The concept of time is something that confuses many about modern physics since modern physics recognises time as a dimension. We live in a 4 dimensional universe - that is 3 spatial dimensions + time or maybe not to confuse people let us use the traditional words. We live in a 3 dimensional universe + time.

So our universe is 3D run by time.

You can represent it in mathematics thus.

spatial dimension - (XYZ)
time -(T)

so relatively speaking
XYZ + T = C

C is the speed of light 'a constant'

Ok enough of that, maybe on another discussion we may talk about that further, now let me use what we experience everyday to explain how time relates to space and what it means to be transcendent.

We all watch movies, either by with our phones, laptops or DVD, any method you use always have one thing in common and that is a timer

You always see it counting for the duration of that movie, if the time stops the movie is over, if you pause the time nothing moves.

Pay attention to if time stops because it literally determines the fate of the movie, if the movie has no time then there is no movie.

A movie is 2D even though it may appear 3d to you but actually it's 2d - it is more like drawing a box on a sheet of paper, it appears 3d but in fact it's just 2.

I hope you understand the concept of movie time explained above.

Now you can say that when you are watching a movie you are watching a 2D + time plain or universe.

But you are not within that movie time and space therefore you are transcendent to the time and space of the movie = it means you are outside the space and time of the movie.

The implication is

You can be outside a particular space and time, but doesn't mean you are not confined within another space and time

So you as a person in our 3D+T universe watching a movie is outside the Space and time of the movie.

Nothing happens to the time of the movie that affects you, nothing happens within that 2D space that concerns you, if the time is paused you dont get paused - you literally don't exist within that 2D and Time. (even if you are watching a picture of you in that movie)

And the implication is; You cannot perform actions within that 2D space and time, you cannot be a person within that plain.

We are all familiar with the transcendent argument, God is outside space/time.

This can only mean that God is outside our own space/time not necessarily without any space/time - for God or any other type of transcendent being or beings to exist it must be confined within a space/time more than us, let us call it a hyper space/time (Should consist of even much more dimensions)

And this literally suggests that anything outside this space/time cannot perform actions within this space/time as a person just as we cannot perform actions within the space and time of a movie we are watching.

This i think is in direct contradiction with theistic ideas of what God is.

if God is transcendent then God cannot perform actions within our time, If God can perform actions within our time then God cannot be transcendent.

A transcendent God can only be reconciled with a deistic concept of God, not one that is aloof but rather one that cannot intervene even if ii desires to.

What do you guys think. Loj, hahn, hopefulandlord, doctoralien, dorox, CatfishBilly

I understand your points. The transcendent god argument works best for a Deistic god as you've rightly said, but it's still an argument for a god.

Now, a god that trascends our own time and space but is limited by time and space in another "realm", it kind of limits the "powers" of this god.
Which would now lead to a kind of ad hoc rescue attempt by declaring that the said god is not limited by any time and space in any realm whatsoever.

CatfishBilly:
I understand your points. The transcendent god argument works best for a Deistic good as you've rightly said, but it's still an argument for a god.

Yes i have not intended to attack the existence of God here just correcting the application of transcendency

[quote]
Now, a god that trascends our own time and space but is limited by time and space in another "realm", it kind of limits the "powers" of this god.
Which would now lead to a kind of ad hoc rescue attempt but declaring that the said god is not limited by any time and space in any realm whatsoever.[/quote

a being in hyprer space/time (my word to describe time and space beyond ours), if we could observe such being (though we can't since we are confined within our own inescapable time and space) it would appear all powerful to us since it's ability would stretch far above our understanding of how physics works.

a 2D being in a 2D plain would marvel if it is able to observe a 3D being because it would not really understand the concept of UP

here to learn

If I understand anything above ehh, let Lucifer push/force me to heaven.

Anyways, make I park & be learning cos this physics Wan pass my level

adepeter2027:
If I understand anything, let Lucifer push me to heaven.

