The Menorah

by Jonathan Ledger

The menorah is one of the oldest symbols within the jewish faith. The seven branched candelabrum is representative of the Spirit of God which is seven.

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The seven branched candelabrum was placed in the Temple and the Kohanim were responsible for lighting the menorah very evening. They were responsible for cleaning it every morning and replacing the wicks and filling the cups with fresh oil.

Exd 25:32 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:

Exd 25:33 Three bowls made like unto almonds, [with] a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, [with] a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

http://www.messiahforum.com/teaching005.html

A reconstruction of the Menorah of the Temple


Second Temple period stone tablet from a synagogue in Peki'in, Israel.


Coin issued by Mattathias Antigonus c. 40 BCE.
The menorah (Hebrew: מְנוֹרָה‎), is a seven-branched candelabrum which has been a symbol of Judaism for almost 3000 years and is the emblem of Israel. It was used in the ancient Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Lit by olive oil in the Tabernacle and the Temple, the menorah is one of the oldest symbols of the Jewish people. It is said to symbolize the burning bush as seen by Moses on Mount Horeb (Exodus 3).
(Parshat Terumah) Exodus 25:31-40 lists the instructions for the construction of the menorah used in the temple:

The Torah states that God revealed the design for the menorah to Moses. The branches are often artistically depicted as semicircular, but Rashi[1] and Maimonides[2] (according to his son Avraham)[3] held that they were straight; no other Jewish authority expresses an opinion on the subject.[4] Archaeological evidence, however, including depictions by artists who had actually seen the menorah itself, indicates that they were neither straight nor semicircular but elliptical.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_(Temple)

8. THE SYMBOL OF GODS SPIRIT

We have noted earlier that Scripture itself defined the light of the menorah as symbolizing the spirit of God, and that the spirit has six distinct aspects. If we reflect more closely upon these six aspects of spiritual unfolding, we will find that they actually appear in three phases, or that the six aspects are stated in terms of three pairs:

hakma vebina - wisdom and understanding,

etza vegevura - advice and judgement,

daat veyirat hashem - knowledge and awe of G-d

These three factors of spiritual development have possibly the same relationship to ruakh hashem representing both their source and their culmination as do gaviah, kaphtor pehrakh flower cup, seed-bearing pods and corolla-flower to the ner, to the filament with its quickening and life-giving elements.

gaviah, the flower cup, both etymologically and objectively, has been shown to connote a collecting agent, a formative center for new plant growth.

http://thehope.tripod.com/menorah3.htm#8

Astrology? This is Jesus' own interpretation.

"The secret of the seven stars you have seen in my right hand, and of the seven golden lampstands is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches themselves." .

Rev.1:20


Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

chukwudi44:

This is what happens when people have incomplete bibles.

The seven spirits of God actually refers to the seven arch angels that stand in the presence of God.


In the book of tobit that was removed from the bible for political reasons.The Arch angel Raphael told tobit and his son " I am Raphael one of the seven angels that stand in the presence of God".

Also in the book of Revelation 8:3 John said I saw the seven angels who stand in the presence of God"

Considering the fact that the book of tobit was writen before the book of revelation does not cofirm the authenticity of the book ?

Also in the gospel of luke The arc angel gabriel tolg Zechariah,"I am Gabriel I stand in God's presence.


It is confirmed that there are 7 arch angels ,but only 3 were named in the canonical books Micheal,Gabriel and Raphael.

Others like Uriel,Jeremiel,sealtiel were mentioned in noncanonical books of enoch,esdras.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel

see people with complete bible still messing things up. how on earth can God's Spirit be expressed in the person of an angel, Angel Micheal, Gabriel, Rapheal and so on. haba!!

Ancel answered correctly. the book of Isa 11: 2 answers it correctly.

if people don't understand the scriptures, they should ask questions but when it comes to the point of arguement then, that would be so bad. this is because we learn from each other to get perfect and for those questions we can't answer, when we get to heaven, we will be cleared, thanks.

e-mail:

see people with complete bible still messing things up. how on earth can God's Spirit be expressed in the person of an angel, Angel Micheal, Gabriel, Rapheal and so on. haba!!

Ancel answered correctly. the book of Isa 11: 2 answers it correctly.

if people don't understand the scriptures, they should ask questions but when it comes to the point of arguement then, that would be so bad. this is because we learn from each other to get perfect and for those questions we can't answer, when we get to heaven, we will be cleared, thanks.

