The question of Free Will is one that has puzzled the Intelligentsia for centuries. The question has been raised whether man is inner-determined and thus free, or determined by external causes over which he has no control, in which case free will is nothing but an illusion. To address the subject, philosophy has thrown up determinism, indeterminism, compatibilism, incompatibilism, hard determinism, soft determinism, libertarianism and so forth. I consider it an interesting subject for discussion, and for that reason I want us to analyse Mark Twain's essay, WHAT IS A MAN?, which describes man as a machine, determined by externally generated causes, with no free will.

I know some of us must have read the essay, nevertheless I'll be posting the conversation between the Young man and the old man, so we can share our thoughts on every single one of their arguments. IS MAN TRULY A MACHINE? Anyone who has read Nietzsche will see parallels with Nietzsche's metaphysical concept of Will to Power.

1

a. Man the Machine. b. Personal Merit

[The Old Man and the Young Man had been conversing. The Old Man had asserted that the human being is merely a machine, and nothing more. The Young Man objected, and asked him to go into particulars and furnish his reasons for his position.]

Old Man. What are the materials of which a steam-engine is made?

Young Man. Iron, steel, brass, white-metal, and so on.

Old Man. Where are these found?

Young Man. In the rocks.

Old Man. In a pure state?

Young Man. No--in ores.

Old Man. Are the metals suddenly deposited in the ores?

Young Man. No--it is the patient work of countless ages.

Old Man. You could make the engine out of the rocks themselves?

Young Man. Yes, a brittle one and not valuable.

Old Man. You would not require much, of such an engine as that?

Young Man. No--substantially nothing.

Old Man. To Make a fine and capable engine, how would you proceed?

Young Man. Drive tunnels and shafts into the hills; blast out the irone ore; crush it, smelt it, reduce it to pig-iron; put some of it through the Bessemer process and make steel out of it. Mine and treat and combine several metals of which brass is made.

Old Man. Then?

Young Man. Out of the perfected result, build the fine engine.

Old Man. You would require much of this one?

Young Man. Oh, indeed yes.

Old Man. It could drive lathes, drills, planers, punches, polishers, in a world all the cunning machines of a great factory?

Young Man. It could.

Old Man. What could the stone engine do?

Young Man. Drive a sewing-machine, possibly--nothing more, perhaps.

Old Man. Men would admire the other engine and rapturously praise it?

Young Man. Yes.

Old Man. But not the stone one?

Young Man. No.

Old Man. The merits of the metal machine would be far above those of the stone one?

Young Man. Of course.

Old Man. Personal merits?

Young Man. PERSONAL merits? How do you mean?

Old Man. It would be personally entitled to the credit of its performance?

Young Man. The engine? Certainly not.

Old Man. Why not?

Young Man. Because its performance is not personal. It is the result of the law of construction. It is not a MERIT that it does things which it is set to do--it can't HELP doing them.

Old Man. And it is not a personal demerit in the stone machine that it does so little?

Young Man. Certainly not. It does no more and no less than the law of its make permits and compels it to do. There is nothing PERSONAL about it; it cannot choose. In this process of "working up to the matter" is it your idea to work up to the proposition that man and a machine are about the same thing, and that there is no personal merit in the performance of either?

Old Man. Yes--but do not be offended; I am meaning no offense. What makes the grand difference between the stone engine and the steel one? Shall we call it training, education? Shall we call the stone engine a savage and steel one a civilized man? The original rock contained the sruff of which the steel one was built--but along with a lot of sulphur and stone and other obstructing inborn heredities, brought down from the old geologic ages--prejudices, let us call them. Prejudices which nothing within the rock itself had either POWER to remove or any DESIRE to remove. Will you take note of that phrase?

Young Man. Yes. I have written it down; "Prejudices which nothing within the rock itself had the power to remove or any desire to remove." Go on.

Old Man. Prejudices must be removed by OUTSIDE INFLUENCES or not at all. Put that down.

Young Man. Very well; "Must be removed by outside influences or not at all." Go on.

Old Man. The iron's prejudice against ridding itself of the cumbering rock. To make it more exact, the iron's absolute INDIFFERENCE as to whether the rock be removed or not. Then comes the OUTSIDE INFLUENCE and grinds the rock to powder and sets the ore free. The IRON in the ore is still captive. An OUTSIDE INFLUENCE smelts it free of the clogging ore. The iron is emancipated iron, now, but indifferent to the progress. An OUTSIDE INFLUENCE beguiles it into the Bessemer furnace and refines it into steel of the first quality. It is educated, now--its training is complete. And it has reached its limit. By no possible process can it be educated into GOLD. Will you set that down?

Interesting

Young Man. Yes. "Everythings has its limit--iron ore cannot be educated into gold."

Old Man. There are gold men, and tin men, and copper men, and leaden men, and steel men, and so on--and each has the limitations of his nature, his heredities, his training, and his environment. You can build engines out od each of these metals, and they will all perform, but you must not require the weak ones to do equal work with the strong ones. In each case, to get the best results, you must free the metal from its obstructing prejudicial ones by education--smelting, refining, and so forth.

