Firstly, bring an example of deviation from ijma

Secondly, Ibn Taymiyyah explained clearly in his book al-furqan that Sufism, and all their boogie man practice is baseless and misguidance. In fact, the book was written for the Sufis, so don't distort and interpolate his words.

Thirdly, farasa is very different from kash in every way.

Farasa is simply an exceptional foresight born out of knowledge and experience such as looking at a woman and saying from Palm that she's pregnant. Such as waraqahs saying that Rasul alyhissolaat wassalam will be denied and chased out of makkah because of his knowledge of previous nations.

Kash on the other hand is claiming that Allah has unveiled the known and unknown for you, and you now know everything thing, past, present and/or future. This is an evil claim. Then they start uttering all sorts of crap and rubbish like a wayward dog.

Don't mix this with that, they not similar not to talk of being the same.

Please read Al-furqan, you need it, preferably with Sheikh Solih aal-Sheikh explanation.

And please read talbees iblees by ibn jawziyy.
A large part of it was based on Sufism, rather it was primarily for them.

Sheikh Halaby said a third of the whole book is based on Sufis and sufism.

^^^

Lol wuru wuru reply. Why did you miss my post on Ibn Taymiyya's position on Kashf?. I even highlighted it but you skipped. Who are you playing your antics with?

Newnas:

Kash on the other hand is claiming that Allah has unveiled the known and unknown for you, and you now know everything thing, past, present and/or future. This is an evil claim. Then they start uttering all sorts of crap and rubbish like a wayward dog.

Don't mix this with that, they not similar not to talk of being the same.
.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:

We do not deny that people may experience some kind of kashf, whether when awake or in their dreams when the soul is less connected to the body, either by means of spiritual practices or otherwise. This is the psychological kashf which is the first type of kashf.

Sheikh even believe there are types of Kashf but you are here talking nonsense. If you skeptical of this saying of Ibn Taymiya(ra), check your favorite islamqa website. They posted this not sufis

As for your 'trap' claim:

He fell into my trap! I wanted him to deny the scholarly consensus of those before him to show him that he's 'OYO' and an innovator.

As some scholars defined innovation:

It is what is created without a similar 'ancestor'.

That's why Allah called himself: badii of the heavens and the earth. i.e he created them without a model or sample which He copied or followed.

So, Jabata and his claim are Bidah because he has no one among the pious predecessors that he 'resembles' in his claim.

And lastly, Allah bears witness that if I do not claim to be knowledgeable. If I have done so forgetfuly or ignorantly, I repent from it and seek Allah's forgiveness.

^^^

And your shuyukh are 100% free from this innovation?. Many things they twisted to go against ijma as well. You and Jabata have striking resemblances

AbuuBilaal:
WooW.. Maa Shaa Allah!
Salaf Plumber should read this!

is not d only one fa ; they are just too many on dis forum.

jazakhallahu khaeran Newnas. BTW where is dat Shia guy dat recommend ruqya for me today? pls come and do Wat you know best oooo

Newnas:
AhluSunnah

You seem to be deluded by the fact that you were able to quote verses from the Quran to support your stance.

Know! May Allah guide you to the way of the salaf that there's no sect that doesn't quote verses from the Quran, even the jahmiyyah, mutazilah, Sufi, shia etc. So, the criterion is the understanding of the companions and those who followed them.

Look at you now, you can't quote just one scholar -past or present- that has the same opinion with Jabata.

I say to you as Ibn Masood said to the first generation of innovators:

"it's either you are more guided than the companions of the Prophet Muhammad alyhissolaat wassalam or you are on plain misguidance"

Quote quran or hadith to support ur claim.I DO NOT ALFA.ITS EITHER U QUOTE ALLAH(QURAN) OR U QUOTE RASUL(HADITH). . OR SHUT UP. Y DO U CALL IBN MASHOOD AHLU BIDA? U INSULT SAHABAH OF RASUL? U LIED UPON HIM? BRING YOUR PROOF O. .. and abeg o. . which sect do i belong to

Empiree:
^^^

If "AhluSunnah" can sincerely answer these questions from 1 to 4, his aqeeda methodology is crumbled

He already believes taraweeh is bid'a invented by Sayidina Umar Faruq(RA)

WHERE AND WHEN DID I SAY THAT? ONIRO NI E. . TSHEW..