I have a question. In Isaiah I read 6 spirits, 3 pairs. But revelation mentions 7.

We all know that xtrian bow to spirit they deem holy

@Pastor AIO: I think you missed the first one: The Spirit of the Lord. "Lord"ship is also an attribute, just like wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge and Holy Fear. It signifies undeniable authority.

^^ Nice.

We should understand that the number seven is symbolic and often tends to completeness in a certain regard. In any reference we read about Him in the symbolic language of sevens, we should be careful to not draw a conclusion that that is all the completeness we can find about the Spirit of God.

Just as there is a seven indicated in Isaiah 11:2, so there is another seven indicated in Isaiah 61:1-2. This latter verses read:

[list]The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath ¹anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; ²he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, ³to proclaim liberty to the captives, ⁴and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; ⁵To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, ⁶and the day of vengeance of our God; ⁷to comfort all that mourn[/list]

But immediately after the verses above comes another series of 'seven' in verse 3 -

[list]¹To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, ²to give unto them beauty for ashes, ³the oil of joy for mourning, ⁴the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; ⁵that they might be called trees of righteousness, ⁶the planting of the LORD, ⁷that he might be glorified[/list]

Then back to Revelation where the Spirit is called the 'seven spirits'. We have noted that this is not talking about a literal number os seven different spirits, and some translations have tried to proffer easier understanding of those verses by rendering them as 'sevenfold spirit'. However, in these verses, they are in consonance with the symbolism of the completeness of the workings of the Spirit of God.

@Viaro: Thanks for the expose on Isaiah 61:1-2, that was great! I need to highlight something you wrote here:

We have noted that this is not talking about a literal number of seven different spirits, and some translations have tried to proffer easier understanding of those verses by rendering them as 'sevenfold spirit'. However, in these verses, they are in consonance with the symbolism of the completeness of the workings of the Spirit of God.

And that is what I believe too. Spiritual attributes are not just counted off the fingers like you're counting apple seedlings. The Bible is full of symbolism, and seven-fold indicates that He is full, complete, and lacks nothing. His sevenfold aspects show the fullness of His perfection, character, and might!

Let me also remind us of that word hepta again in Genesis 4:15; "'So the LORD said to him, 'Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold." [NASB] Does it mean that Cain will be avenged seven times? Of course not. It means a full, complete and perfect vengeance.

See also, other references to spirits and sevens

Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Luk 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Luk 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

viaro:

^^ Nice.

We should understand that the number seven is symbolic and often tends to completeness in a certain regard. In any reference we read about Him in the symbolic language of sevens, we should be careful to not draw a conclusion that that is all the completeness we can find about the Spirit of God.

Just as there is a seven indicated in Isaiah 11:2, so there is another seven indicated in Isaiah 61:1-2. This latter verses read:

[list]The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath ¹anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; ²he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, ³to proclaim liberty to the captives, ⁴and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; ⁵To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, ⁶and the day of vengeance of our God; ⁷to comfort all that mourn[/list]

But immediately after the verses above comes another series of 'seven' in verse 3 -

[list]¹To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, ²to give unto them beauty for ashes, ³the oil of joy for mourning, ⁴the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; ⁵that they might be called trees of righteousness, ⁶the planting of the LORD, ⁷that he might be glorified[/list]

Then back to Revelation where the Spirit is called the 'seven spirits'. We have noted that this is not talking about a literal number os seven different spirits, and some translations have tried to proffer easier understanding of those verses by rendering them as 'sevenfold spirit'. However, in these verses, they are in consonance with the symbolism of the completeness of the workings of the Spirit of God.

this is getting interesting and i am loving it! there are seven Spirits of God as rightly quoted. the one you highlighted as you have seen it is the functions of THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD. Samson has THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD in Judges 14 : 6, and the list goes on. all the other six are also higlighted in the Bible but i will send it as soon as i lay my hands on it, thanks.

I'm loving this thread.  Thank you so much for this quote

temidayo27:

the seven spirits of God doesnt mean seven personalities, neither does it talk about angels,  they are simply the dimensions through which the spirit of God manifests Himself: spirit of power, spirit of wisdom, spirit of understanding,spirit of the fear of God, spirit of might, spirit of counsel, spirit of knowledge.

Acts.1:8, Lk.24:49 talked about empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Spirit of power) and Isa.11:2 outlined the remaining 6 manifestations of the Spirit.  Basically, these are what manifest in the live of a believer once the Holy Spirit takes residence.

