, IS JESUS GOD?

This is a debate that has been going on for decades now! A lot of people I've asked  (even some powerful men of God) seem to shy away from this very somewhat complex question. Don't be hasty to answer, take your time, do your research. If you argue the affirmative (for)why then did Jesus die and pray to GOD? and if your response is negatory, why did Jesus not say we should worship him?

The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form. Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God, in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell." John said that Jesus created the world. Peter said, "every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Our age rightly demands open-mindedness and intellectual honesty in any investigation. So also regarding Jesus, it is essential to have all the facts before deciding for, or against, him.

Pls note: God here means the Creator, the Almighty, the Lilly of the Valley,the I AM that I AM, the Jehovah Man of war e.t.c and not the 'god' the bible refers us as. Though, Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM" Jhn 8:58. Was he referring to himself here as GOD (the maker of the universe)?

But what did Jesus say about himself? Did he ever identify himself as God? Just to help you out, check out these verses, John 8:57-59,John 10:30-33, John 13:12-14, John 3:16-18, Matthew 20:25-28, Mark 9:31-32 etc

few decades ago, the word 'he', 'him', 'himself' all referring to Jesus has been replaced with 'He', 'Him', and 'Himself' which thus belongs to GOD!


Support your answers not only with Biblical references but also with educational evidence (s).

I Was in a church one sweet sunday morning, the pastor was about saying the name of Jesus then called God. He then quickly say sorry and say Jesus. If Jesus was God why would he say sorry? However, does it mean he was wrong or perhaps right? Just need your sincere response(s).

Pls do not cumber your replies with scriptures! Be precise, honest and simple.

God Bless!

I can't retype it all here, but I and a friend called Deep Sight have once had this discussion (about Jesus) on NL. See these posts:

His Questions: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.0.html#msg5156122

My Responses:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.32.html#msg5159346
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.32.html#msg5159464
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.32.html#msg5159555
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.32.html#msg5159717
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.32.html#msg5159805
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.32.html#msg5159970

and his refuttals
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.64.html#msg5165832 and the next 7 posts on the thread

and my responses here
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.64.html#msg5168493
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.64.html#msg5171439

Best Regards.

If you understand IT(info-tech), I could explain it like this:

God is the server in a distributed application, while man is the client.
In this scenario, they use remote method invocation(rmi) to access themselves.

That means there is need for the server to provide an interface where by the client can access it and drop its requests.

Therefore, Christ(Jesus) is the interface provided by the server(God) through which the client(man) can access the server.

1 Timothy 2:5 -
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The message of trinity, is beyond human Comprehension. God the father, God the son, and God the spirit.
But i dont see how an answer to the question make you a better christian. Forget abt the relationship that exist between the trinity and work out your salvation.

If you insist to know more, then you can read the book of (Philippians 2:5-11) "5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Vs. 6 of this chapter made it clear that it is not wrong(robbery) if you say jesus christ is equal with God.
So i hope that answers your question. In Trinity Jesus Christ is not God, but the son of God. At the same time you are not wrong seeing him as God, coz Vs 9 of the same chapter told us that God exalted him and gave him a name above every other name, every knee shall bow, in heaven, on earth and even under the earth.
So If he is being exalted by God above everything thing in heaven and on earth(no exception), you are not wrong, by saying he is God.

Is like you being the first and only son of your father and suddenly you achieved all the great things your father can and have achieved, attained the level he did. Definite i will still call you the son Mr XYZ and at the same not wrong for me to call you Mr. XYZ, becoz you have merited that position by some great achievement your father can and did achieve. You have attained that level he did to be called a father. E.g So many cases where the elders of my town called me by the name of my father, becoz they believe that am in full capacity to occupy his position and can fully act on his behalf, you cant say they are wrong in doing that. Hope this answers your question

there is hardly a link between Judaism and Christianity, they are all confused deluded people.

Kay 17:

there is hardly a link between Judaism and Christianity, they are all confused deluded people.

U are the confused one.
The issue of trinity cannot be understood easily by mere thinking, it goes beyond that. All xtians recognises the fact that theres is a supreme being which is God. The father of Jesus. We only call Jesus God by virtue of empowerment God gave to him to RULE OVER EVRYTHING GOD HAS CREATED i.e Jesus is God over all living and non living things both in heaven and earth. But jesus is not God over God But God over things God created. See john14, Jesus confirmed that Evry 1 must worship God and He refered to God as his Father. John3:35 THE FATHER LOVETH THE SON AND HATH PUT ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS. All things here is minus God but includes all other things as wind, sun, moon, man, woman,heaven,earth, angels, satan, continents nations etc. For more info visit the threads posted above for u

@Princekevo

How can the message of the Trinity beyond human comprehension? Our God is not an author of confusion. He says in Psalm 81:10 ", open your mouth wide, and I will fill it". And what was Jesus's response to his disciples when they seem not to understand a thing, Matt 13: 10, 11 and 13
", he answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, [/b]but to them it has not been given I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Ignorance should not be taken as an excuse but if need be, corrected! I posted a topic that demand a straight forward answer, all you could say was for me to work out my salvation. I believe you're better than the response you came up with. If you're that knowledgeable in the things of God, why not tell me yes or no to the above question, back it up with your evidence.