You a shameless lair. Ibn taymiyah never said all bida is not kufru.. Seriously you have serious problem.. Rasul said all (kulu) bida is dolala.. And all dolala leads to hell.... That dolala will be interpreted by the meaning of bida... And bida is tashrey.. It's kufru.. Bida simply means rejecting Quran and hadith... It's kufru... Even all those Alfa that divided bida knows it's kufru.. See, I won't quote any scholar word or book....


Is rejecting Quran and hadith a kufru or sin or it's kufru and sin? Because that's simply what bida is... Answer me ni o.. You must answer me....



And that where in Quran or hadith that a sinner is said to stay in hell forever... Because that hadith said (WA kulu dolala fi nar ) means all dolala is into to hell ..


If you say that the dolala is (sin) that means you say all sinner will go to hell which is against Quran and hadith..


If you say that that dolala is (sin and kufru) that means you say that both sinners and kafir will all go to hell.. Which is against Quran and hadith...


If you say that that dolala is (kufru) that means you are saying all kafir will go to hell.. Which has proof in Quran and hadith .......... And it simply means all (kulu) innovation (bida) is kufru (dolala) and(wa) all (kulu) kufru(dolala) leads to (fi) hell.. (nar).....







And where is it in Islam that it's a must that you use oro awon alfa... Emi o ni ba e lo oro alfa rara.... Just Quran and hadith

AhluSunnah:
WHERE AND WHEN DID I SAY THAT? ONIRO NI E. . TSHEW..

Arent you the same deathstrokes. You also adopted another moniker before this one. Thats when you said that

Newnas:


Any interpretation of the Quran or Sunnah that contradicts the understanding of the companions is out rightly an innovation!!!

Imam ibn Taymiyyah said in kitabul eeman that anyone who says that all Bidah is kufr has gone against the consensus of the Sohabah, the four imams and other Imams.


If you want to follow Jabata in his invented understanding of the Quran and Sunnah then you are on your own.

Allah says:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 115:
وَمَن يُشَاقِقِ الرَّسُولَ مِن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَتَّبِعْ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ نُوَلِّهِ مَا تَوَلَّىٰ وَنُصْلِهِ جَهَنَّمَ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا

And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran


So, Jabata is the only Ahlu Sunnah in the world?! Allah Akbar, shaytan is playing with your intellect.

Everything you said is right and it's proof against everything you say... .You said that Quran and hadith that is against the interpretation of sahabah is an innovation.. What you said is right..... WE ALWAYS TAKE PROOF OF OUR ISLAM FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH... and ijmah sahabah... Whatever sahabahs agreed upon that has proof in Islam... (hadith or Quran)...


Quote the page ibn taymiyyah said not all bida is kufru or better still, bring the proof ibn taymiyyah use...... You are always quoting lies about oro awon Alfa... You have serious problem. .


For your information, I don't follow jabata or any Imam or any scholar.... I only follow Allah.. And rasul.... Anything anyone says and can't back it up with proof from Quran and hadith... I will never accept it

Empiree:
Arent you the same deathstrokes. You also adopted another moniker before this one. Thats when you said that

I am deathstroke... Changed the name because it truly sucks... I only said taraweeh (asamu) is bida.. It's not to be performed after ishai but it's to be performed by 3rd quarter of the night... Because that's exactly when rasul did performed it for his sahabahs.. 3 times in jammah and he stopped coming to perform it for them in jammah

AhluSunnah:



Everything you said is right and it's proof against everything you say... .You said that Quran and hadith that is against the interpretation of sahabah is an innovation.. What you said is right..... WE ALWAYS TAKE PROOF OF OUR ISLAM FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH... and ijmah sahabah... Whatever sahabahs agreed upon that has proof in Islam... (hadith or Quran)...

