Empiree:
Stories for Jesuit. Bring me another Quran. Simple isn't?

I asked about Hafs and warsh, can you explain that?

tintingz:
I asked about Hafs and warsh, can you explain that?

thought we talked about these?

Empiree:
thought we talked about these?

Didn't pay attention to it now I'm doing.

Their Arabic text are kind of different, even their meanings are some how different, then why do you have problem with bible versions when hafs and warsh are like versions of Quran.

Allah (SWT) says:

"And with truth have We revealed it, and with truth did it come; and We have not sent you (Prophet Muhammad SAW) but as the giver of good news and as a warner.

And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.

Say[b]: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces, making obeisance when it is recited to them.
[/b]
And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled.

And they fall down on their faces weeping, and it adds to their humility."
(Qur’an 17:105-109)

The above verses clearly shows the responsibilities of the Prophet (SAW), and the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in portions, and there is no evidence it was gathered as a whole book by the Prophet (SAW). The responsibility of gathering the Qur'an between two bindings was not given to the Prophet (SAW), it fell on the rightly guided successor, Abu Bakr (RA) in conjunction with noble companions of the Prophet (SAW).

sino:
Allah (SWT) says:

"And with truth have We revealed it, and with truth did it come; and We have not sent you (Prophet Muhammad SAW) but as the giver of good news and as a warner.

And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.

Say[b]: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces, making obeisance when it is recited to them.
[/b]
And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled.

And they fall down on their faces weeping, and it adds to their humility."
(Qur’an 17:105-109)

The above verses clearly shows the responsibilities of the Prophet (SAW), and the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in portions, and there is no evidence it was gathered as a whole book by the Prophet (SAW). The responsibility of gathering the Qur'an between two bindings was not given to the Prophet (SAW), it fell on the rightly guided successor, Abu Bakr (RA) in conjunction with noble companions of the Prophet (SAW).

Written in portion is not an issue but scattering around, novelist write their stories in portion before turning it into books so it's not a new thing.

Prophet Muhammad must have compiled the Quran into a book, the idea that it was not compiled during his time sounds ridiculous.

Infact the Quran called itself "book" many times.

We have certainly sent down to you a Book in which is your mention. Then will you not reason?(Quran 21:10)

O Muhammad, warn them about that Day when We shall call a witness from every nation to testify against it, and We shall call you O Muhammad to testify against your people: that is why We have sent down to you this Book (The Qur'an) to explain everything - a guide, a blessing and good news for Muslims.(Quran 16:89)

Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Rabb with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts.(Quran 6:114)

tintingz:
Written in portion is not an issue but scattering around, novelist write their stories in portion before turning it into books so it's not a new thing.

Prophet Muhammad must have compiled the Quran into a book, the idea that it was not compiled during his time sounds ridiculous.

Infact the Quran called itself "book" many times.

We have certainly sent down to you a Book in which is your mention. Then will you not reason?(Quran 21:10)

O Muhammad, warn them about that Day when We shall call a witness from every nation to testify against it, and We shall call you O Muhammad to testify against your people: that is why We have sent down to you this Book (The Qur'an) to explain everything - a guide, a blessing and good news for Muslims.(Quran 16:89)

Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Rabb with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts.(Quran 6:114)

You like to argue sha...

The verses I presented was about revelation being in portion, and narrations about writing these revelations as they were revealed abound. But there is no evidence that the Prophet (SAW) gathered the writings between two bindings or asked anyone to do this, get it?! The Prophet (SAW) was not using the written copies, he (SAW) memorized as the revelation comes. The scribes under the Prophet's supervision and others wrote the Qur'an on different materials, and Abu Bakr (RA) in conjunction with other companions, then gathered these writings between two bindings.

I had already stated that the Qur'an was called a book even before the revelation was completed, that does not prove anything...A writer who is still writing, would refer to his work as a book, hence he can make statement like "I'm writing a book" "I'm yet to publish my book" "I just finished writing a book" etc.

It is a simple and straightforward matter.

sino:

You like to argue sha...

The verses I presented was about revelation being in portion, and narrations about writing these revelations as they were revealed abound. But there is no evidence that the Prophet (SAW) gathered the writings between two bindings or asked anyone to do this, get it?! The Prophet (SAW) was not using the written copies, he (SAW) memorized as the revelation comes. The scribes under the Prophet's supervision and others wrote the Qur'an on different materials, and Abu Bakr (RA) in conjunction with other companions, then gathered these writings between two bindings.

I had already stated that the Qur'an was called a book even before the revelation was completed, that does not prove anything...A writer who is still writing, would refer to his work as a book, hence he can make statement like "I'm writing a book" "I'm yet to publish my book" "I just finished writing a book" etc.

It is a simple and straightforward matter.

The use of English said "We sent down to you a book" "We revealed this book". This shows it was compiled during Prophet Muhammad (SA)'s time for Allah(SWT) to declare it a book in details.

Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Rabb with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts.(Quran 6:114)

The evidence is there in the Quran itself.

How many novelist do you see writing a story in portions without compiling them?

tintingz:
The use of English said "We sent down to you a book" "We revealed this book". This shows it was compiled during Prophet Muhammad (SA)'s time for Allah(SWT) to declare it a book in details.

Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Rabb with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts.(Quran 6:114)

The evidence is there in the Quran itself.

How many novelist do you see writing a story in portions without compiling them?

@bold, there are authors who get their works published after their death, people found their manuscripts, gather them and then publish. Moreover, the Prophet (SAW) is not the author of the Qur'an, his responsibility was to convey the message completely of which he did perfectly.

You should read more about the revelation of the Qur'an.

sino:


@bold, there are authors who get their works published after their death, people found their manuscripts, gather them and then publish. Moreover, the Prophet (SAW) is not the author of the Qur'an, his responsibility was to convey the message completely of which he did perfectly.

You should read more about the revelation of the Qur'an.

Authors compiled their works in a file, now that we have computer, it is saved in the system. Authors don't scatter their works around, it is not professional.

And secondly, the Prophet (SA) was on sick bed that He even ordered for a pen and paper to write a document, this alone shows there are still time for him to compiled the Quran.

tintingz:
Authors compiled their works in a file, now that we have computer, it is saved in the system. Authors don't scatter their works around, it is not professional.

I see...

tintingz:

And secondly, the Prophet (SA) was on sick bed that He even ordered for a pen and paper to write a document, this alone shows there are still time for him to compiled the Quran.

Okay, but there is no evidence that states he did what Abu Bakr (RA) did before his death!

tintingz:
Authors compiled their works in a file, now that we have computer, it is saved in the system. Authors don't scatter their works around, it is not professional.

And secondly, the Prophet (SA) was on sick bed that He even ordered for a pen and paper to write a document, this alone shows there are still time for him to compiled the Quran.

# Excellent observations.

# In fact, according several narrations, the last surah was al-Maidah, and the last verse from it was revealed at the end of the prophet's last hajj. There was a six months period between that time to his death. Nabi only sick for 4 days. Absolutely, if Quran was scattered, he has enough time to gather the pieces together.

# Prophet had special scribes of Quran. No verse is revealed except he ask them to write it down. And observe: sometimes a surah or another verse might be revealed in between an ongoing sura or verse. He used to guide his scribes where/how to put or merge. This is orderliness.

# And there are also narrations that Jubril used to come once in a year to review Quran with Nabi. He however came twice in the last year of prophet on earth. Likewise, Nabi used to review Quran with his scribes. Scribes writing information down for 23 years in an instructed styles and manner with review every now and then, please people of intellect, once revelation stops, will that not have gathered as a complete book?

# All the irrational stories and bogus narrations that Ahlu Sunnah conjure up about compilation of Quran were intended to give credit to those whom they loved dearly. Obviously, such task (compilation of Quran) is the biggest task.

* You can imagine a story that goat/sheep eat certain page of Quran that Aisha kept under her bed. Or Uthman during his purported compilation saying there are some surahs or ayah not arranged by the Prophet before he died Or Abdullah Ibn Abbas several opposition to certain ayah as it is being recited where he would swear by Allah that, that was not the way it was revealed.

AlBaqir:


# Excellent observations.

# In fact, according several narrations, the last surah was al-Maidah, and the last verse from it was revealed at the end of the prophet's last hajj. There was a six months period between that time to his death. Nabi only sick for 4 days. Absolutely, if Quran was scattered, he has enough time to gather the pieces together.

# Prophet had special scribes of Quran. No verse is revealed except he ask them to write it down. And observe: sometimes a surah or another verse might be revealed in between an ongoing sura or verse. He used to guide his scribes where/how to put or merge. This is orderliness.

# And there are also narrations that Jubril used to come once in a year to review Quran with Nabi. He however came twice in the last year of prophet on earth. Likewise, Nabi used to review Quran with his scribes. Scribes writing information down for 23 years in an instructed styles and manner with review every now and then, please people of intellect, once revelation stops, will that not have gathered as a complete book?

# All the irrational stories and bogus narrations that Ahlu Sunnah conjure up about compilation of Quran were intended to give credit to those whom they loved dearly. Obviously, such task (compilation of Quran) is the biggest task.

* You can imagine a story that goat/sheep eat certain page of Quran that Aisha kept under her bed. Or Uthman during his purported compilation saying there are some surahs or ayah not arranged by the Prophet before he died Or Abdullah Ibn Abbas several opposition to certain ayah as it is being recited where he would swear by Allah that, that was not the way it was revealed.

Allah (SWT) says:

And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do. (Surah Yunus: 36)

Firstly, the ahlu Sunnah believe that the Qur'an was completely written down under the supervision of the Prophet (SAW) before his death.

Secondly, the correct position on the last verse to be revealed is {And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allâh. …} [2: 281]. and it was 9 days before the death of the Prophet (SAW).

Thirdly, I had asked you if the Prophet (SAW) while reviewing the Qur'an with Jubril (AS), used the written copies of the Qur'an? If you agree that he never used such, then it gives credence to the fact that memorization was the primary source of preservation.

Fourthly, You have yet to bring any evidence that the Prophet (SAW) ever did what Abu Bakr (RA) did after his death. You believe the narrations that he had scribes and they wrote under his supervision, but when it comes to the narration about gathering the Qur'an carried out by Abu Bakr (RA), then it becomes difficult to believe, why?! Because you have been trained to hate these great men of Islam, and you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge their efforts in preserving the Qur'an.

