How come the Lord Jesus, Peter (the Rock) and Paul had jobs yet pastors today and their acolytes say they are too busy doing God's work to have time for "honest" work? Are they better than the Lord Jesus or more anointed than Peter and Paul?

Some will say there is no record of Jesus working during his 3 year ministry or Peter working after Jesus called Him. However, Paul seems  today the father of modern Christianity yet boasted that he lived off his labor and did not depend on anyone. Why then cannot our pastors today find honest labor and use their substance from such duty for God's work like Paul did?

The reason is Christ, Peter and Paul did not abuse "tithes and offerings" to enrich themselves. It was meant for the poor and those in need.

@David:

[1] Any succint Biblical support for this point of view? BTW, you're preaching to the choir but it'd be nice if viewers have biblical references to show the truth.

[2] Any suggestions on how to educate Christians on the truth?

InesQor:

where are you?

All those people that you mentioned when they started the full time ministry, they took the work of the Lord as a full time.

I apologize in advance for the next two posts, they may be a bit long.

I'll highlight my points before I proceed to explain my understanding, in the next post.

1. Pastoring is a gift and not an occupation.

2. It is an extra responsibility in addition to your job, and NOT a job.

3. Pastors are not meant to be confined to a congregation that meets once, twice, thrice or more times a week.

4. A pastor is a shepherd of God's flock, and God's flock includes every and anyone you meet, that has a heart that is hungry for God.

4. A pastor does not have a congregation, but GOD has congregations that he assigns to pastors to take care of (John 21:15-17)

5. The congregations may not necessarily be Christians, in fact, but their hearts are seeking the truth (Matt 8:12-13, Luke 15:4, Luke 15:7)

6. It is the duty of the Pastor to guide/shepherd the congregation to the God they seek, as much as it's the duty of a herder of sheep to guide the sheep to lush green landscapes where their hearts would be content.

7. The pastoral gift, like every other gift, is designed to give an advantage, to open doors into the pastor's future. e.g. when David was a pastor of sheep, he had to defend the sheep against wild animals. This gave him a bold advantage against Goliath.

8. The pastor's congregation is NOT meant to be so large that the pastor does not know the sheep on an individual basis. It's better to have a congregation of 5 people whose hearts are well-knitted together, than to have 5 million if you don't know all of them by name. I will not name any churches here, but it's when the church is getting too large as a unit that the church projects will spiral into billions of cash, and the congregation will need to pay for it. They are not to be taken for granted!

Pro 27:23  Know your sheep by name; carefully attend to your flocks;
Pro 27:24  (Don't take them for granted; possessions don't last forever, you know.)

Pro 27:23  Be diligent to know the state of your flocks, and look well to your herds;
Pro 27:24  For riches are not forever; does a crown endure to all generations?

And that's why Jesus' heart was moved at the multitudes in Matthew 9:36, they were so many and he could not tend to them like a shepherd tends to sheep's peculiar needs, but he did what he could. That's not often the case today, as churches compete to get larger in size and nobody cares about the growing number of voiceless people in the congregation.

Eph 4:11 And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
Eph 4:12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church)

I believe it is very wrong to think of the work of pastors (or teachers, apostles, prophets or evangelists) as a job in itself. It is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

Eph 4:11 calls them GIFTS i.e. something acquired to cover a deficiency (or foster an advantage) without requiring reparation/compensation. Being a pastor is an advantage for the sake of the gospel, and not a career. It is not an advantage to cheat people of their money, however!

The Greek word used for GIFTS in Eph 4:8-12 is doma (δόμα), the same word that Jesus used in Luke 11:13

Luk 11:13 If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and continue to ask Him!

Once again, GIFTS foster an advantage. They are not the advantage in themselves.

When someone is given a gift, the giver expects that the receiver will appreciate the gift (there is no use giving gold necklaces to pigs, they won't tell the difference if it was made of tin). And that's why gifts are given for an advantage. It is a pity if the advantage is ignored!

The gifts are meant to be employed, the gifts are not the receiver's employer; the receiver is the employer of the gift. The pastor, for instance, is meant to employ his pastoral gift in the shepherding of his flock wherever he is.

Pro 18:16 A man's gift makes room for him and brings him before great men. [Gen. 32:20; I Sam. 25:27; Prov. 17:8; 21:14.]

