I came across this entry of March 4, 2010 in Rhapsody of Realities.

[center]Have The Faith Of God![/center]

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God (Mark 11:22)

When Jesus said in Mark 11:22 “Have faith in God,” the literal connotation of the expression is: “Have the faith of God.” or “Have the God-kind of faith; the supernatural faith that God applies. This implies that you can apply the same principles as God did throughout the scriptures and be guaranteed the same results.

For example, when God told Abraham, “I have made thee a father of many nations” (Romans 4:17), he was about a hundred years old at the time, and Sarah his wife, who was already ninety years old, apart from being barren had also reached menopause. Hence it wasn’t naturally possible for them to bear children. Yet, God told Abraham, “a father of many nations have I made thee” (Genesis 17:5), and called Sarah “mother of nations” (Genesis 17:16).

This was the faith of God in operation; it calls things that be not as though they were (Romans 4:17). And true to God’s Word, the Bible says “…Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him” (Genesis 21:2).

You’ve been called to operate the God-kind of faith. You too can call things that be not as though they were! Through your faith-proclamations you can call forth your desires and bring into existence your favourable expectations, based on the Word of God.

Remember, as He is, so are we in this world (1 John 4:17); we can function like God; we can emulate His faith and have His kind of results.

My questions are:
1. Do these scriptures support the view that God operates by faith?
2. Is faith then a force that we can tap into for results, just as God does?

hmm . . . Rhapsody people.

-If God needed faith to create the world, who did He place this faith in? or what did He place His faith on? since there is no one greater 

-Furthermore, faith is scripturally defined as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Does God "hope"? or does He declare and it comes to pass? is there anything God does not see? that He has to envision them somehow happening in the future? or did He infact create all things? and knows the past, present and future? and even works all things together to bring about His will and purpose?

The notion that God has faith or operates Himself by faith . . . simply ridiculous. Faith in what? in who? He is God!

aletheia:

I came across this entry of March 4, 2010 in Rhapsody of Realities.

My questions are:
1. Do these scriptures support the view that God operates by faith?

   Yes they support them indeed. Once they've been twisted and forced into the pre-existing idea.

2. Is faith then a force that we can tap into for results, just as God does?

Lol, if there is a huge faith reserve somewhere that even God Himself needs to tap into in order to bring about anything, surely the bible would clearly mention it?

btw Aletheia I know these are not your views

I don't think there's anything wrong with the scriptures quoted. Hebrews 11v3 says God created the world through faith. The passages quoted above also imply the same. I don't think we should say it is wrong simply because so and so is the one saying it.

Image123:

I don't think there's anything wrong with the scriptures quoted. Hebrews 11v3 says God created the world through faith. The passages quoted above also imply the same. I don't think we should say it is wrong simply because so and so is the one saying it.

No my brother, that is not what it says.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

  It is saying, we have no proof God created the universe, but by Faith we understand and believe that it was created by God. Furthermore, it says "created at God's[b] command[/b]" - not created "by God's faith".

Sometimes, i wonder where the people get all these ideas from.

JeSoul
I'll not go into that verse, but at least we'll agree that faith is the evidence of things not seen, substance of things hoped for. I believe God demonstrates and demonstrated this things. The evidence of things not seen, He manifested it calling those things that are not as though they are. I think that is faith. Jesus demonstrated faith and expects us to do same. Well?

Image, thanks for your reponse.

Image123:

JeSoul
I'll not go into that verse,

Please do. If I am wrong, I will like to be shown where and I'm sure others watching/reading would like to know also.

but at least we'll agree that faith is the evidence of things not seen, substance of things hoped for.

  Yes - for us, human beings - not God.

I believe God demonstrates and demonstrated this things.

  How so? when was God ever shown or even hinted to have "hoped" for anything? or to have not seen anything? or not known anything? Isn't God by definition all-knowing, all-powerful and all-present? Insinuating that He has ever had the need to have faith is to suggest that He is deficient and lacking in absolute authority to carry out any action at any time as He wishes  - that He[b] depends [/b] on faith (in who or what is another question) to accomplish His purpose?

