Christians believe that after the disobedience and fall of the first Adam, the ONLY WAY ordained by God to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God is by exercising faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12-19): Yet the old testament saints like Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Moses etc and their sincere followers (who lived and died before Jesus arrival) were able to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God without having the opportunity to exercise faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All these people neither had any personal relationship with Jesus nor believed in his crucifixion as a means of atonement for their sins. Yet these people manage to restore their good relationship with God. If this is true, then how could Jesus have said: I am the way and the truth and the life? No one comes to the Father except through me(John 14:6)?In what way has the Old Testament saints passed through Jesus Christ to reach God the Father-when they did not even have any personal relationship with him-? This simply shows that the statement attributed to Jesus in the verse quoted above did not truly come from Jesus’ mouth. How could Jesus have said such statement when he has already informed us that He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). If it was already in the divine plan that Jesus would change his mind about this verse he should have simply said :"IT IS NOT YET TIME FOR THE GENTILES" instead of saying he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.But did Jesus ever prophesy that false statements would be made in his name? Certainly yes! He said: Take heed that no one deceive you. For MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME.(Matthew 24:4-5).

U don't have to accept it, its not meant for u

What do you derive from maligning other people's religion. Don't you read the Quran where prophet Muhammad said To You Your Religion and To Me Mine (Qur'an 109:1-6) .
If you keep finding faults in other people's religion, it's high time you start doubting yours too.

excellent replies to a myopist

Abdulgaffar22:
Christians believe that after the disobedience and fall of the first Adam, the ONLY WAY ordained by God to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God is by exercising faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12-19): Yet the old testament saints like Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Moses etc and their sincere followers (who lived and died before Jesus arrival) were able to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God without having the opportunity to exercise faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All these people neither had any personal relationship with Jesus nor believed in his crucifixion as a means of atonement for their sins. Yet these people manage to restore their good relationship with God. If this is true, then how could Jesus have said: I am the way and the truth and the life? No one comes to the Father except through me(John 14:6)?In what way has the Old Testament saints passed through Jesus Christ to reach God the Father-when they did not even have any personal relationship with him-? This simply shows that the statement attributed to Jesus in the verse quoted above did not truly come from Jesus’ mouth. How could Jesus have said such statement when he has already informed us that He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). If it was already in the divine plan that Jesus would change his mind about this verse he should have simply said :"IT IS NOT YET TIME FOR THE GENTILES" instead of saying he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.But did Jesus ever prophesy that false statements would be made in his name? Certainly yes! He said: Take heed that no one deceive you. For MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME.(Matthew 24:4-5).

May thunder smash ur screen u this terrorist

Abdulgaffar22:
Christians believe that after the disobedience and fall of the first Adam, the ONLY WAY ordained by God to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God is by exercising faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12-19): Yet the old testament saints like Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Moses etc and their sincere followers (who lived and died before Jesus arrival) were able to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God without having the opportunity to exercise faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All these people neither had any personal relationship with Jesus nor believed in his crucifixion as a means of atonement for their sins. Yet these people manage to restore their good relationship with God.

read the bible

Abdulgaffar22:
Christians believe that after the disobedience and fall of the first Adam, the ONLY WAY ordained by God to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God is by exercising faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12-19): Yet the old testament saints like Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Moses etc and their sincere followers (who lived and died before Jesus arrival) were able to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God without having the opportunity to exercise faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All these people neither had any personal relationship with Jesus nor believed in his crucifixion as a means of atonement for their sins. Yet these people manage to restore their good relationship with God. If this is true, then how could Jesus have said: I am the way and the truth and the life? No one comes to the Father except through me(John 14:6)?In what way has the Old Testament saints passed through Jesus Christ to reach God the Father-when they did not even have any personal relationship with him-? This simply shows that the statement attributed to Jesus in the verse quoted above did not truly come from Jesus’ mouth. How could Jesus have said such statement when he has already informed us that He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). If it was already in the divine plan that Jesus would change his mind about this verse he should have simply said :"IT IS NOT YET TIME FOR THE GENTILES" instead of saying he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.But did Jesus ever prophesy that false statements would be made in his name? Certainly yes! He said: Take heed that no one deceive you. For MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME.(Matthew 24:4-5).

Romans 2:12
When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

Those who died before Christ were judged with the law.
The Gentiles also had the law in their hearts so the same applies to them.
And after Christs death, anyone who die without receiving Him will perish.

Junia:


Romans 2:12
When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

Those who died before Christ were judged with the law.
The Gentiles also had the law in their hearts so the same applies to them.
And after Christs death, anyone who die without receiving Him will perish.

in other words, Those who lived and died before Jesus were able to achieve everlasting life in heaven WITHOUT Jesus ?

The patriarchs, through sacrifices with animals, expressed faith in the Lamb of GOD to come, Jesus Christ. The ancients, right from Adam, all knew that one day, a Saviour would come and die the death they deserved as transgressors of the Holy Law of GOD. They also knew that the sacrifices they performed pointed to that Lamb, the Seed of the woman to come. (See Gen. 22:8; Job 19:25).