Young Man. You have arrived at man, now?

Old Man. Yes. Man the machine--man the impersonal engine. Whatsoever a man is, is die to his MAKE, and to the INFLUENCES brought to bear upon it by his heredities, his habitat, his associations. He is moved, directed, COMMANDED, by EXTERIOR influences--SOLELY. He ORIGINATES nothing, not even a thought.

Young Man. Oh, come! Where did I get my opinion that this which you are talking is all foolishness?

Old Man. It is a quite natural opinion--indeed an inevitable opinion--but YOU did not create the materials out of which it is formed. They are odds and ends of thoughts, impressions, feelings, gathered unconsciously from a thousand books, a thousand conversations, and from streams of thought and feeling which have flowed down into your heart and brain out of the hearts and brains of centuries of ancestors. PERSONALLY you did not create even the smallest microscopic fragment of the materials out od which your opinion is made; and personally you cannot claim even the slender merit of PUTTING THE BORROWED MATERIALS TOGETHER. That was done AUTOMATICALLY--by your mental machinery, in strict accordance with the law of that machinery's construction. And you not only did not make that machinery yourself, but you have NOT EVEN ANY COMMAND OVER IT.

Young Man. This is too much. You think I could have formed no opinion but that one?

Old Man. Spontaneously? No. And YOU DID NOT fORM THAT ONE; your machinery did it for you--automatically and instantly, without reflection or the need of it.

Young Man. Suppose I had reflected? How then?

Old Man. Suppose you try?

Young Man. (AFTER A QUARTER OF AN HOUR.) I have reflected.

Old Man. You mean you have tried to change your opinion--as an experiment?

Young Man. Yes.

Old Man. With success?

Young Man. No. It remains the same; it is impossible to change it.

Old Man. I am sorry, but you see, yourself, that your mind is merely a machine, nothing more. You have no command over it, it has no command over itself--it is worked SOLELY FROM THE OUTSIDE. That is the law of its make; it is the law of all machines.

Young Man. Can't I EVER change one of these automatic opinions?

Old Man. No. You can't yourself, but EXTERIOR INFLUENCES can do it,

Young Man. And exterior ones ONLY?

Old Man. Yes--exterior ones only.

Young Man. That position is untenable--I may say ludicrously untenable.

Old Man. What makes you think so?

Young Man. I don't merely think it. I know it. Suppose I resolve to enter upon a course of thought, and study, and reading, with the deliberate purpose of changing that opinion; suppose I succeed. THAT is not the work of an exterior impulse, the whole of it is mine and personal; for I originated the project.

Old Man. Not a shred of it. IT GREW OUT OF YOUR TALK WITH ME. But for that it would not have occurred to you. No man ever originates anything. All his thoughts, all his impulses, come FROM THE OUTSIDE.

Young Man. It's an exasperating subject. The FIRST man had original thoughts, anyway; there was nobody to draw from.

Old Man. It is a mistake. Adam's thoughts came to him from the outside. YOU have a fear of death. You did not invent that--you got it from outside, from talking and teaching. Adam had ho fear of death--none in the world.

Young Man. Yes, he had.

Old Man. When he was created?

Young Man. No.

Old Man. When, then?

Young Man. When he was threatened with it.

Old Man. Then it came from OUTSIDE. Adam is quite big enough; let us not try to make a god of him. NONE BUT GODS HAVE EVER HAD A THOUGHT WHICH DID NOT COME FROM OUTSIDE. Adam probably had a good head, but it was of no sort of use to him until it was filled up FROM THE OUTSIDE. He was not able to invent the triflingest little thing with it. He had not a shadow of a notion of the difference between good and evil--he had to get the idea FROM THE OUTSIDE. Neither he nor Eve was able to originate the idea that it was immodest to go naked; the knowledge came in with the apple FROM THE OUTSIDE. A man's brain is so constructed that IT CAN ORIGINATE NOTHING WHATSOEVER. It can only use material obtained OUTSIDE. It is merely a machine; and it works automatically, not by will-power. IT HAS NO COMMAND OVER ITSELF, ITS OWNER HAS NO COMMAND OVER IT.

Young Man. Well, never mind Adam: but certainly Shakespeare's creations--

Old Man. No, you mean Shakespeare's IMITATIONS. Shakespeare created nothing. He correctly observed, and he marvelously painted. He exactly portrayed people whom GOD had created; but he created none himself. Let us spare him the slander of charging him with trying. Shakespeare could not create. HE WAS A MACHINE, AND MACHINES DO NOT CREATE.

Young Man. Where WAS his excellence, then?

