historyworld031:
This is nonensical. History relies on historical documents, not feelings and ethnocentrism.
I have difficulties calling this guy a historian because he is not acting as such.
Thank God I studied in europe right from primary school, they were able to teach me the sense of the word history.
You can't tell a story which happened more than 1000 years ago without documents made 1000 years ago or archeological dicoveries.
Now this guy is talking about things he alledges happened 3000 years ago and he has nothing to back his claims except his degree ?!
That is not how history works, having a degree doesn't make you above scrutiny, your work is supposed to be seen and published with all the proof backing it just like in any other accademic field. You can't just start making things up because you have a doctorate in history. This is the reason nobody takes yoruba historians seriously.

Opiletool:


Can you do me a favour please?

Stop engaging that slowpoke. He's a renowned bozo in the culture section of nairaland. Don't allow him drag you into his fold.

historyworld031:
don't claim to know something if no proof was shown to you.
Lagos was part of the Benin Kingdom. That is the only Verrifyable fact and here is proof:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlUMUGUorw


Some ancient maps of Benin Kingdom:

This one dates to around 1699:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595525w/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8469390z/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595527q/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

The story about the awori doesn't come with any sort of proof.
Also when did some people start referring to themselves as yoruba ?

Christistruth00:




Do you know that it is on record that in ancient times Benin actually paid tribute to the Alaafin of Oyo?
The Ogamien family of Benin,the Ijaws and Itsekiris can help you cut through the propaganda and confirm it for you.

Morenikeji900:
Bleep off Awori have already told does fighting for Edo people should please if they know they are not yoruba that they can head back to there so called Edo Kingdom lols we are really proud of our yoruba lands. OSUN & OYO & LAGOS & ONDO & EKITI. (KWARA) Awori is the owner of Lagos. if people like keep yelling we yoruba grant all you bleeping dog freedom of speech tho but the Yoruba are waiting for you all stupid fool like you

Christistruth00:




Do you know that it is on record that in ancient times Benin actually paid tribute to the Alaafin of Oyo?
The Ogamien family of Benin,the Ijaws and Itsekiris can help you cut through the propaganda and confirm ithis for you.

historyworld031:
An other non Edo who believes he knows Edo history more than Edos.
First of all, the ogiamen is a known imposter (everybody knows that except you).
Second of all, show me the record which shows the Benin Kingdom paying tribute to the much younger and smaller and weaker oyo kingdom which got its ass kicked by the fulani.

Look, I get it, you want to uplift your tribe and claim that your king is the greatest whatever historical reality may be. It is only natural, but don't disrespect me by throwing this your mental disability on me. It is not my fault that the Oba of Benin had a powerful kingdom which incorporated almost all of southern nigeria into an empire and even went beyond southern nigeria.

A fact is a fact, it is funny that you want to say that pre-colonial maps made several hundred years ago are propaganda. Yep, I went back in time with my time machine and I conspired with some map makers several hundred years ago to do propaganda.


I think you should try and deal with your low self estim on your own without trying to drag other people in it.
Also it seems that to you some uneducated ijaw are now the owners of Edo history ?
You really lack logics my friend. I an Edo should go and ask some ijaw fishermen about my history which I have been learning since I was a toddler ? And with historical documents such as pre-colonial maps and notes and the Benin Bronzes (I guess you consider those propaganda as well), and with eye witness accounts of people like my great-grand mother.

macof:


Where do you get all this things From? What record?

historyworld031:
An other non Edo who believes he knows Edo history more than Edos.
First of all, the ogiamen is a known imposter (everybody knows that except you).
Second of all, show me the record which shows the Benin Kingdom paying tribute to the much younger and smaller and weaker oyo kingdom which got its ass kicked by the fulani.

Look, I get it, you want to uplift your tribe and claim that your king is the greatest whatever historical reality may be. It is only natural, but don't disrespect me by throwing this your mental disability on me. It is not my fault that the Oba of Benin had a powerful kingdom which incorporated almost all of southern nigeria into an empire and even went beyond southern nigeria.

