بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

All praise be to Allah the Lord of the worlds, may His Solah and salaam be upon the messenger, his household, companions and all those who follow his path till the day of qiyaamah.

After that,
this is a treatise I have compiled from the Quran and Sunnah and the statements of our pious predecessors to explain the stand of the pious predecessors and scholars of Islam on the ruling of the one who does Bidah.

Firstly, what is bidah?
Sheikh AbdulMuhsin Al-Abbaad simply defines it thus:

Literally: invention.

In the Shariah: (Something) innovated in the deen (of Islam)
(Min atyabil Minah Pg 42.)
Imam Shaatibi in Al-i'tisaam defined it thus:
A path innovated in the religion (of Islam) resembling the shariah, intended by the one following to actualize the worship of Allah.

(Al-i'tisaam Pg 34. Published by Daarul Ghaddil Jadeed 1435AH)

Next is warning against going against the messenger by going into sins and/or Bidah and the danger therein.

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 115:
وَمَن يُشَاقِقِ الرَّسُولَ مِن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَتَّبِعْ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ نُوَلِّهِ مَا تَوَلَّىٰ وَنُصْلِهِ جَهَنَّمَ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا
And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination.
(English - Mohsin Khan)
via iQuran

There are many verses like this in the Quran but we will mention that only here.

The next issue is: is Bidah divided?

Answer is Yes and No.

It depends on your basis of dividing it. If you are asking if Bidah is divided into good and bad then it is not divided, the messenger alyhissolaat wassalam said every innovation is misguidance .
So there is no guidance in Bidah, every Bidah is evil so far it is an innovation in the religion not in our world life.
As Sheikh Solih al-Uthymeen commented on the hadith (Every Bidah is misguidance) [Abu Dawood :4608, Nasaai: 2676, IbnMajah:32, authenticated by Albany in Soheehul Jami :2549): Meaning: every innovation in the religion of Allah is misguidance

(Sharh Arb'oon: hadith 28)

So any thing innovated in our world life if permissible so far there is no evidence prohibiting it.

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 29:
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.
(English - Mohsin Khan)
via iQuran

So everything is for us except we find evidence of prohibition.
If you understand this point well you will see the ignorance of the one who says that eating with spoon is Bidah! SubhanaLLaah! There's no Bidah in worldly matters, there is only halal and Haram.

There's no such thing as Bidah clothe, Bidah food, Bidah house except if the person claims that wearing such cloth or eating such food of living in a particular type of house is an act of worship, then we ask him for evidence if he provides it good, if not he is an innovator.



Imam Albany said in 'Dha'eefah' (3/347): And from the absurd is that some of them averts himself from eating with spoon thinking that it is against the Sunnah! Upon the fact that it is from the mundane matters not worship (matters) (it's just like) riding a car or aeroplane and similar things from the modern means.
(Copied from al-ikhtiyaaraat al-fiqhiyyah: Pg 475 compiled by Ibrahim Abu Shaadi. Published by Daarul Ghaddil Jadeed 1431AH).

But if what you mean by the division of Bidah is the effect of the Bidah on the one who does it. i.e does it make it's perpetrator a disbeliever or not?

Know! May Allah have mercy on you and save you from misguidance that there' is no difference between pious predecessors and the scholars of our time that Bidah is divided into Mukaffirah and ghayr-mukaffirah meaning the one which takes one out of Islam and the one which doesn't. Some other scholars use the terms Mukaffirah and Mufassiqah i.e the one which takes one out of Islam and the one which makes one a sinner.

Any other opinion other than this is a big lie, an innovation and a misguidance!!!
Anyone who claims that every Bidah takes one out of Islam, such a person is a liar, innovator and misguided misguider!!!

I will buttress my claim with quotes from Great Imams, Scholars and mountains of Knowledge in Shaa Allah, so don't be deceived by the claim of an ignorant fellow in one town who is completely ignorant and arrogant and self conceited!