@bolded, please clarify what you mean by "that has proof in Islam"
are you saying that sahabah can agree on something and that thing will not have proof in Islam?
please explain.

Quote the page ibn taymiyyah said not all bida is kufru or better still, bring the proof ibn taymiyyah use...... You are always quoting lies about oro awon Alfa... You have serious problem. .

I'll quote the place and even snap the page for you from kitaabul eeman!

will you accept it?

For your information, I don't follow jabata or any Imam or any scholar.... I only follow Allah.. And rasul.... Anything anyone says and can't back it up with proof from Quran and hadith... I will never accept it

for your information also, Jabata is not a scholar! So any understanding or explanation he brings from the Quran and Sunnah, he must mention at least one person that proceeded him in it.

Newnas:


@bolded, please clarify what you mean by "that has proof in Islam"
are you saying that sahabah can agree on something and that thing will not have proof in Islam?
please explain.




I'll quote the place and even snap the page for you from kitaabul eeman!

will you accept it?





for your information also, Jabata is not a scholar! So any understanding or explanation he brings from the Quran and Sunnah, he must mention at least one person that proceeded him in it.

yeah.. that has proof in Islam.. and sahabhs can never agree upon what is wrong....


Why won't i accept it.. As long as Alfa brings proof to support his claim...



I don't care what you think about jabata.. Ko kan mi.. Maybe Alfa or any scholar preceed him in his fatwa.. Ko kan mi.. As long as there's proof IN Quran and hadith.. Am OK with it... Because everything in Islam is just so clear.. Very clear...

AhluSunnah:




I am deathstroke... Changed the name because it truly sucks... I only said taraweeh (asamu) is bida.. It's not to be performed after ishai but it's to be performed by 3rd quarter of the night... Because that's exactly when rasul did performed it for his sahabahs.. 3 times in jammah and he stopped coming to perform it for them in jammah

lobatan ooo!!!

invented opinions!

Allah says: و من الليل...

And part of the night... I in Surah israa.

Layl in Arabic starts from sunset. One of the opinions recorded from Imam Ahmad Imam Ahlu Sunnah is that one can even observe it between Magrib and ishaa but should delay witr till after ishaa.

Jabata invented this opinion. He keeps going against the consensus of the companions and those who followed them.

So Umar bn Khattaab did Bidah when he gathered the sahabah?!

The messenger atolyhissolaat wassalam said:

Follow the two after me among my companions: Abu Bakr and Umar (soheehul Jami 1144)

Hold on to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs after me (irwaa 2455)

and many hadith pointing to this fact

AhluSunnah:



yeah.. that has proof in Islam.. and sahabhs can never agree upon what is wrong....

You are not clear yet. If the sahabah agreeon something, will you follow it even if you don't know the proof in the Quran and Sunnah?

Why won't i accept it.. As long as Alfa brings proof to support his claim...



I don't care what you think about jabata.. Ko kan mi.. Maybe Alfa or any scholar preceed him in his fatwa.. Ko kan mi.. As long as there's proof IN Quran and hadith.. Am OK with it... Because everything in Islam is just so clear.. Very clear...

So you will still follow Jabata even when it becomes clear to you that he has deviated from the path of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum?

Newnas:


You are not clear yet. If the sahabah agreeon something, will you follow it even if you don't know the proof in the Quran and Sunnah?




So you will still follow Jabata even when it becomes clear to you that he has deviated from the path of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum?

I CANT AND WONT FOLLOW SAHABAHS IF THEY AGREE UP0N S0METHING THAT HAS NO PROVE. . BRING PROOF FROM KITAB WA SUNNAH THAT JABATA HAS DEVIATED. . ma fun mi ni oro alfa rara. . quran or hadith or u shut up

Newnas:


lobatan ooo!!!

invented opinions!

Allah says: و من الليل...

