Christianity is centered on the new testament , not the old testament which is Judaism. There are no inciteful verses in Christianity and Jesus Christ being the author and finisher of our faith commanded to LOVE and even turn the other cheek while being attacked.

Any christian that takes a life is doomed already and is on his own. In Christianity our only standard is Jesus Christ who didn't kill, didn't steal, didn't behead people or cut off fingertips, instead he healed the sick, raised the dead, open blind eyes, cured lepers, delivered people, didnt rape, didnt marry an underaged child and was not misorgynist agist women.

Mohammed on the other hand who Muslims are commanded to be like was a murderer, serial killer, rapist, paedophile, caravan raider (thief), terrorist, and misorgynist against women.

Do you now see the difference?

fratermathy:


I am not debating that there are some funny verses in the Koran. We can also agree that there are some funny verses as well in the Bible. However, it takes PEOPLE to interpret those verses and act on them. Not every Muslim will act on those verses. Some even ignore them entirely. Those that use them to justify their bloodlust are nothing but criminals and should be treated as such.

joseph1832:
You know there's always a vacant tongue for you, dear.

Perv

Pastafarian:


in simple terms, it simply means whatever a god commands is right and it would be wrong not to follow it, eg when Yahweh commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanite children, it would've been wrong for the Israelites not to kill them

basically, anything my god commands is right no matter what my opinion or disagreement with it may be "because my understanding of the situation is limited unlike that if my god"

do you subscribe to this?

I do now. But you must understand that the instruction of God over Canaan was simple - chase them out the land. A war was inevitable. God did not, in plain terms, ask Israel to kill or murder the inhabitants of Canaan.

Kindly let me add that your instance and that of menxer is based on the Old Testament which is not a yardstick for measuring Christians. The Old Testament folks were never Christians let alone believers.

The typical Christian lifestyle is the New Testament. Anything short of that is not from God.

Sanchez01:

I do now. But you must understand that the instruction of God over Canaan was simple - chase them out the land. A war was inevitable. God did not, in plain terms, ask Israel to kill or murder the inhabitants of Canaan.

Kindly let me add that your instance and that of menxer is based on the Old Testament which is not a yardstick for measuring Christians. The Old Testament folks were never Christians let alone believers.

The typical Christian lifestyle is the New Testament. Anything short of that is not from God.

I don't see how this answers the question

and to take you up on the destruction part which you're actually denying

There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses. ( Joshua 11:19-20)


So Yahweh "hardened" the hearts of the Canaanites to guarantee that they would "come against Israel in battle." Had he not done that, some of the Canaanites might have chosen a more peaceful solution and the Israelites might have been tempted to befriend them. Instead, they slaughtered everyone.

but in order not to make this a back and forth, what about the Midianites? Yahweh directly called for their destruction and told them to only keep young virgins for themselves

would it have been wrong for the Israelites to have kept the young boys alive too? or would it have been right?


NB: I'm diving at a point and I haven't brought Christianity into this but are you in any way saying the Israelites were unbelievers?

Sanchez01:


While I wouldn't want us to derail the topic at hand, it would be fair to explain your questions.

Why did God's own people attack others without provocation?
1. It was for the lands. God had promised His people a Promised Land and even while there were inhabitants occupying the land, it was not theirs as it rightfully belongs to God.
2. For blood retribution (I'll get to this later).

Facts to remember

First, the Promised Land belonged to God before the Canaanites established temporary residency there. It had always been his plan to give this land to the descendants of Abraham: “In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here” (Genesis 15:16a). The Lord did not take from the Canaanites that which was “theirs”—he reclaimed that which was his according to his foreordained purposes.

Second, the Canaanites lived in wicked rebellion against the will and purposes of God. The Lord had predicted that Abraham’s descendants would claim the land when “the sin of the Amorites” reached its “full measure” (Genesis 15:16b). This “full measure” of sin was attained by the Canaanites in the generation leading to the Jewish conquest.

Moses warned his people about these sins they would encounter upon entering the Promised Land: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead” (Deuteronomy 18:10-11). He stated that anyone who practices such sins is “detestable to the Lord,” and explained that “because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you” (v. 12). Those who were conquered by Joshua and his armies were not innocent victims, but wicked sinners who received the judgment their transgressions had warranted.

Third, the blood retribution practiced by ancient tribal culture required the Jewish armies to destroy not only the soldiers of their enemies, but their families as well. So long as one member of a family remained, that person was bound by cultural law to attempt retribution against the enemies of his people. Such unrest and hostility would have persisted throughout the nation’s history, with no possibility of peace in the land. What appears to be genocide was actually the way wars were typically prosecuted.

Fourth, in these formative early years of Israel’s history it was imperative that the people be kept from the influence of sinners without or within their nation. The holy God who gave them their land would uproot them from it if they rebelled against him (Deuteronomy 28:63-68). This warning came to pass centuries later at the hands of Assyria and then Babylon, and ultimately in the national destruction wrought by Rome in the first century of the Christian era.