Imam Abu Amr Uthman bn Solahuddeen As-Shahrozooriyy (577-643H) said: And they differed in the acceptance of the innovator that doesn't become a disbeliever in his innovation... (Muqaddimah IBM Solah:type 23)
Meaning that they (the pious predecessors) we're all agreed on the fact that Bidah is divided into mukaffirah and ghayr-mukaffirah but they differed on the acceptance of the narration of the later.

Imam Ibn Katheer said also (701-774AH) :

"I say: the innovator if he becomes a disbeliever with his innovation, then there's no problem in rejecting his report. But if he doesn't disbelieve..." (ikhtisaar uloomul hadith): type 23)
Ahmad Shaakir commented thus (revised version edited completely on Sat 20/dhul hijjah 1370 AH)
The people of innovation and desires if their Bidah is from the ones that rules one a disbeliever, their report is not accepted as quoted by Nawawiyy... But but the one whose Bidah doesn't imply disbelief ,some of them don't accept their report... (baa'thul atheeth :pg 86. Published by Maktabah al-hadyul Muhammadiyy 1434H)

Imam Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar said (773-852AH) :
Bidah: either Mukaffirah or Mufassiqah
(Nukhbatul Fikar)

Sheikh Muhammad Solih al-Uthymeen commented (1347-1421AH)

Meaning: either the Bidah is a mukaffirah weather it is a belief or statement or deed, or Mufassiqah that doesn't reach the level of kufr (disbelief)

Sheikh AbdulMuhsin al-Abbaad (still alive but very old, teacher of hadith in the Prophet's mosque in Medina) said:
Bidah is of two types :
1-Mukaffirah
2-Mufassiqah
(min atyabil Minah Pg 42
He also said:
And it is divided into two:
That is it's either a mukaffirah...or it is a Mufassiqah and it is what believing in it doesn't imply apostasy.
('ijtinaa'ul Tamr'page 33.published by Daarul Imam Malik 1428AH).

Sheikh Solih aal-Sheikh a minister, scholar and teacher in Saudi Arabia also said:
...indeed negates the perfection of Tawheed, but they will not be declared disbelievers and apostates from Islam, even if they are declared innovators and deviants because of it.
(Tamheed Sharh Kitaab Tawheed: pay 551.published by Daarul Salafiyyah)

This is just a little bit of the whole, May Allah accept it as an act of worship. Aameen.

For Further reading:

https://mobile.facebook.com/islamfatawa/posts/484841241603324?_rdc=1&_rdr


Even Sheikh Robi bn Haadi al-Madkhali divides Bidah into mukaffirah and ghayr-mukaffirah!

http://www.rabee.net/ar/questions.php?cat=26&id=484

Note: this ilorin takfeeri claims that Sheikh Robi is his teacher!

WooW.. Maa Shaa Allah!
Salaf Plumber should read this!

WooW.. Maa Shaa Allah!
Salaf Plumber should read this!

AbuuBilaal:
WooW.. Maa Shaa Allah!

Salaf Plumber should read this!

Where is the proof to divide bidah? . . no proof. . yet you still divide it. . no problem. . U bring scholars words. . no proof that all bida aint kufru. . no proof that eating with sp0on aint bida. . wo, am tired of repeating myself . . if u like follow alfa fatwa without delil. . if u like go voiceofthesalaf.com and download rodu alaro 1 -9 . . . everything has been explained there in details. . ma salam.j

Really dont like engaging you guys cus y'all boring. However, there is a need to reason with AhluSunnah guy on one condition. He is saying that you are guilty of the very same thing you accused sufis of i:e "sheikh said". Thats exactly what op just did.

I certainly do not agree with either of you. You the salafis are fond of saying you need evidence from "kitab and sunnah". You accept ijtihad when and when it pleases you. So if you want to stick to Quran and sunnah only, then you need to prove to AhluSunnah guy from Quran and sunnah where Allah or His messanger(saw) divided bid'a?.