  God puts His faith in what Image? in who? on what does God depend on? or is He simply God?

  And if there is no one greater, how can He have faith in Himself? that's an oxymoron. Why would He need to have faith in Himself? Don't you see the gross contradiction?

The evidence of things not seen, He manifested it calling those things that are not as though they are. I think that is faith. Jesus demonstrated faith and expects us to do same. Well?

My dear it's not enough for us to "think" but to able to back up our thinking with scripture. Also can you please post the verses/places where Jesus demonstrated faith so we can go through those as well? Thanks.

@image123:

Kai, stop that rubbish before I send a dog after you!   Jesus MADE HIMSELF an example for us, NOT designed faith like you people do. Do you realise that Jesus followed God's Will whist here? That was trusting in God (based on total knowledge anyway) not "tapping faith" as you call it where you try to manipulate God into your mold. Witches and Wizards all of you, placing yourself in the place where you judge, decide and manipulate for self-gain even when you don't know what tonight will bring!

We (humans, me and you) need faith to get blessings that God created! He creates, we believe. How dare you people say God uses faith? faith in what? Your jerry curls or anointing oil?

Anyway, why do we even bother? Prior to now, I just wondered at the attitude of CEC people. Today I finally accept what has been bandied about concerning you - you are truly apostates, claiming that God is on the same level with you. No wonder people ridicule Christianity.

Imagine someone thinking of God on the same level with a guy with his hair jerry-curled, speaking fake "oyinbo-nglish", planning staged miracles and only full of hot vapid talk that creates cash into his and selected pockets rather than enriching human lives.

JeSoul:


-Furthermore, faith is scripturally defined as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Does God "hope"? . . .

I can think of a verse that on face value seems to suggest that.

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Faith is a high-power jet pack used to leap over spiritual obstacles and their physical manifestations, subject to God's pre-approval. God does not need faith to overcome obstacles, neither is He limited by any pre-requisite approval.

@Aletheia: I beg to disagree. I believe "in hope that" in that verse can be effectively rendered "to the end that". i.e. "so that".

^ hehe nice. Looks like you are very familiar with WOF tactics  

Face value for real. Rom 8:20 - Is it saying God "hopes" in the sense of "having[b] faith [/b] something 'out of His control' will come to pass"? or is it saying that in the fallen state of creation, God gave us an out, and in that - hopes* that we will take it? or in short that He gave us hope and wants us to accept it?

Lol!A creator needs to have faith in HIM/HER/ITSELF and the possessed creative abilities to be able to create anything, and that includes GOD.This one is not rocket science.

Coming to the level of us humans, any individual that possesses high creative capabilities but lacks any faith in himself or herself and is always looking for some external figure to do the creational acts for him or her is not going to do much creating of anything.

Since GOD is the alpha and the omega - meaning that it is the only thing in existence,meaning that it is all alone - it is forced to have faith in itself to carry out the creational acts.

nuclearboy:


Imagine someone thinking of God on the same level with a guy . . .

I am sorry sir, but i cannot see how this is different from you equating your Jewish Rabbi to Almighty God.

Wow, where do I start, i didn't ask for a barrage of attacks. Well, lets see how much I can reply, I'm on a phone. But I believe Jesus used faith. The fact that God was well pleased with Him suggests that, because without faith it is impossible to please God. And if Jesus walked by faith, He is God. God has faith. I didn't say God hoped in Hebrews 11. Faith is the substance of hope, not hope. I'll rather relate faith with trust than with hope. Most definitely, God trusts. He trusts His children.in other words He has faith in them. Jesus had faith in to commit His spirit to God at calvary.
Hebrews 11v3 could apply both ways,but like I said, pls spare me the commentaries at least for now.

InesQor:

Faith is a high-power jet pack used to leap over spiritual obstacles and their physical manifestations, subject to God's pre-approval. God does not need faith to overcome obstacles, neither is He limited by any pre-requisite approval.