1Pe 4:10 As each of you has received a gift (a particular spiritual talent, a gracious divine endowment), employ it for one another as [befits] good trustees of God's many-sided grace [faithful stewards of the extremely diverse powers and gifts granted to Christians by unmerited favor].
1Pe 4:11 Whoever speaks, [let him do it as one who utters] oracles of God; whoever renders service, [let him do it] as with the strength which God furnishes abundantly, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him be the glory and dominion forever and ever (through endless ages). Amen (so be it).

---

In summary, a pastor is not that guy who has made a weekly job of standing before a congregation and telling them what to do with their lives, although that may be a part of his job description. If a banker has the gift of a pastor, then the people he comes into contact with on a daily basis should see him as someone of integrity, a person that they can relate with on matters to do with God, and with seeking guidance, wisdom and truth; WHETHER they are Christians or not. His opinions are very valuable to people wherever he is.

Just because someone wields the gift of a pastor does not mean they should start a church!!!! In the very fact, if you must retire from your day-job and you are absolutely convinced by God's call to do so, listen carefully and he will tell you what to do. He may not always tell you to start a church, he may ask you to team up with an apostle and begin a free open library, an orphanage, a public shelter, a feeding-house, start a magazine, a TV station, whatever! THAT work is the work you are now doing for the ministry, and your pastoral gifts which you had all along will make the work move more smoothly for you.

And then of course, the moniker "pastor" e.g. Pastor H.I.V. Joseph is absolutely unnecessary. As I said initially, it's not an occupation.

@InesQOr:God bless u brother.

@Fhemmy:

Paul worked all through his life. Stop reading rhapsody and pick up your Bible. All these daily "milk" booklets are turning you people to idolatry. The Word of God is not for any private interpretation and when your "daddies" and "mummies" design a book, they are of neccessity "interpreting God's Word" as they deem fit.

@InesQor:

Pastor? Pastor ke? Nobody calls themselves Pastor nowadays. Thats an insult and is reserved for "smallies" who do not have Jeeps and congregations greater than 5, 000 strong. Titles of note today are "Apostle Syphilis Agbado", "Prophet Snake in the Monkey shadow", "Bishop Tithes Are Mine" etc.

We watch "the secret Millionaire" and see supposed Atheist millionaires go out and give literally tens of millions to people they do not know just to make a difference in their lives. That IMO, is ministering to people with money. You can do same with words of comfort, providing jobs, educating the poor etc. You show love when you give of yourself knowing they can NEVER repay (if they even ever meet you again).

No-one is saying pastors here do not support charity but they do so with other people's money and resources. So what are they giving of themselves seeing as they receive re-compense for all they do. Infact, its like they do 5 and get 5000 in return from poor people. When the congregation gave of their property (ananias and sapphira), the Bible does not tell us Peter bought lovely White horses and shining armor for himself and the other apostles, does it? Why not? Because they had a heart for God.

I wish one of the "full time pastors" would come out here and explain their own point of view to us.

Let's not assume to conclude. I don't think any of the above persons mentioned by the O.P had a full time secular job, as pastors are expected to have. Also, I don't think Paul the apostle really ministered as a 'pastor'. While laziness/indolence should not be encouraged, one also needs to be practically effective for the Work of the gospel to move forward. Talk is cheap anyway

If none of these, as you call them, above mentioned persons, had a full time secular job, why does the Bible inform us of their vocations outside of religiousity? And the Bible I read must be different from yours - Paul the Apostle did not minister as pastor? I thought a pastor was a shepherd - do you know how many children/churches/acolytes paul had?

I do not have any intention to ridicule todays pastors but are they above reproach? And do they have a scriptural justification to continue as is?

BTW, when the Bible talks of wolves in sheep clothing, leading God's children astray et al, please who are these? Are they not amongst us?

@ Fhemmy:ha ha,funny.

nuclearboy:

@Fhemmy:

Paul worked all through his life. Stop reading rhapsody and pick up your Bible. All these daily "milk" booklets are turning you people to idolatry. The Word of God is not for any private interpretation and when your "daddies" and "mummies" design a book, they are of neccessity "interpreting God's Word" as they deem fit.

@InesQor:

Pastor? Pastor ke? Nobody calls themselves Pastor nowadays. Thats an insult and is reserved for "smallies" who do not have Jeeps and congregations greater than 5, 000 strong. Titles of note today are "Apostle Syphilis Agbado", "Prophet Snake in the Monkey shadow", "Bishop Tithes Are Mine" etc.

