[quote author=Junia post=53904708][/quote]

I didnt ask u if those people belived a Saviour is coming or not. the point is , Can they make heaven Before the Saviour finally saves them ?
or like bible indicates in Isaiah 53 , by his wounds you were healed . Before the saviour is sacrificed are they healed from Adamic Sin to enable them worthy of heaven ? emphasis on " Sacrifice "

Junia:


Lets use Lazarus and the rich man. Was it their imposters in Abraham's bosom and hell respectively. Or their spirits ??

HEHEHEHEHE so u want to run away from the vital turning point of Luke 23 vs 46 . i dont know what u mean by spirit but the description in lazarus and rich MAN is that of MAN ( Humans not some spirits ) , Eyes , fingers , tongue tasting water are all material and physical qualities . its clearly an Human description not spirit

Peacefullove:


john 14:6 NIV

, "I am the way and the truth and the life . No one comes to the Father except through me .”


Jesus claimed he is the Life or Everlasting life , and NO ONE , pls what does NO ONE means to you ?

Have you read john 1:1 to 3[in the beginning was the word(christ)and the word was with God ..........all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made] Christ wasnt wrong when he said he is the only way cos even in the era of law,he was there.who gave the law in the old testament? Who spoke to the faithfuls of old? Nw a time also came when mankind needed a better relationship and then was the prophecy of the coming of christ in the likeness of man made known..then the new testament where he tried letting them understand that he is the only way
In the days of old,they believed in him and that beliece brought faith which saved.nw,having full knowledge also,believe which triggers our faith and hence our salvation
CHRIST TRUELY IS THE ONLY WAY

smileing:

Have you read john 1:1 to 3[in the beginning was the word(christ)and the word was with God ..........all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made] Christ wasnt wrong when he said he is the only way cos even in the era of law,he was there.who gave the law in the old testament? Who spoke to the faithfuls of old? Nw a time also came when mankind needed a better relationship and then was the prophecy of the coming of christ in the likeness of man made known..then the new testament where he tried letting them understand that he is the only way
In the days of old,they believed in him and that beliece brought faith which saved.nw,having full knowledge also,believe which triggers our faith and hence our salvation
CHRIST TRUELY IS THE ONLY WAY

in what sense is he the only way, by believing he died and rose for our sins or just beliveing him ( even the Muslims belive in him ) .

1 John 4:10 says God sent his son as the atonement sacrifice for OUR sins . who are the OUR ? what is the sacrifice ? what is the sin ? are those old testament people not guilty of this sin ? Can they make heaven before the sacrifice is made ?

Peacefullove:


I didnt ask u if those people belived a Saviour is coming or not. the point is , Can they make heaven Before the Saviour finally saves them ?
or like bible indicates in Isaiah 53 , by his wounds you were healed . Before the saviour is sacrificed are they healed from Adamic Sin to enable them worthy of heaven ? emphasis on " Sacrifice "

Did you study the old testament well did u see that there was an atonement for their sins?after which,they bcame clean.nw d atonement s christ who has come nd made the final atonement for us whenever we sin

smileing:

Did you study the old testament well did u see that there was an atonement for their sins?after which,they bcame clean.nw d atonement s christ who has come nd made the final atonement for us whenever we sin

who are the Us ? this is getting interesting , so Jesus didnt die for the whole world ?

Peacefullove:


HEHEHEHEHE so u want to run away from the vital turning point of Luke 23 vs 46 . i dont know what u mean by spirit but the description in lazarus and rich MAN is that of MAN ( Humans not some spirits ) , Eyes , fingers , tongue tasting water are all material and physical qualities . its clearly an Human description not spirit

Yes .. in hell you will feel the same way. When you are in hell you will feel thirsty, you will have eyes etc. Jesus said there will be gnashing of teeth in hell. It tell you that you can these physical qualities in Heaven and hell too. We don't need to talk much about this because the most important thing is receiving Jesus and be born again

Junia:


Yes .. in hell you will feel the same way. When you are in hell you will feel thirsty, you will have eyes etc. Jesus said there will be gnashing of teeth in hell . It tell you that you can these physical qualities in Heaven and hell too. We don't need to talk much about this because the most important thing is receiving Jesus and be born again

gnashing of TEETH , lol .. do spirits have skeletons ?