A fact is a fact, it is funny that you want to say that pre-colonial maps made several hundred years ago are propaganda. Yep, I went back in time with my time machine and I conspired with some map makers several hundred years ago to do propaganda.


I think you should try and deal with your low self estim on your own without trying to drag other people in it.
Also it seems that to you some uneducated ijaw are now the owners of Edo history ?
You really lack logics my friend. I an Edo should go and ask some ijaw fishermen about my history which I have been learning since I was a toddler ? And with historical documents such as pre-colonial maps and notes and the Benin Bronzes (I guess you consider those propaganda as well), and with eye witness accounts of people like my great-grand mother.

Christistruth00:


Please read this document written by Sir Alfred Moloney British Colonial Governor of Lagos written in 1890 start from the 4th paragraph .It is not news that Benin paid tribute to Oranmiyan after he left Benin and became the Alaafin of Oyo except to the revisionists.Even non Yorubas know this fact as you can see from the historical narration of the Ijaws. Thank you.

historyworld031:
An other non Edo who believes he knows Edo history more than Edos.
First of all, the ogiamen is a known imposter (everybody knows that except you).
Second of all, show me the record which shows the Benin Kingdom paying tribute to the much younger and smaller and weaker oyo kingdom which got its ass kicked by the fulani.

Look, I get it, you want to uplift your tribe and claim that your king is the greatest whatever historical reality may be. It is only natural, but don't disrespect me by throwing this your mental disability on me. It is not my fault that the Oba of Benin had a powerful kingdom which incorporated almost all of southern nigeria into an empire and even went beyond southern nigeria.

A fact is a fact, it is funny that you want to say that pre-colonial maps made several hundred years ago are propaganda. Yep, I went back in time with my time machine and I conspired with some map makers several hundred years ago to do propaganda.

I think you should try and deal with your low self estim on your own without trying to drag other people in it.
Also it seems that to you some uneducated ijaw are now the owners of Edo history ?
You really lack logics my friend. I an Edo should go and ask some ijaw fishermen about my history which I have been learning since I was a toddler ? And with historical documents such as pre-colonial maps and notes and the Benin Bronzes (I guess you consider those propaganda as well), and with eye witness accounts of people like my great-grand mother.

macof:
Yes oranmiyan was king at Uselu, but he wasn't even allowed to enter Bini city and function properly as King over the Kingdom. So how would Binis who he left his son to rule over pay him tributes in Oyo? His descendants had to fight their way into Bini city and establish their contol over Bini

As to the document I am certain, Benin mentioned there refers to Benin Republic, it is unarguable that the Bariba and Fons of Benin republic came under Oyo. the Ewes are found in Ghana and Togo, over them Oyo also held sway but no Bini or Edo

Christistruth00:


Oranmiyan was a Yoruba man,and because he set up the monarchy of Benin ,Benin became his tributary ,that is the way the Yorubas do it even the Ga of Accra paid tribute to the Alaafin of Oyo in the seventeenth century.Benin means Edo. Dahomey is mentioned separately.
As the Alaafin of Oyo Benin paid tribute to Oranmiyan, respectfully the Oba of Benin will not dare deny it.

Christistruth00:


Please read this document written by Sir Alfred Moloney British Colonial Governor of Lagos written in 1890 start from the 4th paragraph .It is not news that Benin paid tribute to Oranmiyan after he left Benin and became the Alaafin of Oyo except to the revisionists.Even non Yorubas know this fact as you can see from the historical narration of the Ijaws. Thank you.

macof:
to refute his claim you had to insult Oyo?
I'll use your own line

"Look, I get it, you want to uplift your tribe and claim that your king is the greatest whatever historical reality may be. It is only natural, but don't disrespect me by throwing this your mental disability on me"

Oyo was stronger, larger and better organised. The imperial efforts of Oyo in all ramifications trump that of Bini by a long mile. From exposing and extending its language and culture, to establishing outposts ran by imperial tax collectors, creating regions and provinces
Oyo empire at it's greatest heights covered lands reaching the Volta river. Having a kingdom as powerful as dahomey as a vassal.