We watch "the secret Millionaire" and see supposed Atheist millionaires go out and give literally tens of millions to people they do not know just to make a difference in their lives. That IMO, is ministering to people with money. You can do same with words of comfort, providing jobs, educating the poor etc. You show love when you give of yourself knowing they can NEVER repay (if they even ever meet you again).

No-one is saying pastors here do not support charity but they do so with other people's money and resources. So what are they giving of themselves seeing as they receive re-compense for all they do. Infact, its like they do 5 and get 5000 in return from poor people. When the congregation gave of their property (ananias and sapphira), the Bible does not tell us Peter bought lovely White horses and shining armor for himself and the other apostles, does it? Why not? Because they had a heart for God.

I wish one of the "full time pastors" would come out here and explain their own point of view to us.

As?

1 Corinthians 9
The Rights of an Apostle
1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas[a]? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?

  But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
15 But I have not used any of these rights.


  InesQor very nice post. But I will like you and Nuclearboy to do some justice to the above scripture. I believe there should be balance in all this. It may not be a "job" in the secular sense of the word, but the above scripture is clear God has intended some material blessing to go the way of those who tend the sheep. What say ye?

Nuclearboy
When I'm referring to pastors, I'm not referring everyone that carries a Bible and says God told him to go and start a church because he can preach. I believe the general idea/context is that it is a person who preaches in a particular building/location(possibly headquarters) every week to a particular set of people called members. Irrespective of their being real/false, Pastors Oyedepo, Kumuyi, Okonkwo, Okotie, Adeboye, Oyakhilome, Joshua and many more fall in this class as 'pastors'. I don't think Paul the apostle ministered this way, at least not as permanently as these examples.
Now, that some has a 'vocation' does not mandate it to be full time. The Bible doesn't say Jesus, or Paul, or Peter had full time secular jobs. There are pastors who have secular jobs, and some who don't, even in the same denomination. There are pastors employed full time in their churches, paid salary. Of course, one should be aware of wolves and lazy people, but the point is that there are cogent reasons why some pastors do not take up secular jobs. One can have a secular job in some local government and be more indolent and dependent than others.

Image123:

Nuclearboy
When I'm referring to pastors, I'm not referring everyone that carries a Bible and says God told him to go and start a church because he can preach. I believe the general idea/context is that it is a person who preaches in a particular building/location(possibly headquarters) every week to a particular set of people called members. Irrespective of their being real/false, Pastors Oyedepo, Kumuyi, Okonkwo, Okotie, Adeboye, Oyakhilome, Joshua and many more fall in this class as 'pastors'. I don't think Paul the apostle ministered this way, at least not as permanently as these examples.
Now, that some has a 'vocation' does not mandate it to be full time. The Bible doesn't say Jesus, or Paul, or Peter had full time secular jobs. There are pastors who have secular jobs, and some who don't, even in the same denomination. There are pastors employed full time in their churches, paid salary. Of course, one should be aware of wolves and lazy people, but the point is that there are cogent reasons why some pastors do not take up secular jobs. One can have a secular job in some local government and be more indolent and dependent than others.

Just like when you say a father, it does not mean a man that has a dick and can make babies, but one that will be there for the kids and look after them well

Fhemmy/Image123:

I am a christian and I know a pastor who used to be a bank branch manager in Ibadan. Suddenly he said He felt led to go to a "provincial area" where NEPA hadn't even got to and minister as a pastor there. Apparently they were very ritualistic etc. Guy left his official and personal cars, his bodija duplex and went into the bush with his family. THAT IS A FATHER in the context you speak of. Its 8 years and now he's doing fine. When I heard about him, I decided my resources would be available to him and till date, they are. His family lacks nothing because more people have come to know of his ways and i have seen him recieve a half million at a time. Funnily, I recently heard he got a vehicle from an admirer but sold it and gave the proceeds towards building a school laboratory for the people he lives with. The guy who gave him the car then bought another immediately which we together compelled him to keep. Would you by any chance imagine I am speaking of this type of pastor above?

Jesoul:

I get your point and it is very well made. However, the injunction remains that whist everything is lawful, not all is expedient. Such is how I understand Paul in his words above - and my first point is it was lawful to him but he realised it was not expedient and fled from the semblance of evil.