You believe bid'a is not divided btw good and bad but at the same time you believe bid'a is divided btw worldly and religious matters. In that case, you need to provide evidence for this. This is what AhluSunnah guy is saying. He makes sense enough but i simply dont agree with him. You deserve a guy like that bcus you salafis have made takfir of bida and kufr of sufis on several occasions. So Allah in His finite wisdom brought fought someone [AhluSunnah] who would inflict pains on you for disrespecting awliya Allah. So you should do justice by providing evidence from kitab and sunnah ONLY to refute AhluSunnah guy.

"You" in my context refers to Op and his foot soldiers.

When Sufis also claim that bid'a is divided btw good(hassanat) and bad, you rejected it. This is why this brother is also rejecting you. What goes around comes around.Sufis even provided evidence leading to Sahaba and tab'in and tab'in tab'in but you turned them down.


Let me give and examples: it is known that rosullahi(SAW) used to drink with his right hand. He used to sit before drinking. Since these are considered religious matters (bcus many of you have said to follow sunnah by eating with right hand and sitting before drinking), therefore, this is not worldly matter. In that case, should a muslim does otherwise is considered bidi'a from your perspective. Just like trouser above the ankle. This is why i have said time and again that there is no difference btw you and Jabata.

The only "evidence" you have for dividing bidi'a is sheikh Uthaymin said, Sheikh Albany said, Shekih Bin Baz said etc. Your evidences do not even traced back to aslaf you claimed to follow. So this is the reason the guy keeps saying you follow sheikh and he is very correct. In that case, you have absolutely no right to accuse sufi murid when they also quote their shuyukh. Hope you understand my point?

ALLAH AKBAR. . Empiree . .you understood everything perfectly.. and yet you still a sufi.. alhamdulillah for my life YA ALLAH.. RASUL COMMANDED US TO USE 3 FINGERS TO EAT WHILE HE DIDNT COMMAND US ABOUT HOW TO DRINK. HIS COMMAND MADE EATING AN IBADAH, 3 FINGERS MAKE IT AN A MATTER OF AQEEDAH, REPLACING THE 3 FINGERS WITH SPOON MADE IT BIDA... sunnah is also to be following an action of rasul .. following the action of drinking is sunnah, if u follow it, u have a reward, if you dont, u do not sin. . .its makhrooh(drinking) . . . Concerning trousers. . .its a matter that has already has basis in islam, so it can only become a bida when a man decides to change the trousers into skirt. . thats bida because that person has done tashreey by changing ALLAH'S rule to his own desire. .until that happens, trousers will become bida when its changed into skirt and that makes it bida(kufru)

AhluSunnah:
ALLAH AKBAR. . Em.piree . .you understood everything perfectly.. and yet you still a sufi.. alhamdulillah for my life YA ALLAH.. RASUL COMMANDED US TO USE 3 FINGERS TO EAT WHILE HE DIDNT COMMAND US ABOUT HOW TO DRINK. HIS COMMAND MADE EATING AN IBADAH, 3 FINGERS MAKE IT AN A MATTER OF AQEEDAH, REPLACING THE 3 FINGERS WITH SPOON MADE IT BIDA... sunnah is also to be following an action of rasul .. following the action of drinking is sunnah, if u follow it, u have a reward, if you dont, u do not sin. . .its makhrooh(drinking) . . .

Dont get too excited. Op is my target not you. Your case is different. If i start with you now you will seize to follow jabata really quick. Your case is, you do not differentiate Sunnah. There are types of sunnat. If i start with you now, you will realize that you dont follow sunnah either.

Every sunnah has adhab and wisdom before implementation. You follow zero adhab and lack proper methodology of applying sunnah.

Empiree:
Dont get too excited. Op is my target not you. Your case is different. If i start with you now you will seize to follow jabata really quick. Your case is, you do not differentiate Sunnah. There are types of sunnat. If i start with you now, you will realize that you dont follow sunnah either.

Every sunnah has adhab and wisdom before implementation. You follow zero adhab and lack proper methodology of applying sunnah.