Isa.61:1-2
I believe was talking about what Christ Himself has been "anointed" (assigned) to do.

We should understand that the number seven is symbolic and often tends to completeness in a certain regard. In any reference we read about Him in the symbolic language of sevens, we should be careful to not draw a conclusion that that is all the completeness we can find about the Spirit of God

There is nothing symboic about the statements made by John and the Angel Raphael


tobit 12 :15

I am Raphael one of the seven angels that stand in the presence of God".

Revv 8:2

I saw the seven angels who stand in the presence of God".

These bible passages are so explicit that even a toddler can interpret them,.This is not a case of chukwudi44 vs viaro,it is a case of Rapheal and John vs viaro.


Astrology? This is Jesus' own interpretation.

Quote
"The secret of the seven stars you have seen in my right hand, and of the seven golden lampstands is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches themselves." .
Rev.1:20


tTHIS IS COMMING FROM THE MASTER HIMSELF,CASE CLOSED

Are you guys talking about extraterrestrials in here?7 angels.10 thousand angels.These middle eastern mythologies will just drive you people nuts.

@chukwudi44 YOU ARE Wrong! The word translated angel in your quote Rev 1:20 means "messegers" .It refers to the "pastors" of the Seven Churches! Rf Rev 2:1,8,18, That was why all the letters were addressed to them in those early chapters of Revelation.

The Seven Spirits Of God simply imply the seven manifestation of the holy Spirit as stated in Isaiah 11.
If u cant answer a question simply ignore it (sorry,I dont mean to be rude!).Stay blessed

I must state here that the seven spirits were definitely not talking about the holy spirit as the holy spirit is not divided into seven pats otherwise we would have more than 3 in the trinity.

Isaiah 11:2 (New International Version)

2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
      the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
      the Spirit of counsel and of power,
      the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD

These bible passage is merely talking about the attributes f the holyspirit and has got nothing to do withn the subject matter

see people with complete bible still messing things up. how on earth can God's Spirit be expressed in the person of an angel, Angel Micheal, Gabriel, Rapheal and so on. haba!!

OL boy are angels not spir

its?

God does not want us to worship angels that is more reason that only two angels were identified with name in the Bible, Michael and Gabriel.

Go and get the complete bible more than two angels are named in the bible

Insert Quote
@chukwudi44 YOU ARE Wrong! The word translated angel in your quote Rev 1:20 means "messegers" .It refers to the "pastors" of the Seven Churches! Rf Rev 2:1,8,18, That was why all the letters were addressed to them in those early chapters of Revelation.

The Seven Spirits Of God simply imply the seven manifestation of the holy Spirit as stated in Isaiah 11.
If u cant answer a question simply ignore it (sorry,I dont mean to be rude!).Stay blessed

SORRY TO DISAPOINT YOU BUT REV 1;20 READS


Revelation 1:20 (American Standard Version)

20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.

You did not address all that I pointed to.
Cant u notice that the letters in Rev 2and3 were adressed to "angels".iDo you think Jesus told John the writer to write letter to angelic beings?

If Jesus want to address angels:why tell a living man to write to heavenly beings
Your line of arguement make me LAF, ha, ha, ha,

@Chuwudi I suspect u are using Catholic Bible that contain extra scriptural books like Tobit etc.
If that is true then, I cant discuss with u any further.Your source/ref is faulty,therefore you cant be correct.

Book of Revelation is full signs and symbols that can not just be take literally, see Rev. 1:1 "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John"

Na wa o!  That word angel sef.  It has become all so confusing.  If the angel of a church is it's pastor then what about the angel of an individual man.  Is it possible for one's angel to be mistaken for oneself?

13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda. 14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. 15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so.[b] Then said they, It is his angel. [/b]16 But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished.

Acts chapt 12

For them to have said that then they must have the belief that an individual has an angel.  Or if they thought it is just somebody that Peter had sent on a message why would Rhoda have recognised Peter's voice.  

The only other explanation that I can think of is that they thought Rhoda misheard the voice at the door.  When she asked: 'Who is it?' She heard the name Peter in the response but actually what the guy said was:  'I have a message from Peter' , not 'I am Peter'.  

I think that the word angel is used in too many different contexts in the bible for us to be sure whether or not it is talking about heavenly being or human messengers.