Secondly, do you really need 3 SUVs, a private jet, bi-annual family holidays in the bahamas, etc in the midst of the deprivation that is Nigeria's lot? You Jesoul, may have been away for too long - those of us here see the poverty in the populace and the anger in the youths. I was born in the North and they are angry: they have nothing to live for (as far as they are concerned and the proof of that is in how much they value life) plus we know that majority of our youth can perform only menial labor. They are so poor that they cannot afford to learn a trade like carpentry or masonry. I challenge anyone to show me where such exist as the standard today. These people can be helped to learn a trade or be schooled rather than being idle and thus providing a workshop for satan. You drive past and feel the malevolence.

I sincerely cannot understand how comfortable people can live in the midst of so much resentment which could so easily be helped by a fraction of what goes into cars for our "big-men". I left the north and swore never to go back because I was always scared.

Maybe I over-react when I post like this but try to look past the facade and ask; do we really need this level of luxury? To build schools too expensive for our congregation and then we do not even send our own children there but to foreign schools?   Look at the example I gave above of a pastor and compare to what obtains.

I fear for our future because the gutter is coming into the streets. Please read an article I saw way back http://aderinola./2007/06/30/is-lagos-the-most-dangerous-city-in-the-world/ with particular note to the first two responses to the article then give a moral justification  for this rot in the house of God

nuclearboy:

Fhemmy/Image123:

[b]I am a christian and I know a pastor who used to be a bank branch manager in Ibadan. Suddenly he said He felt led to go to a "provincial area" where NEPA hadn't even got to and minister as a pastor there. Apparently they were very ritualistic etc. Guy left his official and personal cars, his bodija duplex and went into the bush with his family. THAT IS A FATHER in the context you speak of. Its 8 years and now he's doing fine. When I heard about him, I decided my resources would be available to him and till date, they are. His family lacks nothing because more people have come to know of his ways and i have seen him recieve a half million at a time. Funnily, I recently heard he got a vehicle from an admirer but sold it and gave the proceeds towards building a school laboratory for the people he lives with. The guy who gave him the car then bought another immediately which we together compelled him to keep. Would you by any chance imagine I am speaking of this type of pastor above? [/b]

Jesoul:

I get your point and it is very well made. However, the injunction remains that whist everything is lawful, not all is expedient. Such is how I understand Paul in his words above - and my first point is it was lawful to him but he realised it was not expedient and fled from the semblance of evil.

Secondly, do you really need 3 SUVs, a private jet, bi-annual family holidays in the bahamas, etc in the midst of the deprivation that is Nigeria's lot? You Jesoul, may have been away for too long - those of us here see the poverty in the populace and the anger in the youths. I was born in the North and they are angry: they have nothing to live for (as far as they are concerned and the proof of that is in how much they value life) plus we know that majority of our youth can perform only menial labor. They are so poor that they cannot afford to learn a trade like carpentry or masonry. I challenge anyone to show me where such exist as the standard today. These people can be helped to learn a trade or be schooled rather than being idle and thus providing a workshop for satan. You drive past and feel the malevolence.

I sincerely cannot understand how comfortable people can live in the midst of so much resentment which could so easily be helped by a fraction of what goes into cars for our "big-men". I left the north and swore never to go back because I was always scared.

Maybe I over-react when I post like this but try to look past the facade and ask; do we really need this level of luxury? To build schools too expensive for our congregation and then we do not even send our own children there but to foreign schools?   Look at the example I gave above of a pastor and compare to what obtains.

I fear for our future because the gutter is coming into the streets. Please read an article I saw way back http://aderinola./2007/06/30/is-lagos-the-most-dangerous-city-in-the-world/ with particular note to the first two responses to the article then give a moral justification  for this rot in the house of God

Just cos that was what he heard he had to go and do does not mean everyone is all same.
there are good, bad and the ugly in every situation

nuclearboy:

@David:

[1] Any succint Biblical support for this point of view? BTW, you're preaching to the choir but it'd be nice if viewers have biblical references to show the truth.

[2] Any suggestions on how to educate Christians on the truth?

InesQor:

where are you?