Anyways, ma just Dae learn cos this physics Wan pass my level

what don't you understand let me explain it then

johnydon22:

what don't you understand let me explain it then

Everything about this space & time of a sh!t stuff.
I started reading "the universe in a nutshell". At page 10, I got frustrated.
I Was not understanding again.....

adepeter2027:

Everything about this space & time of a sh!t stuff.

I started reading "the universe in a nutshell". At page 10, I got frustrated.

I Was not understanding again.....

ok let me explain with illustrations.

do you have a pen and paper?

johnydon22:

ok let me explain with illustrations.
do you have a pen and paper?

Lol
It's night naw....
BTW, you could drop ya email so I can contact you

Hear to learn to...Agentofallah what do you think

Johnydon22, this is a thought provoking proposition. I especially like your projection unto a 2D realm that is familiar to us all. My best teachers were always the ones with the remarkable ability to create mental images using mere words! Maybe consider becoming a part time, pro bono lecturer of philosophy in a school nearby.

---

That said, I didn't quite understand your XYZ+T=c formalism, so hope you clarify it later on.

I understand the rest of your argument, but think there are simple caveats that may yet clog the wheels of your conclusion.

Now, consider this scenario in your 2D movie analogy:

I, the transcendent observer, am not too pleased with the fate of some of the characters in the movie at some specific time signature. Can I not potentially change the fate, 're-shoot', as it were, a different scene of the same characters and then splice and fuse said scene at the time signature of my choosing, thereby, prolonging/hastening/rearranging the fated timeline of said characters?

In this scenario, does my interference not contradict your deduction that we "cannot perform actions within that 2D space and time"? If it does, then can't a god that resides in an extradimensional realm potentially also splice, fuse and rearrange our fates at will.

Although, I easily concede that no matter how many new scenes I add to the movie, the 2D characters will never be able to perceive my interference because they will never be able to foresee their yet to be unwound fates which occupy a future timeline in the movie. Likewise, we may not be able to perceive the interference of this extradimensional god with our fates, but don't you think there is still a possibility that it exists and it interferes nonetheless?

Cc: Deicide

Here to learn oohh this physics pass my level .... Johnydon i remove my cap for you oohh...
If felixomor come here now he will start ranting

Hmmmmn! Wonderful piece

Cc: butterflyl1on, winner01

AgentOfAllah:
Johnydon22, this is a thought provoking proposition. I especially like your projection unto a 2D realm that is familiar to us all. My best teachers were always the ones with the remarkable ability to create mental images using mere words! Maybe consider becoming a part time, pro bono lecturer of philosophy in a school nearby.

Thank you for the compliment

---

That said, I didn't quite understand your XYZ+T=c formalism, so hope you clarify it later on.

it's just a mathematical projection of dimensions plus time in relativistic term which must equal to universal constant of (c) the speed of light.

I understand the rest of your argument, but think there are simple caveats that may yet clog the wheels of your conclusion.

lets see.

Now, consider this scenario in your 2D movie analogy:

I, the transcendent observer, am not too pleased with the fate of some of the characters in the movie at some specific time signature. Can I not potentially change the fate, 're-shoot', as it were, a different scene of the same characters and then splice and fuse said scene at the time signature of my choosing, thereby, prolonging/hastening/rearranging the fated timeline of said characters?

there are two ways i can answer this.

1. Someone making a movie can do this, once the movie is released to the public you may change things in the movie but the pre-released movies cannot change anymore. take the extended versions of movies for example, the extended versions are just alternate versions of the first release. If you have the normal cut and extended version of Lord of the rings.
when you are watching the normal cut, things on the extended version won't appear but both are different universes therefore cannot affect each other.

so whatever version of one movie you are watching is just like an alternate universe.

2. Open any movie right now on your phone, then try changing what is happening there by plucking one out, killing someone inside the movie.

