hopefulLandlord:


I see you've given up on that so let me break it down further for you

What would convince an unbeliever? TBH I don't know, neither do you, not even the unbeliever knows for sure

an unbeliever might say god should come down but even that is not sure to convince the unbeliever if the entity does that

think about how many Christians would dump Christianity if Vishnu comes down and reveals himself to them as the true god, would that convince all Christians? No! not even the majority

we now turn to your god and look at his attributes then make some conclusions from that

an omnipresent god is everywhere and with OP right now

an omniscient god knows specifically what can convince the OP even more than OP himself, that's an absolute fact cuz even OP may not know what would convince OP, he might say an amputee healing, mountain moving, the entity coming down but we can't be sure if that would actually convince him for sure but an omniscient god does cuz if this entity were real, he must know OP more than OP knows himself; this is were you strawmanned me by stating that I want the entity to come down which I didn't

even if a god comes down, there would still be unbelievers, why? because while the entity did what he knew would convince the majority, he didn't do what would convince some, we all have individual differences and these differences apply in every facet of life and is no different when it comes to belief/unbelief in gods, that's why 20 people can listen to a sales pitch, 5 buys into the idea, 10 are not convinced and 5 are totally against the idea, even those sets can still move categories with time


let's move on to the next attribute

whatever that omniscient god knows would convince OP and omnipotent god can do

an omnibelevolent god would want to convince OP of his existence

the fact that a god with all these attributes need humans to spread the idea of his existence like all these attributes don't apply makes one wonder.......

Only one thing might convince an atheist: a physical manifestation of the personality of God.

You rightly said it.
Nothing will convince ALL humans no matter how God decides to show Himself.

The fact that He even attempts to show Himself is enough proof for some that He cannot be the Dirty who created everything.

Let everyone live with his conscience. If you feel your existence is real, how did you then arrive here? How did the first DNA arrive? I know! Through evolutions of chemical reactions....the infinite regression of the cause of the cause of the cause of the origin of everything is too mind boggling to us the simple minded...our conclusion, GOD!

Not every atheist disbelieve the existence of the First Cause and Origin of Everything some atheists Reject Him...He could do His worst! The Almighty God will NOT force your WILL to His own. That's the power reserved only for you. You choose what you will!

dalaman:


He told you the same thing himself. You clearly didn't understand his post.

And you did understand his post!

shadeyinka:


Only one thing might convince an atheist: a physical manifestation of the personality of God.

anything might convince an atheist, ANYTHING!!! not necessarily physical manifestation

You rightly said it.
Nothing will convince ALL humans no matter how God decides to show Himself.

and I explained why, because there is individual differences and an omniscient god knows what would convince each human

one can also say this omniscient entity must also know what would convince every human collectively, if this entity doesn't know what can convince everyone then this entity is not omniscient

The fact that He even attempts to show Himself is enough proof for some that He cannot be the Dirty who created everything.

you keep saying "show himself" that's not what I'm saying here, I've not mentioned a specific thing but an omniscient being KNOWS what would convince someone who doesn't believe in him

Let everyone live with his conscience. If you feel your existence is real, how did you then arrive here? How did the first DNA arrive? I know! Through evolutions of chemical reactions....the infinite regression of the cause of the cause of the cause of the origin of everything is too mind boggling to us the simple minded...our conclusion, GOD!

you just veered off topic

Not every atheist disbelieve the existence of the First Cause and Origin of Everything some atheists Reject Him...He could do His worst! The Almighty God will NOT force your WILL to His own. That's the power reserved only for you. You choose what you will!

even with all my explanations you seem not to get it, its a pity

hopefulLandlord:


I see you've given up on that so let me break it down further for you

What would convince an unbeliever? TBH I don't know, neither do you, not even the unbeliever knows for sure

an unbeliever might say god should come down but even that is not sure to convince the unbeliever if the entity does that

think about how many Christians would dump Christianity if Vishnu comes down and reveals himself to them as the true god, would that convince all Christians? No! not even the majority

we now turn to your god and look at his attributes then make some conclusions from that

an omnipresent god is everywhere and with OP right now

an omniscient god knows specifically what can convince the OP even more than OP himself, that's an absolute fact cuz even OP may not know what would convince OP, he might say an amputee healing, mountain moving, the entity coming down but we can't be sure if that would actually convince him for sure but an omniscient god does cuz if this entity were real, he must know OP more than OP knows himself; this is were you strawmanned me by stating that I want the entity to come down which I didn't

even if a god comes down, there would still be unbelievers, why? because while the entity did what he knew would convince the majority, he didn't do what would convince some, we all have individual differences and these differences apply in every facet of life and is no different when it comes to belief/unbelief in gods, that's why 20 people can listen to a sales pitch, 5 buys into the idea, 10 are not convinced and 5 are totally against the idea, even those sets can still move categories with time


let's move on to the next attribute

whatever that omniscient god knows would convince OP and omnipotent god can do

an omnibelevolent god would want to convince OP of his existence

the fact that a god with all these attributes need humans to spread the idea of his existence like all these attributes don't apply makes one wonder.......

And you are correct. Even if God comes down physically, it would not convince men. Why?
Man has a free will to choose to ignor, reject, disregard, ...the reality of God.

Hence, its not Gods duty to reveal Himself to you. It is your duty to relate to Him. You want a god you can call down at will, sorry He isn't like that.

As you've said, nothing will convince an adamant human being.

You made an assumption:
The Omnibenevolent god will want to convince the OP of His existence.

OP always knew of Gods existence until he became wiser enough to reject this God until this God will bend down to his level.

God respects the choice of the OP!