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Its interesting to see how the apostles dealt with offerings in the early church. I'm sure Peter, James and co could simply have appropriated all the land to erect impressive churches in Jerusalem, i'm sure they could have utilised some of this money to buy faster chariots to "spread the gospel" with convenience . . . but they CHOSE to use the money to the benefit of everyone in need. Verse 34 is quite poignant . . . there was NOT ONE among them that lacked . . . can we say the same of todays "church"? Why is it that so many lack when there are some who have plenty and over in abundance? why should a pastor own a jet when there are some in the household of faith with no food to eat?

nuclearboy:

Fhemmy/Image123:

I am a christian and I know a pastor who used to be a bank branch manager in Ibadan. Suddenly he said He felt led to go to a "provincial area" where NEPA hadn't even got to and minister as a pastor there. Apparently they were very ritualistic etc. Guy left his official and personal cars, his bodija duplex and went into the bush with his family. THAT IS A FATHER in the context you speak of. Its 8 years and now he's doing fine. When I heard about him, I decided my resources would be available to him and till date, they are. His family lacks nothing because more people have come to know of his ways and i have seen him recieve a half million at a time. Funnily, I recently heard he got a vehicle from an admirer but sold it and gave the proceeds towards building a school laboratory for the people he lives with. The guy who gave him the car then bought another immediately which we together compelled him to keep. Would you by any chance imagine I am speaking of this type of pastor above?

  Wow. Just . . . wow.

Jesoul:

I get your point and it is very well made. However, the injunction remains that whist everything is lawful, not all is expedient. Such is how I understand Paul in his words above - and my first point is it was lawful to him but he realised it was not expedient and fled from the semblance of evil.

Very very true. And I think the situation varies (for true pastors that is). What may not be profitable in one case may be in another. But the most noble of positions would be the one Paul selflessly assumed.

Secondly, do you really need 3 SUVs, a private jet, bi-annual family holidays in the bahamas, etc in the midst of the deprivation that is Nigeria's lot? You Jesoul, may have been away for too long - those of us here see the poverty in the populace and the anger in the youths. I was born in the North and they are angry: they have nothing to live for (as far as they are concerned and the proof of that is in how much they value life) plus we know that majority of our youth can perform only menial labor. They are so poor that they cannot afford to learn a trade like carpentry or masonry. I challenge anyone to show me where such exist as the standard today. These people can be helped to learn a trade or be schooled rather than being idle and thus providing a workshop for satan. You drive past and feel the malevolence.
  I sincerely cannot understand how comfortable people can live in the midst of so much resentment which could so easily be helped by a fraction of what goes into cars for our "big-men". I left the north and swore never to go back because I was always scared.

Maybe I over-react when I post like this but try to look past the facade and ask; do we really need this level of luxury? To build schools too expensive for our congregation and then we do not even send our own children there but to foreign schools?  Look at the example I gave above of a pastor and compare to what obtains.

  Nuclear, you are not overreacting at all. If true christians didn't react this way then something is seriously wrong. And believe you me, I share your disdain for the current climate of corruption in Naija churches. I have been gone a bit, which is why I will always defer to the superior informed knowledge and opinion of those on ground zero.

  This doesn't happen only in Naija self. See the lavish lifestyles of the likes of Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar etc A friend of mine attended a Benny Hinn crusade a while back. She had tried to get me to come along but I cannot be caught dead in such gatherings. She came back saying how the entire thing was about money, donate this, contribute that, bless this, sow that. They said even the very hall they were using hadn't been paid for and people needed to donate to cover those costs 

I fear for our future because the gutter is coming into the streets. Please read an article I saw way back http://aderinola./2007/06/30/is-lagos-the-most-dangerous-city-in-the-world/ with particular note to the first two responses to the article then give a moral justification  for this rot in the house of God

I will check it out . . .

While you raise valid points there are some loopholes in your thesis. Granted that at one time Jesus worked as a carpenter and Peter was a fisherman, the question is did they always continue in these professions? I believe the scriptures show that was not the case. Jesus was itinerant, needing financial support from others.

Luke 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Matt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Mat 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

I am not making the argument that justifies the rapacious plundering of the flock by ravening wolves that goes on today. But the scriptures indicate that God has graciously provided that provision will be available to those involved in propagating the gospel

Mat 10:7-10 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

1Tim 5:17-18 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Indeed as J. Hudson Taylor says: God's work done in God's way never lacks God's resources.