Old Man. In this. He was not a sewing-machine, like you and me; he was a Gobelin loom. The threads and the colors came into him FROM ThE OUTSIDE; outside influences, suggestions, EXPERIENCES (reading, seeing plays, playing plays, borrowing ideas, and so on), framed the patterns in his mind and started up his complex and admirable machinery, and IT AUTOMATICALLY turned out that pictured and gorgeous fabric which still compels the astonisment of the world. If Shakespeare had been born and bred on a barren and unvisited rock in the ocean his mighty intellect would have had no OUTSIDE MATERIAL to work with, and could have invented none; and NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCES, teachings, moldings, persuasions, inspirations, of a valuable sort, and could have invented none; and so Shakespeare would have produced nothing. In Turkey he would have produced something--something up to the highest limit of Turkish influences, associations, and training. In France he would have produced something better--something up to the highest limit of the French influences and training. In England he rose to the highest limit attainable through the OUTSIDE HELPS AFFORDED BY THAT LAND'S IDEALS, INFLUENCES, AND TRAINING. You and I are but sewing-machines. We must turn out what we can; we must do our endeavor and care nothing at all when the unthinking reproach us for not turning out Gobelins.

Young Man. And so we are mere machines! And machines may not boast, nor feel proud of their performance, nor claim personal merit for it, nor applause and praise. It is an infamous doctrine.

Old Man. It isn't a doctrine, it is merely a fact.

Young Man. I suppose, then, there is no more merit in being brave than in being a coward?

Old Man. PERSONAL merit? No. A brave man does not CREATE his bravery. He is entitled to no personal credit for possessing it. It is born to him. A baby born with a billion dollars--where is the personal merit in that? A baby born with nothing--where is the personal demerit in that? The one is fawned upon, admired, worshipped, by sychophants, the other is neglected and despised--where is the sense in it?

Young Man. Sometimes a timid man sets himself the task of conquering his cowardice and becoming brave--and succeeds. What do you say to that?

Old Man. That it shows the value of TRAINING IN RIGHT DIRECTIONS OVER TRAINING IN WRONG ONES. Inestimably valuable is training, influence, education, in right directions--TRAINING ONE'S SELF-APPROBATION TO ELEVATE ITS IDEALS.

Young Man. But as to merit--personal merit of the victorious coward's project and achievement?

Old Man. There isn't any. In the world's view he is a worthier man than he was before, but HE didn't achieve the change--the merit of it is not his.

Young Man. Whose, then?

Old Man. His MAKE, and the influences which wrought upon it from outside.

Young Man. His make?

Old Man. To start with, he was NOT utterly and completely a coward, or the influences would have had nothing to work upon. He was not afraid of a cow, though perhaps of a bull: not afraid of a woman, but afraid of a man. There was something to build upon. There was a SEED. No seed, no plant. Did he make that seed himself, or was it born in him? It was no merit of HIS that the seed was there.

Young Man. Well, anyway, the CULTIVATING it, the resolution to cultivate it, was meritorious, and he originated that.

Old Man. He did nothing of the kind. It came whence ALL impulses, good or bad, come--from OUTSIDE. If that timid man had lived all his life in a community of human rabbits, had never read of brave deeds, had never heard speak of them, had never heard any one praise them nor express envy of the heroes that had done them, he would have had no more idea of bravery than Adam had of modesty, and it could never by any possibility have occurred to him to RESOLVE to become brave. He COULD NOT ORIGINATE THE IDEA--it had to come to him from the OUTSIDE. And so, when he heard bravery extolled and cowardice derided, it woke him up. He was ashamed. Perhaps his sweetheart turned up her nose and said, "I am told that you are a coward!" It was not HE that turned a new leaf--she did it for him. HE must not strut around in the merit of it--it is not his.

Young Man. But, anyway, he reared the plant after she watered the seed.

Old Man. No. OUTSIDE INFLUENCES reared it. At the command--and trembling--he marched out into the field--with other soldiers and in the daytime, not alone and in the dark. He had the INFLUENCE OF EXAMPLE, he drew courage from his comrade' courage; he was afraid, and wanted to run, but he did not dare; he was AFRAID to run, with all those soldiers looking on. He was progressing, you see--the moral fear of shame had risen superior to the physical fear of harm. By the end of the campaign experience will have taught him that not ALL who go into battle get hurt--an outside influence which will be helpful to him; and he will also have learned how sweet it is to be praised for courage and be huzza'd at with tear-choked voices as the war-worm regiment marches past the worshipping multitude with flags flying and the drums beating. After that he will be as securely brave as any veteran in the army--and there will not be a shade nor suggestion of PERSONAL MERIT in it anywhere; it will all have come from the OUTSIDE. The Victoria Cross breeds more heroes than--

Young Man. Hang it, where is the sense in his becoming brave if he is to get no credit for it.

Old Man. Your question will answer itself presently. It involves an important detail of man's make which we have not yet touched upon.

Young Man. What detail is that?

Old Man. The impluse which moves a person to do things--the only impluse that ever moves a person to do a thing.

Young Man. The ONLY one! Is there but one?

Old Man. That is all. There is only one.

Young Man. Well, certainly that is a strange enough doctrine. What is the sole impulse that ever moves a person to do a thing?

Old Man. The impulse to CONTENT HIS OWN SPIRIT - the NECESSITY of contenting his own spirit and WINNING ITS APPROVAL.

Young Man. Oh, come, that won't do!

Old Man. Why won't it?

Young Man. Because it puts him in the attitude of always looking out for his own comfort and advantage; whereas an unselfish man often does a thing solely for another person's good when it is a positive disadvantage to himself.