@Aletheia: I beg to disagree. I believe "in hope that" in that verse can be effectively rendered "to the end that". i.e. "so that".

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

- Does not sound like a statement of faith.

First a note on the "Rhapsody of Realities" thing. As can be expected, it is full of crap: take the one posted yesterday by mabell telling the reader how to increase their vocabulary when speaking in "tongues". Sheer nonsense! I did not post on the thread on which it was posted simply out of respect as the thread is meant to be devotional.

To the point on having the faith of God and God having faith, the first thing I'd like to say is that while Oyakhilome may be fooling his followers that this is some new "revelation" he is basically reproducing what people like Copeland and Hagin have said and have been saying for years; I notice that the wording used is very similar to Hagin/Copeland. In fact when next I'm in Naija I plan to buy a couple of Oyakhilome's books and peruse them for possible plagiarism --- a very common thing in WoF circles going as far back as "Dad" Hagin plagiarising Kenyon etc all over the place.

The more clever defenders of the nonsense will say that the original of Mark 11:22 did not have a preposition (whether the preposition be "in" or "of"; they will then argue that the KJV, for example, added the word "in" to get 'Have faith [in] God"; they will then argue further as Oyaks (possibly plagiarising Hagin/Copeland) does that it is not only legitimate but more accurate to insert "of" instead of "in" to get 'Have faith [of] God" --- although they then add an extra word "the" to get "Have [the] faith [of] God".

Needless to say that I much prefer the KJV rendering to the WoF rendering. I see the WoF rendering as a devious way of justifying their heresy of equating man with God; ---- such that man operates with "faith" to make things happen on the basis of the false claim that even the WoF "god" only operates by faith. Well, the WoF "god" may operate by faith, the Almighty God operates on the basis of His sovereignty and omnipotence!

@Image123
There are several loopholes in your post. Let's see. . .

Image123:

Wow, where do I start, i didn't ask for a barrage of attacks. Well, lets see how much I can reply, I'm on a phone. But I believe Jesus used faith.

What scripture supports this assertion of yours. In Mark 2:5;

Mar 2:5  And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Did Jesus forgive the paralytic by his (Jesus') faith?

Image123:

The fact that God was well pleased with Him suggests that, because without faith it is impossible to please God.

Perhaps if Jesus was solely a man like you and I but looking at the scripture in context:

Heb 11:5-6  By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

So as you will see from chapter 11 of Hebrews, it talks about men and women pleasing God. See also:

Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Image123:

And if Jesus walked by faith, He is God. God has faith. I didn't say God hoped in Hebrews 11. Faith is the substance of hope, not hope.

Lets break down your syllogism into its component propositions.
1. Jesus walked by faith.
2. Jesus is God.
3. Therefore God has faith.

Since you and I agree that Jesus is God, your argument stands or falls on the premise that Jesus walked by faith. You have not proven that from the bible yet!

Image123:

I'll rather relate faith with trust than with hope. Most definitely, God trusts. He trusts His children.in other words He has faith in them. Jesus had faith in to commit His spirit to God at calvary.
Hebrews 11v3 could apply both ways,but like I said, pls spare me the commentaries at least for now.

God has faith in the sons of Adam? Really, how about this here:

John 2:23-25  Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Now you are playing the game of redefining the meaning of words. What is the meaning of the word translated faith?

Strong's

G4102 πίστις (pistis)
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Thayer's

G4102 πίστις  (pistis)
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on

No wonder you were so quick to declaim that you be spared commentaries: what a cop out.

Deep Sight:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

- Does not sound like a statement of faith.

Actually the opening lines of Psalm 22. Perhaps you should read it.

Enigma:


I see the WoF rendering as a devious way of justifying their heresy of equating man with God

You do not commit an equal heresy when you equate a carpenter from Nazareth with God?

Double-speak.

aletheia:

Actually the opening lines of Psalm 22. Perhaps you should read it.

