviced people to focus their efforts on self-employment, but they refuse to listen.
In an under-developed country like Nigeria there are always going to be more business opportunities than jobs.
Jobs only appear in the market when there are many entrepreneurs exploiting these business opportunities.
If people start channeling their super-human efforts at job-seeking into self-employment, they will all be employed.

Seun, A comparison is based on two known conditions. You have to know New York before you compare it with Lagos. New York is a well organized city and Lagos is opposite.

The traffic in Lagos is bad. The traffic in New York is bad. For the same reason: heavy population. Simple.
The roads in a city like Abeokuta may be worse than the roads in New York, but they are not congested.

Nigeria is not at war period and cannot be compared with other war torn countries.

Nigeria being a "failed state" is often used as an excuse to start a civil war to divide the country. I'm just preemptively pointing out the far more serious problems of African countries where that has been tried.

But Seun where and how do people start a business with no capital? The state has a duty to provide jobs. I dont want to hear that people should set up their own businesses!

But Seun where and how do people start a business with no capital?

How are people able to browse the Internet with no capital? Everybody has at least a little capital.

The state has a duty to provide jobs

The state has a duty to keep criminals and other enemies of progress under check.
The state doesn't have a duty to create jobs. Moreso the state doesn't even have the ability to create jobs:

To create a job, you need to employ people. In order to employ people, you need to pay them every month. In order to pay people every month, you need to generate the money legitimately - by engaging in business. But engaging in business is not the duty of the government, it's the duty of you and I. If engaging in business is the duty of the government, then we are living in a socialist state. If engaging in business is the government's duty, what is ours?

Politicians, are very cunning. They promise jobs knowing that it's not their duty to provide jobs, so that gullible people will vote for them. Once they get into office, of course, they won't deliver - because they can't.

I don't want to hear that people should set up their own businesses!

Every adult needs to learn to face reality. Putting your head in the sand won't make your problems go away.

Quote
_{this is like a slight on some Nairamembers who graduated in honours but are still searching for jobs.}
^{I've repeatedly adviced people to focus their efforts on self-employment, but they refuse to listen.
In an under-developed country like Nigeria there are always going to be more business opportunities than jobs.
Jobs only appear in the market when there are many entrepreneurs exploiting these business opportunities.
If people start channeling their super-human efforts at job-seeking into self-employment, they will all be employed.}

I wish if you could tell us how to be self employed without a capital. Tell us your story, because I know that even a shoe-maker needs some start up capital to be self employed
Quote
Seun, A comparison is based on two known conditions. You have to know New York before you compare it with Lagos. New York is a well organized city and Lagos is opposite.
The traffic in Lagos is bad. The traffic in New York is bad. For the same reason: heavy population. Simple.
The roads in a city like Abeokuta may be worse than the roads in New York, but they are not congested.
Ans: Lagos traffic is caused by lawlessness and bad roads besides about 80%of new yorkers can afford cars but because there are other ways of transportation, they choose not to. I dont even think that 50% of Lagosians have cars.


Quote
Nigeria is not at war period and cannot be compared with other war torn countries.
Nigeria being a "failed state" is often used as an excuse to start a civil war to divide the country. I'm just preemptively pointing out the far more serious problems of African countries where that has been tried.

Your argument is skewed because a failed state as enumerated by the original poster did not make mention of dividing the country. You could have said that you always contstrue a mere mention of a failed state as a ploy to start a civil war.
you sounded as if nigeria is your papa property. Nobody wants to break up Naija, so long as people will be comfortable ok

In Europe, only 5 out of 1,000 are self employed, compared with 10 out of 1,000 individuals in the United States.

European Union report

Seun:

[b]How are people able to browse the Internet with no capital? Everybody has at least a little capital.[/b]The state has a duty to keep criminals and other enemies of progress under check.
The state doesn't have a duty to create jobs. Moreso the state doesn't even have the ability to create jobs:

To create a job, you need to employ people. In order to employ people, you need to pay them every month. In order to pay people every month, you need to generate the money legitimately - by engaging in business. But engaging in business is not the duty of the government, it's the duty of you and I. If engaging in business is the duty of the government, then we are living in a socialist state. If engaging in business is the government's duty, what is ours?