Old Man. It is a mistake. The act must do HIM good, FIRST; otherwise he will not do it. He may THINK he is doing it solely for the other person's case, but it is not so; he is contenting his own spirit first--the other person's benefit has to always take SECOND place.

Young Man. What a fantastic idea! What becomes of self-sacrifice? Please answer me that.

Old Man. What is self-sacrifice?

Young Man. The doing good to another person where no shadow nor suggestion of benefit to one's self can result from it.

bennyann felixomor JackBizzle sonofluc1fer MrMontella Pastafarian ColdHardTruth Edoniscar EyehateGod ftechclass adepeter26 Ishilove akintom luvmijeje hopeFulLandlord Wilgrea7 Johnydon22 analice107 Spacetacular AnonyNymous KingEbukasBlog Jiggaz CoolUsername SirWere lepasharon jonbellion randomperson otemanuduno HardMirror dalaman Frank317AHCB Billyonaire LoJ Sarassin Ifenes hahn CatfishBilly DeepSight Joshthefirst PastorAIO DeepEyes OtemAtum

Land for sale

Okay... i read the first paragraph only...

Well..... Man is a spiritual being that has a Soul and lives in a Body. You can't liken man to a machine though cos Machines don't have a soul....

Concerning freewill, yes every man has freewill which we call choice. The right to choose. Nothing is forced upon you in this life when it comes to things....

The Human Body is merely a physical vehicle designed for soul to use to steer around the Earth and fulfill its Soul Mission. The real us as Soul do not live on this body. We visit here during wakefulness and move to other dimensions during sleep.

In fact, while we are here, the thoughts on our mind, are broadcasted to our consciousness from our star system where our real self reside. We have ranges of choices to make, and the result of each of the choices are already programmed to follow every action we take.

As Human corporal self, we have no free will, the WILL is just a Choice from the options presented. We can not make any choice out of the options presented.

Our body is not our residence, it is just one of our many transportation vehicles, and this one is designed for Mission Earth. When we sleep and dream, we have a totally different kind of body, and actually choose ranges of bodies depending on where our consciousness shifts to, but we made a decision not to see those bodies because it will startle us into shock, that is why we do not see our bodies at dream, we merely have a conscious awareness of our perceptions.

Someone warned that what I teach people are demonic on a thread today, I merely laughed. I wish that person knows that when we sleep, our consciousness moves into other bodies which could be viewed as demonic and do brutal things based on our Soul Archetypes.

Yet, some of us have vampiric Souls, a case in point are narcissists, who are actually demonic gods and goddesses in other dimensions but normal humans during wakefulness.

We are merely machines. We are merely robots. We are controlled by sets of choices. Choices we just have to make to arrive at the greatest version of ourselves.

The core of all, is the same. ETs and other Entities have the same core like us. Our bodies are merely different based on the planet we choose to dwell at any point in time. The brain is a complex battery with consciousness modulating functionality.

We are not what we think we are.

The wars going on, on this planet is the continuation of the wars in the Bible. It is the same entities in different bodies. We are here to become greater Gods.

As Man is, God once was. As God is, Man may be.
Ye are Gods, and Children of the Most High God.

Let's start the journey and hope that we come back safe.

jiggaz:
Okay... i read the first paragraph only...

Well..... Man is a spiritual being that has a Soul and lives in a Body. You can't liken man to a machine though cos Machines don't have a soul....

What is a soul? What is it made of? How does it interact with the body? Where is it located? Is it made of matter? Or is it immaterial? If the soul is matter then it is amenable to study by Science. If it isn't, how can something immaterial exist in the material domain? How can something non-physical exist in the physical DIMENSIONAL domain of space, time and matter? Isn't that a CATEGORY ERROR? Anything existing within space and time ipso facto becomes physical, and is therefore amenable to scientific study. It has nowhere to hide!

Concerning freewill, yes every man has freewill which we call choice. The right to choose. Nothing is forced upon you in this life when it comes to things....

But you're a Christian who believes in the concept of a divine plan, correct? If there's only a divine plan and its unfolding, doesn't that make free will an illusion? Everyone MUST act according to the role assigned to them in the plan. They're mere puppets acting a script. So, where's the free will? You believe in the concept of prophecy, don't you? For prophecies to be true, the future MUST already exist. Everything that will happen must be already fixed and cast in stone which God then reveals to whomever he wants as prophecy. If predestination is FALSE, then prophecies MUST also be false, then NO ONE CAN KNOW the future. If prophecies are true, then predestination MUST be true, which means THE FUTURE ALREADY exists, in which case all your actions and choices are ALREADY DETERMINED, therefore you have NO free will.

Billyonaire:
The Human Body is merely a physical vehicle designed for soul to use to steer around the Earth and fulfill its Soul Mission. The real us as Soul do not live on this body. We visit here during wakefulness and move to other dimensions during sleep.

WHAT IS A SOUL? Is it physical? If not, how does it exist IN a physical universe made of MATTER? Of what is a soul composed? The physical particles of quantum physics? Muons, electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and the likes? Then, it's PHYSICAL! So, WHERE IS THIS SOUL? How does a physical soul hide inside a physical body? In fact, if it is a physical system of it's own, why does it need a physical body? What is the soul's MISSION on earth?