In this scenario, does my interference not contradict your deduction that we "cannot perform actions within that 2D space and time"?

You quite did not understand the analogy: let me try and see if i can break it down further. You are watching Lord of the rings, you phone, laptop or tv any device you are watching it with is a 2d projector. So this movie you are watching is on a 2d universe, you are on your couch with pop corn and you are outside that 2d universe and is in your 3d universe.

No matter what you do, it does not affect the movie, you as a person cannot perform actions within that 2d universe. Like say "tell frodo and sam to hide" and they hear you, match into the tv and assist them in a fight or pluck sauron out directly from your couch.

there is no way for you to get up from your couch and enter into that 2d dimension, and if you are peter jackson who made Lord of rings, what ever you add or remove from the already released movie can only make an alternate movie

If it does, then can't a god that resides in an extradimensional realm potentially also splice, fuse and rearrange our fates at will.

Ultimately lead to an alternate universe like the extended version of Lord of the rings.

Although, I easily concede that no matter how many new scenes I add to the movie, the 2D characters will never be able to perceive my interference because they will never be able to foresee their yet to be unwound fates which occupy a future timeline in the movie. Likewise, we may not be able to perceive the interference of this extradimensional god with our fates, but don't you think there is still a possibility that it exists and it interferes nonetheless?

You can interfere in a movie by pausing the time, hastening it, running the time backward but only you notices these changes, characters within your TV do not, but that is by the way.

The implications i tried to highlight was: a transcendent entity (you) cannot perform actions within a time and space it transcends (inside your tv)

johnydon22:
The concept of time is something that confuses many about modern physics since modern physics recognises time as a dimension. We live in a 4 dimensional universe - that is 3 spatial dimensions + time or maybe not to confuse people let us use the traditional words. We live in a 3 dimensional universe + time.

So our universe is 3D run by time.

You can represent it in mathematics thus.

spatial dimension - (XYZ)
time -(T)

so relatively speaking
XYZ + T = C

C is the speed of light 'a constant'

Ok enough of that, maybe on another discussion we may talk about that further, now let me use what we experience everyday to explain how time relates to space and what it means to be transcendent.

We all watch movies, either by with our phones, laptops or DVD, any method you use always have one thing in common and that is a timer

You always see it counting for the duration of that movie, if the time stops the movie is over, if you pause the time nothing moves.

Pay attention to if time stops because it literally determines the fate of the movie, if the movie has no time then there is no movie.

A movie is 2D even though it may appear 3d to you but actually it's 2d - it is more like drawing a box on a sheet of paper, it appears 3d but in fact it's just 2.

I hope you understand the concept of movie time explained above.

Now you can say that when you are watching a movie you are watching a 2D + time plain or universe.

But you are not within that movie time and space therefore you are transcendent to the time and space of the movie = it means you are outside the space and time of the movie.

The implication is


So you as a person in our 3D+T universe watching a movie is outside the Space and time of the movie.

Nothing happens to the time of the movie that affects you, nothing happens within that 2D space that concerns you, if the time is paused you dont get paused - you literally don't exist within that 2D and Time. (even if you are watching a picture of you in that movie)

And the implication is; You cannot perform actions within that 2D space and time, you cannot be a person within that plain.

We are all familiar with the transcendent argument, God is outside space/time.

This can only mean that God is outside our own space/time not necessarily without any space/time - for God or any other type of transcendent being or beings to exist it must be confined within a space/time more than us, let us call it a hyper space/time (Should consist of even much more dimensions)

And this literally suggests that anything outside this space/time cannot perform actions within this space/time as a person just as we cannot perform actions within the space and time of a movie we are watching.

This i think is in direct contradiction with theistic ideas of what God is.

if God is transcendent then God cannot perform actions within our time, If God can perform actions within our time then God cannot be transcendent.

A transcendent God can only be reconciled with a deistic concept of God, not one that is aloof but rather one that cannot intervene even if ii desires to.