Let me ask you a question hopefulLandlord:
If this world was an examination for selection of some certain traits, would it be proper for the examiner to write the answer for the candidate?

hopefulLandlord:


anything might convince an atheist, ANYTHING!!! not necessarily physical manifestation

and I explained why, because there is individual differences and an omniscient god knows what would convince each human

one can also say this omniscient entity must also know what would convince every human collectively, if this entity doesn't know what can convince everyone then this entity is not omniscient

you keep saying "show himself" that's not what I'm saying here, I've not mentioned a specific thing but an omniscient being KNOWS what would convince someone who doesn't believe in him

you just veered off topic

even with all my explanations you seem not to get it, its a pity

Atheists are atheists because they have not seen/perceived enough (physical ) evidence of the existence of God.

What else will convince most atheists? If God could be physically evaluated. That is my point.

I thought my reply vanished hence the second post

shadeyinka:

Let me ask you a question hopefulLandlord:
If this world was an examination for selection of some certain traits, would it be proper for the examiner to write the answer for the candidate?

Questions such as these keep making me think all the attributes you claim your god has is simply an invention of men

first off, your question excludes omniscience in order to make the question sound a bit valid, here's why, the examiner supposedly created the test subjects with their own differences

secondly, the examiner would not omniscient in order for the test to make even a modicum of sense otherwise it becomes just a formality because an omniscient examiner knows down to the letter what the result of each and every examinee would be even before they sat down for the test and an examinee that he knows would show a particular trait CAN'T possibly show another trait!

hopefulLandlord:


Questions such as these keep making me think all the attributes you claim your god has is simply an invention of men

If I quote the Bible or any Spiritual book, would you have respected it?
I used what you can relate with, you say all the attributes are inventions of men

I ask you now, what is your suggestion of a logical way to discuss with an atheist?

hopefulLandlord:

first off, your question excludes omniscience in order to make the question sound a bit valid, here's why, the examiner supposedly created the test subjects with their own differences

secondly, the examiner would not omniscient in order for the test to make even a modicum of sense otherwise it becomes just a formality because an omniscient examiner knows down to the letter what the result of each and every examinee would be even before they sat down for the test and an examinee that he knows would show a particular trait CAN'T possibly show another trait!

My question does not exclude omniscience. It actually is about fairness.

1. Lets assume God decided to judge you based on His foreknowledge that you would turn out to be an atheist, would that be fair on you?

You would have told God that "He made a mistake".
Why should God pass judgement upon he who has not been proven beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he is guilty?

So, FAIRNESS!
You Pass or Fail the Selection process by yourself.

2. Independence of Will and Volition of Man:
A gift of Freewill can only be real when the freewill is allowed to function fully. That includes the ability to reject or accept God.

A question for you Hopeful landlord:
Can one be said to have freewill and still be constrained to act perfectly and according to Gods will?

seems you've changed the topic, okay let's go

shadeyinka:


If I quote the Bible or any Spiritual book, would you have respected it?
I used what you can relate with, you say all the attributes are inventions of men

I ask you now, what is your suggestion of a logical way to discuss with an atheist?

about the existence of your god? nothing!!!!!

My question does not exclude omniscience. It actually is about fairness.

1. Lets assume God decided to judge you based on His foreknowledge that you would turn out to be an atheist, would that be fair on you?

he would still do that eventually, right? all these are just formalities, I'm making the choices he knew I would make so its still the same no matter which way you flip it

You would have told God that "He made a mistake".
Why should God pass judgement upon he who has not been proven beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he is guilty?

if Yahweh is real and he knows I'll eat fried rice tonight, is it possible for me to eat beans instead? I want your answer to this

So, FAIRNESS!
You Pass or Fail the Selection process by yourself.

I'm afraid NO! if he knows I'll fail, I can't possibly pass, if he doesn't know, then why call him omniscient?

2. Independence of Will and Volition of Man:
A gift of Freewill can only be real when the freewill is allowed to function fully. That includes the ability to reject or accept God.

absolute bull, freewill is a paradox or an illusion when dealing with an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent entity, its common sense

A question for you Hopeful landlord:
Can one be said to have freewill and still be constrained to act perfectly and according to Gods will?

change "god's will" to "god's foreknowledge" and I'll say an emphatic No!

there's absolutely no freewill with an entity that has foreknowledge

hopefulLandlord:
seems you've changed the topic, okay let's go


about the existence of your god? nothing!!!!!

I didn't change the topic. I answered you.

Since your answer is nothing! Its either there is no way any intelligent conversation can take place or you accept whatever I write as my views ( you don't have to agree with it)

hopefulLandlord:

he would still do that eventually, right? all these are just formalities, I'm making the choices he knew I would make so its still the same no matter which way you flip it

if Yahweh is real and he knows I'll eat fried rice tonight, is it possible for me to eat beans instead? I want your answer to this

He actually saw you eating fried rice and not beans, He knows, because He isn't bound by time.

hopefulLandlord:

I'm afraid NO! if he knows I'll fail, I can't possibly pass, if he doesn't know, then why call him omniscient?

absolute bull, freewill is a paradox or an illusion when dealing with an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent entity, its common sense

You have based your assumption on a linear time.
Unfortunately, God existed before time so, he isn't bound by the rules of time.

God saw you when you failed. However since you are bound by time, you have to choose your path.

You have power over your present.
God has seen your decision from the past.
Its all about you. What ever you choose to do in the present has only been seen by God

hopefulLandlord:

change "god's will" to "god's foreknowledge" and I'll say an emphatic No!

there's absolutely no freewill with an entity that has foreknowledge

Is Foreknowledge the same as Predestination?

No! Can't change Gods will to Gods foreknowledge.
If God forces us to do only the right things can we still be said to have free will? Capital NO!

Gods foreknowledge is His ability to preview the present /future from the past.
Predestination is a constraint to act in a certain way in the future. I guess you've read "The gods are not to blame"