DoctorAlien:
The patriarchs, through sacrifices with animals, expressed faith in the Lamb of GOD to come, Jesus Christ. The ancients, right from Adam, all knew that one day, a Saviour would come and die the death they deserved as transgressors of the Holy Law of GOD. They also knew that the sacrifices they performed pointed to that Lamb, the Seed of the woman to come. (See Gen. 22:8; Job 19:25).

But before this Saviour came and die for their sins, they make heaven without him right ?

Peacefullove:


in other words, Those who lived and died before Jesus were able to achieve everlasting life in heaven WITHOUT Jesus ?

No .. it was those who obey the law and had faith in God. The law doesn't justify anynoe before God. Therefore the OT people (including Gentiles)who had faith in God made it to Heaven.

Junia:


No .. it was those who obey the law and had faith in God. The law doesn't justify anynoe before God. Therefore the OT people (including Gentiles)who had faith in God made it to Heaven.

Do u know u just proved Jesus is not the ONLY way to heaven ? that also means the concept of original sin is a lie cos it doesnt prevent people from attaining heaven without Jesus dying for them.

then the muslims are right that faith in God is enough to make heaven ?

Peacefullove:


But before this Saviour came and die for their sins, they make heaven without him right ?

Save Moses, Elijah and Enoch, nobody is in Heaven now. We all, starting from Adam, through Abraham, to David and to Mary, and then to the righteous people who died today, will resurrect to immortal life when Christ comes back in the clouds of glory to end this wicked system of things. (See 1 Thess. 4:16-17)

As the holy people of GOD throughout the ages faithfully performed sacrifices, their sins were simply covered. When Christ obtained forgiveness through His blood, their sins were imputed on Christ, and His blood obtained their pardon, because they had faith in Him, and showed that faith by faithfully performing the sacrifices which was commanded to them, till the Seed should come. (See Heb. 10:4; Gal. 3:19)

You have asked a good question, though maliciously. First, you need to know that your notion of the early prophets and friends of God not knowing it having anything to do with Christ is wrong. YAHWEH promised Abraham that a seed of his will save the world and through him mankind will be blessed. That seems is Yahshua the Messiah. Moses also spoke of this Messiah. All the other other prophets did the same.

Now, your question is that Christ wasn't on earth when they died, so they can't be eligible for the salvation Christ brought. You are wrong in believing such. Those prophets believed in him and even wished they could see his coming. Nonetheless, they knew he would redeem them. That's why David said that he believes Christ Won't Leave his soul to rot in Sheol aka grave.


Psalm 16:10

For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.


He said that cos he believed that Christ will come save him even in Sheol. That's why the bible recorded that Christ went to Sheol to preach to the souls there.


1 Peter 3:19

(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol,


What did he preach about? He preached about salvation and how he will resurrect them in the last days. The below verse says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST, which include those he preached to in the grave.


1 Thessalonians 4:19

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Peacefullove:


in other words, Those who lived and died before Jesus were able to achieve everlasting life in heaven WITHOUT Jesus ?

Have you forgotten that he was the same person that granted them the law before coming down to show them the true path? Except if you believe he never existed before coming to earth.

Peacefullove:


But before this Saviour came and die for their sins, they make heaven without him right ?

No one is in heaven. If they were, then why would those dead in Christ need to resurrect according to a verse i quoted above. Everyone dead, from Adam till now are nothing ng but dust and not in heaven. Only Christ made heaven cos he resurrected and became the first born of all.

Peacefullove:


Do u know u just proved Jesus is not the ONLY way to heaven ? that also means the concept of original sin is a lie cos it doesnt prevent people from attaining heaven without Jesus dying for them.

then the muslims are right that faith in God is enough to make heaven ?

You are wrong bro
We have 3 despensations
1. Before the Law 2. Under the law 3. Grace

1. The sinners who died before the law of Moses, Christ preached to them in hell. Those who had faith in God went to Heaven.

2. Those who were under the law and had faith in God and obeyed the law also made it to Heaven. Thus, those who didn't have faith or believe in God didn't make Heaven.

3. And now that Christ has died (Grace period) .. He is the only way to Heaven. If you don't receive Him, forget Heaven

alBHAGDADI:
No one is in heaven. If they were, then why would those dead in Christ need to resurrect according to a verse i quoted above. Everyone dead, from Adam till now are nothing ng but dust and not in heaven. Only Christ made heaven cos he resurrected and became the first born of all.

There are people in Heaven bro. When a believer dies, his spirit ascend to Heaven. When Jesus comes back and blow His trumphet, every dead body will resurrect again and that of the believer's will be glorified. His or her spirit will come back into the glorified body and live in Heaven with Christ.
In 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Paul wrote that, “We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord…..............and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

“I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Philippians 1:23).

From these scriptures, you can actually see that the moment a Christian dies, he or she goes home ( Heaven ).

Junia:


You are wrong bro
We have 3 despensations
1. Before the Law 2. Under the law 3. Grace

1. The sinners who died before the law of Moses, Christ preached to them in hell. Those who had faith in God went to Heaven.


