I ask this because often when discussing with religious people, they seem to feel that their opinions on issues discussed in their holy books are above reproach. And sometimes take offense when these ideas are criticized.
What's Nairaland's take on this?

But what is the motive and usefulness of critisizing a belief that affects no one but the individual in question? If I believe Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus, of what impact does that have on anyone but me? Especially if I am a contributing, functioning member of society, why the need to assault what I believe just because you disagree with it?

Also I don't understand why the word "dogma" has befallen such a fate that it is viewed almost always negatively. Dogma is simply a set of beliefs - usually ones that prescribe attitudes towards moral living. Where's the beef?

thehomer:

I ask this because often when discussing with religious people, they seem to feel that their opinions on issues discussed in their holy books are above reproach. And sometimes take offense when these ideas are criticized.
What's Nairaland's take on this?

depends on who you're talking to.

The pendulum swings all ways- its not only religious people who do this.

thehomer:

I ask this because often when discussing with religious people, they seem to feel that their opinions on issues discussed in their holy books are above reproach. And sometimes take offense when these ideas are criticized.
What's Nairaland's take on this?

Thehomer, religious folks invest their entire being into their religious beliefs.Their entire worldly identity is in their beliefs, so if you only just oppose their religious worldview in the slightest, then you have insulted and hurt their very being in the process.
It is just the same thing with big football club suppoters.Remember the chelsea supporter who ran his car into innocent folks who he thought were against his beloved club?These folks invest so much of who they are and what they are into the club they support that some are even ready to take another man's life in a coldblooded manner.Does that sound familiar?

JeSoul:

But what is the motive and usefulness of critisizing a belief that affects no one but the individual in question? If I believe Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus, of what impact does that have on anyone but me? Especially if I am a contributing, functioning member of society, why the need to assault what I believe just because you disagree with it?

While I agree that the example you have given affects no one but yourself? There are lots of instances where it does affect others. e.g death of children due to their parents refusal of appropriate medical treatment. Or the spread of sexually transmitted infections due to refusal of condoms.

JeSoul:

Also I don't understand why the word "dogma" has befallen such a fate that it is viewed almost always negatively. Dogma is simply a set of beliefs - usually ones that prescribe attitudes towards moral living. Where's the beef? 

Your definition is incomplete. Here are two definitions from wiktionary.

"An authoritative principle, belief or statement of opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true regardless of evidence, or without evidence to support it."

"A doctrine (or set of doctrines) relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth authoritatively by a religious organization or leader."

The excessive dependence on one person's authority I think is the main problem.

tpia.:


depends on who you're talking to.

The pendulum swings all ways- its not only religious people who do this.

My point is that it is perfectly acceptable to criticize economic principles, philosophical principles, political opinions etc. But when religious ideas are being criticized in a similar manner, the other party gets riled up in some ways at times with disastrous consequences. They seem to feel that religion should be some sort of class apart from these other issues that affect humanity.

^^ try criticizing Darwin, Marx, etc.

Go to the politics section and start a thread criticizing a political figure.

then compare your results.

To the thread title question, the irony of this demand is that henotheistic religions like islam and christianity will never abide by such a demand.Christian religion, for example, relies heavily on criticizing and demonizing other religions or schools of thought to elevate itself to the lofty position of the, "one and only true religion", and it cannot achieve that position without showing the flaws of other religions or schools of thought.
It is only when it becomes the target of criticisms that katakata explodes.If all religious dogmas have to be free of criticisms, then everybody has to respect that, and i mean, EVERYBODY.

Secondly, if the humanity begins to see that relligious dogmas have become a societal problem to the point that they are contributing heavily to the decay of the society at large(like the case in nigeria), then they have defnitely opened themselves up to criticisms from all angles.

JeSoul:

But what is the motive and usefulness of critisizing a belief that affects no one but the individual in question? If I believe Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus, of what impact does that have on anyone but me? Especially if I am a contributing, functioning member of society, why the need to assault what I believe just because you disagree with it?