And part of the night... I in Surah israa.

Layl in Arabic starts from sunset. One of the opinions recorded from Imam Ahmad Imam Ahlu Sunnah is that one can even observe it between Magrib and ishaa but should delay witr till after ishaa.

Jabata invented this opinion. He keeps going against the consensus of the companions and those who followed them.

So Umar bn Khattaab did Bidah when he gathered the sahabah?!

The messenger atolyhissolaat wassalam said:

Follow the two after me among my companions: Abu Bakr and Umar (soheehul Jami 1144)

Hold on to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs after me (irwaa 2455)

and many hadith pointing to this fact

QUOTE THE HADITH OF UMAR, AEESHA ON TARAWEEH(ramadan) ani ko ma mu oro alfa wa fun mi mo se..quran or hadith or shut up..am waiting o..quote and post the hadith. .oponu.o fe tako jabata,and its kitab wa sunnah

Newnas. . oniruju ni e. . oni iro de ni e. . and av n0ticed that quran and hadith is n0thing to you afi oro alfa.. o de tun wa ma n pa iro mo awon alfa yen ni. . u do n0t want to learn.. u just wana c0nfuse people.. and please do n0t ever qu0te me again. . .u keep sh0uting bida is divided, u bring no proof afi oro alfa that has no basis.. u keep sh0uting n0t all bida is kufru. .bring proof ..na oro alfa without basis u bring. . u even said ibn abass did bida. ..do n0t ever qu0te me again. .

you aint finished yet?


"oniruju ni e". i like that phrase


give them hell...i dey gbadun you

winner will face the sufis in final round

AhluSunnah:
QUOTE THE HADITH OF UMAR, AEESHA ON TARAWEEH(ramadan) ani ko ma mu oro alfa wa fun mi mo se..quran or hadith or shut up..am waiting o..quote and post the hadith. .oponu.o fe tako jabata,and its kitab wa sunnah

So you don't care about the words of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum?

The only eeman that Allah will accept from you is the eeman of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum.

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 137:
فَإِنْ آمَنُوا بِمِثْلِ مَا آمَنتُم بِهِ فَقَدِ اهْتَدَوا وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّمَا هُمْ فِي شِقَاقٍ فَسَيَكْفِيكَهُمُ اللَّهُ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

So if they believe in the like of that which you believe, then they are rightly guided, but if they turn away, then they are only in opposition. So Allah will suffice you against them. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran



If you believe in the like of the companions you are rightly guided. If not, you are misguided.

AhluSunnah:
QUOTE THE HADITH OF UMAR, AEESHA ON TARAWEEH(ramadan) ani ko ma mu oro alfa wa fun mi mo se..quran or hadith or shut up..am waiting o..quote and post the hadith. .oponu.o fe tako jabata,and its kitab wa sunnah

Are you nuts?!

I quoted two hadith for you up there and you are saying this crap. Do you ever read or you just type what has been programmed in your head?!

AhluSunnah:
n. .

Take this your oga's "Ida Imo" to crush him really quick bcus oniruju ni newnas

AhluSunnah:
Newnas. . oniruju ni e. . oni iro de ni e. . and av n0ticed that quran and hadith is n0thing to you afi oro alfa.. o de tun wa ma n pa iro mo awon alfa yen ni. . u do n0t want to learn.. u just wana c0nfuse people.. and please do n0t ever qu0te me again. . .u keep sh0uting bida is divided, u bring no proof afi oro alfa that has no basis.. u keep sh0uting n0t all bida is kufru. .bring proof ..na oro alfa without basis u bring. . u even said ibn abass did bida. ..do n0t ever qu0te me again. .

To you, the word of the scholars has no meaning because you are an innovator and that's the only way you can establish your khariji and mutazili innovation.