What do you guys think. Loj, hahn, hopefulandlord, doctoralien, dorox, CatfishBilly

Your argument is faulty because it begins with a presupposition that God subscribes to YOUR idea of space and time. That being said let me correct some impressions.

Your analogy using movies and the characters in the movie and them being subject to the timer on the movie isn't water tight.

Before you have any movie from a movie producer you first have THOUGHT! the movie producer receives an idea (thought) of the kind of movie he wishes to make and the duration of time he wants it to run for.

Notice that the movie producer is subject to his thoughts regarding

1. Type of movie
2 Type of characters
3. Duration of the movie

Based on that this is how I see your analogy.

Thought = God

Movie producer = Nature

Characters = Us

Time = brought in by the thought but not subject to it.

If you look at it critically, thought isn't subject to time. It does not follow any known parameters for time. 5 million people all over the world can be thinking about the same thing at the same time without being influenced by the same experience.

Someone who lived 100 years ago and thought about something back then, such a thought can also be conceived by someone who came 500 years later and both of them not being influenced by the same experiences, plus not knowing that someone else has already had this thought centuries before.

This is why I say the movie producer is nature: Nature has been here before us so nature works with a different time I. E is older than our time so in a sense nature can regulate our time but is regulated by something else.

Daily people die (get removed from the movie) or get born aka produced ( get included into the movie as a new cast) Yet all these removal and addition of casts by nature who is the movie producer is based on a preconceived thought.

If nature decides to pause or speed up itself then time speeds up for the cast in the movie just like the pause or fast forward of a video player.

The thought is the push, the movie producer is the reaction

The thought is the cause, the movie producer is the effect

The thought works outside time and no matter how hard time tries it cannot regulate or limit thought.

Good morning!

.

adepeter2027:

Lol

It's night naw....

BTW, you could drop ya email so I can contact you

if you draw a straight line, it has only one dimension and that is length. No width, only length - that is example of one dimension.

if you draw a square it has 2 dimension because it has both length and width.

a box is three dimensional it has length, width and height.

so a dimension is a point in space, add one point in space and you make an extra dimension

johnydon22:


if you draw a straight line, it has only one dimension and that is length. No width, only length - that is example of one dimension.

if you draw a square it has 2 dimension because it has both length and width.

a box is three dimensional it has length, width and height.

so a dimension is a point in space, add one point in space and you make an extra dimension

Following

butterflyl1on:


Your argument is faulty because it begins with a presupposition that God subscribes to YOUR idea of space and time. That being said let me correct some impressions.

Your analogy using a movies and the characters in the movie and them being subject to the timer on the movie isn't water tight.

Before you have any movie from a movie producer you first have THOUGHT! the movie producer receives an idea (thought) of the kind of movie he wishes to make and the duration of time he wants it to run for.

Notice that the movie producer is subject to his thoughts regarding

1. Type of movie
2 Type of characters
3. Duration of the movie

Based on that this is how I see your analogy.

Thought = God

Movie producer = Nature

Characters = Us

Time = brought in by the thought but not subject to it.

If you look at it critically, thought isn't subject to time. It does not follow any known parameters for time. 5 million people all over the world can be thinking about the same thing at the same time without being influenced by the same experience.

Someone who lived 100 years ago and thought about something back then, such a thought can also be conceived by someone who came 500 years later and both of them not being influenced by the same experiences, plus not knowing that someone else has already had this thought centuries before.

This is why I say the movie producer is nature: Nature has been here before us so nature works with a different time I. E is older than our time so in a sense nature can regulate our time but is regulated by something else.

Daily people die (get removed from on the movie) or get born aka produced ( get included into the movie as a new cast) Yet all these removal and addition of casts by nature who is the movie producer is based on a preconceived thought.

If nature decides to pause or speed up itself then time speeds up for the cast in the movie just like the pause or fast forward of a video player.