Abeg start with me . . make i explain am for you. . when u go buy me phone na..#note4#

AhluSunnah:
Abeg start with me . . make i explain am for you. . when u go buy me phone na..#note4#

You are still gasping on defnition of tarbiya and you want me to start with you?. Your jabata said it is kufr and i just gave u definition of it but obviously you realized it not what your sheikh said it is. So i rather push you aside for now until you get it right

Empiree:
You are still gasping on defnition of tarbiya and you want me to start with you?. Your jabata said it is kufr and i just gave u definition of it but obviously you realized it not what your sheikh said it is. So i rather push you aside for now until you get it right

Go listen to aqeeda sufi 1-3 and roddu tira baba adam 1-3 by jabata and also sufism by abu bakr shaki . visit voiceofthesalaf.com and download them. . then come back to defend urself.. s.jabata. .

AhluSunnah:
Go listen to aqeeda sufi 1-3 and roddu tira baba adam 1-3 by jabata and also sufism by abu bakr shaki . visit voiceofthesalaf.com and download them. . then come back to defend urself.. s.jabata. .

This is like telling muslims to learn what Islam is from Jews

Empiree:
This is like telling muslims to learn what Islam is from Jews

LAUGHING . .So jabata na jew? u mean he is a kafir abi?

AhluSunnah:
LAUGHING . .So jabata na jew? u mean he is a kafir abi?

smh...see why you dont understand sufism? You didnt grasp my allegorical and figurative expression and you want to accuse sufis?. See why i am not taking u seriously?.

Empiree:
smh...see why you dont understand sufism? You didnt grasp my allegorical and figurative expression and you want to accuse sufis?. See why i am not taking u seriously?.

A MUSLIM TAKES PROOF OF HIS RELIGION FROM QURAN AND HADITH. . RELIGION IS COMPLETE EVEN BEFORE RASUL DIED(MAIDAH VERSE 3). Anything or any act of worship rasul did not do, muslims must not do it because if they do, they are going against quran verse and we all know it results into kufru.. THERE IS NO SUFI SECT DURING AND HUNDREDS OF YEAR AFTER RASUL AND SAHABAHS DEATH....This means sufi is not part of islam and they are kafir because they reject quran verse 3...O.SUFI is a sect that affiliate herself with islam,sufi do not follow islam rulings nor quran or hadith,they only follow their shehu.their aqeedah,salat,fasting,manhaj,hajj,adkar,ALLAH's qualities,oness,names and everything else is opposite of what islam preaches..... ,eir

SUFI IS DIFFERENT RELIGION JUST LIKE CHRISTIANS. . they formed their deen, afiliate it with nabiy eesa and christianity is directly opposite of what naby eesa preaches. .

AhluSunnah:
A MUSLIM TAKES PROOF OF HIS RELIGION FROM QURAN AND HADITH. . RELIGION IS COMPLETE EVEN BEFORE RASUL DIED(MAIDAH VERSE 3). Anything or any act of worship rasul did not do, muslims must not do it because if they do, they are going against quran verse and we all know it results into kufru.. THERE IS NO SUFI SECT DURING AND HUNDREDS OF YEAR AFTER RASUL AND SAHABAHS DEATH....This means sufi is not part of islam and they are kafir because they reject quran verse 3...O.SUFI is a sect that affiliate herself with islam,sufi do not follow islam rulings nor quran or hadith,they only follow their shehu.their aqeedah,salat,fasting,manhaj,hajj,adkar,ALLAH's qualities,oness,names and everything else is opposite of what islam preaches..... ,eir

Talk is cheap. You are yet to answer what is sufism?. Since you dont know it, then, dont you think you are wasting your time?. Sufism is not a sect.

AhluSunnah:
SUFI IS DIFFERENT RELIGION JUST LIKE CHRISTIANS. . they formed their deen, afiliate it with nabiy eesa and christianity is directly opposite of what naby eesa preaches. .