Shalom!

this is a very simple issue. Did Jesus ever say he is God? No
i wonder why God the creator of all the worlds would be afraid to confidently declare his true nature. If he had, we would not have been having this discussion. I dare to say there is no christian on the face of the earth that has never silently or openly questioned the divinity of christ. Why is that? Why did he descend all the way from the heavens to leave the entirty of mankind in confusion about his nature? If christ is actually God' how come it took until 2,000 yrs ago for him to reveal himself. Abraham never knew him nor did moses or the other prophets
the bible states univocally that there is only ONE God. And that christ is not divine. Man has alway had inclination towards Hero Worship. Man-god is not a new thing in the history of man. We have Budha, horus. jeseus etc. Budha like jesus never claimed divinty. It was imposed on them as an act of 'respect' and 'love'

Php 2:4 Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not [merely] his own interests, but also each for the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]
Php 2:6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
Php 2:7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

Prolegomena:
If we can agree that Earth is a temporal place with respect to Heaven, and mankind is utterly finite with respect to God, then we see that every occurrence on earth is very much like the happenings in a book or a movie: pre-determined by the author or script-wright, but each character in the book/movie is oblivious of that fact.

Now, let us consider an autobiography or self-directed documentary, in which the author himself features. Truly, the finality of the matter is known and determined by this author in reality, but that does not prevent the reader / observer from having a thumping heart, or the other story-characters from frenzied actions, as the excitement in the story grows.

In light of this, I will start by saying that this side of existence is relatively virtual, with respect to eternity. As seen in Php 2:4-7 above, Jesus was an "actor" in the "reality show" called Earth. In his essential nature outside the "movie" Earth, he is still himself, God.

It cannot be seriously asserted by anybody that Jesus is the Father. I crafted that question carefully because of the trinitarian problem of identification whereby all three are said to be God, but never identified as being one another: in other words - is the son the Holy spirit as well?

You keep referring to "the three of them", which is an assumption that you have made, thinking I believe in the Trinity. I do not. I repeat, God is not 3-in-1, He is 1-as-3. i.e. A Singleton, who, relative to mankind, has been seen (and still is seen) in three various perspectives.


Analogy: Jackie Chan's Who am I, a 1998 Jackie Chan film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Am_I%3F) which he wrote, starred in, and also directed is a good example here! Since he wrote the movie, I will say He FATHERED it, c.f. the role of God (as) the Father. As he starred in it, that means his own script "gave birth to his character" i.e. He did EXACTLY what the script described for his role (that is what SONship is all about!). Directing the movie is like the role of the Holy Spirit, whom the Bible says, knows the things of God (1 Cor 2:11-13), and is the one qualified to GUIDE us into all truth, as God is truth.
Would it then be right for an observer to ask "How can Jackie Chan condescend to such a level as to allow himself lose his memory (as it happened in the movie)? Since he wrote the script, why couldn't he let it all be an easy, smooth & magical macho ride?". Valid question, but then who would buy such a movie?


In light of the analogy above, if we say that

1. Jackie Chan (the real guy you can eat dinner with),

2. his movie-character (A black-OPs CIA agent also named Jackie Chan) and

3. the movie director (an ambitious guy named Jackie Chan)

are all the same JACKIE CHAN, would we be wrong?

So why is it hard to understand that God wrote a script called Eternity, and one of the seasons of that long movie is called Earth, and he decided to feature himself in it? Some minutes into that season, he allows the "himself" character to die (as was planned from the start) and the script goes on?

And that, exactly, is the case we have right here. Jesus is a projection of God into human form (a la projection of Jackie Chan into the TV screen), and I will employ this analogy to answer your some questions in my next few posts.

bee444:

@Princekevo

How can the message of the Trinity beyond human comprehension? Our God is not an author of confusion. He says in Psalm 81:10 ", open your mouth wide, and I will fill it". And what was Jesus's response to his disciples when they seem not to understand a thing, Matt 13: 10, 11 and 13
", he answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, [/b]but to them it has not been given I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Ignorance should not be taken as an excuse but if need be, corrected! I posted a topic that demand a straight forward answer, all you could say was for me to work out my salvation[b]( Sorry that was not all i said, Read my post all over again)[/b]. I believe you're better than the response you came up with. If you're that knowledgeable in the things of God, why not tell me yes or no to the above question, back it up with your evidence.
Shalom!

I didnt hide my mouth when i said is beyond human comprehension, just like miracles, and that does no make God an aurthou of confusion. You made a comment that many pastors you asked this question did try to dodge away from it, which i do not doubt. Why did i said the message of trinity is beyond human comprehension. Becoz if you ever try to reason or comprehend it with human understanding you will never understand it. Unless with the help of the spirit, and how can you get this? By working out your Salvation, being at peace with God, and then asking for the spiritual understanding to his word. I believe you are a Christian and i have been on NL for a while, if you are sincerly searching for an answer to your question you will hardly get one here on NL. that is why i suggested initially for you to instead walk out your salvation first, all these things will be revealed unto you. Just like Jesus said in the book of  Matthew 11:25.
         
              "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes".
and in Ephesians 3:2-5 which says,
                 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ

5[b]Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit[/b];

So my brother you can see from the passage everything abt the Gospel of Christ is a mystery to those with canal mind and is beyond their comprehension. That is why i dont get offended or even bother when i read some thread here saying that bible is full of contradiction and errors. Why do they say all that? Becoz bible is beyond their comprehension. As jesus and Paul the apostle said, God hid this great mystery from them, but revealed it to few, who have his spirit.

So brother if you already have your Salvation ask God for his spirit to reveal unto you the mystery of his words, becoz you will never get any reliable answer here on NL.