In fact, while we are here, the thoughts on our mind, are broadcasted to our consciousness from our star system where our real self reside. We have ranges of choices to make, and the result of each of the choices are already programmed to follow every action we take.

Our real souls reside IN PHYSICAL STARS in the physical universe? Does that make them material? I ask again, DEFINE a soul. What is it?

As Human corporal self, we have no free will, the WILL is just a Choice from the options presented. We can not make any choice out of the options presented.

Options presented? BY WHOM? And if you're THE ONE WHO makes the choice out of the given options, then you have free will. If I was given an apple, an orange, and a cookie, and asked to choose from the three options, then I reached out for the apple, but changed my mind at the last second and went for the cookie, would you say I have no free will?

Billyonaire:


Our body is not our residence, it is just one of our many transportation vehicles, and this one is designed for Mission Earth. When we sleep and dream, we have a totally different kind of body, and actually choose ranges of bodies depending on where our consciousness shifts to, but we made a decision not to see those bodies because it will startle us into shock, that is why we do not see our bodies at dream, we merely have a conscious awareness of our perceptions.

Are you saying that the soul is some physical "thing" that can reside IN physical bodies, and even occupy MULTIPLE physical bodies? How does that work? What's the MECHANISM? Can you give a detailed explanation of the process? And I ask again, if the soul is just another INDEPENDENT & COMPLEX physical system of its own that exists IN the physical universe and can even move about throughout the cosmos, uninhibited, as it pleases, why does it need another physical body?

Someone warned that what I teach people are demonic on a thread today, I merely laughed. I wish that person knows that when we sleep, our consciousness moves into other bodies which could be viewed as demonic and do brutal things based on our Soul Archetypes.

"When we sleep, our consciousness moves into our bodies?" BODIES? What does this statement mean? What is consciousness? What is a soul? What is a body? What is the relationship between them?

Yet, some of us have vampiric Souls, a case in point are narcissists, who are actually demonic gods and goddesses in other dimensions but normal humans during wakefulness.

So when we sleep, we inhabit OTHER DIMENSIONS? What are other dimensions? Where are they? How do they coexist with this one? Are they infinite or finite? Where do they end? And what exists OUTSIDE of all dimensions combined?

We are merely machines. We are merely robots. We are controlled by sets of choices. Choices we just have to make to arrive at the greatest version of ourselves.

Does that mean we're designed? Programmed? By whom?

The core of all, is the same. ETs and other Entities have the same core like us. Our bodies are merely different based on the planet we choose to dwell at any point in time. The brain is a complex battery with consciousness modulating functionality.

We are not what we think we are.

The wars going on, on this planet is the continuation of the wars in the Bible. It is the same entities in different bodies. We are here to become greater Gods.

As Man is, God once was. As God is, Man may be.
Ye are Gods, and Children of the Most High God.

So, our purpose is to become Gods? Where do Gods reside? In star systems in the physical universe, or vague, ambigious, undefined "other dimensions"? And once we've become Gods WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

TheIlluminatus:
WHAT IS A SOUL? Is it physical? If not, how does it exist IN a physical universe made of MATTER? Of what is a soul composed? The physical particles of quantum physics? Muons, electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and the likes? Then, it's PHYSICAL! So, WHERE IS THIS SOUL? How does a physical soul hide inside a physical body? In fact, if it is a physical system of it's own, why does it need a physical body? What is the soul's MISSION on earth?

Our real souls reside IN PHYSICAL STARS in the physical universe? Does that make them material? I ask again, DEFINE a soul. What is it?

Options presented? BY WHOM? And if you're THE ONE WHO makes the choice out of the given options, then you have free will. If I was given an apple, an orange, and a cookie, and asked to choose from the three options, then I reached out for the apple, but changed my mind at the last second and went for the cookie, would you say I have no free will?

Your questions are thought-provoking, yet the answers to those questions, will be welcomed from you. If I am wrong, then I stand to be corrected, for we are on the same journey, the journey to unravel the truth.

Soul is non-physical entity. Whose origin is from our star systems in the Cosmos.

I am of the notion that Soul is made of light. And every Soul resides in a star system and projects to our corporal physical body via a specialized circuit on our smartbody, the framework serves as interconnection between our corporal body and Soul for daily activities of the day, and when we sleep, soul projects out of the body to other dimensions outside of space and time and returns at wakefulness. I am of the notion that the SmartBody is what powers the body keeping it breathing until the Soul returns every other morning.

My understanding of 'Spirit' at this stage is nano-microscopic physicality. Tiniest level of particulate nature that no physical instrument can see or calibrate. At that level of matter is wave in nature. I could say, everything spiritual is an aspect of physicality. But beyond the spectrum that physical instruments can dictate and tiny enough to pass through physical objects. I stand corrected.

There is no purpose without a mission. The purpose of soul's incarnation on Earth is its mission, everyone has a different mission which one must uncover to make sense of it all.