The thought is the push, the movie producer is the reaction

The thought is the cause, the movie producer is the effect

The thought works outside time and no matter how hard time tries it cannot regulate or limit thought.

Good morning!

read the post again you entirely miss the premise raised.

premise 1. A person outside (A) space and time and is in (B) space and time cannot perform actions as a person within Space/time (A)

premise 2. transcendency doesn't necessarily mean without any time and space.

Bonus question to touch your post a bit: Can there be thought without time?

If yes, give me one example of such a thought that didn't have a start.

if No, tell me why?

johnydon22:


read the post again you entirely miss the premise raised.

premise 1. A person outside (A) space and time and is in (B) space and time cannot perform actions as a person within Space/time (A)

premise 2. transcendency doesn't necessarily mean without any time and space.

Bonus question to touch your post a bit: Can there be thought without time?

If yes, give me one example of such a thought that didn't have a start.

if No, tell me why?

I already answered regarding time in my OP. Thought as we know it is not tangible and often not premeditated. We often do not decide when to think because thoughts "can simply just pop up".

However thought in order to be seen as thought needs to pass through us and be processed but does not mean that it is limited to us. It can only seem so but not actually so. We know it as thought when it pops up but not before. So if we cannot determine WHEN thought may decide to pop up this means we have no control.

Regarding your first comments on transcendency, transcendency is simply existence or experience beyond the normal or physical level. This means that it may not be a physical existence or experience but does not mean it cannot influence the physical existence or experience Just like thought not being subject to time yet can influence actions and existence and experiences.

In answer to your question about thoughts that didn't have a start.

1. There is what is known as spontaneous thoughts and you can read up on that here


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140527154746.htm

These are uncontrolled and unsourced thoughts which we receive daily.

For example. You can be doing something else like having a haircut at the barber shop when out of nowhere thoughts of " isabella" would just pop into your head. Who is Isabella? You have no idea. Have you ever met anyone with the name Isabella in your life? No but the thought is there.

Many instances of this abound. However we often have absolutely no control of the source or the kind of thought. They simply just appear.

Excellent proposition, Johnydon22. But I do not think anything stops "God" from intervening in the 2D spacetime, the same way nothing stops me from forwarding or rewinding a movie - I'm INFLUENCING it without ever stepping into the 2D spacetime. Although, my interference is still LIMITED (unlike that of the Abrahamic God who has free reign in our 3D spacetime, and can send his angels who're spirit beings and belong to another dimension to come into ours - with whatever kind of MAGIC]

The real issue is the difficulty in justifying the concept of being IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT at the same time, since the two terms seem somewhat contradictory.

Is God everywhere (immanent)? Does God exist outside our world (transcend it)? In other words, is he in or out of the world, in it or above it? Is he seperate from it (it's his Creation, but it's not him) or is the substance of God also the substance of the universe (hence God is immanent by definition - but PATHEISTIC in this case)? WHICH IS IT?

If God is everywhere, is he also in HELL? Is he in toilets, dump sites, brothels, club houses, kidnappers' den, terrorist hideouts?

Let the theists come and answer these questions, 'cause I think they're confused.

johnydon22:


it's just a mathematical projection of dimensions plus time in relativistic term which must equal to universal constant of (c) the speed of light.

I understood its implication, I just don't understand why or how such a mathematical formalism is applicable to the known laws of Physics.

there are two ways i can answer this.

1. Someone making a movie can do this, once the movie is released to the public you may change things in the movie but the pre-released movies cannot change anymore. take the extended versions of movies for example, the extended versions are just alternate versions of the first release. If you have the normal cut and extended version of Lord of the rings.
when you are watching the normal cut, things on the extended version won't appear but both are different universes therefore cannot affect each other.

so whatever version of one movie you are watching is just like an alternate universe.

2. Open any movie right now on your phone, then try changing what is happening there by plucking one out, killing someone inside the movie.