Back to your question which i already answered in my initial post, my answer is yes, there is nothing wrong with you Saying Jesus Christ is GOd. Just as i even gave you a day to day example to support my answers.

Question:

Biblically your assertion that the son is the father collapses very very easily indeed as we will see:

1. Jesus positively asserted that the FATHER was greater than him - Jn 14:28

Answer:

Let me quote it in perspective (from the AMPLIFIED) so we can understand

Joh 14:28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you [this] before it occurs, so that when it does take place you may believe and have faith in and rely on Me.

This is just like trying to compare the Black OPs CIA agent who was stranded in the African veldt with massive amnesia, to the real Jackie Chan guy who wrote the script? OF COURSE the real Jackie Chan is FAR GREATER and MIGHTIER than that guy in the movie, even if they have the same name! See, for instance, Arnold Schwarzenegger who has acted so many movies, and even has the might of mind to serve as Governor of California, as opposed to his characters who, at the maximum, cannot live for more than 90 minutes or so, and they have to follow a script gullibly no matter what they "want" to do? WHO is greater, then?

Jesus was clearly saying that the disciples ought to be happier, because he was soon stepping out of that restrictive human form, exiting the MOVIE called Earth-life and going to the Father, going off-stage as it were. They ought to be glad if they loved him, because he was stepping out of their (similar) limitations to a point where he could help them when he returns AS the Holy Spirit (as he said, I am coming back to you).

Question 2 in the next post.

2. In the event that you attempt the lame line that he was only saying that because he was here on earth in the physical, then what about Jesus' assertion that he would ascend to be sitted on the right hand side of the father? after being resurrected? This makes it abundantly clear that he is not the same entity at whose rigfht hand he sits. It is made clear in the Gospel that he rose and sat at the right hand side of the Father - Mark 16:19.

Let me start with this Bible verse.

Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Exo 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psa 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


The English language is so weak that meanings have been lost in translation. Thank God for verses like Exo 15:6 and many others that show that the "right hand" of God does not mean towards the eastern cartesian coordinates of his upper limbs!

The RIGHT HAND of God means the place of assurance, security, hope, salvation, power, might, glory, favour etc. i.e. anything good that one can benefit from God, emanates from His right hand!

Jesus "seated at the right hand of God" means that the benefits of our salvation are to be obtained THROUGH Him IN GOD.

As for my Jackie Chan analogy, that is like seeing Jackie Chan on the streets in Hollywood and I scream "Jackie Chan!!! Please sign me an autograph!!" and he smiles and asks "Which movie was your favourite?", and then we get to start talking about His character in the movie "Who am I", about the cool Black-OPs CIA dude. The REASON I am interested in the Jackie Chan guy I am talking to, and any autographs I get from his, is only because of His RIGHT HAND, which is the movie character. If the black OPs guy were not on Jackie Chan's RIGHT HAND, who would give two scoobies (viaro! ) about that Chinese guy? I believe my analogy has sufficed in this case.

Question 3 in next post.

3. Jesus makes it clear that the father has the same relationship with us (being our father) as with Jesus (being his father). This is emphasized by the text in Jn 20:17. Even after Jesus had died and risen, there remains a clear difference between the two as Peter writes - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" - 1 Pet. 1: 3

I already explained what a Father's role is in the development of a son's character. The FATHER Figure does not necessarily mean sexual progeny, it means someone from whom one is DERIVED. John 8:44 records Jesus saying to a group of dissenting Jews "You are of your father the devil", and this was because their actions were derivative of the devil! Just like Michelle Ferre, acting as Christine, a beautiful CIA undercover agent, also acting according to the script, will have Jackie Chan for a FATHER. BUT NOT the Jackie Chan who is a CIA Agent! It will be the Jackie Chan that wrote the movie script.

God became the FATHER of the Jews starting from when he adopted Abraham, and he revealed himself as El-Shaddai in Genesis 17:1. El-Shaddai translates as "the multi-breasted God" meaning that he had more than enough for anyone at any point in time. That is a real Father. When Jesus spoke to Mary, he spoke as one who was in the cast of mankind, and also following the script of life. And Peter referred to him as the FATHER of CHRIST. Very true! Because Christ came to do his will, perfectly. That is what real sons do.

On to question 4.

4. “Of that day no one knows, not the angels, nor the son, but only the Father”. Mark 13:32.

Consider these:

Joh 5:19 So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn].
Joh 5:20 The Father dearly loves the Son and discloses to (shows) Him everything that He Himself does. And He will disclose to Him (let Him see) greater things yet than these, so that you may marvel and be full of wonder and astonishment.

Mat 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.

As I have explained earlier, the Son is the manifestation of the Father, appearing in human form as Christ Jesus. Everything is known to the FATHER, who wrote the script. But He did not make it such that everything will be "known" by the Son in the script.

As John 5:19 clearly states, JESUS WAS FOLLOWING A SCRIPT! The only thing he can do is what the script-writer had determined or allowed him to do.

Let me illustrate with a movie analogy. A re-enactment of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes Mysteries. Set in the early 20th century, would we expect the kind of high-tech gadgets that are available in this 21st century to be employed in the script? No, of course not! Even when the Sherlock Holmes actor KNOWS that by programming a hidden camera into a wristwatch as an embedded nanotechnology system, he can solve the mystery at hand, does he do that? So, isn't it clear that the script-writer knows what could have saved the day, but the SON (the actor in THAT form of acting) does not?