Politicians, are very cunning. They promise jobs knowing that it's not their duty to provide jobs, so that gullible people will vote for them. Once they get into office, of course, they won't deliver - because they can't.

Every adult needs to learn to face reality. Putting your head in the sand won't make your problems go away.

Hows does having money to browse the internet in some internet cafe constitute having sufficient money to run a successful business.  And you make it sound like there is a serious demand for businesses. 

Hello if people can't even afford to eat 3 meals a day how in the hell will they be able to buy anything or purchase a service?

Once again IT IS THE STATES DUTY to provide  a sufficient level of jobs, Nigeria needs many public services this alone will provide a sea of jobs for people.   It is the [b]states duty to reduce unemployment and its not the case that they can't its a case that they are so greedy spending PUBLIC money they won't!

All the state needs to do is provide the enabling environment for businesses to flourish

The state has no biz in biz

They should keep taxes low,stop subsidies,reduce trade barriers and regulation ,provide a good justice system and security

The public sector in Nigeria is too big,it is the private sector not the public sector that should provide the jobs necessary for development

Doesnt the state have a responsibility to provide public services? If they do this wont it at least provide work for some?

I agree with some of your other points. We can't rely on the private sector to help stabilise our country. Private businesses are there to make a profit not the save the country they are based in

Sure the state must provide public services; health services,education,policing e.t.c but that should not be seen as a way of cutting down unemployment.

One of Nigeria's biggest problems is that the public sector is already bloated

The hallmark of a competent Govt is a slimlinned public sector.

If u think of it,with a populace of 140 million and revenues of about $40 billion per annum,if the Govt were to employ 30% of Nigerians using every single dime they have to pay salaries.Each worker will earn on average $1,000 per year,that is 140,000 naira per year.

My point is the Govt can't make a meaningful dent in the unemployment problem even if they honestly wanted to,they can't solve the problem by employing people.They have to solve it by enabling others employ people

it will actually exacerbate the situation by wasting scarce resources

The Govt cannot and should not attempt to deal with unemployment by providing jobs themselves

Nigeria's biggest problem is corruption not having agencies that employ Nigerians that will in turn spend their earnings in Nigeria. By the way let us not be under illusion that subsidies cause unemployment. Libya is a socialist country, yet it has the highest GDP per capita in Africa. Aramco of Saudi is a governement agency, but very efficient and it produces more barrels of oil than Shell. Is our NNPC efficient? Japan has the biggest financial institution in the world- their postal agency that is not privatized. We have to do away with corruption. the government has to take the lead

na wa oh

Unemployment in each of these nations,Libya and Saudi Arabia, are about 30 percent .I wonder why anyone wants to use these nations as an example we should emulate

Their high per capita is down to the fact that they have massive oil resources with very small populace,in Libya's case 1.5 million

if u think that corruption is not prevalent amongst the Saudi royal family or the Libyan regime,then think again

As for Japan,the postal services is not known to be a massive employer and the Japanese state sector as a whole is far smaller than the Nigerian as a proportion of GDP.As for its public status,check this-[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1826045,00.html
[/url]
Why would there be moves to privatise it if it was better off in the public sector.

It would have been privatised a long time ago if not for political reasons and not economic reasons

I dont agree with privatisation. It causes problems theres no control over it. Its like letting people invade your country and allowing them to take over. Its a recipe for disaster.

Thanks to the "disaster" of privatization, every bus conductor and market women in Nigeria now has a mobile phone. This is in stark contrast with the "glorious" NITEL era when only the rich had phones. (I'm being sarcastic here).

The private sector is a better steward of resources than the public sector. In the public sector, if you don't perform, you can just keep asking for more money. In the private sector, if you don't perform, someone else takes your place.