You don't put Bini above Oyo in terms of might and imperial organization...thats just stupid

Modern Oyo and Osun states are the size of the entire now defunt Bini empire. An Empire the size of just two states in SW encompass almost all of southern Nigeria? You don't know how big southern Nigeria is do you?

Christistruth00:
...

historyworld031:
Look when you post a map, you have to reference it by posting the website in which you got it so that I can go there myself and verify the authenticity of the map and the date of the map.
It doesn't suffice that you just say "the map comes from ...it was made in ...", I need to be able to verify those things myself.
Also find me a document more than 200 years old in which the word yoruba is mentionned.
ALso I have respect for Ijebu and in no way do I consider them yoruba. They are Ijebu, that is the name of their people, that is a real name, not some name made by haussa and used indiscriminatly to describe people they knew nothing about (y.a.r.i.b.a)

Christistruth00:


Are you disputing the map?

Christistruth00:


Are you disputing the map or are you disputing that
Ijebus are Yorubas?
I would like to remind you that Awolowo who you love to hate was an Ijebu man.

Christistruth00:


Oranmiyan was a Yoruba man,and because he set up the monarchy of Benin ,Benin became his tributary ,that is the way the Yorubas did it then ,even the Ga of Accra paid tribute to the Alaafin of Oyo in the seventeenth century.Benin means Edo in the British colonial Governors document and history confirms it .Dahomey is mentioned separately.
As the Alaafin of Oyo and even after , Benin paid tribute to Oranmiyan , respectfully the Oba of Benin will not deny it.

macof:


If at all one must claim bini paid tributes it would make a lot more sense to say to Ife, but absolutely not to Oyo

The Ga of accra have nothing to do with this issue.

I just read that the document you shared was written in 1890, that means he wasn't referring to Benin republic as i early postulated. But you have to take European documents with little seriousness, many of such documents lack the knowledge of the simple geography and politics of the areas they write about, that is how the buffoon historyworld031 keeps talking about some european maps that every sane person can see as error filled.

In Africa history today, students learn to take so called "european sources" with high level of scrutiny, there has to be traditional evidence.

historyworld031:
Sentiments wont change the fact that your oyo was a small and young kingdom when it got its ass kicked by the fulani who the Benin Kingdom also fought but defeated.
You can't change the fact that the Benin kingdom fought against the british while oyo welcomed the british as liberators from fulani pressure.
You can't change the fact that Benin Kingdomhad a real imperial palace when they fought the british, the palace was so big that the portuguese say it occupied half of Benin city (the capital of Benin Kingdom).
You can't change the fact about the Benin bronzes.
You can't change the past, you can only change the future.

macof:

1. there is no sentiment in my posts. i just see it as stupidity for anyone to claim oyo as a kingdom or empire was smaller than bini.
2. fulani are renowned fighters in africa, they have been involved in some of the greatest west african millitary and political movements, from the Moors, to the Malian empire, to the Songhai, to Sokoto, to present Nigeria... to establish Sokoto caliphate(which ruled over most of Northern and Central Nigeria) they usurped power from the reputable Hausa kings
so i don't know why you think the fulani are not capable or an insignificant people... goes to show that your stupidity i talk about
3. Oyo empire did not fall simply to fulani defeat, Oyo empire itself was split, with Ilorin(a military and supplies stronghold) declaring independence and war on Oyo. the Ilorin movement was executed by many Oyo muslims(Oyo themselves) who acquired assistance from Sokoto and freed slaves of the Oyo empire. So it was majorly Oyo empire against itself
4. It was Nupe who Bini fought not Fulani
5. Oyo welcoming the british due to Ilorin pressure after its fall doesn't take away the history of its might during it's imperial days.. use common sense
6. Bini bronzes and palace have nothing to do the size and imperial might

historyworld031:
Throwing insults doesn't change facts.
You just can't defeat eye witness accounts with your so called "oral history".
nOW YOU WANT TO CALIM THAT bENIN KINGDOM PAID TRIBUTE TO littel ife village which didn't even have a military worth talking about !?
Yet I guess all the people who visited our ancestors managed to miss that completely in the texts which the wrote.
You call yourself a historian yet you can't even notice the alleged date of a document ?
ALso, you don't seem to understand the fondamental concept of HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS. If you write a text describing what took place 300 years before writing your text then you are not writing a historical document. If you write a text today about what is taking place today, then you are writing a historical document. But you don't know this, you are high on the "oral history" which every historian know are easily tempered with. That is why europe doesn't rely on oral history anymore. Religion itself is nothing but oral history (if you look at the old testament, you would notice that it is written thousands of years after the events it describes) or fantastic history.
Any objective erson can see that I am the one whom is using his brain here while you are talking out of sentiments and ignorance.