On to Question 5.

5. To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane? To who did he cry "Eli Eli, La ma sabathacni?" Doubtless to the father. In Gethsemane he makes the crucial statement - "Nevertheless not as i will, but as thou wilt" - making it clear that the Father had a different mind, will and selfconsciousness, because if he were the father himself, that prayer would be moot and paradoxical.

Finally, the last question. I already answered this on the other thread, so to save time I will copy and paste it here.

On Gethsemane:

Using my analogy of Keifer Sutherland acting as Jack Bauer in the action series "24", I know you will agree with me (if you watch the series) that many times, Jack Bauer is close to death, and like every other human being, he does not want to die unless he absolutely has to. In a hypothetical scene, he has been left inside an underground chamber while he tries to deactivate a scheduled nuclear warhead, guarded by Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists.

Jack Bauer (in his mind): Not my will, director (The director is Keifer Sutherland), but yours be done. I really want to get out of this scene alive, and save the people of the United States. (frantically tries to deactivate the warhead, while still shooting the Fundamentalist terrorists that are trying to gun him down and prevent him from doing the work)
Casual Observer (someone who has seen the movie last night on MNet): what nonsense?! Doesn't Keifer know that he will not die, and the CTU will rescue him in the next few minutes? Why is he acting like he doesn't know? Are you sure Jack Bauer is Keifer Sutherland? 'Cos he was interviewed last week and he already told us about this scene!
Maven: But of course he has to behave like that, because that is what his role requires! And if Jack Bauer dies in that movie, Keifer Sutherland will never be Jack Bauer again. At least until another movie. Self-preservation is a fundamental human trait, and he's only human to act that way

[b]Furthermore, I want you to note that everything Jesus did and said was for our benefit. If he acted all macho and marched to the cross, how would we know how to deal with circumstances where it seems our will is far easier than God's more complex (difficult?) will? [/b]Here, Jesus was going to undergo a three-day journey that would at first separate him from the Godhead due to the enormity of man's sins. For the FIRST time, the Son of God was going to be divorced, so to speak, from His Father. In actuality, He knew it was temporary, but for our benefit, he had to take it like a man (no pun intended).

Jesus took his disciples along with him so as to show them how it is to battle out such spiritual tussles, but they were just sleeping like logs

Sincerely, I think the entire problem surfaces whenever we try splitting hairs between Jesus and The Father, when he has clearly said that "I and the Father are ONE" (John, at 10:30pm ) for which the Jews attempted to stone him, saying he thus made himself God. In this narrow road of understanding HOW God could be in Heaven and yet be manifest in the flesh, a weary traveller without the help of the Holy Spirit can fall into error and heresy.

Question:

To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane? To who did he cry "Eli Eli, La ma sabathacni?" Doubtless to the father. In Gethsemane he makes the crucial statement - "Nevertheless not as i will, but as thou wilt" - making it clear that the Father had a different mind, will and selfconsciousness, because if he were the father himself, that prayer would be moot and paradoxical.

This attempt to re-enact God's role in Jesus as a movie director acting his own script is, I think, the farthest analogy I can go on with. If I use a simpler analogy, I will severely weaken the very idea of Divinity.

What makes this whole topic so complex is the fact that God put aside his divinity and participated in the flesh as a man. In that man-form, his true nature has not been compromised, but in his fairness and justice, he will act as a man. Nature and spirits will recognize him (e.g. Matthew 8:27, 8:29 etc.) and they will bow, they know their creator even though he wears a mask. But man? No, man will not believe. For the fact that he came in a form like he is, man in his pride will think he's one of them, and they would kill him. But he knew that already.

I will try to be brief.

Really strange then that he wrote the script and also wrote a part in the script where he would address himself begging himself to change the script.

As I said earlier, Jesus was not "begging", it was necessary for him to do that for two reasons:
1. To show the disciples how to handle such situations whenever it arises in their own lives (that was why he asked them to come with him)
2. God will not cheat, and he will never perform at a sub-standard level. So if he cast himself into a script as a man, the man will be expected to fulfill the roles that are required of any such man in that role. That is what it means to be a good actor. Permit the analogy.

IF CHRIST WERE GOD, HE WOULD KNOW VERY WELL EXACTLY WHAT EFFECTS HIS CARRYING SIN WOULD HAVE ON THE GODHEAD -

Accordingly he would not despair that "God had forsaken him. . ." He would know fully well all the divine computations of what was going on. . .

God in His omniscience knew what He had to do in the form of Christ. It was never for once lost on him. Why else would he rebuke Peter when he tried to convince him otherwise, and call him the devil?
1. The very reason Christ cried out this way was because Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22 which would have been immediately recognized by those within earshot, and today by those who know the Psalms. It follows the classic pattern of the Todah Psalms – suffering followed by deliverance. Jesus the Messiah, Son of David, draws attention to this psalm not only because it is a prophecy of his crucifixion, but because he can very confidently give thanks knowing it’s purpose. Raising his voice, he began reciting the Psalms, starting with, and ending with, the two verses below:

Psa 22:1 To the Chief Musician; set to [the tune of] Aijeleth Hashshahar [the hind of the morning dawn]. A Psalm of David. MY GOD, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? [Matt. 27:46.]
--------------------------------please read the rest, twould make my post too long---------------
Psa 22:31 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people yet to be born--that He has done it [that it is finished]! [John 19:30.]