Let me give you an example of how the Qur'an was written by one of the scribes:

Zaid bin Thabit, one of the chief scribes relates: "I used to write down the revelation for the Holy Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. When the revelation came to him he felt intense heat and drops of perspiration used to roll down his body like pearls. When this state was over I used to fetch a shoulder bone or a piece of something else. He used to go on dictating and I used to write it down. When I finished writing the sheer weight of transcription gave me the feeling that my leg would break and I would not be able to walk anymore. Anyhow when I finished writing, he would say, 'Read!' and I would read it back to him. If there was an omission or error he used to correct it and then let it be brought before the people."

(Mu'jam Al-Tabarani Al-Awst, Hadith 1913. Dar al-Haramain, Cairo, 1415 AH Authenticated by Al-Haithmi in Majma’ Al-Zawaid 8/257, Hadith 13938)

Fifthly, All issues concerning the preservation of the Qur'an has been adequately dealt with, whether you like it or not, these great men, the companions of the Prophet played significant roles, I wonder why you are not even following what your Shi'a people had claimed that Ali (RA) was the first to compile the Qur'an after the death of the Prophet (SAW)?!

Finally, you claim that the stories are bogus in other words, they are fabricated, you are yet to prove fabrication for any of the narrations, as well as prove the Prophet (SAW) did what Abu Bakr (RA) did before his death. Also, I wonder why no one not even Ali (RA) or some of the ahl-l-bayt claim that the Qur'an was already compiled between two bindings by the Prophet (SAW) when Abu Bakr (RA) wanted to do so, I have not seen a single report that is in contrary to the fact that the Qur'an was gathered between two binding by Abu Bakr (RA). Again, Ali (RA) used the same Qur'an as compiled by Uthman (RA), Ali (RA) never complained, rather he commended the efforts of his predecessors!

Be like Ali (RA), stop being like the enemy of Ali (RA). Ali (RA) praised his predecessors and they collaborated on the preservation of the Qur'an.

‘Ali said, “Do not speak of ‘Uthman anything but good because by Allah, whatever he did concerning the Masahif he did in our presence. He asked us, ‘What do you say regarding these recitations for it has reached me that some say to the others, ‘our recitation is better than yours’ even though this takes one towards disbelief?’ We said to him, ‘what is your opinion?’ He said, ‘I see that we should make all people recognize one Mushaf then there will be no difference or discord.’ We said, ‘An excellent proposal.’” (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 62. Classified as Sahih by Dr. Wa’iz)

Some info to look on


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBUhCG3Fbck

AlBaqir:


# Excellent observations.

# In fact, according several narrations, the last surah was al-Maidah, and the last verse from it was revealed at the end of the prophet's last hajj. There was a six months period between that time to his death. Nabi only sick for 4 days. Absolutely, if Quran was scattered, he has enough time to gather the pieces together.

# Prophet had special scribes of Quran. No verse is revealed except he ask them to write it down. And observe: sometimes a surah or another verse might be revealed in between an ongoing sura or verse. He used to guide his scribes where/how to put or merge. This is orderliness.

# And there are also narrations that Jubril used to come once in a year to review Quran with Nabi. He however came twice in the last year of prophet on earth. Likewise, Nabi used to review Quran with his scribes. Scribes writing information down for 23 years in an instructed styles and manner with review every now and then, please people of intellect, once revelation stops, will that not have gathered as a complete book?

Obviously the sahih Hadith below strengthen the submission above:

Imam Tirmidhi documents:

Narrated Qatadah: that Anas bin Malik said: "Four gathered the Qur'an during the time of the Messenger of Allah(s), all of them are from the Ansar: Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid." I said to Anas: "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said: "One of my uncles."

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)


English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3794
Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4163
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49