So people will go to hell with their eyes , tongue and human body , they will even have skeleton ( as evidenced by Teeth ) , junia you need help.


you would find those things in their coffins . lifeless. wake up

Peacefullove:


I didnt ask u if those people belived a Saviour is coming or not. the point is , Can they make heaven Before the Saviour finally saves them ?
or like bible indicates in Isaiah 53 , by his wounds you were healed . Before the saviour is sacrificed are they healed from Adamic Sin to enable them worthy of heaven ? emphasis on " Sacrifice "

They were saved by faith. The OT saint knew about the coming of Jesus therefore they also believed that prophecy and believed that it was only His blood that could wash them wholly. Jesus existed from the beginning.

Peacefullove:


gnashing of TEETH , lol .. do spirits have skeletons ?

So people will go to hell with their eyes , tongue and human body , they will even have skeleton ( as evidenced by Teeth ) , junia you need help.


you would find those things in their coffins . lifeless. wake up

So what about the rich man who was thirsty ?? .. how could he feel he was thirsty ??
And also im not the one who wrote in the Bible that there will be gnashing of teeth. Go and read it yourself

Junia:


They were saved by faith. The OT saint knew about the coming of Jesus therefore they also believed that prophecy and believed that it was only His blood that could wash them wholly. Jesus existed from the beginning.

if they knew @ bold , Has the blood been shed out to cleanse them from their sin that time and make them worthy of heaven ?

Junia:


So what about the rich man who was thirsty ?? .. how could he feel he was thirsty ??
And also im not the one who wrote in the Bible that there will be gnashing of teeth. Go and read it yourself

you are saying nonsense , You earlier assert this men are spirits and it was debunked. what Jesus described is pure Human , a mention of teeth even prove this further . teeth indicates presence of Skeleton.


Now how many people have u seen Dissapered from the coffin into hell with their eyes , tongue and skeleton plus teeths missing in their body ? How many or u mean to tell us Jesus was actually lying ?


your evidence holds no water until u can answer this question above.

Peacefullove:


you are saying nonsense , You earlier assert this men are spirits and it was debunked. what Jesus described is pure Human , a mention of teeth even prove this further . teeth indicates presence of Skeleton.


Now how many people have u seen Dissapered from the coffin into hell with their eyes , tongue and skeleton plus teeths missing in their body ? How many or u mean to tell us Jesus was actually lying ?


your evidence holds no water until u can answer this question above.

I havent seen any. Neither have you too
Certain things are deep and cannot be understood
Lazarus died and the Bible says he was carried to Abraham's bosom. Whether it was his body that was carried or his spirit, i cannot tell.

Peacefullove:


if they knew @ bold , Has the blood been shed out to cleanse them from their sin that time and make them worthy of heaven ?

They didnt need to see Him shed His blood. They believed in something that was coming to happen in the future and their faith was credited to them as righteousness. Because they believed, what He was about to do had effect in their lives though He wasn't dead yet.

Junia:



I havent seen any. Neither have you too
Certain things are deep and cannot be understood
Lazarus died and the Bible says he was carried to Abraham's bosom. Whether it was his body that was carried or his spirit, i cannot tell.

Good @ bold. so next time to bring up Lazarus and Rich man story to explain what spirit is. its either the story doesnt actually happen or Jesus Lied.

one must be true

Peacefullove:


Good @ bold. so next time to bring up Lazarus and Rich man story to explain what spirit is. its either the story doesnt actually happen or Jesus Lied.

one must be true

It happened ... Jesus was perfect

Junia:


They didnt need to see Him shed His blood. They believed in something that was coming to happen in the future and their faith was credited to them as righteousness. Because they believed, what He was about to do had effect in their lives though He wasn't dead yet.