NOTE the beginning and the end were the words recorded in the gospels. Why is that? In a form of symbolism, the gospel writers recorded only the beginning and the end of Christ's words as he hung on the cross, struggling to say the words (due to asphyxiation by virtue of the cross). I believe he said the whole psalm, because when you read it you get an exact description of what happened at the cross.
2. As I said before, he was fulfilling a role. I don't think I need to flog this horse, it's dead and maggot-infested by now.

And why can't God follow his own script? The Bible says in Psa 138:2 that he has magnified his word above ALL his own name! His name there, including his integrity and intents, is subjected to his own Word. So why is is difficult to say that God followed through with his own script in His own wisdom?

God never lost his omniscience. But in cases where his "actor" on earth was not "designed" by the "script" to know something, it would be correct to say that Jesus "did not know" e.g. Mark 13:32. May I use an analogy here? It's like saying that when I look into the mirror, there are some things that my mirror image will know? That in itself is an abstruse statement, can you tell what my mirror image knows? Of course, there are things like my facial expression and my body language that my mirror image can "know", but can it tell you what time I intend to go shopping tomorrow? That analogy is quite poor, but I hope you get my point.

I rest my case. I hope you find your answers.

Here is the entire chapter, from the AMPLIFIED version, for you and anyone else who also wants to read it in perspective of the crucifixion. {I quote the AMPLIFIED because it uses the original Greek and Hebrew texts to unlock subtle meanings, and also includes cross-references.}

Please read with a very open mind, seeing that it was a prophecy and not all the details were fully expressed. For instance, Psa 22:31 in many versions end with "he has done it", but Jesus ends with "it is finished". Considering translation gaps from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek, I think it is acceptable. Such gaps are adequately covered in the AMPLIFIED, but you can compare with the KJV or another, as well.

Psa 22:1 To the Chief Musician; set to [the tune of] Aijeleth Hashshahar [the hind of the morning dawn]. A Psalm of David.
MY GOD, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? [Matt. 27:46.]
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but You answer not; and by night I am not silent or find no rest.
Psa 22:3 But You are holy, O You Who dwell in [the holy place where] the praises of Israel [are offered].
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted (leaned on, relied on You, and were confident) and You delivered them.
Psa 22:5 They cried to You and were delivered; they trusted in, leaned on, and confidently relied on You, and were not ashamed or confounded or disappointed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; I am the scorn of men, and despised by the people. [Matt. 27:39-44.]
Psa 22:7 All who see me laugh at me and mock me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, [Matt. 27:43.]
Psa 22:8 He trusted and rolled himself on the Lord, that He would deliver him. Let Him deliver him, seeing that He delights in him! [Matt. 27:39, 43; Mark 15:29, 30; Luke 23:35.]
Psa 22:9 Yet You are He Who took me out of the womb; You made me hope and trust when I was on my mother's bosoms.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon You from my very birth; from my mother's womb You have been my God.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many [foes like] bulls have surrounded me; strong bulls of Bashan have hedged me in. [Ezek. 39:18.]
Psa 22:13 Against me they opened their mouths wide, like a ravening and roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is softened [with anguish] and melted down within me.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a fragment of clay pottery; [with thirst] my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and You have brought me into the dust of death. [John 19:28.]
Psa 22:16 For [like a pack of] dogs they have encompassed me; a company of evildoers has encircled me, they pierced my hands and my feet. [Isa. 53:7; John 19:37.]
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones; [the evildoers] gaze at me. [Luke 23:27, 35.]
Psa 22:18 They part my clothing among them and cast lots for my raiment (a long, shirtlike garment, a seamless undertunic). [John 19:23, 24.])
Psa 22:19 But be not far from me, O Lord; O my Help, hasten to aid me!
Psa 22:20 Deliver my life from the sword, my dear life [my only one] from the power of the dog [the agent of execution].
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth; for You have answered me [kindly] from the horns of the wild oxen.
Psa 22:22 I will declare Your name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise You. [John 20:17; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 2:12.]
Psa 22:23 You who fear (revere and worship) the Lord, praise Him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify Him. Fear (revere and worship) Him, all you offspring of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither has He hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great congregation. I will pay to Him my vows [made in the time of trouble] before them who fear (revere and worship) Him.
Psa 22:26 The poor and afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise the Lord--they who [diligently] seek for, inquire of and for Him, and require Him [as their greatest need]. May your hearts be quickened now and forever!
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall bow down and worship before You,
Psa 22:28 For the kingship and the kingdom are the Lord's, and He is the ruler over the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the mighty ones upon earth shall eat [in thanksgiving] and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before Him, even he who cannot keep himself alive.
Psa 22:30 Posterity shall serve Him; they shall tell of the Lord to the next generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people yet to be born--that He has done it [that it is finished]! [John 19:30.]

@Mavenb0x

Pls this thread is not a one man show! You've started cumbering your posts with on this thread. I indulge you to convince people and not to force your conviction on them.

I don't want any opinionated person. You using Jackie chan as an illustration of Jesus's divinity is totally out of proportion. I believe what you are trying to say in simple term is, Jesus is God, but not God the Father!
Am i right?

Why the confusion? How would you explain this to people of other faith that Jesus is God and not God the Father? Does it make sense to you. And in God we have sense! How many time (s) is the word TRINITY mentioned in the Bible?

If Jesus is the same as God the Father, then Jesus should also be God the Holy Spirit. I believe God was too busy to have come down Himself to rescue us. What happened to all HIS angels and servants?