@ Seun, when will all these blaming the people for the problem of our country stop.
The problem of our country is not with the people, but with the government of this country.
I will say this over and over again, Every country that is great today achieved greatness with 80% government support and 20% private support. How?
Take Nigeria for example due to private sector we now have GSM phones and other things. But how come we are now the 2nd poorest nation in the world They answers are as follows

1   they have to burn diesel which leads to high Tariff

2   The high tax they pay to the Fg which also lead to high tarif

There are other factors that also made the GSM point you gave even moe burden on the people.

Now It is the duty of the government to provide for the citizen either directly or indirectly. We are all shouting private sector this and that, How many people will be willing to invest in a country where there is no security, no light, no good roads and no good political environment. A man said he wants to build a large poultry farm in Benin but he must wait till after the elections because he is not sure Nigeria will see through it. Seun in sec sch days we were thought  the different steps we must take before investing in any place and i bet you Nigeria do not have any of those points.
We are asking the government to provide jobs for the people. They can either do it themselves or invite the private sectors

God help US

The problem of our country is not with the people, but with the government of this country.

Isn't the government made up of people? Yes, the problem of our country is partly with the government. And privatization is the best solution to that. It puts the destiny of the country in the hands of you and I.

Every country that is great today achieved greatness with 80% government support and 20% private support.

Wrong. Politicians are very good at taking credit for the achievements of the private sector i.e. you and I.

how come we are now the 2nd poorest nation in the world?

Unlike some other African countries, we don't have civil war, we don't have famine, we don't have drought. We even have democracy - so even if our government officials are corrupt, we can abuse them without the fear of being killed. How can you honestly say we are the poorest nation in the world? That's completely ridiculous! So we're poorer than countries whose citizens are refugees of war? Countries where adults are dying of hunger? Spare me!

they have to burn diesel which leads to high Tariff

Nigerian businesses can use wind power or solar power, but they choose to use diesel and petrol-powered generators. Do you know why? Because diesel is cheap[b]er[/b], man! Ever wonder why Nigerians don't bother to conserve electricity by specifically buying energy-efficient light bulbs and gadgets. Because electricity is cheap, that's why!

The high tax they pay to the Fg which also lead to high tariff

I'm in support of minimal taxation, which is something only extensive privatization can lead to.

How many people will be willing to invest in a country where there is no security, no light, no good roads

- I would be willing to start a private security firm in a country with no security. It will make a lot of money!
- I would be willing to start an electricity generation plant in a country with no light. It will make a lot of money!
- I would be willing to run a private road construction business in a country with no good roads. Lots of profit!

See? With privatization, I'd be able to do all these things without the government standing in my way. Investment is what creates the so-called infrastructure in the first place, and the private sector can tackle that efficiently. I mean, look at the telecoms sector. Is that not also a form of infrastructure? And it's doing well under private control.

We are asking the government to provide jobs for the people.
They can either do it themselves or invite the private sectors

Look, my dear friend, unemployment is a myth in the absence of minimum wage laws and such. Jobs are available to those who are willing to make themselves useful to others. Self-employment guarantees a job in Nigeria.

A few years ago,it was normal for the Govt to announce the budget for NITEL going into billions of naira every year.Yet to get a line cost u at least 100,000 naira,it used to be a big deal then to have a mobile phone,people will be staring at u if u had one

Now however at no cost to Nigeria,the private sector has taken over and brought down the cost of a line to as little as 1,000 naira.We now have 27 million lines connected

As for funding, the Governor said a lot of interest had been shown by both local and international companies who he said had indicated interest participate in the project. He mentioned organizations like Union Bank of Nigeria (UBN) Plc, United Bank for Africa (UBA) Plc, Zenith International bank Plc, Guaranty Trust Bank Plc, Access Bank Plc, and Standard Trust Bank Plc . Already, the state Government has made a provision of N2.348 billion in the 2005 budget being considered by the State House of Assembly for infrastructural provision as part of its overall contribution to the project. During the budget presentation, Duke said “reputable investors had given firm assurances” of their support and involvement in the project. He was full of praises for President Olusegun Obasanjo and his South African counterpart, Thambo Mbeki for their support to towards the project.