And so God had to bring severe judgment against Achan, lest he and his family spread the cancer of their disobedience within the nation. He ordered his people to destroy all they found within Canaanite civilization, lest it continue to tempt them to disobedience and eventual destruction. We find similar severity during the formative years of the Christian movement in God’s judgment against Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11).

And you must understand this, all these happened thousands of years ago. Christ came into the picture and showed that practices of the past should be done away with, by demonstrating what it means to be at peace all round. And even in the face of stiff persecution, he still demonstrated love by rebuking Peter who cut off a soldier's ear.

I wish I could apply the equation to the Koran but it doesn't work that way. So how then do you justify 'when/if God commands you to take up arms and kill in Islam'?

We are created by God, yes, but He gives us the free will to act and choose as we live. He only acts on the lives of those who allow Him to.


Can we not exhibit dogma, please? Thank you!

Your explanations are sound, based on the Israelites report, it does not nullify the fact that they went to war on the command of their God.

If those nations sinned(?) against God when they were operating freewill, what has that got to do with the Isrealites? It's the same thing with the Muslims attacking others (especially Christians) for sinning against their God.

So God created man, gave him freewill and still wants to control man, what's is the essence of freewill in the first place?

Before the coming of Jesus, there was monotheism and others that preached peace and morality in Egypt, Greece, Babylon, Sumer, etc.

The Bible does not tell us the whole story as it affected the ancient world but from the perspective of the Isrealites. It's like talking exclusively about the Biafran war in isolation, devoid of the role played by the superpowers of the day.

Now Jericho was over ran by the Israelites, but they didn't settle in that city, why?

... But I know better because other historical records reveal there was more than what the Bible records.

Sorry for derailing the thread.

Pastafarian:


in simple terms, it simply means whatever a god commands is right and it would be wrong not to follow it, eg when Yahweh commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanite children, it would've been wrong for the Israelites not to kill them

basically, anything my god commands is right no matter what my opinion or disagreement with it may be "because my understanding of the situation is limited unlike that if my god"

do you subscribe to this?

Well, based on this submission of yours this whole discourse is a nullity and ultra vires, why do we blame or criticize the Muslims then?

Pastafarian:


I don't see how this answers the question

and to take you up on the destruction part which you're actually denying

There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses. ( Joshua 11:19-20)


So Yahweh "hardened" the hearts of the Canaanites to guarantee that they would "come against Israel in battle." Had he not done that, some of the Canaanites might have chosen a more peaceful solution and the Israelites might have been tempted to befriend them. Instead, they slaughtered everyone.

but in order not to make this a back and forth, what about the Midianites? Yahweh directly called for their destruction and told them to only keep young virgins for themselves

would it have been wrong for the Israelites to have kept the young boys alive too? or would it have been right?


NB: I'm diving at a point and I haven't brought Christianity into this but are you in any way saying the Israelites were unbelievers?

Hello,

You repeated just what I said, albeit, in a different way.

No one vacates his abode peacefully when a 'total' stranger comes. And like I said, a war was inevitable. It has remained that way from time immemorial. There is an epistle I posted above about retribution. It was the practice of old. When you are on a mission of such, you spare no one, lest you have done nothing.

Israel had the number at the time and it was quite easy for them to overrun and outnumber their foes in the wars.

Furthermore, there were always spoils of war. I believe this is also found in Islam. Israel was a funny race. Just as the practice of modern day Islam, Israel would consider a male that is not originally born by one of them as infidels or uncircumcised. It was a demeaning word they used all over, particularly against others.

So keeping 'uncircumcised' boys was never an option.

menxer:


Your explanations are sound, based on the Israelites report, it does not nullify the fact that they went to war on the command of their God.

If those nations sinned(?) against God when they were operating freewill, what has that got to do with the Isrealites? It's the same thing with the Muslims attacking others (especially Christians) for sinning against their God.

Like I mentioned in the other post, most of the wars were either based on land tussle or retribution. Israel never fought for pride. Again, Christians are not bound by the Old Testament. If we were, we would be the ones doing the killings all over as you find Muslims insult Christians and Jesus Christ and nothing happens. Christ is the true reflection of who a Christian should be like.

Note, there was at no time in the Bible God directly asked that a people be annihilated for sinning greatly against Him. Most of these nations had an encounter with Israel at some point Israel, being God's people did not hold. It would interest you to know that David was the greatest warrior in the Bible because God was solely behind him. Yet, God refused that he built the Temple because this blood on his hands were too much. Funny yeah?

Even right from the time of the Old Testament, Israel understood one thing as mentioned by Moses - God fights all battles, peace is ours for the taking.

We can't fight for God, so we believe as Christians and this is in accordance to the teachings of Christ.

So God created man, gave him freewill and still wants to control man, what's is the essence of freewill in the first place?

Even in the face of freewill, sin is a reproach. That you give your kids liberty to do whatever they want and, God forbid, they chose to steal and do all sorts, even in the face of freewill, you'll scold them. Just as it is with God is the same way it is with God.