Fair enough! But your explanation only applies to post-release movies with multiple versions. Now let's suppose the movie only exists on some form of editable physical media or another, and there is only one copy of that media available (precluding possibilities of alternate universes), such that if the movie were edited in the way I previously described, there would still remain just one copy. Now, splicing new sections in the timeline of the movie will surely alter the fate of the characters, even if they (assuming they are sentient) don't realise this themselves.

You quite did not understand the analogy: let me try and see if i can break it down further. You are watching Lord of the rings, you phone, laptop or tv any device you are watching it with is a 2d projector. So this movie you are watching is on a 2d universe, you are on your couch with pop corn and you are outside that 2d universe and is in your 3d universe.

No matter what you do, it does not affect the movie, you as a person cannot perform actions within that 2d universe. Like say "tell frodo and sam to hide" and they hear you, match into the tv and assist them in a fight or pluck sauron out directly from your couch.

there is no way for you to get up from your couch and enter into that 2d dimension, and if you are peter jackson who made Lord of rings, what ever you add or remove from the already released movie can only make an alternate movie

Ultimately lead to an alternate universe like the extended version of Lord of the rings.

Yes, again, let's assume there can only be one copy of this movie on a single storage media in my possession. I agree that I can't directly tell Frodo and Sam to hide, but there are other ways I can interfere with their fate, like shooting a new scene with their characters doing what I want and then splicing this new scene into the single version I have. Even suppose we go with your multiverse solution, it's still an interference, albeit an imperceptible one, no? I've intentionally changed the unwinding of their timelines from a single possible outcome to a superposition of equally probable outcomes. They don't have to perceive such an interference themselves for it to occur!

You can interfere in a movie by pausing the time, hastening it, running the time backward but only you notices these changes, characters within your TV do not, but that is by the way.

The implications i tried to highlight was: a transcendent entity (you) cannot perform actions within a time and space it transcends (inside your tv)

Yes, the types of interference you've listed wouldn't affect the characters' lives, nor would they affect the the time and space in their universe. However, splicing new scenes will clearly affect the time and space of the characters in the movie, even if they don't notice. So, my thinking is, maybe this extradimensional god cannot directly interact with us as we interact with each other in our own dimension, but if this god were watching us like the unwinding of videos, then they can potentially effect changes in our own time, space and fate without us noticing.

AgentOfAllah:

I understood its implication, I just don't understand why or how such a mathematical formalism is applicable to the known laws of Physics.

Let me explain then.

Spatial dimensions XYZ + T must equal the speed of light as a constant.

This simple mathematics is the mechanism behind relativity.

XYZ+T=C

The faster you go on XYZ, T must adjust to still sum the total to C

So the faster you go on XYZ, the slow T becomes so the sum will equal C.

That is why in relativity time slows down the faster you go

I hope you understand its application to known laws of physics now.

Fair enough! But your explanation only applies to post-release movies with multiple versions. Now let's suppose the movie only exists on some form of editable physical media or another, and there is only one copy of that media available (precluding possibilities of alternate universes), such that if the movie were edited in the way I previously described, there would still remain just one copy. Now, splicing new sections in the timeline of the movie will surely alter the fate of the characters, even if they (assuming they are sentient) don't realise this themselves.


Yes, again, let's assume there can only be one copy of this movie on a single storage media in my possession. I agree that I can't directly tell Frodo and Sam to hide, but there are other ways I can interfere with their fate, like shooting a new scene with their characters doing what I want and then splicing this new scene into the single version I have. Even suppose we go with your multiverse solution, it's still an interference, albeit an imperceptible one, no? I've intentionally changed the unwinding of their timelines from a single possible outcome to a superposition of equally probable outcomes. They don't have to perceive such an interference themselves for it to occur!

You have steered away from my original analogy, my analogy on the OP referred to already released movie and in particular one that you are watching on your device.

So for we to assume a pre-released still under production then we are into a different assumptive premise all together than becomes non-sequitor to the original analogy.