But the abuses we see today is because of the fact that "many are called, few are chosen". And there be those who have fallen into the error of Balaam and think that the gospel is a means of acquiring wealth.

. . .people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

Paul in laying down the principles for church administration is quite clear on the requisite qualifications.

1 Tim 3:1-3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

^^^ My esteemed Bro,

Been awhile I read anything from you and as always, you bring reason.

However, if you read my original post again, I did admit that YOUR argument could be mooted THAT Jesus and Peter stopped their "worldly" vocations at the crux of ministry. I honestly in my understanding attribute this to the "desperation" involved in those ministries - Jesus KNEW He had just three years and the Apostles lived each day as though it was their last. Looking at the society in which they lived and with benefit of hindsight, I believe they were right to assume each sunrise likely to be their last.

Please compare to the 20th century ministers who started in the 40s and passed on the empires to their children in the 90s. Todays "apostles" plan and build universities - how long does the approval process take before construction starts, recruitment etc. Where do you find Paul buying land to build a home for himself talkless a university and the plan to leave it all to "Junior". where's the desperation today aside of in the desire to drive the latest car (that being "proof" the Lord is good), travel at will and get oodles of cash for being a guest minister. We even hear some are paid 7 figure sums BEFORE they minister or else, they stand you up.

My intention for this thread seems misunderstood as everyone aside David and InesQor kinda "initially" believe this is personality bashing. ITS NOT. I'm just worried at the trend and wondering how these people get so many acolytes. Imagine the thread where someone said Pastor Chris had revelation knowledge that was not available to the Apostles and that Stephen died due to such arrant blah blah poo. Don't people read the Bible any longer? Please lets remember that the wolves in sheep's clothing amogst God's flocks are amongst us. If ministers are not to be assessed, then indeed we are saying God didn't know what He was saying when He warned us of such. Abi e never reach time wey wolves go come? Is that it?

^^^My dear brother,
I agree with what you 've written. I raised those points so that you wouldn't be taken unawares when the WoF crowd comes. I think that the time of the apostles was sort of "transitional", thus accounting for some differences from how an established church would be run. Looking at the epistles to Timothy and Titus, where Paul lays down instructions on how the church should be administered seems to suggest nothing of the sort that we see today, where one person is the capo di tutti capi aka the G.O or what have you. But rather it would seem that the church is meant to be run by a plurality of elders (an episcopate), all being held accountable for doctrine and action. I do not think the position of elder is meant to be a full time paying job. Indeed looking at the book of Acts shows the simplicity of the fellowship. "They gathered to break bread", at regular set intervals. For the rest of the week, I am believe they went about their business.
Having said this, there will still be those called to full time ministry like evangelists and missionaries but even then some can still work for a living. (I know an American Missionary, who for the nearly 20 years he and his family spent in Jos, worked for a salary, while still doing the work of a missionary)

P.S. Is there a thread addressing the question of whether true apostles exist today or not?

aletheia:

P.S. Is there a thread addressing the question of whether true apostles exist today or not?

Please start off a thread to discuss that. BTW, I'd like to see your personal definition of what an apostle is with ideas of background, family life etc. I think it'd be nice to discuss God, Jesus, the HS, Biblical concepts of Christianity and social life rather than what the latest craze is amongst MOGs and who's building another monument to Baal and calling Baal God.

BTW, if I am on the side of God, I have no fear of WOFers showing up. I don't know how one can stand against God's Word drawing on the power of a rhapsody or daily guide

All this na wasted talk talk, no action. . . . Where is God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit to checkmate these basterds like Oyedepo and Adeboye? Does he not care about the millions led to hell and suffered by these charlatans?

Apparently Ananaias and his wife were killed by God for witholding part of their offering BUT these men steal from millions of poor people, collude with politicians to ridicule the masses, twist the word of God and tell outright lies against God and the Holy Spirit YET they're growing fatter everyday and I still see their thieving faces around.

Tell me, when will God kill Oyedepo, Adeboye and Oyakhilome so that the body of christ can be saved and millions delivered from 'hell'?

I'll tell you when. . . . NEVER! Because either God does not exist or God dont give a shhite. I'd go for the former and every wise man would too.

@Tudor
Where 've you been? Welcome

aletheia:

@Tudor
Where 've you been? Welcome

Bro, you beat me to it. W E L C O M E Tudor!