@seun this was copied from a site now i want ou to read the full site
http://www.nigerianmuse.com/nigeriawatch/positivelyNaija/?u=CrossRiver_TINAPA.htm


People are ready to invest but, it is the govt that will create the enabling environment.

point of correction, its a failed people not a nation. nation emopasess its people and the geographyical location. it the people who move the nation forward and if such people are not doing what they ought to do, the nation stood at a still position. you get my drift!!!

This debate is simple to be honest. Look at the characteristics of a failed state, compare it to the current state of Nigeria and then make your own decision. Simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state#Economic_indicators

The term failed state is often used by political commentators and journalists to describe a state perceived as having failed at some of the basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government. In order to make this definition more precise, the following attributes, proposed by the Fund for Peace, are often used to characterize a failed state:

    * loss of physical control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein,
    * erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions,
    * an inability to provide reasonable public services, and
    * an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.

Common characteristics of a failing state include a central government so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory; non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality; refugees and involuntary movement of populations; and sharp economic decline

For me Nigeria ticks more YES than NO. However, I feel reluctant to say we are a failed state.

ElRazur:

The term failed state is often used by political commentators and journalists to describe a state perceived as having failed at some of the basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government. In order to make this definition more precise, the following attributes, proposed by the Fund for Peace, are often used to characterize a failed state:

* loss of physical control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein,
* erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions,
* an inability to provide reasonable public services, and
* an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.

Common characteristics of a failing state include a central government so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory; non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality; refugees and involuntary movement of populations; and sharp economic decline

Based on the above definition Nigeria is not a failed state - there are some unclear definitions such as 'reasonable public services'. Hospitals and schools exist in Nigeria, so does the postal service and rubbish collection in some localities. What may be 'reasonable' for Europe/North America may not be 'reasonable' for Nigeria.

debosky:

Based on the above definition Nigeria is not a failed state - there are some unclear definitions such as 'reasonable public services'. Hospitals and schools exist in Nigeria, so does the postal service and rubbish collection in some localities. What may be 'reasonable' for Europe/North America may not be 'reasonable' for Nigeria.

Hence why I made of mention of how we ticked more YES than NO. As for the unclear definitions, I suppose one can look at what is considered "reasonable" in Nigeria today to find an answer of some kind?

Somalia is a failed state, and on comparison to Nigeria, boy we dey do fine. However, if have to compare likes for likes, Let's say a nation like Ghana, perhaps Nigeria maybe [a big MAYBE] heading towards the path of a failed state.

PS
Damn. We are listed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state#Failed_States_List

I can edit that and include France - does that really mean anything? Who are these 'fund for peace' guys anyways?

Classifications like these mean little in the end - it is the perception of the inhabitants of the country that matters the most, and the attitude/drive that they and their leaders have to improve things.

Let's even look at the definition

A state could be said to "succeed" if it maintains, in the words of Max Weber, a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force within its borders. When this is broken (e.g., through the dominant presence of warlords, paramilitary groups, or terrorism), the very existence of the state becomes dubious, and the state becomes a failed state.

There are paramilitary groups in Spain (ETA), the UK (IRA fragments) amongst others, so why are they not on the list?

I can come up with a list of my own tomorrow, so in that regard being 'listed' or not is of little importance.

You must have missed the joke in there!

My stance all along is that I feel reluctant to label Nigeria a failed state. And for very good reasons too.

If Nigeria is not a failed state then is definately showing indices of a Failed state.

Land of Famine, Gross Human Rights Violations, Stolen Elections and Poverty is re-certified as a “Failed State".