Like someone had earlier adviced. Get the Book, The seven spirits of God by Chris Oyakhilome; you will not only be enlightened but also inspired and empowered to become all you ever wished to become.

donnie:

Like someone had earlier adviced. Get the Book, The seven spirits of God by Chris Oyakhilome; you will not only be enlightened but also inspired and empowered to become all you ever wished to become.

Sir, Are you all you have ever wished to become?

Hey spirit worshippers how you doing

Pastor AIO:

Sir, Are you all you have ever wished to become?

@Pastor AIO: LOL Always witty and sarcastic, this bros! You no go change for 2010?

@chukwudi44

chukwudi44:

This is not a case of chukwudi44 vs viaro,it is a case of Rapheal and John vs viaro.

Very interesting, chukwudi44 . . . very, very interesting.

I have some time to spare this evening and will give articulate answers to your concerns. Apologies that my replies will be detailed in series for more substance on this subject. However, it is not a case of 'Rapheal and John vs viaro' in as much as my posts were trying to reason along what we find in Biblical revelation. Besides 'John and Raphael', we have to consult other Biblical prophets to get a clearer picture of what we're investigating.

So far, the concensus is that the angels in Revelation 8:2 are not to be confused or misconstrued for the Holy Spirit in His sevenfold manifestations in Revelation 4:5 or 5:6. Once you miss this point, you miss everything.

There is nothing symboic about the statements made by John and the Angel Raphael

I don't know so much about Raphael, but we all understand that John was given messages in Revelation which were mostly symbolic. Our friend SOLA in post #44 just above (and other posters) drove home this point so forcefully that it would be futile to dare to argue further.

For instance, 'the mystery of the seven stars' is symbolic and was explained in Rev. 1:20 as 'the angels of the seven churches'. If this explanation was not given, we might have wrongly inferred that the 'stars' are literal cosmoslogical bodies in the night sky - which is why many people think that Rev. 6:13 is speaking of literal 'stars of heaven' which 'fell unto the earth!' We should be careful here, chukwudi44, for it is clear that John was speaking symbolically rather than literally in those verses we're considering.

My consequent posts will try and extract some of the meanings of the symbols about the 'seven Spirits' that you are mistaking for the 'seven angels'. But first, we shall look at 'angels' and sort out a few things that have been confusing you on the subject of this thread.

A Series of Sevens

By way of a reminder, note that the number 'seven' is used often symbolically in reference to completeness, perfection, extension, concentration,  or assemblage. There are other numbers (such as 'ten' and 'twelve') that are used to represent these things, and we find them in that same Revelation. However, this book of the Bible presents 'seven' mostly in relation to redemption and judgement. For this reason, we find a series of sevens in Revelation -

          *    seven churches which are in Asia (1:11)
          *    seven golden candlesticks (1:12)
          *    mystery of the seven stars (1:20)
          *    the seven Spirits of God (3:1)
          *    seven lamps of fire burning before the throne (4:5)
          *    seven seals (5:1)
          *    seven horns and seven eyes (5:6)
          *    the seven angels which stood before God (8:2)
          *    seven trumpets (8:2)
          *    seven thunders which uttered their voices (10:3)
          *    seven thousand men slain of earthquake (11:13)
          *    great red dragon with seven heads and seven crowns (12:3)
          *    beast out of the sea with seven heads (13:1)
          *    seven angels with seven last plagues (15:1)
          *    seven golden vials full of the wrath of God (15:7)
          *    seven angels with seven vials full of seven last plagues (21:9)

All these are symbolic references and we should study them in some more depth to grasp their significance. With particular reference to our current subject ('seven Spirits' and 'seven angels'), it would be more helpful to see their contexts before drawing any conclusions.

@chukwudi44, . . .

Seven Angels In God's Presence

In Revelation 8:2 we read of 'the seven angels which stood before God'; and the fact that they were given seven trumpets shows in context that these angels were chosen for the special assignments of sounding the judgements and mystery of God.

In just the same manner in Rev. 15:1, another set of 'seven angels' was assigned with pouring out the seven last plagues of God's wrath upon the earth. We read in verse 6 that 'the seven angels came out of the temple', signifying that they had been in the presence of God as well as those 'seven angels' Rev. 8:2.