Does their Faith make them FREE from Their Sins ?

Junia:


It happened ... Jesus was perfect

Oh, it happened , why then is it that such has never happened in your eyes? .

Peacefullove:


Does their Faith make them FREE from Their Sins ?

Jesus paid the price for their sins
Romans 3:25
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

Therefore those who had faith in God made Heaven because God knew Jesus would come and pay the price for the sins they committed

Peacefullove:


Oh, it happened , why then is it that such has never happened in your eyes? .

I am a living being. I don't see the spiritual world

Junia:


I am a living being. I don't see the spiritual world

and u think they have skeletons in the spiritual world Man ? and they are thirsty too ... imagine the angels getting thirsty for Material water . LMAO they must be humans then

Junia:


Jesus paid the price for their sins
Romans 3:25
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

Therefore those who had faith in God made Heaven because God knew Jesus would come and pay the price for the sins they committed

seriously shaking my head for u

and they Make heaven before the PRICE WAS PAID right ?

went to heaven on credit ?

Peacefullove:


seriously shaking my head for u

and they Make heaven before the PRICE WAS PAID right ?

went to heaven on credit ?

Its God being merciful unto them. Our righteousness cannot make Heaven because we aint perfect and God is. Jesus' blood is what makes us perfect in the sight of God because it washes all our sins. God is sovereign, He does what pleases Him.

Peacefullove:


and u think they have skeletons in the spiritual world Man ? and they are thirsty too ... imagine the angels getting thirsty for Material water . LMAO they must be humans then

Angels dont get thirsty. But for humans who die, the Bible makes it clear that we will have a new body. Our bodies will be resurrected again. But this body will not have the same characteristics of the earthly body. There will be many differences

Junia:


Angels dont get thirsty.

it means spirits dont get thirsty . automatic disqualification for your claim that the characters Lazarus and Rich man are spirits

But for humans who die, the Bible makes it clear that we will have a new body. Our bodies will be resurrected again. But this body will not have the same characteristics of the earthly body. There will be many differences

u are only putting urselve in more trouble ! Since the Rich man get thirsty , tell me that his Body has been ressurected ? has the Resurrection occur ?

Junia:


Its God being merciful unto them. Our righteousness cannot make Heaven because we aint perfect and God is. Jesus' blood is what makes us perfect in the sight of God because it washes all our sins. God is sovereign, He does what pleases Him.

now @ bold , if Jesus blood is what brought perfection , logically none of this old testatement people then is capable of making heaven cos the blood has not been shed and the Price paid to make them perfect, gerrit ?

Abdulgaffar22:
Christians believe that after the disobedience and fall of the first Adam, the ONLY WAY ordained by God to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God is by exercising faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12-19): Yet the old testament saints like Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Moses etc and their sincere followers (who lived and died before Jesus arrival) were able to gain salvation, righteousness and reconciliation back to God without having the opportunity to exercise faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All these people neither had any personal relationship with Jesus nor believed in his crucifixion as a means of atonement for their sins. Yet these people manage to restore their good relationship with God. If this is true, then how could Jesus have said: I am the way and the truth and the life? No one comes to the Father except through me(John 14:6)?In what way has the Old Testament saints passed through Jesus Christ to reach God the Father-when they did not even have any personal relationship with him-? This simply shows that the statement attributed to Jesus in the verse quoted above did not truly come from Jesus’ mouth. How could Jesus have said such statement when he has already informed us that He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). If it was already in the divine plan that Jesus would change his mind about this verse he should have simply said :"IT IS NOT YET TIME FOR THE GENTILES" instead of saying he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.But did Jesus ever prophesy that false statements would be made in his name? Certainly yes! He said: Take heed that no one deceive you. For MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME.(Matthew 24:4-5).