There is a problem here. There is such a thing as voluntary bondage and that is the issue here. If people read, think and act for themselves rather than following others based on hope, the problem we're discussing wouldn't exist. These people believe a prayer by another is the "magic" required in their lives and so keep waiting for the day his anointing is "directed to them". They create the monster themselves.

God has no blame in this as His word point-blank already lets us know "people die for lack of knowledge" and "seek ye out the book of the Lord, read and understand", "for therein is life". I believe part of His integrity is in allowing us make choices which WE PAY FOR. You for example; are you a victim of such MOGs as we call them? Why? BECAUSE you freed yourself. Did God come down to free you? Rather Sir, you used your reason which is the same all have. But just as you used yours, they also reserve the right not to use theirs and the fault cannot be attributed to God!

A lazy unbelieving man wants a miracle for breakfast. A serious person IS A miracle and produces results knowing God is already in support of right which is built by hard-work rather than "magical occurences". All what we are doing here is trying to prick that thing in the minds of people which could set them off on the path to using what you have used.

aletheia:

@Tudor
Where 've you been? Welcome

nuclearboy:

Bro, you beat me to it. W E L C O M E Tudor!

Aye, true friends! Thy welcome is a soothing balm unto my heart.

I've been really busy for some time and decided to pop in today just to have fun with my free time only to be systematically terrorised by a wanna be tyrant.

Either way, thanks for your hearty welcome.

There is a problem here. There is such a thing as voluntary bondage and that is the issue here. If people read, think and act for themselves rather than following others based on hope, the problem we're discussing wouldn't exist. These people believe a prayer by another is the "magic" required in their lives and so keep waiting for the day his anointing is "directed to them". They create the monster themselves.

God has no blame in this as His word point-blank already lets us know "people die for lack of knowledge" and "seek ye out the book of the Lord, read and understand", "for therein is life". I believe part of His integrity is in allowing us make choices which WE PAY FOR. You for example; are you a victim of such MOGs as we call them? Why? BECAUSE you freed yourself. Did God come down to free you? Rather Sir, you used your reason which is the same all have. But just as you used yours, they also reserve the right not to use theirs and the fault cannot be attributed to God!

A lazy unbelieving man wants a miracle for breakfast. A serious person IS A miracle and produces results knowing God is already in support of right which is built by hard-work rather than "magical occurences". All what we are doing here is trying to prick that thing in the minds of people which could set them off on the path to using what you have used.

Honestly, I think you're working under the assumption that we're all intelligent.

This is so far from the truth. I remember in school when I wanted to get out from a boring fasting and prayer session i joined a remedial advanced chem class even when i didnt offer the course.

I succintly remember the prof ranting and raving about neutrons, electrons, rules, laws,principles this and that even went ahead to clearly outline everything. I was even thinking if my elect elect lecturer was this thorough my life woulda been easier. Do u know that after that class, the man gave a very simple test and even I who didnt give a crap and was barely listening got 60% while some people still failed woefully. Much as I tried to figure out how this individuals failed this test i could not.

Have you ever heard where one is so dumb that they fail a survey? There're actually people like that.

You seem to think we out to figure this stuffs out for ourselves but truth is we are not born with reason and 'tought process'. We learn it. We are a product of what we're taught and it takes the bravery of a select few to challenge present knowledge and help shape our understanding. Majority of humanity are learners only a small percentage are searchers.

These individuals have been presented and taught the wrong version of the scriptures. Most were even converted to christianity by these charlatans others became born-again theough them. Now a few exceptionally savy ones might go out and question them but the unfortunate truth is most wont or just cant.

The whole world thought the earth was flat even though the evidences abound that its not. It took the crusade of an intelligent man to point it out. Even at that some individuals still dont genuinely understand why the earth cant be flat.

They think according to what they are taught and even if you open the scriptures they only see what the MOG taught them. And yea you might say, why dont they ask the holy spirit but fact is they prolly dont understand the principles of the holy spirit in the first place or have been taught a flawed idea of the H.spirit.

The same way you look at them and cannot phantom how they choose to remain ignorant is the same way they honestly look at you and fail to understand why u cannot see the 'light'.

A number of them might be the greedy and selfish ones who at all cost wanna take god as their sugar-daddy and ATM but there's no denying there are others just out to serve God and are attracted by such tales as the ones of chris and Adeboye who claim to be so close to God that they eat tea and bread with him. Is that such a bad thing?