Yet, in all this, it does not mean that these two sets of 'seven angels' were archangels, nor is there reason to twist any verse to interpret them as the 'seven Spirits of God' in Rev. 3:1. In Zehchariah 6:5, we read that there are 'FOUR spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth' - does that mean that there are "ONLY FOUR" spirits of the heavens who stand before the Lord? No; and so in the same manner, we should not hold too tightly to a certain number and make that the "only" set of spirit beings in heaven or who stand before God.

In Rev. 3:1 we also read of two sets of 'sevens' - (a) 'the seven Spirits of God' and (b) 'the seven stars'. The 'seven stars' have already been explained in Rev. 1:20 - 'The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches' - and SOLA has noted that these angels are 'messengers' who are 'pastors' of the seven churches. They are not 'archangels' either.

However, the term 'seven Spirits of God' in that same Rev. 3:1 does not mean 'seven angels' or 'seven archangels'. Even though 'angels' are spirit beings (Heb. 1:14) and they are sometimes called 'stars' (Job 38:7) or 'sons of God' (Job 1:6), angels are not confused anywhere for 'the seven Spirits of God' - a divine title which is reserved specifically for the Holy Spirit in His manifestations. We shall come back to these peculiarly divine manifestations of God's Spirit.

@chukwudi44, . . .

How Many Angels In God's Presence?

Some have mistakenly thought that there are only 'seven angels' or 'seven arch[/i]angels' who stand in God's presence. This idea is gravely mistaken because the reader forgets or ignores the other verses that speak of numerous angels in God's presence. Indeed, some angels and archangels declare that they stand in God's presence (such as Gabriel did in Luke 1:19); but they are not the only such angels who stand in His presence, for there are very many other angels in God's presence.

Revelation 5:11 tells us that there are many angels who are positioned round about the throne of God - and John was given a [i]symbolic number of emphasis of these numerous angels: 'the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.' This is not a literal number, but rather symbolic of what Hebrews 12:22 calls 'an innumerable company of angels.'

Other references to these innumerable company of angels in God's presence include the following:

[list]Deut. 33:2 - 'the LORD . . . came with ten thousands of saints'

Psalm 68:17 - the chariots of God are 'twenty thousand, even thousands of angels'

Daniel 7:10 - 'thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him'[/list]

The word 'saints' in Deut. 33:2 refers to angels, for indeed angels were sometimes also called 'saints' in just the same way that they were called 'sons of God' in the OT. For example, Daniel referred to angels as 'saints' in Dan. 8:13 ('. . I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, . .').

From these we find that it is not only seven angels that stand in God's presence - Scripture reveals that there are numerous angels who stand in God's presence, everyone of them ministering to and praising Him, as well being sent forth on special assignments. Indeed, rather than arguing from Rev. 8:2 that it is only 'seven angels' who stand in God's presence, we ought to understand that Daniel 7:10 says that 'ten thousand times ten thousand' who 'stood before Him'.

@chukwudi44. . . in the preceding posts I have tried to show that the number of angels who stand in God's presence is far more than 'seven'; and also noted that there is no reason to insert 'arch[/i]angel' in place of 'angel' or 'Spirit' in those verses in Revelation.

One more thing to clarify here before we go further: your reference to Raphael in Tobit 12:15 ([i]or in the book of Tobias 12:15). Even if we consult other references from Catholic Bibles, we shall find again that your arguments cannot be sustained. This was why I requested you in post #29 to please tell me what you understand by a cherub/cherubim - because it would have helped you see why your reference of Tobit 12:15 does not justify your arguments at all.

Does Raphael in that quote state that there are only 'seven arch[/b]angels' in God's presence? From all considerations, the answer is a solid [b]NO. Let's see how:

First, from various Catholic Bibles, Tobit/Tobias 12:15 are rendered thus:

[list]* Douay Rheims ~
¹⁵For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.

* New American Bible ~
¹⁵I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.

* New Jerusalem Bible ~
¹⁵I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ever ready to enter the presence of the glory of the Lord.'[/list]

These various renditions are provided so that we can understand that there is nothing significant in Raphael's statement that we don't find among other numerous angels of God. Whether it is a matter of 'stand before' or 'stand ever ready to enter the presence of the glory' or even 'enter and serve before the Glory' of the Lord, we find other angels doing just the same (Daniel 7:10 - 'thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him').

@chukwudi44. .

Let's revisit the Psalm 68:17, and here I quote one of your earlier posts:

chukwudi44:

There is no in the bible where chariots of fire are used to describe angels,and psalm 68:17 was definitely not talking about angels.