If you are watching Hobbit on your phone and I am also watching Hobbit on mine. Its different plains (universes) we both are holding different dimensional plains in our hands, different universes.

Yes, the types of interference you've listed wouldn't affect the characters' lives, nor would they affect the the time and space in their universe. However, splicing new scenes will clearly affect the time and space of the characters in the movie, even if they don't notice. So, my thinking is, maybe this extradimensional god cannot directly interact with us as we interact with each other in our own dimension, but if this god were watching us like the unwinding of videos, then they can potentially effect changes in our own time, space and fate without us noticing.

Note my statement. You cannot exist or act as a person within a time and space you transcend.

Keyword: Person.

You may pause, fast forward and rewind a movie but you sitting on that couch cannot be a person inside that movie even if you are watching a movie you are part of .

ToZaraWithaZ:
Excellent proposition, Johnydon22. But I do not think anything stops "God" from intervening in the 2D spacetime, the same way nothing stops me from forwarding or rewinding a movie - I'm INFLUENCING it without ever stepping into the 2D spacetime. Although, my interference is still LIMITED (unlike that of the Abrahamic God who has free reign in our 3D spacetime, and can send his angels who're spirit beings and belong to another dimension to come into ours - with whatever kind of MAGIC]

The real issue is the difficulty in justifying the concept of being IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT at the same time, since the two terms seem somewhat contradictory.

Is God everywhere (immanent)? Does God exist outside our world (transcend it)? In other words, is he in or out of the world, in it or above it? Is he seperate from it (it's his Creation, but it's not him) or is the substance of God also the substance of the universe (hence God is immanent by definition - but PATHEISTIC in this case)? WHICH IS IT?

If God is everywhere, is he also in HELL? Is he in toilets, dump sites, brothels, club houses, kidnappers' den, terrorist hideouts?

Let the theists come and answer these questions, 'cause I think they're confused.

From my OP

Note my statement. You cannot exist or act as a person within a time and space you transcend.

Keyword: Person.

You may pause, fast forward and rewind a movie but you sitting on that couch cannot be a person inside that movie even if you are watching a movie with your pictures .

johnydon22:


From my OP

Note my statement. You cannot exist or act as a person within a time and space you transcend.

Keyword: Person.

You may pause, fast forward and rewind a movie but you sitting on that couch cannot be a person inside that movie even if you are watching a movie with your pictures .

Indeed. You cannot act as a PERSON within a spacetime you transcend. True.

But the theist might still argue that it's a PHYSICAL LAW that does not apply to his God. How would you answer this?

ToZaraWithaZ:
Indeed. You cannot act as a PERSON within a spacetime you transcend. True.

That is exactly the implications exposed in the OP which is in direct contradiction with the ideas of theism as I showed.

In theism God operates within the universe, fights battles and all - For this to be so God must be a person within this universe if God transcends this universe then God cannot perform actions as a person within this universe.

The transcendent argument contradicts theism but can be reconciled with Deism in a broad sense

ToZaraWithaZ:


But the theist might still argue that it's a PHYSICAL LAW that does not apply to his God. How would you answer this?

Such a person must demonstrate how a transcend beings can operate as a person in other dimensions that they transcend.

I have shown how it cannot be using known laws of physics, such a person must not just say it but show it using understandable logic and reason.

In argument its not just enough to say "this is like this" you must show how, because everyone can still make unsupported statements but what makes a claim or idea credible is its ability to be demonstrated or falsified

johnydon22:


That is exactly the implications exposed in the OP which is in direct contradiction with the ideas of theism as I showed.

In theism God operates within the universe, fights battles and all - For this to be so God must be a person within this universe if God transcends this universe then God cannot perform actions as a person within this universe.

The transcendent argument contradicts theism but can be reconciled with Deism in a broad sense

True. The transcendent argument contradicts theism. But it's the BASIS on which we establish this that is at issue - since the counterargument must be one that can work against the theist and the entirety of his ideas.