macof:



European sources are largely not "eye witness" accounts. The concept of historical document belongs to the topic of Historical Source which can be either primary or secondary category. Africa lacks written records therefore the concept of historical documents are majorly considered secondary source

direct me to any reputable historian who has ever debunked oral traditions as a valid source in African history, it is in fact impossible,
Types of Historical sources include ; texts, objects, abstracts and oral
oral and abstract sources will always be included as a source especially in africa

And just because something is written doesn't make it historically accurate, hence the need for Source scrutiny

SicilianMafia:
[s][/s]

Stop talking trash!!

macof:



European sources are largely not "eye witness" accounts. The concept of historical document belongs to the topic of Historical Source which can be either primary or secondary category. Africa lacks written records therefore the concept of historical documents are majorly considered secondary source

direct me to any reputable historian who has ever debunked oral traditions as a valid source in African history, it is in fact impossible,
Types of Historical sources include ; texts, objects, abstracts and oral
oral and abstract sources will always be included as a source especially in africa

And just because something is written doesn't make it historically accurate, hence the need for Source scrutiny

SicilianMafia:
[s][/s]

Stop talking trash!!

historyworld031:
1) The fulani have actually been very subservant to european countries and arab countries. They are a people who have the reputation of doing the bidding of the white whom they serve in a master slave relationship.

2) You have to try and be honnest with yourself, throwing insults shows that you are talking out of sentiments. Then you go on with your sentimental guess work about the size of oyo and so on. The size of the Benin empire is on pre-colonial maps and available for all to see.

3) You keep calling Benin by "bini" for what reason exactly ? I still can't figure.


4)Then you go and claim oyo empire (there is still no proof that oyo were ever an empire).

5) Good work at trying to glorify the fulani in order to make the defeat of oyo (which had to run away from its capital and establish itself in a forrest) look like a glorious thing.

6) The Benin Kingdom fought many wars and one of those was against the fulani jihadists and Benin won. I know you believe that if your yoruba people can't do something, then surely nobody else can (sentiments).

7) I don't see the point of talking to you, you lack self awearness and you know nothing about history.

8 ) by the way nice work at attributing each black african islamic kingdom to the fulani, it really show your kind of "historian", the kind who thinks all black muslims were fulani.

macof:



European sources are largely not "eye witness" accounts. The concept of historical document belongs to the topic of Historical Source which can be either primary or secondary category. Africa lacks written records therefore the concept of historical documents are majorly considered secondary source

direct me to any reputable historian who has ever debunked oral traditions as a valid source in African history, it is in fact impossible,
Types of Historical sources include ; texts, objects, abstracts and oral
oral and abstract sources will always be included as a source especially in africa

And just because something is written doesn't make it historically accurate, hence the need for Source scrutiny

macof:

setting up a monarchy doesnt make the town a tributary, it depends on what ever arrangement was involved in the process and as far as established accounts go, no arrangement of tributary was done between Oyo and Bini
If at all one must claim bini paid tributes it would make a lot more sense to say to Ife, but absolutely not to Oyo

The Ga of accra have nothing to do with this issue.

I just read that the document you shared was written in 1890, that means he wasn't referring to Benin republic as i early postulated. But you have to take European documents with little seriousness, many of such documents lack the knowledge of the simple geography and politics of the areas they write about, that is how the buffoon historyworld031 keeps talking about some european maps that every sane person can see as error filled.

In Africa history today, students learn to take so called "european sources" with high level of scrutiny, there has to be traditional evidence.