2. Those who were under the law and had faith in God and obeyed the law also made it to Heaven. Thus, those who didn't have faith or believe in God didn't make Heaven.

3. And now that Christ has died (Grace period) .. He is the only way to Heaven. If you don't receive Him, forget Heaven

Case 1 & 2 invalidates Number 3 . if the sons of Adam who inherited Sin and Death. could make heaven without any Jesus dying for their sins, that defeat the purpose of Jesus death and weaken your third claim as saying Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven . if Jesus is the ONLY way no mankind should make everlasting life in heaven until he died for their ADamic Sins

Junia:


There are people in Heaven bro. When a believer dies, his spirit ascend to Heaven. When Jesus comes back and blow His trumphet, every dead body will resurrect again and that of the believer's will be glorified. His or her spirit will come back into the glorified body and live in Heaven with Christ.
In 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Paul wrote that, “We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord…..............and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

“I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Philippians 1:23).

From these scriptures, you can actually see that the moment a Christian dies, he or she goes home ( Heaven ).

gosh! @ bold . you guys attach alot of things to the word spirit . forget Nollywood!!!

When your bible said Jesus died and commit his spirit into his Fathers hand .. am sure you believe his Father lives in heaven , Does that mean he ascend to heaven that same moment ?

Peacefullove:



Case 1 & 2 invalidates Number 3 . if the sons of Adam who inherited Sin and Death. could make heaven without any Jesus dying for their sins, that defeat the purpose of Jesus death and weaken your third claim as saying Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven . if Jesus is the ONLY way no mankind should make everlasting life in heaven until he died for their ADamic Sins

Don't act as a dumb person bro
Jesus made this quote only when He came to the earth.
Meaning it starts from His generation till the end of the world.
So what it actually means is " now that I am on earth, I am the only way to Heaven "

Peacefullove:


gosh! @ bold . you guys attach alot of things to the word spirit . forget Nollywood!!!

When your bible said Jesus died and commit his spirit into his Fathers hand .. am sure his Father lives in heaven , Does that mean he ascend to heaven that same moment ?

He went to hell first

Junia:


Don't act as a dumb person bro
Jesus made this quote only when He came to the earth.
Meaning it starts from His generation till the end of the world.
So what it actually means is " now that I am on earth, I am the only way to Heaven "

john 14:6 NIV

, "I am the way and the truth and the life . No one comes to the Father except through me .”


Jesus claimed he is the Life or Everlasting life , and NO ONE , pls what does NO ONE means to you ?

Junia:


He went to hell first

Father into your hands I commend my spirit
- Luke 23 vs 46 ... If you said the spirit of Jesus goes to hell, Are you telling me his Father is in hell ?

[quote author=Peacefullove post=53904351]

john 14:6 NIV

, "I am the way and the truth and the life . No one comes to the Father except through me .”


Jesus claimed he is the Life or Everlasting life , and NO ONE , pls what does NO ONE means to you

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” ( Galatians 3:8-9 , quoting Genesis 12:3 ). As early as Genesis 3:15 , we see the promise of
a coming Savior, and throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds of promises that the Messiah would “save His people from their sins” ( Matthew 1:21 ; cf. Isaiah 53:5-6 ). Job’s faith was in the fact that he knew that his “Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will
stand upon the earth” ( Job 19:25 ). Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way

Peacefullove:


Father into your hands I commend my spirit
- Luke 23 vs 46 ... If you said the spirit of Jesus goes to hell, Are you telling me his Father is in hell ?

No
Read 1 Peter 3:18–20
Jesus went to hell to preach there

Junia:


There are people in Heaven bro. When a believer dies, his spirit ascend to Heaven. When Jesus comes back and blow His trumphet, every dead body will resurrect again and that of the believer's will be glorified. His or her spirit will come back into the glorified body and live in Heaven with Christ.
In 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Paul wrote that, “We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord…..............and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."


“I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Philippians 1:23).

From these scriptures, you can actually see that the moment a Christian dies, he or she goes home ( Heaven ).

You have swallowed false doctrine for far too long. You have quoted those verses wrongly.

Junia:

No
Read 1 Peter 3:18–20
Jesus went to hell to preach there

there is. nothing like hell in that verse of your bible . Read again , besides that Part says that happens after he was raised NOT while dead.

so my question still stands, Where did Jesus go the moment he commend his spirit to heaven in his Fathers hand ? ( the purpose of the question is to validate ur earlier statement that when a believer dies their spirit go to heaven )

alBHAGDADI:
You have swallowed false doctrine for far too long. You have quoted those verses wrongly.

Thats what you think bro.
Lazarus and the rich man is another example. What were they doing in Abraham's bosom and Hell respectively. Wasn't it their spirits

Peacefullove:


there is. nothing like hell in that verse of your bible . Read again , besides that Part says that happens after he was raised NOT while dead.

so my question still stands, Where did Jesus go the moment he commend his spirit to heaven in his Fathers hand ? ( the purpose of the question is to validate ur earlier statement that when a believer dies their spirit go to heaven )

Lets use Lazarus and the rich man. Was it their imposters in Abraham's bosom and hell respectively. Or their spirits ??