Soul is made of light, so it needs Physical body to move through Earth because of the Electro-magnetic radiations which could alter the nature of soul when exposed to the radiation. The Home of Soul is on its star system, and it projects a part of it to the corporal self at wakeful consciousness every other day, and projects back to the stars at sleep transmit data accumulate during the day and returns for yet the next day's adventure. I stand corrected.

Soul is the real me, and the real you, our names are just Identities behind the entities. We have been different things at different life times.

Choices are options presented to us every other day. We are presented with these choices by our Higher Self. To explain it further, I will discuss about Ego, a construct of the mind is what most of us has come to know ourselves as. On the Soul aspect of us, after many incarnations, we have also developed a super-soul with experiences of many incarnations. That is our Higher Self, I assume our Higher Self presents these Choices to us, as a Supervisor and guides us through this life in making decisions on the available choices. But we are allowed the liberty to make choices based on the physical ego. But we are guided to make a decision that will be beneficial to the Higher Self. The Spiritual Ego. I stand corrected.

We do not have a choice outside the options that life presents. Except may be, end it all and return back to source.



I need your inputs.

Old man is wrong. Thought, does not come from extrinsic machinery of mind. Thought is independent and intrinsic, spontaneous expression of consciousness.

Thought can be INFLUENCED. But choice is independent, from spontaneous ones, to reflective ones. I have arrived at this conclusion, based on personal intrinsic reflections as well as reflections on the thoughts of others.

@theilluminatus: what is the mind? The mind is the inner voice that reads this words to you. It is the consciousness, the aliveness and intelligence that makes sense of a bunch of symbols of sensory input that you interpret as LOGICAL LANGUAGE.

interesting

interesting thread

following

Joshthefirst:
Old man is wrong. Thought, does not come from extrinsic machinery of mind. Thought is independent and intrinsic, spontaneous expression of consciousness.

Hi. Thanks for your input.

The Old Man argues that man has never had an original thought since his thoughts and reflections are reactions to external information and are therefore determined by external causes.

I believe you must have heard of the TABULA RASA theory which states that mind is originally blank, a white canvas to be painted in any color by the external world. It denies the concept of innatism, and rather asserts that every knowledge and thought that exists in the mind is gotten from experience and perception which are externally generated. But the Old Man's argument is NOT entirely predicated on this theory. While the tabula rasa theory supports the NURTURE aspect of the nature-nurture debate, the Old Man accepts that there is such thing as nature - the MAKE, which is born in a person - but it is informed, determined and made active by external causes i.e NURTURE. So his position is not so different from yours.

So, we have:

You - There is NATURE and there is NURTURE. Both are INDEPENDENT of each other, but can INTERACT to determine the a person's thoughts and behaviour (although this is NOT always true, since NATURE alone determines it at times).

The Old Man - There is NATURE and there is NUTURE. Both a DEPENDENT on each other for meaningful effect an expression. Their INTERACTION ALWAYS determines the thoughts and behaviour of a man. NATURE is passive and is only activated as a REACTION to NURTURE. Therefore, a man's thoughts and behaviour are determined by EXTERNAL INFLUENCES.

TABULA RASA - There is only NURTURE, and it determines what you think, how you behave and what you become. There is NO innatism. You are created and informed by your experiences and perceptions only, which are externally generated. So, WHILE ACCORDING TO THE OLD MAN, TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT NATURES WILL PRODUCE DIFFERENT OUTCOMES WHEN SUBJECTED TO EXACTLY THE SAME OUTSIDE INFLUENCES, ACCORDING TO TABULA RASA, TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE WILL HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME OUTCOMES WHEN SUBJECTED TO EXACTLY THE SAME NURTURE, SINCE NATURE IS A PHANTASM. IN YOUR CASE, HOWEVER, NATURE ALONE CAN GENERATE OUTCOMES WITHOUT A NEED FOR EXTERNAL INPUT.

Which is right?

In fact, for my purpose, I'll combine your position with the Old Man's and dispense with the tabula rasa idea. That will leave us with the position that BOTH nature and nuture exist and they CAN interact to determine the behaviour and thoughts of a person (let us leave out the debate on whether they're INDEPENDENT or not for now, since that's your objection against the Old Man).

Now, let's return to the Old Man's argument. According to him, we can take NO CREDIT at all, for our thoughts, behaviours and achievements because they DEPEND totally on our MAKE (nature) and OUTSIDE INFLUENCES (nurture) [their INTERACTION, that is]. Since we're NOT RESPONSIBLE for our NATURE neither can we determine how we're NURTURED, then nothing we do, including our thoughts is of our own merit. In other words, WE HAVE NO FREE WILL. WE'RE NOT SELF-DETERMINED, BUT RATHER DETERMINED BY THE ONE WHO CREATED OUR NATURE, AND THE EXTERNAL CAUSES THAT INFLUENCE IT.

What do you think of this?

Joshthefirst:
Old man is wrong. Thought, does not come from extrinsic machinery of mind. Thought is independent and intrinsic, spontaneous expression of consciousness.

Thought can be INFLUENCED. But choice is independent, from spontaneous ones, to reflective ones. I have arrived at this conclusion, based on personal intrinsic reflections as well as reflections on the thoughts of others.