Hi Jesoul how are you doing?,
it would have been nice if all religious people held your view i.e[b] live and let live[/b], but a lot of your fellow believers are not ready to do that. they want to force their beliefs and morals on others.
, and we atheists are generally looked at as devils and an enemy even without us criticising religion!!!  
just recently i decided to tell a christian friend of mine about my atheism and he started telling me that i am loosing my mind and i should better go back to being a muslim, he told me that he rather be around a muslim than an atheist because atheists are dangerous (according to him ),
.the same thing happened when i told a muslim cousin of mine about my atheism he started telling me rubbish like the devil has consumed my soul.!!!! ,if you believers cant respect and accept our position as atheists then why then do you expect us to respect your  dogma and beliefs? so it goes both ways!!!
i always tell my theist friends that i only believe in one commandment, which is keep thy religion to thy self. dont bug me with your beliefs and i wont bug you with my atheism but the moment you want to call me names and start threatening me with an imaginary ball of fire(hell) because i dont believe what you believe then i will shoot holes in your beliefs which you inturn refer to as blasphemy!!!

I disagree with you here.Economic principles, philosophical principles, political opinions, etc, all elicit the same negative reactions to criticisms as do religious dogmas because they are all mind forms used by humans as the identities for their worldly self.

thehomer:

My point is that it is perfectly acceptable to criticize economic principles, philosophical principles, political opinions etc. But when religious ideas are being criticized in a similar manner, the other party gets riled up in some ways at times with disastrous consequences. They seem to feel that religion should be some sort of class apart from these other issues that affect humanity.

jagunlabi:

Thehomer, religious folks invest their entire being into their religious beliefs.Their entire worldly identity is in their beliefs, so if you only just oppose their religious worldview in the slightest, then you have insulted and hurt their very being in the process.
It is just the same thing with big football club suppoters.Remember the chelsea supporter who ran his car into innocent folks who he thought were against his beloved club?These folks invest so much of who they are and what they are into the club they support that some are even ready to take another man's life in a coldblooded manner.Does that sound familiar?

I understand what you're saying. But it is a commonly accepted practice to criticize football teams.
At the very least one person may be right in that one team won or that the stats were visible to be seen.  
Also, when someone acts the way you described anywhere in the world, such a person will be punished by the law of the land. But in some regions, a person who carries out an act like that on the basis of religion will be praised.

thehomer:

While I agree that the example you have given affects no one but yourself? There are lots of instances where it does affect others. e.g death of children due to their parents refusal of appropriate medical treatment. Or the spread of sexually transmitted infections due to refusal of condoms.

  Point taken. And I draw the line when one's "faith" spills over from their personal lives and affects others. I have no problem with bringing the fury down on such - whatever the religion/faith/dogma may be. One cannot go round claiming religion while blowing up others or murdering abortion doctors.

 What I question are the incessant, relentless attacks on religion from bored antagonists borne soley out of spite and a false sense of superiority, for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing beliefs they personally consider outlandish, directed at a harmless set of people who are minding their own business and contributing to their societies. In which case, I say leave them with their holy books. Live and let live.

jagunlabi:

To the thread title question, the irony of this demand is that henotheistic religions like islam and christianity will never abide by such a demand.Christian religion, for example, relies heavily on criticizing and demonizing other religions to elevate itself to the lofty positio of the, "one and only true religion", and it cannot achieve that position without showing the flaws of other religions.
It is only when it becomes the target of criticisms that katakata explodes.If all religious dogmas have to be free of criticisms, then everybody has to respect that, and i mean, EVERYBODY.

i agree with you, christianity and islam expect not to be criticised but they turn around and start criticising other religions (hindus, budhists etc), if you dish it you have to be ready to take it when someone dishes it, you cant on one hand tell hindus or sango worshippers that their religion is fake and rubbish but the moment someone calls yours rubbish, then you take offence!!!

jagunlabi:

Secondly, if the humanity begins to see that relligious dogmas have become a societal problem to the point that they are contributing heavily to the decay of the society at large(like the case in nigeria), then they have defnitely opened themselves up to criticisms from all angles.

i agree with you again, when a pastor accuses innocent children of witchcraft (calabar) or a crackpot islamic fundamentalist looses his mind then expect christianity and islam to be criticised

g1:

Hi Jesoul how are you doing?,

 G1 my dude, I am well, how are you?  

it would have been nice if all religious people held your view i.e[b] live and let live[/b], but a lot of your fellow believers are not ready to do that. they want to force their beliefs and morals on others.
, and we atheists are generally looked at as devils and an enemy even without us criticising religion!!!  
just recently i decided to tell a christian friend of mine about my atheism and he started telling me that i am loosing my mind and i should better go back to being a muslim, he told me that he rather be around a muslim than an atheist because atheists are dangerous (according to him ),
.the same thing happened when i told a muslim cousin of mine about my atheism he started telling me rubbish like the devil has consumed my soul.!!!! ,if you believers cant respect and accept our position as atheists then why then do you expect us to respect your  dogma and beliefs? so it goes both ways!!!
i always tell my theist friends that i only believe in one commandment, which is keep thy religion to thy self. dont bug me with your beliefs and i wont bug you with my atheism but the moment you want to call me names and start threatening me with an imaginary ball of fire(hell) because i dont believe what you believe then i will shoot holes in your beliefs which you inturn refer to as blasphemy!!!

 I will most readily concede the point that many religionists have taken to unfortunate means in an attempt to "convert" people around them. We're all human, and someone who may be young and brash now, may someday be learned and skilled in the art of communcating a truth they hold dear, instead of trying to "force it down" on others.

 That being said, G1 I have seen just a few of your posts around and I must say it saddened me a bit. Because you have taken to brash and unfortunate means in communicating your own beliefs - see, we're all guilty? Even if you believe in a certain manner and to an extreme degree, there's an effective, and even amicable way of showing what and especially why you believe as such - trust me, it will go a long long longer way in reaching people, than simply shoving these "blasphemies" in their faces. But we all fall short, its what keeps the world interesting place ain't it?  

jagunlabi:

I disagree with you here.Economic principles, philosophical principles, political opinions, etc, all elicit the same negative reactions to criticisms as do religious dogmas because they are all mind forms used by humans as their identities for theif worldly self.

Yes people tend to react negatively to criticisms of such things but it is acceptable to the public to discuss these things and point out the flaws on each side but I feel that religious opinions too should fall under the realm of things that can be discussed openly not to be protected in some sort of glass box.

thehomer:

Yes people tend to react negatively to criticisms of such things but it is acceptable to the public to discuss these things and point out the flaws on each side but I feel that religious opinions too should fall under the realm of things that can be discussed openly not to be protected in some sort of glass box.

One can do that, but only without criticism. I think religious beliefs are just way too personal to leave open to public scrutiny.
I like and agree with the injunction that says, "keep thy religion to thyself".That way, nobody's feelings get hurt.
Don't tell me about your god unless i ask for it, and definitely never try to convert me, unless i voluntarily open myself up for conversion, and definitely never try to demonize my position and start throwing hells and demons and devils at me, because that will only elicit negative reactions from me.
We're learning . . .

JeSoul:

 G1 my dude, I am well, how are you?  

am doing good my sister

JeSoul:

 That being said, G1 I have seen just a few of your posts around and I must say it saddened me a bit. Because you have taken to brash and unfortunate means in communicating your own beliefs - see, we're all guilty? Even if you believe in a certain manner and to an extreme degree, there's an effective, and even amicable way of showing what and especially why you believe as such - trust me, it will go a long long longer way in reaching people, than simply shoving these "blasphemies" in their faces. But we all fall short, its what keeps the world interesting place ain't it?  