DirewolfofStark:
Now we know the English translations of the Koran differ in style of writing so the Muslims tell us the Koran is basically useless in any other language but arabic and claim there is only one Arabic Koran.
What do you say if I tell you that claim is false and that there are different Koran? In fact, there are FIVE different versions of the Koran, all of them in arabic and all of them have textual differences and variances.
NUMBER 1
The Koran compiled by the Transmitter Hafs, who is Hafs ibn Suleyman ibn Al-Mugheerah Al-Asadi Al-Kuufi (d.
180H):
His Qiraa'ah named Hafs from 'Aasim is the most popular reading of the Quran in the world today, except for some parts of
Africa. Hafs was officially adopted by Egypt in 1924. His chain from 'Aasim: He heard from 'Aasim ibn Abu Najud Al-Kuufi (d. 128H) who
was Taabi'i, i.e, among the generation following the Sahaabah, who heard from Abu Abdur-Rahman Abdullah ibn Habib As-Sulami, who heard
from Uthman ibn Affan and Ali ibn Abi Talib and Zayd ibn Thaabit and Ubayy ibn Ka'b, who heard from the Prophet.
NUMBER 2
The Transmitter Duuri, is Abu 'Amr Hafs ibn Umar ibn Abdul- Aziz ibn Subhan Ad-Duuri Al-Baghdaadi (d. 246H):
His Qiraa'ah named Duuri from Abu 'Amr is popular in parts of Africa like Somalia, Sudan as well as in other parts. His chain of from Abu 'Amr:
He heard from Abu Muhammad Yahya ibn Mubarak ibn Mugheerah Yazidiyy (d. 202H), who heard from Abu 'Amr Zuban ibn 'Ala Maziniyy Al Busriyy (d.154H), who heard from the Qiraa'aat from Sahaabis Ali and Uthman and Abu Musa and Umar and Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Zayd ibn Thaabit, who heard from the Prophet.
NUMBER 3
The Transmitter Warsh, who is Abu Saeed Uthman ibn Saeed Al-Misri, nicknamed Warsh, (d. 197H):
HIs Qiraa'ah named Warsh from Naafi' is popular in North Africa.
His chain from Naafi': He heard from Naafi' ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Abu Nu'aim Al-Madani (d. 169H), who heard from Abu Ja'far Yazid ibn Al-
Qa'qaa' and Abu Dawud Abdur-Rahman ibn Hurmuz Al-A'raj and Shaybah ibn Nisah Al-Qaadhi and Abu Abdullah Muslim ibn Jundub Al-Hudhali and Abu Rawh Yazid ibn Ruman, who heard from Abu Hurairah and Ibn Abbaas and Abdullah ibn 'Ayyaash ibn Abi Rabii'ah, who
heard from Ubayy ibn Ka'b, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).
NUMBER 4
The Transmitter Suusi:
His Qiraa'ah named Suusi from Abu 'Amr is also found around the world in small parts and it is popular with the Sufis.
NUMBER 5
The Transmitter Qaaluun, who is Imaam Qaaluun:
His Qiraa'ah named Qaaluun from Naafi' is popular in places like Libya in Africa. His chain from Naafi':
He heard from Naafi' ibn Abdur- Rahman ibn Abu Nu'aim Al-Madani (d. 169H), who heard from Abu Ja'far Yazid ibn Al-
Qa'qaa', who heard from Abdullah ibn Abbaas and Abu Hurairah, who heard from Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Zayd ibn Thaabit,
who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).
Most muslims don't have good or reasonable arguments to explain why there should be textual variations in these five different qurans which are all written in the same language.

Do you even know what Qira'a means? Or what your above post is talking about? I even thought you wanted to prove there are five different versions of the Qur'an.

AlBaqir:



Obviously the sahih Hadith below strengthen the submission above:

Imam Tirmidhi documents:

Narrated Qatadah: that Anas bin Malik said: "Four gathered the Qur'an during the time of the Messenger of Allah(s), all of them are from the Ansar: Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid." I said to Anas: "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said: "One of my uncles."

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)


English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3794
Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4163
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49

Well, this narration did not state that these 4 companions (RA) mentioned, did what AbuBakr or Uthman (RA) had done.

Anyways to follow your submissions, so the Qur'an was gathered during the life of the Prophet (SAW), I don't think anyone had a problem with this, and one of those who gathered the Qur'an was Zaid bin Thabit (RA), who is one of the trusted scribe of the Prophet (SAW), hence his opinion on what AbuBakr and Uthman (RA) did would be sacrosanct.

Here is what Zaid bin Thabit said after he made comparison between the manuscript made under ‘Uthman and the the ones made under Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with them all-:

“I compared the Mushaf with those manuscripts; they did not differ in anything.” (Mushkil al-Athar, Hadith 2645)

So there is absolutely no problem, it is still the same Qur'an revealed to the Prophet (SAW), in arrangement of chapters and verses!

For the avoidance of doubt, the understanding of what Abu Bakr and Uthman (RA) did, here is what Ali (RA) had to say:

Ali (RA) said;

‘Concerning Musahif (codices) the greatest reward will be for Abu Bakr. May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr for; he is the first one to gather (the Book of Allah) between two bindings.’ (Ibn Abu Dawud’s Al-Masahif 1/16-20 Hadith 8-12)

Al-Suyuti quoted and authenticated it in Al-Ittiqan 1/144 Section 18 calling it Hasan.

The bold above has a significance, since there happens to be a narration that indicates this important information:

"We said: ‘O Messenger of Allah! Is there anyone greater than us in earning reward, we believed you and followed you.’ He said: “And what is there that to stops you from it while the Messenger of Allah is amongst you and comes to you with the revelation from the heavens? In fact, there will come a people after you, whom the book will reach [only] in two bindings. They will believe in it and follow whatever is in; they are greater in reward than you.” (Al-Bukhari, Khalaq Af’al al-‘Ibad, Dar al-M’arif al-Saudia, Riyadh, 1398 AH vol.1 p.88 Classified as Sahih by Albani in Silsala Sahiha No. 3310)

Ali (RA) the fourth caliph had this words to say about the activities of his predecessor with respect to the Qur'an:

‘Ali said, “Do not speak of ‘Uthman anything but good because by Allah, whatever he did concerning the Masahif he did in our presence. He asked us, ‘What do you say regarding these recitations for it has reached me that some say to the others, ‘our recitation is better than yours’ even though this takes one towards disbelief?’ We said to him, ‘what is your opinion?’ He said, ‘I see that we should make all people recognize one Mushaf then there will be no difference or discord.’ We said, ‘An excellent proposal.’” (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 62. Classified as Sahih by Dr. Wa’iz)

sino:


Well, this narration did not state that these 4 companions (RA) mentioned, did what AbuBakr or Uthman (RA) had done.