Now a God who created the dimwits ought to protect them from the wolves like oyedepo innit? Of what use is a shepherd if he cannot protect his young or naive sheep from wolves dressed as sheeps?

Tudór:

Aye, true friends! Thy welcome is a soothing balm unto my heart.

I've been really busy for some time and decided to pop in today just to have fun with my free time only to be systematically terrorised by a wanna be tyrant.

Either way, thanks for your hearty welcome.Honestly, I think you're working under the assumption that we're all intelligent.

This is so far from the truth. I remember in school when I wanted to get out from a boring fasting and prayer session i joined a remedial advanced chem class even when i didnt offer the course.

I succintly remember the prof ranting and raving about neutrons, electrons, rules, laws,principles this and that even went ahead to clearly outline everything. I was even thinking if my elect elect lecturer was this thorough my life woulda been easier. Do u know that after that class, the man gave a very simple test and even I who didnt give a crap and was barely listening got 60% while some people still failed woefully. Much as I tried to figure out how this individuals failed this test i could not.

Have you ever heard where one is so dumb that they fail a survey? There're actually people like that.

You seem to think we out to figure this stuffs out for ourselves but truth is we are not born with reason and 'tought process'. We learn it. We are a product of what we're taught and it takes the bravery of a select few to challenge present knowledge and help shape our understanding. Majority of humanity are learners only a small percentage are searchers.

These individuals have been presented and taught the wrong version of the scriptures. Most were even converted to christianity by these charlatans others became born-again theough them. Now a few exceptionally savy ones might go out and question them but the unfortunate truth is most wont or just cant.

The whole world thought the earth was flat even though the evidences abound that its not. It took the crusade of an intelligent man to point it out. Even at that some individuals still dont genuinely understand why the earth cant be flat.

They think according to what they are taught and even if you open the scriptures they only see what the MOG taught them. And yea you might say, why dont they ask the holy spirit but fact is they prolly dont understand the principles of the holy spirit in the first place or have been taught a flawed idea of the H.spirit.

The same way you look at them and cannot phantom how they choose to remain ignorant is the same way they honestly look at you and fail to understand why u cannot see the 'light'.

A number of them might be the greedy and selfish ones who at all cost wanna take god as their sugar-daddy and ATM but there's no denying there are others just out to serve God and are attracted by such tales as the ones of chris and Adeboye who claim to be so close to God that they eat tea and bread with him. Is that such a bad thing?

Now a God who created the dimwits ought to protect them from the wolves like oyedepo innit? Of what use is a shepherd if he cannot protect his young or naive sheep from wolves dressed as sheeps?

Same God gave His own people what we call freewill

Fhemmmy:

Same God gave His own people what we call freewill

oga fhemmy surely before one even gets to the realm of freewill, he oe she would have to understand in the first place what his/her choices are, is it not?

Tudór:

oga fhemmy surely before one even gets to the realm of freewill, he oe she would have to understand in the first place what his/her choices are, is it not?

Yes it is and that is why He said, i have put life and death ahead of you, chose one . . . He even advice that we chose life, so that we may live

@ Tudor:

Jesoul is not a tyrant. Responsibility brings one to choices that may break the heart to make but must be made. None of us is perfect and I notice that once most anyone becomes a MOD, tyranny becomes a regular complaint. They're human.

Meanwhile, God defines Himself as "I am that I am". Then He provided guidance. Then He made life to work in a manner that reality leads us to truth. Then He sends people who ought be Shepherds. But when the flock decides they want to eat in Lion territory and the supposed shepherd considers himself a paid (men, these guy get PAID) hand rather than "trustee" of the sheep's welfare, what obtains today becomes the case.

You are right that not all of us are intelligent. But that is by choice rather than design. A banker, engineer, any university or for that matter, high school graduate went to school for 2 things as far as I'm concerned :English and Maths OR RATHER communication and Logical reasoning. If the person refuses to apply these, its his choice, not God's fault. Imagine the dog that decides to hang out in a lion's den - does it exist? I think not as dogs are sharper than that. OR a rat going into a Cobra's den? No way! So why is it then humans that drop their right and capability to think and we blame God for it.

Fhemmy has said it all: life and death, the choice is ours to make individually and finding understanding is our task!