i agree with you that i have been a little bit harsh and aggressive i guess it was a reation of the treatment i got from believers!!!! i used to be a peaceful atheist minding my business until when believers thought they could call me names just because i do not believe in god, !!!
when a christian meets a muslim and the muslim informs him of his faith the christians does not tell him stuff like his soul has been taken by the devil and likewise when a muslim meets a christian he does not tell him that he is worshipping the devil then why the hell do christians and muslims here in nigeria who findout that i am an atheist feel the need to tell me crap because i dont believe in god.!!!!
it was after tolerating them for too long that i decided to abandon the gentleman attitude and go blood for blood. however there are christians and muslims here that i still have decent conversations with e.g viaro etc

peaceout

tpia.:

^^ try criticizing Darwin, Marx, etc.

Go to the politics section and start a thread criticizing a political figure.

then compare your results.

This has already been done. We have cartoons and caricatures of politicians, scientists etc. Their merits and demerits discussed openly but religious ideas, no way. If the discussion forum is large enough, they claim discrimination. I say religion should not get a special pass.

JeSoul:

Point taken. And I draw the line when one's "faith" spills over from their personal lives and affects others. I have no problem with bringing the fury down on such - whatever the religion/faith/dogma may be. One cannot go round claiming religion while blowing up others or murdering abortion doctors.

Ok.

JeSoul:

What I question are the incessant, relentless attacks on religion from bored antagonists borne soley out of spite and a false sense of superiority, for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing beliefs they personally consider outlandish, directed at a harmless set of people who are minding their own business and contributing to their societies. In which case, I say leave them with their holy books. Live and let live.

I posit that this will be best served by a secular society (which does not affect your practice of religion on yourself) that makes policy decisions based on good scientific evidence. I also agree with your live and let live philosophy but with a caveat as long as no one takes my money for any unjustifiable reason.

jagunlabi:

One can do that, but only without criticism.

It cannot be done without criticism I mean how can you demonstrate to the person that the view they hold is wrong and should not apply to whomever they meet?

jagunlabi:

I think religious beliefs are just way too personal to leave open to public scrutiny.
I like and agree with the injunction that says, "keep thy religion to thyself".That way, nobody's feelings get hurt.
Don't tell me about your god unless i ask for it, and definitely never try to convert me, unless i voluntarily open myself up for conversion, and definitely never try to demonize my position and start throwing hells and demons and devils at me, because that will only elicit negative reactions from me.
We're learning . . .

I agree with that injunction too which is why I feel religion should not be in the public sphere at any level.

thehomer:

It cannot be done without criticism I mean how can you demonstrate to the person that the view they hold is wrong and should not apply to whomever they meet?

Ofcourse it cannot.Was just being sarcastic.Yes, the faithfuls would like their beliefs to be discussed because nobody likes their views to be ignored, and that includes religionists most especially, but they would rather you see all the good points and turn a blind eye to the . . . not so good points of their beliefs.They demand their faiths to be treated as gently and kindly as possible, which, in my view, is wishful thinking mainly because of the outrageous claims they make, coupled with their propensity for seeing themselves as the only ones with the "truth", whatever that might be or mean.
This people have still failed to realize that they do not and cannot draw kind and gentle treatments towards their beliefs if they do not do the same to all the others.That is something they are not able to completely take onboard because evangelism is an intrinsic part of the christian faith, for example.And to evangelize is to demean, insult, spit and demonize other beliefs in order to elevate theirs.They also call it, "ministering" or "witnessing", which are just fancy words for doing on to others' beliefs what they would not like be done unto theirs, and that is, run other people's beliefs down to the ground.

But they will learn by force.Nairaland is such a learning ground.Here overzealous faithfuls get as much as they dish out in such a ferocious manner, that they are shocked and thrown aback simply because they never reckon with such counter reactions.Call it, NL shock & awe treatment.

They will learn by force, by tulasi.

thehomer:

This has already been done. We have cartoons and caricatures of politicians, scientists etc. Their merits and demerits discussed openly but religious ideas, no way. If the discussion forum is large enough, they claim discrimination. I say religion should not get a special pass.

the search function doesnt support your claim.