Yes, so what? Quoting that psalm at that time was indicative of what?

Feelings of despair or abandonement?

Is that faith?

@Image123:

Do you realise Jesus was absolutely Holy and NEVER sinned? To you, it is not that fact that matters but faith, abi? Then you say He commited His Spirit to God. Who would Jesus have commited His Spirit to if not God? Pastor Chris?  

What trust does God have in you? Does that trust include knowledge of what you will do? If yes, then that is not faith since faith is "things not yet seen" but you have just agreed God has "seen".

If you say God's trust in you does not include knowledge, then your god is Chris Oyaks because the Almighty definitely knows the future! It is Oyaks that has not seen the future!

You don't want commentaries but you make comments   This WOF people na wonder!

^^^ The man, Jesus from Nazareth, born circa 2010 years ago in Bethlehem, occupation Carpentry and Spiritual Teacher -

- - - - never sinned? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Kai, it will take a long time - perhaps many lifetimes for some of you folks to recognise the extent to which you have been deceived.

What's amazing is that you buy the whole gist.

Amazing!

What makes you guys different from ancestor-worshippers? ? ?

How are you better than the WoF guys since you too equate a man with God? ? ?

Deep Sight:

Yes, so what? Quoting that psalm at that time was indicative of what?

Feelings of despair or abandonement?

Is that faith?

Don't be too hasty. Have you read it? First read it and then come back at me with your questions.

If you followed my talk with JeSoul, you'll have noticed that we're saying somethings about Hebrews 11v3 of which I told her that I'll not say much on that verse, then I 're.told' her to spare/permit me from making further comments on the said verse. That's what I meant by spare me the commentaries, not some assumed phobia for strong's dictionary and co.
@Enigma
On equating man with God, I'm yet to do that. Look before you leap. Saying God has faith and man has faith doesn't on compulsion equate man with God. There are attributes which God has which man should have, it's called godliness. e.g God has love, His children should have love. This doesn't make them equal.

@Nuclearboy
Settle down and look before you leap. I don't get what you're on about, affirming things I never thought not to speak of type about. Jesus was holy and NEVER sinned. Breaking news. I never disputed that.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Faith IS NOT 'things not yet seen'. Get a grip. I believe have read more composed posts from you. I'm aware the wof movement have not being kind to you, but don't take it out on the innocent please.

@aletheia
On this same page/thread, I said that I think, someone replied that I shouldn't think. Now I said that I believe, and then you call it an assertion. very well then.
Still I'll maintain that Jesus used faith. I didn't quote Mark 2:5 why bring that up?
Hebrews 11v6 says without faith it is impossible to please God. Aletheia revised version says without faith it is impossible for men and women to please God. I salute o! Are you of the wou(Word of Unbelief) movement?
Matthew 3v17 says This is my beloved Son, in whom I am WELL PLEASED.
Hebrews 11v6 says WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him. It takes more unbelief than faith to contradict those scriptures. Have you not read that the scriptures cannot be broken? Jesus cannot please God without faith.
Now I said God trusts/has faith in His children, I didn't say God trusts the sons of Adam. Is some mischievous demon changing my posts on your computer screens? God trusted Abraham e.g Genesis 18v19. God trusted Moses e.g Numbers 12v7. Faith is reliance, belief, conviction of truth. You just quoted that from Strong and Thayer. What more can I say.

Image123:

@Enigma
On equating man with God, I'm yet to do that. Look before you leap. Saying God has faith and man has faith doesn't on compulsion equate man with God. There are attributes which God has which man should have, it's called godliness. e.g God has love, His children should have love. This doesn't make them equal.

What's the matter with you? I made a general post based on the OP without even reading your post, man! I suppose my point affects you because you subscribe to the same nonsense as Oyakhilome/Copeland/Hagin. Well, that is not my problem.

Going back to Oyaks - he says:

. . . . “Have the God-kind of faith; the supernatural faith that God applies. This implies that you can apply the same principles as God did throughout the scriptures and be guaranteed the same results.