On the other hand, Allah gave great importance to the word of scholars in the Quran:

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 95:

O you who believe! Kill not game while you are in a state of Ihram for Hajj or 'Umrah (pilgrimage), and whosoever of you kills it intentionally, the penalty is an offering, brought to the Ka'bah, of an eatable animal (i.e. sheep, goat, cow, etc.) equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or, for expiation, he should feed Masakin (poor persons), or its equivalent in Saum (fasting), that he may taste the heaviness (punishment) of his deed. Allah has forgiven what is past, but whosoever commits it again, Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Able of Retribution.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran

Secondly,

You are an innovator, no doubt, a double face liar, pretender and cheat!

First you claimed that ibn Taymiyyah and Uthymeen and Madkhali support your misguidance.

I brought clear proofs to destroy your claim.
When you saw that you have no other line of defense you kept shouting Quran and Sunnah like your khaariji ancestors shouted on Ibn Abass.

It's all the same thing, just different colour. Innovators have the same way.

You are an innovator!

See the words of Ibn Taymiyyah. It's completely against your innovated understanding.

You are the real oniruju... and trying to lie against sheikhul Islam. May Allah reward you with what you deserve for your lies and deceit!

@ Empiree
You believe bid'a is not divided btw good and bad but at the same time you believe bid'a is divided btw worldly and religious matters. In that case, you need to provide evidence for this

Well, anyone who reads the hadith of Aishah RodiyaLLaahu anha will see that there's no such thing as Bidah in worldly matters.

Whoever innovates into this affair of ours what is not from it, will have it rejected. (Bukharee and Muslim)

Ponder on the bolded, what's "our affair" it's Islam.

Newnas:


To you, the word of the scholars has no meaning because you are an innovator and that's the only way you can establish your khariji and mutazili innovation.

Relax Newnas, this is a very simple matter. I think maybe you didnt get Ahlusunna clearly.

He meant if you must quote a scholar on any religious ruling, then you‘ll have to reference their ruling to kitab & sunnah, since we belief they (the scholars) cant or mustnt go against the kitab & sunnah, so their stance must have an origin, unless you believe they have an independent say in religious matters.

This stance of his conforms accurately with Q4:59, where GOD said obedience is to him, his messanger & the ‘scholars‘ but should the scholars deviate on a matter, we should refer back to him & rasul (kitab & sunnah). This very vs shows that any scholar must bring a reference from kitab & sunnah on a ruling to get our acceptance as commanded by GOD.

All these @ the end, will boil down to redefining what bid‘a really means in that hadith of nana Aisha (as): this very phrase:- WHAT IS NOT FROM IT. I hope you get it ?

ikupakuti:


Relax Newnas, this is a very simple matter. I think maybe you didnt get Ahlusunna clearly.

He meant if you must quote a scholar on any religious ruling, then you‘ll have to reference their ruling to kitab & sunnah, since we belief they (the scholars) cant or mustnt go against the kitab & sunnah, so their stance must have an origin, unless you believe they have an independent say in religious matters.

This stance of his conforms accurately with Q4:59, where GOD said obedience is to him, his messanger & the ‘scholars‘ but should the scholars deviate on a matter, we should refer back to him & rasul (kitab & sunnah). This very vs shows that any scholar must bring a reference from kitab & sunnah on a ruling to get our acceptance as commanded by GOD.

All these @ the end, will boil down to redefining what bid‘a really means in that hadith of nana Aisha (as): this very phrase:- WHAT IS NOT FROM IT. I hope you get it ?

@bolded, you understand him well. Now understand me too well.

There is no difference of opinion among the sahabah and all those after them that not all Bidah is kufr (disbelief).

I quoted so many scholars who hold mentioned this clearly, and Ibn Taymiyyah even said in kitabul eeman that whoever says otherwise has gone against the consensus of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum and the four imams and other than the four imams.

And I even gave me a screenshot of a similar statement by Ibn Taymiyyah in Muqaddimah usool tafseer.

The onus lies on him to break this claim of consensus by mentioning and referencing just one scholar who proceeded Jabata in this opinion.

If he can't, then he shouldn't say a word again and should repent else he is a bloody innovator and misguided misguider, a deviant that the people must be warned against.