I've edited the post, bruv. Check it out.

johnydon22:


Such a person must demonstrate how a transcend beings can operate as a person in other dimensions that they transcend.

I have shown how it cannot be using known laws of physics, such a person must not just say it but show it using understandable logic and reason.

In argument its not just enough to say "this is like this" you must show how, because everyone can still make unsupported statements but what makes a claim or idea credible is its ability to be demonstrated or falsified

I agree with you, totally. My point is that theists do not concede in the face of logic and reason.

They use "logic" and "reason" in defending God, in making commentaries about him. But the most ridiculous aspects of their bullshiit are made "immune" to rational bullets by being said to transcend the domain of logic and reason.

They're practically removing you from the sane zone and demanding that you take a step into the madhouse - where you won't be safe.

Use this valid argument against KingEbukasBlog, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I admit that my human, finite mind cannot grasp the whole of reality, especially as it concerns GOD. However, I'm gonna point out some things.

First, cartoons(eg. Tom & Jerry) can also be watched like movies. We all know that cartoons are motion pictures i.e. an episode of Tom & Jerry is simply a series of pictures in rapid succession that creates an illusion of motion. Tom and Jerry do not exist. A movie, for what it's worth, is no different from Tom & Jerry. Any movie or video watched on a screen can be considered as a succession of images. The natural thing to do when you see a movie is to assume that it is simply a succession of finely painted color images. Therefore, to me, saying that we are not within the space and time of the movie raises the question: who is within the space and time of the movie? Indeed, does the movie have space and time? Tom & Jerry are not really doing action in the cartoon. Instead, pictures depicting Tom & Jerry in distinct positions follow themselves in rapid succession, and it creates an illusion of motion. The same goes for any movie. The characters aren't really doing action: instead, pictures of the characters in different, distinct positions following themselves in rapid succession create an illusion of action, which otherwise does not exist.

Second, you seem to assume that there are different spaces and times for different dimensions of existence, hence your ascribing space and time to the movie. You also assume that time can be paused. That raises the question: what is time? Are there different times in different dimensions? Can time be paused? When you touch your screen, and the movie timer stops maybe at "00:32:17", has time really stopped? I believe that time exists only in the mind, and thus cannot be stopped or paused. Imagine that all the clocks and watches and timepieces on this earth are destroyed, so that there is nothing on earth with which to count time: in that case, has time been paused? If no, why?

I have a definition of time that goes like this: time is the abstract phenomenon which can only be expressed as the immaterial difference between two states(of things). I also believe that time is the same everywhere, both in this universe and outside of this universe.

On whether GOD can perform any action in the universe even though He exists outside of it, I say He must necessarily be able to do so for Him to be omnipotent.

ToZaraWithaZ:
I agree with you, totally. My point is that theists do not concede in the face of logic and reason.

They use "logic" and "reason" in defending God, in making commentaries about him. But the most ridiculous aspects of their bullshiit are made "immune" to rational bullets by being said to transcend the domain of logic and reason.

They're practically removing you from the sane zone and demanding that you take a step into the madhouse - where you won't be safe.

Use this valid argument against KingEbukasBlog, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

There is nothing valid about the argument so I'm not sure what should be used against me .

About How a transcendent God could operate within a finite universe or outside and even inside of time , you can watch intellectuals like Alvin Plantinga , Craig Williams explain on Youtube or read their books . Williams Craig even wrote a book about it in the 1990s , even Platinga wrote in the 70s about this . Twenty to 40 years later an atheist still does not get it . Blame the atheist's inability to comprehend not the theist's .





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUnlqd0yeK0



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt2lueTLHF4




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfzD3ofUb4


Physicist and Christian theologian Isaac Newton believed that God operates inside of time or has always been in time and space . There is no general consensus on how God relates with time . So there is no point arguing .