You will be right on the condition that you provide Divinely revealed book that Sufis follow other than Quran

Empiree:
You will be right on the condition that you provide Divinely revealed book that Sufis follow other than Quran

Suratul rahman said ALLAH is at seventh heaven on HIS throne and sufi believed that ALLAH is everywhere,ALLAH said that all soccerers are kafir and sufi dey do jalabi and they take it as act of worship,ALLAH said whenever we argue we should revert it back to HIM and rasul but sufi revert back to their sheiks only,ALLAH said rasul never speaks out of his desire(affirming hadiths authenticity) sufi do n0t believe in hadith,ALLAH said only HIM knows the ghuyb(hidden things) but sufi believed their shayks knows it also,ALLAH said religion is complete but sufi innovated into everything islam makes as law... melo la fe ka. .qq

Why do you keep derailing this thread?. You should rather open separate thread if you so much concern about sufism. You failed to tell us the meaning of sufism which means you dont know. Indeed, one is enemy of what he's ignorance of.

Since you cant seem to define its meaning, let me help you with brief and precise definition. Sufism is the Spiritual Heart Of Islam.

@empiree

Its really a hard pill to swallow when one realizes that, all this while, he has been indoctrinated with some doctored & doped up poo in the name of aqeedah. Its funny how the method they invented now turned to be a pain in their ass when used against them

#As for Mr. Sunnah a.k.a all bid‘a are kufr, Iam waiting for him to make takfir on -:

1-S. Abubakar for compiling the QURAN.

2-S. Umar for seperating maqam Ibrahim from the kaaba & building a structure around it.

3-S. Usman for introducing adhan on jummah @ begining of noon.

4- S. Ali for organising a second eid prayer.

And a host of other sahabas who innovated.

Then we‘ll know who he really is.

^^^

If "AhluSunnah" can sincerely answer these questions from 1 to 4, his aqeeda methodology is crumbled

He already believes taraweeh is bid'a invented by Sayidina Umar Faruq(RA)

AhluSunnah:
LAUGHING . .So jabata na jew? u mean he is a kafir abi?

Any interpretation of the Quran or Sunnah that contradicts the understanding of the companions is out rightly an innovation!!!

Imam ibn Taymiyyah said in kitabul eeman that anyone who says that all Bidah is kufr has gone against the consensus of the Sohabah, the four imams and other Imams.


If you want to follow Jabata in his invented understanding of the Quran and Sunnah then you are on your own.

Allah says:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 115:
وَمَن يُشَاقِقِ الرَّسُولَ مِن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَتَّبِعْ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ نُوَلِّهِ مَا تَوَلَّىٰ وَنُصْلِهِ جَهَنَّمَ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا

And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran


So, Jabata is the only Ahlu Sunnah in the world?! Allah Akbar, shaytan is playing with your intellect.

Empiree

There's difference between the innovation of Jabata and the way of the Ahl Sunnah.

When there's a consensus among the past predecessors [companions and/or generation(s) after them] then it is binding upon the generation after them because of the verse mentioned earlier.

The Sufi follow their shuyukh even when it is explained to them that it contradicts the understanding of the companions.

It's not just a matter of quoting verses from the Quran or citing hadith. It's a matter of Understanding the verse and/or hadith as understood by the companions. If not you are an innovator and deviant.

As Imam Barbahaaree said in his Sharh sunnah:

"know that error is of two types... as for the other, he rejected the truth and contradicted those before him among the pious ones, so he is destroyed, a misguided shaitan in this ummah. and it is a right upon whoever knows him to warn the people about him so that they don't fall into his innovation"

All the kashf, hulool etc were not known during the time of the sahabah rather during the time of the first Sufis they were added innovations in layer generations, this shows they are Bidah.

AhluSunnah

You seem to be deluded by the fact that you were able to quote verses from the Quran to support your stance.

Know! May Allah guide you to the way of the salaf that there's no sect that doesn't quote verses from the Quran, even the jahmiyyah, mutazilah, Sufi, shia etc. So, the criterion is the understanding of the companions and those who followed them.

Look at you now, you can't quote just one scholar -past or present- that has the same opinion with Jabata.