# The Hadith is more than enough for a prove that Quran was gathered in full at the time of Nabi, and never in tatters and pieces (to the fact that goat eat some parts or they were looking for other parts here and there) that your history bogusly claimed.

# You know me, I don't follow the fantasy of Abubakr or Uthman's compilation for if truly it did happened, then they recompiled Quran against what is already on ground.

sino:

Anyways to follow your submissions, so the Qur'an was gathered during the life of the Prophet (SAW), I don't think anyone had a problem with this, and one of those who gathered the Qur'an was Zaid bin Thabit (RA), who is one of the trusted scribe of the Prophet (SAW), hence his opinion on what AbuBakr and Uthman (RA) did would be sacrosanct.

Here is what Zaid bin Thabit said after he made comparison between the manuscript made under ‘Uthman and the the ones made under Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with them all-:

“I compared the Mushaf with those manuscripts; they did not differ in anything.” (Mushkil al-Athar, Hadith 2645)

So there is absolutely no problem, it is still the same Qur'an revealed to the Prophet (SAW), in arrangement of chapters and verses!

# Unfortunately, ONLY Zaid Ibn Thaabit was given the task of (re)compiling the Qur'an by Abubakr, and the latter claimed "We (i.e Abubakr and Umar) do not find fault in you (i.e Zaid). Meaning nobody else was ever consulted despite the fact that those who have better knowledge of Quran were very much alive. Is this not a big conspiracy?

# If there is/was no difference between the " recompilation" of Abubakr and Uthman, why the need of Uthman to "re-recompiled" after using Abubakr's (re)compilation? Did he wanna claim credit for a work of somebody else ni?

# Whatever Zaid (and allegedly Imam Ali) said, is 100% contradictory in front of for example another Quran expert, Abdullah Ibn Abbas who argued that there is an error of the scribe in Qur'an. He confirmed a particular ayah was not written as Allah revealed it, and even sworn in another area. Unfortunately, those "errors" are still present till date.

# Please think Mr sino.

What's this?
The Quran was compiled under the regime of Uthman with Saheed bn Tabith leading other scribes.

There were various reciters during this period and all had memorized different parts, but these men were getting old and dying in wars hence the suggestion of the then Khalif to compile the Qur'an.

tintingz:
I just thought of this recently, Why was Ali's(RA) compilation of Quran rejected and Abu Bakr and Umar(RA) collection were accepted?

Many Muslims out there don't even know about this.

By Allah as long as it's Umar and Abubakar R.A. I believe in it infinillion percent. This is not a useful an important ilm so if I were you I would restrain myself, even the messenger of Allah asked Allah to protect him from useless knowledge.

AlBaqir:


You are welcome bro. anytime.



# The so-called story of Quran compilations according to Ahlu Sunnah beliefs started at the time of Abu Bakr. An alleged multiple death (at battle field) of Hafiz al-Quran from amongst sahabah made him concluded that Quran must be collected and compiled. According to Ahlu Sunnah, Quran was in pieces, unorganized, one part with Mr A, one part with Mr B etc during and after the lifetime of the Prophet. This lie and unintelligent tale is amongst many things Shia do not believe in. Here's one extra clear Sunni Hadith:

Imam Tirmidhi documents:

Narrated Qatadah: that Anas bin Malik said: "Four GATHERED THE QUR'AN DURING THE time of the Messenger of Allah (s), all of them are from the Ansar: Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid." I said to Anas: "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said: "One of my uncles."

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)

English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3794
Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4163
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49


# So, how can another claim otherwise that Qur'an was left littered as at the demise of Nabi?! Anyway, let's continue with the bogus story:

# Abu Bakr with Umar summoned Zaid Ibn Thabit ONLY to collect and compile Quran. According to them as written in sunni sources, they said, "we do not suspect him (i.e Zaid).

# After the completion, that Quran remained Abu Bakr's property in custody of his daughter. Nothing was known whether Umar collected (from whom it was entrusted) and used the alleged compiled Quran during his tenure.

# Here comes the time of Uthman. He was reported to have collected Abu Bakr's compiled Quran. Yet he gathered some of the Quranic reciter to compiled another. All other versions, and different style of recitations were destroyed.

According to Sunni Islam, 'Uthman literally "edited" the original version of the Qur'an, removing all non-Qurayshi terminologies from it. He also burnt out of existence six other revealed variants of the Qur'an.

Hence, we are said to be using Uthmanic edition till date.



# Like I said earlier, Ali's copy was said to come with full detailed Tafsir. The fact that he was the best in the knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah, and Nabi said " Just as I fought for the revelation of the Quran, he (Ali) will fight for its tawil (interpretation) ".

# How do you expect them to accept Ali's version (with Tafsir) when information in it will be suicidal to their merits and position?

# But really, the fact that what they allegedly compiled and that of Ali are the same, that says a lot why Ali himself did not fight them as per the greatest legacy of Prophet i.e Quran. He never come out with that version of his, history says. It remains a source of unrivalled knowledge amongst his household.