The Chariots of Psalm 68:17

Some Catholics argue that Psalm 68:17 (or Psalm 67:18 in Douay Rheims) has no reference to angels, although these Catholics often have no answers when asked what that verse refers to by the term 'chariots' in the statement: 'the chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels'.

In denying the above, you did not explain or give an alternative meaning of that term in that verse. However, even Catholic references point out clearly that 'chariots' are connected with angels - and much more than 'seven' angels.

For instance, in 1 Paralipomenon 28:18 we read of 'the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings' ('Paralipomenon' is an obsolete name for the OT books of 'Chronicles'). Also, 'chariots of fire' in 2 Kings 2:11 is a reference to angels; the same thing is meant by 'chariots of fire' in 2 Kings 6:17.

Especially in Zechariah 6:1-8, the direct link between angels and chariots of fire is made clear. When the prophet asked: 'What are these, my Lord?', the angel answered: 'These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth' (verse 5). As noted earlier, angels are ministering spirits (Heb. 1:14); but they are not to be confused for 'the seven Spirits' in Revelation 4:5 and 5;6.

While it is remarkable that the revelation of angels known as 'seraphim' was given only to the prophet Isaiah (chapter 6), it is equally fascinating that the revelation of angels known as 'cherubim' was given only to the prophet Ezekiel (chapter 10 etc). Affirming the case for Ezeliel, your own Catholic sources note that - "It was Ezechiel that saw the glorious vision, which was shewn him upon the chariot of cherubims", Ecclesiasticus 49:10. Why would even this verse be speaking of 'chariot of cherubim' if chariots have no reference whatsoever in angels?

I hope that these references would help sort out the enigma of 'chariots' as referring to 'thousands of angels' in Psalm 68:17 for you, chukwudi44? All you needed to do was carefully check your own Catholic sources about these things and not just argue endlessly that there are only 'seven angels' who stand in God's presence.



I've a date shortly, so my posts on the meaning of the 'seven Spirits of God' as a divine title of the Holy Spirit will come later. God bless.

@viaro

I ve never said that there are only seven angels in heaven.The scripture makes it clear that there are millions of angels in heaven.But we also know that there are another class of angels mentioned in the bible called,the arch angels .Although only micheal was the only designated by that title in the bible.It is obvious from the statements of Raphael and Gabriel that there are also part of the arch angels.

Raphael told tobit

tobit 12 :15

I am Raphael one of the seven angels that stand in the presence of God".

The angel Gabriel also told zechariah,I am Gabriel ,I stand in the presence of God who sent me to deliver this message.
Obviously Gabriel belongs to this class of special seven angels ,which John also saw in Rev 8:2

It is only The angel Rapheal orJohn,whom you have to tackle as my responsibility is to beleive what I find in the scriptures.

Where the other angels in heaven stay is where I don't know but what was reported is that there are only seven who stand before the presence of God.

: SOLA ADETUNJI
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You did not address all that I pointed to.

Cant u notice that the letters in Rev 2and3 were adressed to "angels".iDo you think Jesus told John the writer to write letter to angelic beings?

If Jesus want to address angels:why tell a living man to write to heavenly beings
Your line of arguement make me LAF, ha, ha, ha,

@Chuwudi I suspect u are using Catholic Bible that contain extra scriptural books like Tobit etc.
If that is true then, I cant discuss with u any further.Your source/ref is faulty,therefore you cant be

are you saying we should remove rev chapters 2and 3 since there were addresed to angels not humans

back to your last remark,let me repost what I wrote a few months ago


To understand the meaning of the word bible it is pertinent to draw a distinction between the terms scripture and bible.These two terms do no mean the same thing.

The christian bible is a collection of 73 canonised scriptures.What these means is that there are scriptures that were not canonised because the religious authourities then were not sure of their authenticity.Scriptures has always existed centuries or even milleniums before the advent of christianity ,but the bible was created in the fourth century ,precisely in hippo (present day Tagaste in Tunisia) in 393 CE by a church council presided by st Augustine the then bishop of hippo.That church council examined the scriptures and selected 46 books in the OTand 27 books in the NT.These decisions were later ratified by the council of carthage in 397CE.

Pope Innocent 1 in 405 CE,declared the christian canon closed restricting it to these 73 books.What these means is that no one should add to them,like wise no one should remove any from them.These decisions were maintained until 1885 when the archbishop of canterbury removed 7 books from the OT.These books were removed because they were not canonised by the jewish council of jamniain 90CE.IT MUST BE STATED THAT THESE COUNCIL WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN COUNCIL RATHER IT WAS JEWISH.These council obviously had no input from the holyspirit since it equally rejected Jesus and the entire NT.