No one made it to the heaven where God reside not even Elijah until Jesus died. Jesus is the way to heaven where God reside.

When we talk of heaven, there are different heavens occupied by other spirit beings. The heaven of God is where it is reported that Satan wanted to ascend to before he was cast out.

When you are born again you are granted access to this heaven by your acceptance of Jesus who is sited at the right hand of the father.

Peacefullove:


now @ bold , if Jesus blood is what brought perfection , logically none of this old testatement people then is capable of making heaven cos the blood has not been shed and the Price paid to make them perfect, gerrit ?

Yes from a human perspective what you are saying is right. We can actually say those people were on hold from a human perspective.
Its like giving your phone to someone knowing that you will receive some from someone else in some years later.
So though Jesus has not died yet .. God has already put in place that he will come and die therefore He didnt punish those people for their sin. So in God's sight, Christ has paid it in advance for this people even before He appeared on earth.
And these people didnt make it to the Heaven where God Himself is. There are different levels of Heaven. All of the OT saints except Enoch and Elijah actually went to Abraham's bosom.

Peacefullove:


it means spirits dont get thirsty . automatic disqualification for your claim that the characters Lazarus and Rich man are spirits





u are only putting urselve in more trouble ! Since the Rich man get thirsty , tell me that his Body has been ressurected ? has the Resurrection occur ?

One clue that people in hell have a body of some kind is Jesus’ account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 . The rich man in hell had the ability to feel “torment” and
“agony” (verses 23–25), the ability to see and speak (verses 23–24), and a “tongue” that he wanted cooled (verse 24). Since this story is set before the resurrection on the last day, it seems that those now in hell exist in an “intermediate” state; many theologians believe this to include a “spiritual body” of some type— or perhaps the spirit takes on some of the attributes of the body it inhabited for some time before the actual resurrection on the last day.

Junia:


Yes from a human perspective what you are saying is right. We can actually say those people were on hold from a human perspective.
Its like giving your phone to someone knowing that you will receive some from someone else in some years later.
So though Jesus has not died yet .. God has already put in place that he will come and die therefore He didnt punish those people for their sin. So in God's sight, Christ has paid it in advance for this people even before He appeared on earth.

Bro I can give my phone to someone and the person am expecting to give me another can dissapoint me . it. happens .

whats my point ? the idea of Christ has paid it in advance defeats FREEWILL of Jesus himself , you are telling us he is a robot programmed for something. not at all , last I checked he battled to give up his life even saying NOT my will but yours .


lets say he gave in since he has freewill and failed to do the task , so what happens . its not going to be funny with this your theory, I guess they would all be deported back to earth or what .

Junia:


One clue that people in hell have a body of some kind is Jesus’ account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 . The rich man in hell had the ability to feel “torment” and
“agony” (verses 23–25), the ability to see and speak (verses 23–24), and a “tongue” that he wanted cooled (verse 24). Since this story is set before the resurrection on the last day, it seems that those now in hell exist in an “intermediate” state; many theologians believe this to include a “spiritual body” of some type— or perhaps the spirit takes on some of the attributes of the body it inhabited for some time before the actual resurrection on the last day.

You have only successfully tell us resurrection is an hoax ! of what purpose is the resurrection when they had a Body already ? uhm .

Peacefullove:


Bro I can give my phone to someone and the person am expecting to give me another can dissapoint me . it. happens .

whats my point ? the idea of Christ has paid it in advance defeats FREEWILL of Jesus himself , you are telling us he is a robot programmed for something. not at all , last I checked he battled to give up his life even saying NOT my will but yours .


lets say he gave in since he has freewill and failed to do the task , so what happens . its not going to be funny with this your theory, I guess they would all be deported back to earth or what .

He died for everyone bro
The OT saints who died went to Abraham's bosom. When Jesus died, He went there and took them to Heaven. If he didn't die, these people would have remained in Abrahams bosom forever without making the Heaven where God Himself is.