SubuhanAllah you are trying to make Abubakar and Umar R.A look like corrupt leaders by Allah this are people who would have died for the sake of the messenger of Allah, this are people that fought side by side with him this are people who were together with through the hard times you have the guts to make someone like Umar R.A look corrupt by Allah you should repent from your statement or Allah will judge between you and them on the day of judgement for falsely accusing them.

najib632:
By Allah as long as it's Umar and Abubakar R.A. I believe in it infinillion percent. This is not a useful an important ilm so if I were you I would restrain myself, even the messenger of Allah asked Allah to protect him from useless knowledge.

No knowledge is useless, I don't need to ask protection from an imaginary friend. Thank you.

tintingz:
Someone should give a good logical reason the Quran of today a.k.a Uthmantic copy is totally and completely the same as Quran written by the Prophet Muhammad (SA)?

Prophet Muhammad S.A.W doesn't know how to write he only receives revaluation and transmit it to his sahabas so the recording was done by them. And there is no way Uthman R.A. copy will be different from that of rasullulAllah, because there are people who have memorized it, if at all anything even a single comma did not really with theirs they would have disapproved his version.

tintingz:
OK.

Imam al-Bukhari narrates in his Sahih (6:183-184) from Anas ibn Malik (RA) that Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time the people of Sham were battling for the conquest of Armenia and Azerbaijan [~year 25H] with the people of Iraq. Their divergences in Qur'anic reading had alarmed Hudhayfa, so he said to `Uthman: "O Commander of the Believers! Rescue (adrik) this Umma before they differ over the Book the way the Jews and Christians differed." Whereupon `Uthman wrote to Hafsah: "Send us the folios (suhuf) so that we copy them then we shall return them to you." Hafsa then sent them to `Uthman who ordered Zayd ibn Thabit, `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa`id ibn al-`As, and `Abd Allah ibn al-Harith ibn Hisham who copied those folios into the volumes (masahif). `Uthman said to the group - the three Qurayshis: "If you find yourselves differing, [the three of] you and Zayd ibn Thabit in anything of the Qur'an, write it in the tongue of the Quraysh. For it was not revealed but in their tongue." They did [as instructed] and when they finished copying the folios into the volumes, `Uthman returned the folios to Hafsa, sent one mushaf to each region from those they had copied, then ordered that all other [copies] of the Qur'an in each and every folio or volume be burnt.
http://sunnah.org/history/Sahaba/Sayyidina_Uthmans_preservation_Quran.htm

Many people during the time of `Uthman had their own explanatory notes in their personal copies of the Qur’an. Others had written down portions of the Qur’an themselves. In order to prevent any future issues of explanatory notes being considered as part of the Qur’an or arguments due to a mistake on the part of the writer – claiming that he has something of the Qur’an which others do not have – these old copies were burnt.
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/32699

- First, you said people didn't have versions of Quran, this above shows there were versions of Quran which were burnt.

- Secondly, how does Uthman know the other versions were not reliable since it was compiled by men in the first place, and which original version was with Hafsa?

You don't call other people's book fallacy when you have no evidence to disapprove/counter it.

The Quran said Allah has legs, two hands which He used to create Adam and Allah's throne is on water, Dont let me go to hadith.

Many religious people will say these things are metaphor, if you believe many Quran verses are metaphor, why do you have problem with the Jewish, christian book?




No, this is what happen when one think outside the box.

Again, why should I produce another version of Harry porter book I've already read? Does it make sense to you.


The only different bible version is the roman catholic and protestant any other are interpretations.

How can there be other versions of the Quran when Uthman burnt them.

Not versions but dialects that were not the prophets own. Today you rarely can find an original gospel or Torah

najib632:
Not versions but dialects that were not the prophets own. Today you rarely can find an original gospel or Torah

Oga, you're just repeating what has already been discussed and argued in this thread, kindly go through the thread before landing your response.

najib632:
SubuhanAllah you are trying to make Abubakar and Umar R.A look like corrupt leaders

# I do not make them look "corrupt" rather their deeds did. You can judge them yourself here (if you are not scared of truth):
www.nairaland.com/3038732/identifying-khulafau-rashidun-rightly-guided

najib632:

by Allah this are people who would have died for the sake of the messenger of Allah, this are people that fought side by side with him this are people who were together with through the hard times you have the guts to make someone like Umar R.A look corrupt by Allah you should repent from your statement or Allah will judge between you and them on the day of judgement for falsely accusing them.

# @bold, why would you swear on something you know not?

* Quran exposed those you've mentioned (and the likes of them) in the second battle of Islam, battle of Uhud:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 153:

When you ran off precipitately and did not wait for any one, and the Apostle was calling you from your rear, so He gave you another sorrow instead of (your) sorrow, so that you might not grieve at what had escaped you, nor (at) what befell you; and Allah is aware of what you do.

All of them, Abubakr, Umar and Uthman ran away leaving the Prophet for dead. Umar himself reported how he ran away from the battle field and take cover from a nearby mountain. Uthman ran far away that it was after 3 days he returned back to Madina.



* After this battle, they repented and Allah forgave them all (the runners). However, they need to make a bay'a (allegiance).