The septuagint which was the basis of the christian bible was used by the Apostles including Peter and Pauland the early chuch fathers.The discovery of some of the additional books of the septuagint alongside other known and unknown jewish writings has further laid credence to the authenticity of the septuagint.

While the total no of scriptures might never be knownit is pertinent that christians should stick to the 73 books canonised at the synod of hippo in 397CE.ANY BIBLE CONTAINING ANY NO OF BOOKS OTHER THAN THESE 73 BOOKS CANNOT BE SAID TO BE A CHRISTIAN BIBLE


The collections of books protestants call the bible is mixture of the jewish canon and the christian NT,These is what I call the THE HYBRID CANON.
You either stick to the christian bible or you adopt the jewish canon ,you cannot morally justify the combination of the jewish canon with the christian NT.

I Decided to post this because I discovered that more than 70% of protestants are not aware of these facts.It is a pity many christians are not aquainted with JUDAS MACABEES and his historic importance in jewish history.
Important events like the desecration of the temple by Antiochus epiphanes prophesised by prophet Daniel are covered in the accounts of the macabees

TO THE MUSLIMS I SAY THIS

It is not possible for a widely circulating document like the scriptures to be destroyed without leaving any trace.We have heard of ancient biblical scrolls being discovered but no mention of ancient quranic scrolls discovered anywhere.Also there is no mention of Islam in the writings of secular historians who lived before prophet Mohamed.

Islam obviously never existed before prophet mohammed,if islam and the quran had existed,it would not have been humanly possible to destroy it without leaving a trace.

I must also state here that there were attempts by Antiochus epiphanes and the roman emperor diocletan to toally destroy the scriptures but these moves failed because of their divine nature.

THE CHURCH AND THE SCRIPTURES ARE IMMOTAL,THEY HAS NEVER BEEN DESTROYED NOR WILL THEY EVER BE DESTROYED

@chukwudi44,

I regret not having posted the other part of my thoughts on the divine title 'the seven Spirits of God'; but that will come in due course.

However, it seems to me that the weight of your arguments for archangels is a question of their standing in God's presence:

chukwudi44:

Where the other angels in heaven stay is where I don't know but what was reported is that there are only seven who stand before the presence of God.

You keep making this false statement which has been soundly addressed - and that was why I took time yesterday to post a detailed outline to show your argument is plainly false. Please go back and re-read my post in #57: 'How Many Angels In God's Presence?'.

The same Daniel where Michael and Gabriel are mentioned tells us plainly that there are THOUSANDS of angels who stand in God's presence - "thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him" (Daniel 7:10). This just shows your argument that 'there are only seven who stand before the presence of God' is plainly false. Selective reading is perhaps the reason why you are ignoring that verse in Daniel and rushing to Tobit 12:15.

Raphael never claimed that only archangels are in God's presence; nor did he claim that there are only seven angels in God's presence. If that was what he was claiming, he was quite plainly lying as far as all other Biblical prophets are concerned. Since he never made the claim you're forcing upon him in Tobit 12:15, it were better that you just stop making these false assertions.

It is only The angel Rapheal orJohn,whom you have to tackle as my responsibility is to beleive what I find in the scriptures.

Raphael is not the 'only' source about angels in scripture; and John has well made clear that there are more than seven angels in God's presence. In Revelation 5:11, John plainly said that he heard 'the voice of many angels round about the throne' and goes on to mention the number of these angels - 'the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands'.

Please tell me - did John not say where these angels are? Incase you missed it: he said these multitude of angels were 'ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE' - they were in the very presence of God! How many again? John said - 'many angels round about the throne' with an emphatic number: - 'the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands'. What could be plainer than that?

Again the same John wrote in Revelation 7:11 - 'And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God'. Please note: John did not say that 'only seven angels' stood before the throne of God; and the very mention of the 'throne' should make us understand that God was there - "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne" (Revelation 7:10).

Consider these references - and you will see that the Biblical prophets clearly state that there are numerous angels who stand in God's presence: "thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him" (Daniel 7:10).

@viaro

couldyou pleaseadduce any reason why Rapheal and John used the number seven in their statements when they know they are millions of angels who stand before God