I say to you as Ibn Masood said to the first generation of innovators:

"it's either you are more guided than the companions of the Prophet Muhammad alyhissolaat wassalam or you are on plain misguidance"

Newnas:
Empiree

There's difference between the innovation of Jabata and the way of the Ahl Sunnah.

When there's a consensus among the past predecessors [companions and/or generation(s) after them] then it is binding upon the generation after them because of the verse mentioned earlier.

I am not surprised you would bring ths up. Well, this is btw u and the guy. I simply dont agree with him. But considering what you just said about consensus, neither sohaba nor tabi'n or later generation after them condemned stuff like tesuba but this condemnation only emerged from your shuyukh. So you deviate from ijma which makes you innovator.

The Sufi follow their shuyukh even when it is explained to them that it contradicts the understanding of the companions.

You already fell into the trap in your op, so you need not reverse anything, alhusunnah guy got you on this. Leave Sufi alone

It's not just a matter of quoting verses from the Quran or citing hadith. It's a matter of Understanding the verse and/or hadith as understood by the companions. If not you are an innovator and deviant.

oh yea?. surprised this came from you. How many things sufis have quoted with understanding of aslaf but you twisted them to fit understanding of certain region or madhhab

All the kashf, hulool etc were not known during the time of the sahabah rather during the time of the first Sufis they were added innovations in layer generations, this shows they are Bidah.

What a word. And you claimed to have knowledge?. Kashf is more like "firasa" and Ibn Qayumi Jawzi recorded to have said companion of nabi who had the best firasa was Abu Bakr(ra) and you said this doesnt exist in their time?. The link below speaks of Sheikh Islam Ibn Taymiyya's position on Kashf but you believe otherwise. Dont let ikupakuti get you on this. No wonder what is left of islam today is "protestant islam" i:e one eyed muslims


Kashf and Ilham of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah


Many of the current day Salafiyyah viciously oppose karamat (miracles) of the awliya’ mentioned in books and narrated by people, etc. The following article is taken from a biography on Shaykh al-Islam Taqi al-Din Ibn Taymiyyah (Allah have mercy on him) by his contemporary, Imam Hafidh Abu Hafs ‘Umar bin ‘Ali al-Bazzar which he entitled al-A’lam al-‘Aliyyah fi Manaqib Ibn Taymiyyah. It has been translated into English as The Lofty Virtues of Ibn Taymiyyah Abu Sabaaya. The article expounds on some of the miracles of Shaykh al-Islam. The stories related concern the true quality given by Allah to his chosen ones and that is of kashf and ilham. Shaykh al-Islam possessed these qualities as is evident in the stories mentioned. This is not only a slap on the face of the current day Salafiyyah who deem kashf and ilham of the awliya’ as shirk but also re-affirms the position of Ibn Taymiyyah as a Shaykh al-Islam of the Ahl ‘l-Sunnah.

https://ahlalbidah./2013/10/25/some-incidents-kashf-and-ilham-of-shaykh-al-islam-ibn-taymiyyah/


You are really funny. You said Kashf is bidah?. You are fantastic. See why you arent different from alhusunnah guy and jabata?. Feel sorry for you man. All these great muslim men and women of the past had kashf and firasa. And Kashf, firasa etc are not even limited to muslims. Keferi may also be gifted.


Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:

We do not deny that people may experience some kind of kashf, whether when awake or in their dreams when the soul is less connected to the body, either by means of spiritual practices or otherwise. This is the psychological kashf which is the first type of kashf.


So here Kashf has always been in existent in the time of nabi and even before him. You are denying it makes you innovator. Innovator is not just someone who adds to religion but also someone who removes or attempts to remove things from religion. So here, you are innovator.




****Modified****

It seems to me that you guys always have problems with terms or language used by sufis to describe same thing Allah mentioned in the Quran. Kashf, firasa are what Quran terms "basira" i:e visual acumen, perception. So how is this innovation that came generations later?.

You are incredible newnas