- they confessed that their bay'a (allegiance) to the Prophet were not to the point of dying for the Prophet

# Imam Muslim documents:

Chapter: It is recommended for the army to swear
allegiance to the ruler when intending to fight, and an
account of Bay'at Ar-Ridwan beneath the tree

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir who
said:

We were one thousand and four hundred on the Day of
Hudaibiya. We swore fealty to him (the Holy Prophet) and
'Umar was holding the latter's hand (when he was sitting)
under the tree (called) Samura (to administer the oath to the Companions). The narrator added: We took oath to the effect that we would not flee (from the battlefield if there was an encounter with the Meccans), but we did not take oath to fight to death.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 1856 a
In-book reference : Book 33, Hadith 104
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 20, Hadith 4576
https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/104


After these Bay'ah, following happened:

# At the battle of Ahzab, some [led by Umar] choose to hide
from the vicinity leaving their Prophet with the enemies

# At the battle of Khaybar, after Abu Bakr ran away, Umar
did the same the following day in a more disappointing
fashion. Soldiers assigned to him accused him of cowardice and he too accused them.

# At Tabuk, some choose to assassinate the holy Prophet.

# At Hunayn, even when the Muslims outnumbered the
Mushriqun, they ran away as usual; and "the great" Umar Ibn Khattab even claimed it was Allah's command. Allah yet rebuked these runners in sura Tawbah.

So all these were not mistakes. They simply don't wanna
die as Umar himself explained:{ We took oath to the effect that we would not flee, but we did not take oath to death}


Quran (49:15) says:

"The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere"

* You can read details of each war and how they continue to run away here:
www.nairaland.com/2734029/umar-ibn-al-khattab-contributions-battles


# So, please do not accuse me of crime I did not commit rather put the blame where it should be. For a record, I don't come on the internet and make empty claim.

AlBaqir:


# I do not make them look "corrupt" rather their deeds did. You can judge them yourself here (if you are not scared of truth):
www.nairaland.com/3038732/identifying-khulafau-rashidun-rightly-guided





# @bold, why would you swear on something you know not?

* Quran exposed those you've mentioned (and the likes of them) in the second battle of Islam, battle of Uhud:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 153:

When you ran off precipitately and did not wait for any one, and the Apostle was calling you from your rear, so He gave you another sorrow instead of (your) sorrow, so that you might not grieve at what had escaped you, nor (at) what befell you; and Allah is aware of what you do.

All of them, Abubakr, Umar and Uthman ran away leaving the Prophet for dead. Umar himself reported how he ran away from the battle field and take cover from a nearby mountain. Uthman ran far away that it was after 3 days he returned back to Madina.



* After this battle, they repented and Allah forgave them all (the runners). However, they need to make a bay'a (allegiance).

- they confessed that their bay'a (allegiance) to the Prophet were not to the point of dying for the Prophet

# Imam Muslim documents:

Chapter: It is recommended for the army to swear
allegiance to the ruler when intending to fight, and an
account of Bay'at Ar-Ridwan beneath the tree

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir who
said:

We were one thousand and four hundred on the Day of
Hudaibiya. We swore fealty to him (the Holy Prophet) and
'Umar was holding the latter's hand (when he was sitting)
under the tree (called) Samura (to administer the oath to the Companions). The narrator added: We took oath to the effect that we would not flee (from the battlefield if there was an encounter with the Meccans), but we did not take oath to fight to death.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 1856 a
In-book reference : Book 33, Hadith 104
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 20, Hadith 4576
https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/104


After these Bay'ah, following happened:

# At the battle of Ahzab, some [led by Umar] choose to hide
from the vicinity leaving their Prophet with the enemies

# At the battle of Khaybar, after Abu Bakr ran away, Umar
did the same the following day in a more disappointing
fashion. Soldiers assigned to him accused him of cowardice and he too accused them.

# At Tabuk, some choose to assassinate the holy Prophet.

# At Hunayn, even when the Muslims outnumbered the
Mushriqun, they ran away as usual; and "the great" Umar Ibn Khattab even claimed it was Allah's command. Allah yet rebuked these runners in sura Tawbah.

So all these were not mistakes. They simply don't wanna
die as Umar himself explained:{ We took oath to the effect that we would not flee, but we did not take oath to death}


Quran (49:15) says:

"The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere"

* You can read details of each war and how they continue to run away here:
www.nairaland.com/2734029/umar-ibn-al-khattab-contributions-battles


# So, please do not accuse me of crime I did not commit rather put the blame where it should be. For a record, I don't come on the internet and make empty claim.

By Allah your knowledge is a waste since Umar R.A. life style and ruler ship was hypocrisy to you this is some one that Rasuolullah said in authentic hadiths:
1.with regards to Abubakar Asiddeq: Another of his virtues is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) appointed him to lead the prayers in his stead at the end of his life, when he fell sick with his final illness, and he rebuked those who objected to this and said, “Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 683; Muslim 418.