@theilluminatus: what is the mind? The mind is the inner voice that reads this words to you. It is the consciousness, the aliveness and intelligence that makes sense of a bunch of symbols of sensory input that you interpret as LOGICAL LANGUAGE.

The definition of MIND might not be as simple as you put it. If mind is consciousness, what about UNCONSCIOUSNESS? Is it part of mind or not? You must have heard of the Sleep-walking phenomenon.

Hi Billyonaire. Thanks for your input.

You asserted that Souls are non-physical, but then turn around to make the claim that they find their origin in stars. But doesn't that make them PHYSICAL? Are stars not physical entities in the physical universe?

If Souls are made of light, then they're physical since that would mean they got their raw material from stars (which you claim to be their origin) just like electromagnetic waves. So, in what way are they not physical? Why can't we detect the soul if it is made of LIGHT?

Talking about the soul projection of itself to the body from its star system and the interconnection between them, are you saying the soul is NOT IN the body here on earth, but simply connects with it through some mechanism of sorts?

And when you say the soul projects to other dimensions OUTSIDE space and time, what do you mean exactly? Can there be DIMENSIONS without physical space?! How do you define a dimension? And what does the soul go outside of spacetime to do in other dimensions? If the soul originates in PHYSICAL stars WITHIN space and time, how can it go OUTSIDE space and time?

If the soul is ABSENT during sleep, how do you explain DREAMS? Suppose I close my eyes right now and lie down on the sofa without sleeping off and I start imagining all sort of things, like I do in my lucid dreams while asleep, is my soul still present or has it travelled to other dimensions? Or is it the "SmartBody" you talked about that makes us dream during sleep when the soul [the MIND] has travelled?

You said "your understanding of 'spirit' is nano-microscopic physicality. Tiniest level of particulate nature that no physical instrument can see or caliberate" Yet you're of the notion that the Soul is made of LIGHT, which CAN BE DETECTED by physical instruments and can even be seen with the naked_ eye! When a patient dies in a hospital bed, why doesn't the doctor and every other witness see light escaping from the body? Plus, if the soul IS INSIDE the body, where exactly does it occupy? The head? Chest? Or the entire body itself? What shape does it take on when it leaves the body? Does it retain the shape of the body?

You further asserted that the soul needs a physical body for protection against Electromagnetic radiation which can alter its nature. Are you saying EM waves CAN'T PENETRATE the human body? What happens to the soul when the body is viewed under X-ray? Surely the body can't shield it from that? What happenes when the body is penetrated by gamma ray? Does it hit the soul and cause it harm, altering its nature? And when the soul travels out of the body, doesn't it encounter EM waves in space? Why would it use bodies on earth where the radiation is minimal, only to go naked_ in space where it is much more intense? And finally, why isn't the soul harmed and altered by its resident star system since it is these same stars that release EM radiation into space?

If we're being presented with choices by our higher selves like you claim, and WE PERSONALLY determine which ones to choose, without any form of external compulsion, then WE HAVE FREE WILL. As long as we're self-determined in the choices we make, we're free.

Coming back to your idea of the soul. Do you accept the Big Bang Theory, as the standard cosmological explanation for the universe's origin? If so, how do you explain the fact that the soul DID NOT EXIST prior to the Big Bang, since there were no stars yet, which are the origin of souls? Stars can't exist without the physical universe, and since the physical universe had a beginning in time, the soul can't be eternal. So, what is the FATE of the soul? WHAT HAPPENS ONCE IT HAS BECOME GOD?

TheIlluminatus:
Hi Billyonaire. Thanks for your input.

You asserted that Souls are non-physical, but then turn around to make the claim that they find their origin in stars. But doesn't that make them PHYSICAL? Are stars not physical entities in the physical universe?

If Souls are made of light, then they're physical since that would mean they got their raw material from stars (which you claim to be their origin) just like electromagnetic waves. So, in what way are they not physical? Why can't we detect the soul if it is made of LIGHT?

Talking about the soul projection of itself to the body from its star system and the interconnection between them, are you saying the soul is NOT IN the body here on earth, but simply connects with it through some mechanism of sorts?

And when you say the soul projects to other dimensions OUTSIDE space and time, what do you mean exactly? Can there be DIMENSIONS without physical space?! How do you define a dimension? And what does the soul go outside of spacetime to do in other dimensions? If the soul originates in PHYSICAL stars WITHIN space and time, how can it go OUTSIDE space and time?

If the soul is ABSENT during sleep, how do you explain DREAMS? Suppose I close my eyes right now and lie down on the sofa without sleeping off and I start imagining all sort of things, like I do in my lucid dreams while asleep, is my soul still present or has it travelled to other dimensions? Or is it the "SmartBody" you talked about that makes us dream during sleep when the soul [the MIND] has travelled?

You said "your understanding of 'spirit' is nano-microscopic physicality. Tiniest level of particulate nature that no physical instrument can see or caliberate" Yet you're of the notion that the Soul is made of LIGHT, which CAN BE DETECTED by physical instruments and can even be seen with the naked_ eye! When a patient dies in a hospital bed, why doesn't the doctor and every other witness see light escaping from the body? Plus, if the soul IS INSIDE the body, where exactly does it occupy? The head? Chest? Or the entire body itself? What shape does it take on when it leaves the body? Does it retain the shape of the body?