Jesus only became the begotten son of God here on earth, read your Bible. We're also son's and daughter's of God.

Anything you're above, you're god or God over that same thing! Likewise Jesus, when he was here on earth, he was the head of the church and Lord over us. He was sent by God just as God would send any of HIS other angels.

If Jesus said God sent him here on earth himself, why would someone then conclude that Jesus is that same God?

bee444, sorry I never saw it like a one-man show thing. This is a discussion board, and I thought everyone was free to express their opinions to whatever extent is necessary to make themselves clear. I wasn't posting for you, but for posterity (no pun intended). If you really read the posts, all the questions in your last post have been answered.

best regards

@toba

I sure love your simplicity and understanding of the scripture, but nonetheless I would want you to read my post again and give me a simple answer.

I believe you're saying Jesus is not GOD, GOD here means the creator of ends of the earth, the maker of you and me, am I right?

@mavenbox, you have spun a lot of outlandish analogies to explain why and how jesus is god. Sincerly i have heard at least a hundred differnt anologies trying to explain the same thing. Tring to synthesize Unity from Trinity and vice versa. For me it all seem like a desperate attempt to reconcile the irroncilable. why would God deliberatly want to confuse us by projection his nature in a way the human mind can never comprehend? It is simple and clear. God is one and one alone. Jesus was sent by God. Any other thing is out of logic and defies human sensibilities. The very core of any religion is the understanding of the nature of God. If we cannot undertand his nature it becomes totally impossible to worship him

Is Jesus GOD?!

NO!

He is the supposed son of God. Thats why he took orders from God, called him Father, sought help from him. His coming to earth was supposed to be him obeying the order of God. In lay mans term, he is the supposed first son of God.

As John 5:19 clearly states, JESUS WAS FOLLOWING A SCRIPT! The only thing he can do is what the script-writer had determined or allowed him to do.

Why do you persist in this UNSPEAKABLY HORRID contradiction? ? ? He is following a script written by A SCRIPT WRITTER AND YET YOU INSIST THAT HE IS GOD? ? ?

IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU ARE JUST DETERMINED TO SWALLOW THIS FOREIGN MYTH AT THE COST OF YOUR OWN LOGICALITY.

bee444:

@Mavenb0x

Pls this thread is not a one man show! You've started cumbering your posts with on this thread. I indulge you to convince people and not to force your conviction on them.

I'm not standing as a PRO for Mavenbox, but your reactive statement there is quite misplaced and was unnecessary. The OP seems to invite posters to "support your answers not only with Biblical references but also with educational evidence (s)" - and that, right after quipping that "Our age rightly demands open-mindedness and intellectual honesty in any investigation" - and yet you complain after someone was trying to follow that convention? How come you were reacting like you were afraid to be open-minded and intellectually honest enough to see the Biblical references in her persuasion?

Would that you had plainly said you were looking for narrow-minded answers that are quite 'politically correct' and leaning towards what you already had made up your mind to believe.

Deep Sight:

As John 5:19 clearly states, JESUS WAS FOLLOWING A SCRIPT! The only thing he can do is what the script-writer had determined or allowed him to do.

Why do you persist in this UNSPEAKABLY HORRID contradiction? ? ? He is following a script written by A SCRIPT WRITTER AND YET YOU INSIST THAT HE IS GOD? ? ?

IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU ARE JUST DETERMINED TO SWALLOW THIS FOREIGN MYTH AT THE COST OF YOUR OWN LOGICALITY.

Why do you prefer your insanity to the discussions of other people? I am beginning to think you're one gross hypocrite that I regretably wasted my time trying to defend with reason. Deism is NOT Christianity, and you don't have to try to deride what you don't subscribe to in the Christian faith just so you could pamper your very evasive deistic worldview.

I think it's about time you, Deep Sight, retire this attitude of resorting to such insane outbursts whenever the Deity of Jesus Christ is being discussed. For long I'd waited to see what you make of your nameless, fictional 'singularity' (aka 'oneness of infinity') god - but it always comes to a deadend. ALWAYS. It never makes any sense to anyone, and your finest intellect could not even begin to scratch the surface at defining that 'god' for you.

This is why you leave your 'oneness of infinity' god as a perennially unfinished product - a linear tarradiddle you introduced to Nairaland that has grown into an 'apeiron borborygmus' without a cure. YET, I don't remember many people lashing out every single time you make recourse to your spurious nomenclatures of the deistic 'O.O.I' ([b]o[/b]neness [b]o[/b]f [b]i[/b]nfinity) god. You may have tried everything from philosophy to maths (the Mathematics which Deists always murder on this forum), and yet your O.O.I. stands furtively defenseless. All we have left is a benign smile of amazement at how very dense Deists could be even at the elementary maths they use in trying to "prove" their 'oneness of infinity' god.

Deep Sight, even where you may not agree with Christians on the Deity of Christ, please have the decency to retain some sanity and let others be. This attitude of yours where you think others are horridly illogical for not squaring with your mendacious stupidity is best left to the craft of smaller minds. . . unless you would like to confirm that yours is helplessly narrower.