2.And it was narrated from Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) climbed Uhud with Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and it trembled beneath them. He said, ‘Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet, a Siddeeq and two martyrs.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3675.
1.With regard to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), he also had many virtues and good characteristics which were proven in many reports. For example it was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whilst I was sleeping, I saw the people were shown to me, and they were wearing shirts. Some shirts came down to the chest, and some were shorter than that. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab was shown to me and he was wearing a shirt that dragged along the ground.” They said, “How did you interpret that, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Religious commitment.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 23; Muslim, 2390.
2.It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whilst I was sleeping, a cup of milk was brought to me and I drank until I saw its wetness coming out of my nails. Then I gave the rest to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab.” They said, “How did you interpret that, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “(It is) knowledge.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 82; Muslim, 2391.
By Allah I feel so angry with you, after all the good this men have done you still lie against them may Allah judge between you and them.

najib632:
By Allah your knowledge is a waste since Umar R.A. life style and ruler ship was hypocrisy to you this is some one that Rasuolullah said in authentic hadiths:
1.with regards to Abubakar Asiddeq: Another of his virtues is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) appointed him to lead the prayers in his stead at the end of his life, when he fell sick with his final illness, and he rebuked those who objected to this and said, “Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 683; Muslim 418.

2.And it was narrated from Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) climbed Uhud with Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and it trembled beneath them. He said, ‘Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet, a Siddeeq and two martyrs.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3675.
1.With regard to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), he also had many virtues and good characteristics which were proven in many reports. For example it was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whilst I was sleeping, I saw the people were shown to me, and they were wearing shirts. Some shirts came down to the chest, and some were shorter than that. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab was shown to me and he was wearing a shirt that dragged along the ground.” They said, “How did you interpret that, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Religious commitment.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 23; Muslim, 2390.
2.It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whilst I was sleeping, a cup of milk was brought to me and I drank until I saw its wetness coming out of my nails. Then I gave the rest to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab.” They said, “How did you interpret that, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “(It is) knowledge.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 82; Muslim, 2391.
By Allah I feel so angry with you, after all the good this men have done you still lie against them may Allah judge between you and them.

# Now you are losing focus. You claimed those people can sacrifice their lives in protecting the Prophet; however, the reverse was the case. Now you've jumped to their "merits".

# I have academically replied and exposed all those ahadith here:

www.nairaland.com/4141028/sunni-shia#61955833

keep it up brother,don't let them deter u

tintingz:
If you can't answer reasonably to the "useless topic" why not keep shut. Thank you.

"(There's) no such thing as a stupid question" is a popular phrase that has had a long history. It suggests that the quest for knowledge includes failure, and that just because one person may know less than others they should not be afraid to ask rather than pretend they already know. In many cases multiple people may not know but are too afraid to ask the "stupid question"; the one who asks the question may in fact be doing a service to those around them.
Source

AlBaqir:


# The Hadith is more than enough for a prove that Quran was gathered in full at the time of Nabi, and never in tatters and pieces (to the fact that goat eat some parts or they were looking for other parts here and there) that your history bogusly claimed.

No one disputes the Qur'an being gathered during the life time of the Prophet ( SAW ), there is even a narration whereby a copy of the Qur'an (even though revelation was still on) was given to a sahabah who was sent by the Prophet ( SAW ) to another region. If you can't understand that people had different parts of the Qur'an written for their personal study and use, then you should provide us with the evidence that the Prophet ( SAW ) ordered a specific group to gather the Qur'an between two bindings and distribute this to everyone!

AlBaqir:

# You know me, I don't follow the fantasy of Abubakr or Uthman's compilation for if truly it did happened, then they recompiled Quran against what is already on ground.

Allah ( SWT ) Says He will guard the Qur'an against corruption, so tell us how these companions recompiled the Qur'an against what was already on ground?

AlBaqir:

# Unfortunately, ONLY Zaid Ibn Thaabit was given the task of (re)compiling the Qur'an by Abubakr, and the latter claimed "We (i.e Abubakr and Umar) do not find fault in you (i.e Zaid). Meaning nobody else was ever consulted despite the fact that those who have better knowledge of Quran were very much alive. Is this not a big conspiracy?

Tell us the conspiracy AlBaqir, what did these companions do? Did they change the Qur'an?!

AlBaqir:

# If there is/was no difference between the " recompilation" of Abubakr and Uthman, why the need of Uthman to "re-recompiled" after using Abubakr's (re)compilation? Did he wanna claim credit for a work of somebody else ni?

The reason(s) for doing what these respectable companions did were clearly stated, you may go up few posts to read them again.

AlBaqir:

# Whatever Zaid (and allegedly Imam Ali) said, is 100% contradictory in front of for example another Quran expert, Abdullah Ibn Abbas who argued that there is an error of the scribe in Qur'an. He confirmed a particular ayah was not written as Allah revealed it, and even sworn in another area. Unfortunately, those "errors" are still present till date.

# Please think Mr sino.

So when Allah ( SWT ) Says He would Guard the Qur'an against errors and corruption, it isn't true?! Imam Ali ( RA ) never argued that the Qur'an was tampered with, isn't he more knowledgeable about the Qur'an than Abdullah Ibn Abbas?! So you believe that there are "errors" in the Qur'an?!

And this had always been the belief of the Shi'a, the Qur'an was corrupted by these honourable companions, hence, they don't study the Qur'an in their religious schools and colleges.

You should be the one to think, do you believe in Allah's Words or the words of man?!