I wish I have a way to put it. But what is Spiritual means physicality at its finest, that can not be seen with physical eyes and so minute that physical instruments can not detect it. So, Soul is physical in that sense. Ignore the ambiguity. I havent had much time today to write on this. Of course on that level, everything is light. So, Yes, soul is photonic in nature. Every Soul traveler will understand this.

You do not have to detect soul as light, You experience it as light, cos you are the light when once experiences soul travel. You are aware that you are a bright light projecting in and out of physical matter at great speed.

The building block of each material comes from the elements on that planet. Soul's origin is from the Stars. Dream is shift of conscious from one density/dimension to another, and also through time and space. The body stays on because spirit keeps in running. Our body is a machine powered on at birth and runs until consciousness is disconnected.

Where your mind goes, your consciousness goes, but soul is within you, during thought processes. It is in sleep, soul travel and death that soul moves. You can shift consciousness to anywhere you choose to, without soul moving anywhere.

You can not dictate 'light' going because the light that soul is made up falls outside the UV spectrum that 7 colors of rainbow emanates, it is from the other spectrum of dark energy, which physical eyes can not accommodate.

Soul connects to a quantum circuit within the Smart Body that powers the physical corporal body. Within Soul is spirit, the Logos, the stamp of authenticity from Source.

Soul is capable of shape-shifting, I have seen soul as ball of light, and I have also seen soul as human shape.

@billyonaire, I modified the post. Come back and read the rest.

TheIlluminatus:

Coming back to your idea of the soul. Do you accept the Big Bang Theory, as the standard cosmological explanation for the universe's origin? If so, how do you explain the fact that the soul DID NOT EXIST prior to the Big Bang, since there were no stars yet, which are the origin of souls? Stars can't exist without the physical universe, and since the physical universe had a beginning in time, the soul can't be eternal. So, what is the FATE of the soul? WHAT HAPPENS ONCE IT HAS BECOME GOD?

I do not remember saying Soul was not there at the beginning. Everything in the Universe came from one Source, the singularity. I have no problems with nomenclatures, so why not, I could use the big bang. My understanding is that the beginning of the Universe (not the beginning of creation of human species), Singularity projected across void and with varying degree of speed and momentum produces varying degrees of dimensions/densities. And the universes where created out of matter of varying reactions of dark matter. This is the explanation of science. But we all know the fallibility of science when it has no grasps of consciousness. So, science got stucked when we realize there must be conscious observer. The Observer being Primordial Energy Being.

That Supreme being sees through our eyes, which is what made me deduce the fact that as human beings, we are robots controlled by a Superior Force. If and that being and us are of the same core. If you have further insights on this, I will welcome it. There is no point going back and forth. I welcome your opinions.

Billy I need your input on this. I'm almost done reading the book "our ultimate reality". The author isn't in any way a proponent of Christianity.
He's of the opinion that, God isn't resident in some far away heavens like the christians believe.
He claims we all are aspects or sparks of God. If we are aspects of God,it means in our core ,the subconscious (God) dominates. So in a sense,man is dual in nature.
The author also mentioned that our ultimate destiny is to unite with God,or see God.
Here comes the paradox, he claims that the Christian claim of God residing in some heaven is wrong,but he also claimed we need to journey the celestial levels in order to get to God. Both claim God resides in a heavenly level. Subjectively, they are both right.
Billy you claim we are created to journey the cosmos. Will this journey ever come to an end?
If it has an end, where is the end,or rather, what is the end?

Billyonaire:


I wish I have a way to put it. But what is Spiritual means physicality at its finest, that can not be seen with physical eyes and so minute that physical instruments can not detect it. So, Soul is physical in that sense. Ignore the ambiguity. I havent had much time today to write on this. Of course on that level, everything is light. So, Yes, soul is photonic in nature. Every Soul traveler will understand this.

You do not have to detect soul as light, You experience it as light, cos you are the light when once experiences soul travel. You are aware that you are a bright light projecting in and out of physical matter at great speed.

The building block of each material comes from the elements on that planet. Soul's origin is from the Stars. Dream is shift of conscious from one density/dimension to another, and also through time and space. The body stays on because spirit keeps in running. Our body is a machine powered on at birth and runs until consciousness is disconnected.

Where your mind goes, your consciousness goes, but soul is within you, during thought processes. It is in sleep, soul travel and death that soul moves. You can shift consciousness to anywhere you choose to, without soul moving anywhere.

You can not dictate 'light' going because the light that soul is made up falls outside the UV spectrum that 7 colors of rainbow emanates, it is from the other spectrum of dark energy, which physical eyes can not accommodate.

Soul connects to a quantum circuit within the Smart Body that powers the physical corporal body. Within Soul is spirit, the Logos, the stamp of authenticity from Source.

Soul is capable of shape-shifting, I have seen soul as ball of light, and I have also seen soul as human shape.