One of these days, viaro would like to examine this shallow deistic religion of yours and thoroughly waste it for all the emptiness it's worth. Cry me a river then, if you may. Gather all your best shots and we may feel very sorry for you after I'm done examining your amazing aboulia.
___________________

And oh, lest I forget, a few verses down the John 5:19 you quoted, viaro believes that Jesus Himself identified on EQUALITY with the Father in worship when He stated this in John 5:23 - "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." He did not ask for a lesser degree of that divine honour - but categorically said that the very same honour that men render to the Father is the same that should be rendered to Him the Son. That, for me, is where all arguments cease and all talk against the Deity of Christ is hopelessly unwarranted - whether or not you are yet horridly biting your nails.

the_seeker:

The very core of any religion is the understanding of the nature of God. If we cannot undertand his nature it becomes totally impossible to worship him

Do you, my dear sir, understand the nature of allah in Islam? And just because you don't, should we then take it that your worship of allah is "totally impossible"? I think you're wetting a softer ground for digging a pit where you might fall into yourself.

Deep Sight:

Why do you persist in this UNSPEAKABLY HORRID contradiction? ? ? He is following a script written by A SCRIPT WRITTER AND YET YOU INSIST THAT HE IS GOD? ? ?

IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU ARE JUST DETERMINED TO SWALLOW THIS FOREIGN MYTH AT THE COST OF YOUR OWN LOGICALITY.

I really like this input.  

muhsin:

I really like this input.

I really know why.

viaro:

Do you, my dear sir, understand the nature of allah in Islam? And just because you don't, should we then take it that your worship of allah is "totally impossible"? I think you're wetting a softer ground for digging a pit where you might fall into yourself.

The creed of islam is free from ambiguity and is a true testimony of the unity of God.
We muslims bother and disagree about a lot of things but not about the nature of God. We unanimously agree that he is one and none is comparable to him in any sense whatsoever. Enemies of islam can call him anything from moon god to stone but we stand true to his real nature with one undissenting voice.
On the other hand you christians are still confused about the nature of your God. You are not even sure who is God or not. Afterall a muslim did not start this thread and many of the comments by fellow christians show thay do not accept jesus as God. Why is that? Did these christians get their concept of the unity of God from the Quran? No! They got this idea from the same bible that you read. The only differnce is that they have clear unquivocal verses to back their point while you and the likes of maven and nuclearboy have to resort to story telling and conjuring baseless analogies to prove a dogma that makes non logical sense.
When all logic has failed, you guys resort to claiming that it takes the holyspirit to understand the mysteries involved. It is just unfortunate that the holy spirit does not post post on NL.

viaro:

Why do you persist in this UNSPEAKABLY HORRID contradiction? ? ? He is following a script written by A SCRIPT WRITTER AND YET YOU INSIST THAT HE IS GOD? ? ?

IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU ARE JUST DETERMINED TO SWALLOW THIS FOREIGN MYTH AT THE COST OF YOUR OWN LOGICALITY.

Why do you prefer your insanity to the discussions of other people? I am beginning to think you're one gross hypocrite that I regretably wasted my time trying to defend with reason. Deism is NOT Christianity, and you don't have to try to deride what you don't subscribe to in the Christian faith just so you could pamper your very evasive deistic worldview.

I think it's about time you, Deep Sight, retire this attitude of resorting to such insane outbursts whenever the Deity of Jesus Christ is being discussed. For long I'd waited to see what you make of your nameless, fictional 'singularity' (aka 'oneness of infinity') god - but it always comes to a deadend. ALWAYS. It never makes any sense to anyone, and your finest intellect could not even begin to scratch the surface at defining that 'god' for you.

This is why you leave your 'oneness of infinity' god as a perennially unfinished product - a linear tarradiddle you introduced to Nairaland that has grown into an 'apeiron borborygmus' without a cure. YET, I don't remember many people lashing out every single time you make recourse to your spurious nomenclatures of the deistic 'O.O.I' ([b]o[/b]neness [b]o[/b]f [b]i[/b]nfinity) god. You may have tried everything from philosophy to maths (the Mathematics which Deists always murder on this forum), and yet your O.O.I. stands furtively defenseless. All we have left is a benign smile of amazement at how very dense Deists could be even at the elementary maths they use in trying to "prove" their 'oneness of infinity' god.

Deep Sight, even where you may not agree with Christians on the Deity of Christ, please have the decency to retain some sanity and let others be. This attitude of yours where you think others are horridly illogical for not squaring with your mendacious stupidity is best left to the craft of smaller minds. . . unless you would like to confirm that yours is helplessly narrower.

One of these days, viaro would like to examine this shallow deistic religion of yours and thoroughly waste it for all the emptiness it's worth. Cry me a river then, if you may. Gather all your best shots and we may feel very sorry for you after I'm done examining your amazing aboulia.
___________________

And oh, lest I forget, a few verses down the John 5:19 you quoted, viaro believes that Jesus Himself identified on EQUALITY with the Father in worship when He stated this in John 5:23 - "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." He did not ask for a lesser degree of that divine honour - but categorically said that the very same honour that men render to the Father is the same that should be rendered to Him the Son. That, for me, is where all arguments cease and all talk against the Deity of Christ is hopelessly unwarranted - whether or not you are yet horridly biting your nails.

UNSURPRISINGLY, YOU DID EVERYTHING - RAIN INSULTS ON MY OWN CREED, CALL IT SHALLOW, IMPUGN MY INTEGRITY - ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING - EXCEPT ADDRESS THE CONTRADICTION I POINTED OUT. WHY ARE YOU SO EMOTIONALLY DEFENSIVE VIARO?