@ jagunlabi

calm down.

You're fighting the air, because i dont see anyone quarrelling with you right now.

Who dey fight?You don dey see spirits again?I am not fighting, but putting forward what will definitely come to pass and that is people being forced to respect each others worldviews.

tpia.:

@ jagunlabi

calm down.

You're fighting the air, because i dont see anyone quarrelling with you right now.

g1:

am doing good my sister

That is good to hear

i agree with you that i have been a little bit harsh and aggressive i guess it was a reation of the treatment i got from believers!!!! i used to be a peaceful atheist minding my business until when believers thought they could call me names just because i do not believe in god, !!!

Very understandable. And I personally think christians should be above reproach when it comes to how they interact with their neighbors, Jesus would be ashamed of a lot of us now.

when a christian meets a muslim and the muslim informs him of his faith the christians does not tell him stuff like his soul has been taken by the devil and likewise when a muslim meets a christian he does not tell him that he is worshipping the devil then why the hell do christians and muslims here in nigeria who findout that i am an atheist feel the need to tell me crap because i dont believe in god.!!!!
it was after tolerating them for too long that i decided to abandon the gentleman attitude and go blood for blood. however there are christians and muslims here that i still have decent conversations with e.g viaro etc

peaceout

Well, I can certainly imagine the extreme responses you would get when you declare yourself atheist. Its like the worst possible thing one can be in the eyes of those of faith. Personally, I think anyone who doesn't believe in God (not religions) or in the possiblity of a God is nuts - and I say that in the nicest possible way G1, really .

  Permit me to ask a question my brotha, are you an atheist because you hate religion/s in their current form? What is your rationale for your belief?

JeSoul:

  Permit me to ask a question my brotha, are you an atheist because you hate religion/s in their current form? What is your rationale for your belief?

hey jesoul good to hear from you again,
firstly i wont agree with your use of the word belief!!! if atheism is a belief then not collecting stamps is a hobby.
secondly, on your question about whether i hate religion, my answer is NO, i dont have a problem with religion as long as religion does not try to enforce its beliefs and morals on me, like i have mentioned before my family is composed of christiens and muslims whom i love dearly.
I just cant bring myself to believe in angels and demons, heavens and hells, virgin births, resurrections and other supernatural stuff,!!! but if other people have no problem believing in them then thats good for them and fine by me!!!
hope i answered your question sis?

g1:

hey jesoul good to hear from you again,

  you may sense I'm trying to elicit your story bit by bit lol . . . but thank you for indulging me so far.

firstly i wont agree with your use of the word belief!!! if atheism is a belief then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

  Oh but it is. I know there're different "brands" and "levels" of atheism, and not all atheists reason alike. But it shifts from being passive, it is no longer simply a "lack of belief", when it actively and resolutely declares that "God does not exist" . . . you cannot prove God does not exist no more than I can prove he does.
  But lets not get hung up on that. The debate of "is atheism a belief" has been raging for a long long time and will contiue to.

secondly, on your question about whether i hate religion, my answer is NO, i dont have a problem with religion as long as religion does not try to enforce its beliefs and morals on me, like i have mentioned before my family is composed of christiens and muslims whom i love dearly.

  I wasn't really asking if you hate religion - forgive me if that's how it came across. I'm asking about how and more importantly why you've come to believe God does not exist. Is it because of the failings of the religions you see around? or something else?