A failed state is most readily identified by the existence of rampant corruption and criminality in the state apparatus, massive human rights violations, rigged elections, predatory elites with protracted monopoly on power, an absence of the rule of law, severe ethnic divisions and sectarianism, deep economic crises and a significant refugee problem caused by political persecution, among other factors.

It is accurate to say that Nigeria’s political institutions have been corrupted to a point where they have become ineffective in performing basic governmental functions.

On every measure of state failure, this can be demonstrated. For instance, security apparatuses (army, police, etc.) are used as private military forces to suppress the citizenry and opposition elements, and prevent the growth of democratic institutions.

Indices of failed state

1. Failure on Human Rights -

the institutions responsible for the protection and promotion of human rights have been mangled beyond recognition. The regime maintains itself in power through brute force and massive repression. Arbitrary arrests, extrajudicial killings, torture and other abusive political persecution practices go on unchecked even today. The past and present regime has consistently interfered in the functioning of judicial institutions and undermined their legitimacy, efficacy and credibility by installing political hacks as judges - el rufai , ribadu, bola ige, ken saro wiwa and thousands more


2 Failure on Health

Nigerians continue to suffer from preventable diseases such as HIV/AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis, and diarrhoeal diseases.


3.Failure on Youth: The Greatest Failure of All

Underfunding of the education establishments and Parents were too poor to pay for their children’s education. Inability of parents to afford basic school supplies such as books, pens and paper

blacksta:

Land of Famine, Gross Human Rights Violations, Stolen Elections and Poverty is re-certified as a “Failed State".
Indices of failed state

1. Failure on Human Rights

2 Failure on Health

3.Failure on Youth: The Greatest Failure of All

I don't think the above indices are an automatic requirement for a failed state. I think that it's a failing state but definitely not a failed state because for the indices you mentioned, they are attempting to do something about it. e.g. - the Youth. It was on this same NL that I read about Delta state government paying Waec fees for students who could not afford it. Our universities (especially the private ones are growing daily). I feel like the failure of the youth occur when they finish with their university education and then have no jobs available to them. Then that's where there is failure. I mean - Zimbabwe is an example of a failed state and we are NOTHING close to that. . . thank God.
As for the famine part, Nigeria's lands are very good for farming but because we are so stuck on monocropping as a means of making money, it's hard to say we have a land of famine. How many people actually farm? All our youths are running to the urban areas looking for jobs.
If Nigeria was a failed state, there would be NO signs of recuperation but with resurging hope, things can get better.

blacksta:

2 Failure on Health

Nigerians continue to suffer from preventable diseases such as HIV/AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis, and diarrhoeal diseases.

You're joking right? People continue to suffer from HIV/AIDS in the US, malaria in the UK and diarrhoeal diseases (E Coli and the likes) in France - are they failed states as well?

The very definition is flawed - Nigeria is nowhere near achieving what would be expected for a 'successful state' but it has not failed - issues exist but they can be solved - till a point of no return is reached (or is imminent) then you cannot call a country a failed state.

i never said Nigeria is a failed state but i said it is showing trends of a failed. The instance you when mentioned about delta state paying fees for its student ( thousand of students out of possible 4 to 5 Million students). Private universities many of them the main indigence cant afford.  Violence in election or election malpractices creates an tense atmosphere.  Coups or civil disobedience are very likely outcomes

We have to be worried about the ongoing situation


" Nigeria is not failed state yet but if things continue like this then we are going to be failed state"

Failing state? 100% Yes. We don't need a soothsayer to tell us that Nigeria is a failing State.

Isn't the government made up of people? Yes, the problem of our country is partly with the government. And privatization is the best solution to that. It puts the destiny of the country in the hands of you and I.

Isn't the government made up of people?

Seun that's not the case in this country you know that. If it were to be the government of the ppl we would not be wasting state funds to have re-run elections, cancellation and other related issues

And privatization is the best solution to that.

I agree with you but the government has not created enabling and sustainable policies that would make SMEs to grow and strive well