That contradiction was simple; she stated that Jesus was following a script written by a script-writer - And yet insists that he himself is the Script Writer. Can you wrap your head around that Viaro? I didn't think so. You don't need to be so defensive simply becasue the fact that you worship a fellow human being as God is exposed/ Tell me how that is better than worshipping Guru Maharaji?

P.S - THE ONENESS OF INFINITY IS NOT A SUBJECT THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED IN THE OFF-HAND MANNER THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO DISCUSS YOUR PAGAN TRINITARIAN MYTH.

Be that as it may i have written the prose during the week and will post it soon.

Jesus was following a script written by a script-writer - And yet insists that he himself is the Script Writer.

I forgot to add that it becomes even more inane and laughable when one considers the fact that he supposedly tried to change the script mid-way in Gethsemane by praying to himself to change the plot - a fact that you Viaro - lied that he did not do, which argument was kicked to dust here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-355093.64.html#msg4989271

the_seeker:

The creed of islam is free from ambiguity and is a true testimony of the unity of God.

I don't think you get it. I was not out looking for any creeds of Islam - I know far too many to even begin to bother, and as many creeds in Islam exist to divide Muslims even over the very nature of the allah of Islam. Perhaps you never carefully thought through your own answer before clicking on the 'reply' botton; and one thing that might help you is to carefully weigh the meaning of the term 'nature' before seeking to use it to query anyone else.

We muslims bother and disagree about a lot of things but not about the nature of God. We unanimously agree that he is one and none is comparable to him in any sense whatsoever. Enemies of islam can call him anything from moon god to stone but we stand true to his real nature with one undissenting voice.

What is allah's 'real nature'? You are still very, very far from grasping the meaning of 'nature', let alone talk about the 'real nature' of anything. Being 'one' does not tell you anything about allah's nature - you're only arguing a creed, not a nature of anything about allah. There are many things that could be said to be 'one' and yet not much could be said about their real nature. Besides, not all Muslims in every shade of Islam agrees about your resolute idea about the creed of allah (tawhid - it is merely a doctrine, and it does not explain anything about nature).

On the other hand you christians are still confused about the nature of your God. You are not even sure who is God or not.

Thank you. It is only idiots who talk the way you do. You have not addressed anything about your nature of allah, and passing off a creed instead of the 'nature' does not do your job for you before you begin to accuse Christians of being confused. Are you that dense? Twerp. Please go back to school and get a real education, not that silly thing they gave you in one madrassa where you don't even know what the meaning of nature actually is.

Afterall a muslim did not start this thread and many of the comments by fellow christians show thay do not accept jesus as God. Why is that?

Of course, Christians disagree on many things - even as you have admitted that Muslims disagree on many things (second quote above) - so why does it surprise you that Christians also disagree? There's hardly ANY worldview where adherents agree on EVERYTHING - you search and you will come back to affirm same. If Christians disagree on the Deity of Christ, why does that constitute grounds for your idiocy to start deriding them? You just have not been to Muslim forums outside Nairaland where Muslims disgaree to the point of blue murder on the most basic of their own tenets - that is prolly why you sit back like a twerp talking bunk. Besides, when you visit some of those forums, you will be amazed that it is Muslims disagreeing with Muslims about those things, with no contributing fuel from non-Muslims. Just because some Christians are disagreeing on this matter has suddenly become your most happy moment, no?

Did these christians get their concept of the unity of God from the Quran? No! They got this idea from the same bible that you read. The only differnce is that they have clear unquivocal verses to back their point while you and the likes of maven and nuclearboy have to resort to story telling and conjuring baseless analogies to prove a dogma that makes non logical sense.

I don't think you can read. Where did I get John 5:23 from, you consumate daft? I'm not given to story-telling in discussions on the Deity of Christ. What brought me here is this retard attitude from some of you who think that you have the birthright to tell others what to believe about their own faiths when you do not even make any move to subscribing to that same religion. If Christians do not hold Islamic view, they are 'confused' or 'horridly illogical' - that has gone on unchecked on Nairaland for far too long that it beggars intelligence to see how you buffoons just go on and on and yet have not the slightest clue what you want to talk about in your own worldviews. You, for instance, just don't have a clue about the nature of allah in Islam, and you think that plucking off a creed of tawhid would do the job for you? If you chose to address the issue without derisive remarks, you won't read me in this tough stance. Dummkopf.

When all logic has failed, you guys resort to claiming that it takes the holyspirit to understand the mysteries involved. It is just unfortunate that the holy spirit does not post post on NL.

True, and that is not a claim that was derived from thin air. The Bible says clearly that understanding God's counsels comes through the action of the Holy Spirit: "Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you" (Prov. 1:23). So what is the problem in that?

Besides, the Christian faith transcends logic - it is not constrained within the limits of logic. Ironically, many of your types who talk about 'logic' haven't the slightest clue what that word means, or what type of logic you even want to begin to apply in your drivel.

Another thing is that Muslims also make the same claims repeatedly that non-Muslims would never understand anything outside what allah deems fit to convey to anyone. We often have read from your comrades such quotes as allah guides whom he will (Q. 22:16) rather than guide everyone. The whole point in your Islam is that the mullahs believe (on the authority of the authentic hadiths) that even if someone is actually right, they are still wrong - regardless how right they may be! Is that 'logical' to you?

Unfortunately, allah does not post on Nairaland, nor anywhere else. The best places he prolly knows how to post his non-translatable quranic verses are on materials that goats can devour under Aisha's bed. Lunkhead.