JeSoul:

   I wasn't really asking if you hate religion - forgive me if that's how it came across. I'm asking about how and more importantly why you've come to believe God does not exist. Is it because of the failings of the religions you see around? or something else?

well i hope i can summarize this and still get my point across,
i see no reason to believe in the supernatural, the universe i see around me behaves in exactly the same way i expect it to behave if there were no supernatural divine elements guiding it. Let me give a couple of examples:

prayer for example, if one prays and get his prayer answered then "god has answered his prayer" and if he does not get his wish then "god is testing him or the devil is preventing him to get his wish etc". there is no difference of results between people that pray and those who dont

look at the problem of suffering and evil also, right now as we speak there is a child dying of hunger somewhere or a girl being molested and a so called god is watching and letting it happen due to his so called divine free will and divine plan. i look at things like this and i see a sadistic being.
if your house was burning and your child was inside and a firefighter arrived but refused to save your daughter despite him having the power and opportunity to do so, and after you asked why he didnt help he tells you that its his will and there is a greater plan that you cannot understand!!! what will you think of such a person?

like you said in one of your posts on a different thread that people can look at the same thing and reach different conclusions, while you look at the world around you and see gods hand in everything, myself on the other hand see no reason to believe there is a god pulling the strings.

finally i cant tell anyone if there is a god or not but even if he does exist, he does not impress me and i do not want anything to do with him, and if that means eternal damnation after i die then i will rightly take my place amongst the other godless ones

religious dogma in the form of absolutism should definitely be criticized. If you believe your dogma is the truth and the only truth, why not be put to test?

g1:

well i hope i can summarize this and still get my point across,
i see no reason to believe in the supernatural, the universe i see around me behaves in exactly the same way i expect it to behave if there were no supernatural divine elements guiding it.

  Thanks, your point is definitely across now . Forget the supernatural for now. Do you have any theories as to how the universe, as incredibly complex and fragile as it is, and the earth perfect in circumstance from gravity, to the balance at just the right angle and composed of just the right among of just the right gases etc came about?
 

Let me give a couple of examples:
prayer for example, if one prays and get his prayer answered then "god has answered his prayer" and if he does not get his wish then "god is testing him or the devil is preventing him to get his wish etc". there is no difference of results between people that pray and those who dont

This I think is a very legitimate point. And I blame christians who rationalize every event to somehow blame the devil and "credit" God as if He needed their help.

 I look at it this way, why certain things happen or don't happen, I don't know and honestly don't care to know. I place my life in God's hands - good and bad can come from Him - I mean look no further than the scriptures to see this. But in all things, as the scriptures teach, He does everything to bring honor to His name and bring about good in my life - my life which will extend far beyond after I have passed away - this is real hope the bible teaches about. Not out momentary sojourn here on earth.

look at the problem of suffering and evil also, right now as we speak there is a child dying of hunger somewhere or a girl being molested and a so called god is watching and letting it happen due to his so called divine free will and divine plan. i look at things like this and i see a sadistic being.
if your house was burning and your child was inside and a firefighter arrived but refused to save your daughter despite him having the power and opportunity to do so, and after you asked why he didnt help he tells you that its his will and there is a greater plan that you cannot understand!!! what will you think of such a person?

 The age old problem of evil.

 See it this way, if God's intention was to create a perfect world, then there would be no such thing as freewill. The same freewill that affords you the opportunity to think and reason and even question His existence. God isn't thanked when good results from our freewill (love, charity, sacrifice etc) but He is blamed when evil results from it?

like you said in one of your posts on a different thread that people can look at the same thing and reach different conclusions, while you look at the world around you and see gods hand in everything, myself on the other hand see no reason to believe there is a god pulling the strings.

Yeah we all see things very differently indeed. And even in our differences, I believe there's still a common thread that runs through us all - and that is the inherent knowledge or "feeling" if you will, of a God. I think once people get older and more frustrated at the world, they channel that anger into dismissing the possibility of God, rationalizing He cannot exist if all this evil does.

Perhaps we have a flawed perception and expectation of how a "God" is supposed to be and act?

finally i cant tell anyone if there is a god or not but even if he does exist, he does not impress me and i do not want anything to do with him, and if that means eternal damnation after i die then i will rightly take my place amongst the other godless ones

I cannot tell you how much this saddens me to hear, and I only hope and pray you will have a change of heart.

bawomolo:

religious dogma in the form of absolutism should definitely be criticized. If you believe your dogma is the truth and the only truth, why not be put to test?