Newnas:


@bolded, you understand him well. Now understand me too well.

There is no difference of opinion among the sahabah and all those after them that not all Bidah is kufr (disbelief).

I quoted so many scholars who hold mentioned this clearly, and Ibn Taymiyyah even said in kitabul eeman that whoever says otherwise has gone against the consensus of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum and the four imams and other than the four imams.

And I even gave me a screenshot of a similar statement by Ibn Taymiyyah in Muqaddimah usool tafseer.

The onus lies on him to break this claim of consensus by mentioning and referencing just one scholar who proceeded Jabata in this opinion.

Now I get you. But before we refer back to him, this unanimous opinion you claimed all the salafs hold, there is no way they could have done that without reference from the kitab & sunnah, that I‘m very sure of coz it would amount to innovation. Now, can you just quote a single reference where they claimed to have pulled their unanimous opinion from to shut all these ?

Coz in order to satisfy the condition laid down by GOD in that vs, every ruling must have its origin from kitab & sunnah, even if all creation are going to unanimously agree to it, if it doesnt originate from GOD it wont be accepted sofar that very vs is still relevant.

The reference you seek from jabata is inconsequential in all these. This is really not about him but about what has being dividing the ummah. I.e what bid‘a is & what it is not, I hope you get me ?

One of the proofs that not all bid'ah takes one of out Islam......

There is a hadeeth narrated by ibn Abbas radiyallaahu anhu:

While the Prophet (ﷺ) was delivering a sermon, he saw a man standing, so he asked about that man. They (the people) said, "It is Abu Israil who has vowed that he will stand and never sit down, and he will never come in the shade, nor speak to anybody, and will fast.'' The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Order him to speak and let him come in the shade, and make him sit down, but let him complete his fast."{sahih bukhari no. 6704}

1.) This man was standing under the sun with the belief that he is worshipping Allaah.

2.) What he did was clearly bid'ah

3.) The prophet didnt call him a kaafir

4.) The prophet just rejected his bid'ah and told him to continue his fasting.

5.) The prophet himself has made it clear that not all bid'ah takes you out of Islam

6.) If you say he can't call him a kaafir straight away perhaps due to ignorance, at least the good did he was doing would've been nullified had it been his bidah was kufr as Allaah says in Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 5:

وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالْإِيمَانِ فَقَدْ حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ

and whoever disbelieves in eeman, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

He azza wa jal also says in Surah At-Taubah, Verse 54:
وَمَا مَنَعَهُمْ أَن تُقْبَلَ مِنْهُمْ نَفَقَاتُهُمْ إِلَّا أَنَّهُمْ كَفَرُوا بِاللَّهِ وَبِرَسُولِهِ وَلَا يَأْتُونَ الصَّلَاةَ إِلَّا وَهُمْ كُسَالَىٰ وَلَا يُنفِقُونَ إِلَّا وَهُمْ كَارِهُونَ

And nothing hinders their spendings being accepted from them, except that they disbelieve in Allaah and in His Apostle and they do not come to prayer but while they are sluggish, and they do not spend but while they are unwilling.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

7.) Its a consensus that kufr nullifies one's deed....

8.) The prophet did not nullify his good deed(fasting)....

^^^

Good!

#Did the holy prophet (saw) claimed what that sahaba did is bid‘a or is it just your own understanding ? Any back-up from kitab & sunnah to substantiate the accuracy of this your understanding as the definition of bid‘a ?

#Can you bring a reference where the holy prophet (saw) called that type of act bid‘a ?

#Is this the type of proof the scholars quoted by @Newnas banked on ? Any reference to that from them ?

#Mind you, thats also a sahaba (salaf), had he done that after the demise of the holy prophet (saw), other sahabas & taab‘in might have emulated him & so on down the line, I hope you get where I driving @ ?

#So, this correction from the Nabi (saw) was it out of compassion to the sahaba or to sever a bid‘a act ? Any Proof ?