Before the coming of Jesus, there was monotheism and others that preached peace and morality in Egypt, Greece, Babylon, Sumer, etc.

So they say. Egypt had several gods just as Babylon and Sumer. Their operations of worship was quite simple. They had main gods and smaller gods which didn't make people notice the smaller gods. Egypt in particular had gods for everything; the god of the sea, moon, stars, rain, harvest, etc.
And these three mentioned by you had one thing in common - human sacrifice. So if you say they preached peace yet sacrificed humans to Enki and the other gods, then perhaps I'm at a loss for the word 'peace'.

The Bible does not tell us the whole story as it affected the ancient world but from the perspective of the Isrealites. It's like talking exclusively about the Biafran war in isolation, devoid of the role played by the superpowers of the day.

Fortunately, it did. What led to the wars, who suffered more casualties, how many wins and how many losses, all are recorded in the Bible.

Now Jericho was over ran by the Israelites, but they didn't settle in that city, why?

Why was Israel commanded to practice such complete destruction? Because the greatest sins of the Canaanites were spiritual: When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations.

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.

You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you. (Deuteronomy 18:9-14)


Again, the lives of Christians are not directed by Israel or blood lust. The Old Testament was never our standard.

Sanchez01:

Like I mentioned in the other post, most of the wars were either based on land tussle or retribution. Israel never fought for pride. Again, Christians are not bound by the Old Testament. If we were, we would be the ones doing the killings all over as you find Muslims insult Christians and Jesus Christ and nothing happens. Christ is the true reflection of who a Christian should be like.

And it never occurred to you to ask why Yahweh would promise the Israelites a land that already belong to another people, when there were probably virgin lands elsewhere?
Retributions? When there was no prior conflict them those people?

Note, there was at no time in the Bible God directly asked that a people be annihilated for sinning greatly against Him. Most of these nations had an encounter with Israel at some point Israel, being God's people did not hold. It would interest you to know that David was the greatest warrior in the Bible because God was solely behind him. Yet, God refused that he built the Temple because this blood on his hands were too much. Funny yeah?

Even right from the time of the Old Testament, Israel understood one thing as mentioned by Moses - God fights all battles, peace is ours for the taking.

We can't fight for God, so we believe as Christians and this is in accordance to the teachings of Christ.

very funny, You didn't proofread that?

“great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, and houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full”.
(Deut 6:10-11)
Is that not a call to holocaust?

Even in the face of freewill, sin is a reproach. That you give your kids liberty to do whatever they want and, God forbid, they chose to steal and do all sorts, even in the face of freewill, you'll scold them. Just as it is with God is the same way it is with God.

Well, you see there is nothing like freewill, in the true sense of the word, because you can't say, or do as you like.

So they say. Egypt had several gods just as Babylon and Sumer. Their operations of worship was quite simple. They had main gods and smaller gods which didn't make people notice the smaller gods. Egypt in particular had gods for everything; the god of the sea, moon, stars, rain, harvest, etc.
And these three mentioned by you had one thing in common - human sacrifice. So if you say they preached peace yet sacrificed humans to Enki and the other gods, then perhaps I'm at a loss for the word 'peace'.

Hahahahahahahahaha
Read my comment again.

Check up Pharoah Akhenaten

Do you have a link to the literature that shows Egyptian practiced human sacrifice or humans were sacrificed to Enki, the creator of man?
If you know Enki, who is Yahweh in relation to him?

Fortunately, it did. What led to the wars, who suffered more casualties, how many wins and how many losses, all are recorded in the Bible.

I guess the Bible told you about Enki?

Why was Israel commanded to practice such complete destruction? Because the greatest sins of the Canaanites were spiritual: When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations.

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.

You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you. (Deuteronomy 18:9-14)

I am not making excuses for the profane worship practices of some of those nations, aside the oppression of the Israelites in Egypt (which cause the Bible sheds little light except "there arose a Pharoah that knew not Joseph) was there any other conflict, religious or otherwise?

Come to think of it, it seems Yahweh was a totalitarian dictator, or there is something we are not told, who taught those people soothsaying?

Again, the lives of Christians are not directed by Israel or blood lust. The Old Testament was never our standard.

Yea, you are right. The old testament was for Israelites and the new testament was for us, the gentiles, because Jesus came among us for us.
And That is why the nation of Isreal has less than 5% Christian population.
We are commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, we don't ask why.

Religion was an institution that evolved in order to help us make sense of the world and keep us rational but now it is killing us and bringing about differences in society. Religious leaders had better slam the lid on that quick before it loses it's essence and everyone can totally see it for the facade that it was.

fratermathy:


I am not debating that there are some funny verses in the Koran. We can also agree that there are some funny verses as well in the Bible. However, it takes PEOPLE to interpret those verses and act on them. Not every Muslim will act on those verses. Some even ignore them entirely. Those that use them to justify their bloodlust are nothing but criminals and should be treated as such.

I won't take you serious until I see a single church build in Saudi Arabia. What I see you do is Islamic deception or Christian ignorance.

Islam, by nature, is intolerant, violence and deceptive to the core.