Can you give a few examples of this "absolutism" in current society?

JeSoul:

  Thanks, your point is definitely across now . Forget the supernatural for now. Do you have any theories as to how the universe, as incredibly complex and fragile as it is, and the earth perfect in circumstance from gravity, to the balance at just the right angle and composed of just the right among of just the right gases etc came about?

i know we humans are compelled to think that the universe was designed with us in mind but i do have a good knowledge of cosmology and astronomy and believe you me i dont think it was designed with us in mind, in the words of carl sagan "we live in a pale blue dot in space" it just so happens that a tiny point of this vast universe generated the right conditions to allow life as we know it today to evolve and blossom. outside of this pale blue dot we live in is total chaos in this vast universe that we will never be able to know its size. massive gigatic balls of gas (stars) are constantly exploding, fragments of massive rocks are constantly smashing into each other etc.!!!i guess its another case of two of us looking at the same thing and reaching different conclusions.!!!

JeSoul:
 

 I look at it this way, why certain things happen or don't happen, I don't know and honestly don't care to know. I place my life in God's hands - good and bad can come from Him - I mean look no further than the scriptures to see this. But in all things, as the scriptures teach, He does everything to bring honor to His name and bring about good in my life - my life which will extend far beyond after I have passed away - this is real hope the bible teaches about. Not out momentary sojourn here on earth.

if you can reach this conclusions from the divine scriptures fine! as for me i just cant, i find more peace knowing that my life aint in anyones hands and that no one is watching over me

JeSoul:


 The age old problem of evil.

 See it this way, if God's intention was to create a perfect world, then there would be no such thing as freewill. The same freewill that affords you the opportunity to think and reason and even question His existence. God isn't thanked when good results from our freewill (love, charity, sacrifice etc) but He is blamed when evil results from it?

well i dont deny the good things that religion does such as charity but i dont think it is exclusive to religion, i did a lot of charity when i was a muslim and i still do!!! i dont have to believe there is a god giving me heaven points in order for me to give charity rather i do it because i feel the pain of my fellow human being and thus make an effort to relieve him/her of that pain
as for the evil that results from god's free will i just cant see why that much suffering and pain is needed in order for him to prove a point!!

JeSoul:

Yeah we all see things very differently indeed. And even in our differences, I believe there's still a common thread that runs through us all - and that is the inherent knowledge or "feeling" if you will, of a God. I think once people get older and more frustrated at the world, they channel that anger into dismissing the possibility of God, rationalizing He cannot exist if all this evil does.

i am not angry at god/religion, like i said my worldview just happened to be the way it is!!!any atheist out there will tell you that they didnt chose not to believe, its a gradual process before you finally get to a state of non beleif. and as for me i find peace, happiness and humilty in my personal state of non belief!

JeSoul:
 
I cannot tell you how much this saddens me to hear, and I only hope and pray you will have a change of heart.

i know how you feel sis, when i used to be a believer i used to feel pity and sad for atheists too!! and i used to pray for them!! i used to ask myself how come they cant feel the beauty of belief in god
when a friend of mine found out i was an atheist she was almost in tears telling me that she will pray for me and that i should please give god a chance because she cant live with the thought of me in hell, in order not for me to cause her more emotional pain i had to later lie that i have gone back to believing in god.

Like i said for me i have reached a point of no return. i just cant see myself believing again. I am comfortable with my position as a non believer and I am ready for the consequences if there are any!!!

JeSoul:

Can you give a few examples of this "absolutism" in current society?

You are going to hell if you don't accept jesus christ as your lord and savior?

does Christianity accept other religions as paths to salvation? if not, that's a form of absolutism and should be challenged.

bawomolo:

religious dogma in the form of absolutism should definitely be criticized.  I[b]f you believe your dogma is the truth and the only truth, why not be put to test?[/b]

I thought g1's grouse with religion was that we try to force our beliefs on others? why are you in turn trying to force your own disagreement on us?
I sense some inconsistency in the atheist's approach to christianity.