Is that not equating man with the WoF god?

@OP

I think u are mixing the message with the messenger. True CE are used to heresy. . . . .but there is an element of TRUTH in their argument.

1. There is something called the "faith of God". Paul describes it as the faith that speaks the things which be not as though they were.
The faith of God is uniquely uncommon that it only speaks things that have no precedence.
a. When God said let the sun rule by day and the moon rule by night. . . .these event had no precedent. nothing had ever ruled by day or night. but for thousands of years after that statement was made . . . the sun and moon still rule.
b. God told two naked adults in a garden to "be fruitful and multiply" . . . , billions of people are today the descendants of these two adults.
c. God told an aged Abraham and Sarah that they would have a son. . . .defying the tradition of old age, they did have a son.

2. while Faith is defined as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It is as such important that our faith must have a subject. If God has faith. . . .who does He have faith in?
Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it
Isaiah 48:3
3 I foretold the former things long ago,
my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass

God's faith is expressed and established in Himself. God prophecies on to the things He would do in the future . . .and also brings them to pass. God has a unique faith . . . .God does not necessarily hope but He foretells the things He would do (faith) and brings them to pass (by power).

3. Jesus said that if we have the faith of a mustard seed we would ask that a mountain moves and it will. This is however not a license to ask for anything. And also that statement connotes that the mustard seed faith is perhaps the least measure of faith.
My submission is that while Christians are to grow to live by faith as Abraham and the faith-fathers did . . . . .submitting to the will of God like Jesus did is a far better deal, . . . .but u first need to learn how to trust God.

4. There is a huge difference btw faith and trust. Jesus IMO taught us how to trust God and not how to have faith.

Image123:

Still I'll maintain that Jesus used faith. I didn't quote Mark 2:5 why bring that up?

I referred you to Mark 2:5 on the basis of your assertion, but you try to sidestep the question, so I reiterate again:

Mark 2:5  And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Did Jesus forgive the paralytic by his (Jesus') faith?

Image123:

Hebrews 11v6 says without faith it is impossible to please God. Aletheia revised version says without faith it is impossible for men and women to please God. I salute o! Are you of the wou(Word of Unbelief) movement?
Matthew 3v17 says This is my beloved Son, in whom I am WELL PLEASED.
Hebrews 11v6 says WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him. It takes more unbelief than faith to contradict those scriptures. Have you not read that the scriptures cannot be broken? Jesus cannot please God without faith.
Now I said God trusts/has faith in His children, I didn't say God trusts the sons of Adam. Is some mischievous demon changing my posts on your computer screens? God trusted Abraham e.g Genesis 18v19. God trusted Moses e.g Numbers 12v7. Faith is reliance, belief, conviction of truth. You just quoted that from Strong and Thayer. What more can I say.

You are being disingenuous. Who are those referred to in Hebrews 11? Is it not men and women like you and I, sons and daughters of Adam as to their physical descent? In Matt 3:17, what had Jesus done that you would regard as an act of faith that brought forth approbation from heaven? Was that not prior to the onset of his ministry? As to Matt 3:17, what is Peter's commentary on that incident:

2Pe 1:17-18  For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Where does Genesis 18:19 and Numbers 12:7 say that God trusted Abraham and Moses?

Gen 18:19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Num 12:7  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Are Abraham and Moses not sons of Adam?

Faith is reliance, belief, conviction of truth. The whole point of the Christian faith is that of reliance on Jesus Christ, belief that He is Who He is: to wit the Son of God, being convinced of that truth. That is the faith that can move mountains, not some sort of force like Anakin Skywalker uses.[quote][/quote]

@noetic, I think u are mixing the message with the messenger. True CE are used to heresy. . . . .but there is an element of TRUTH in their argument.

You accuse them of heresy yet you agree with their argument

What if what you term as heresy (that emanates from cec) is just that message (meat not milk) which you are yet to grasp?

Friend, dont be too hasty in making absolutist remarks and conclusions about people (especeially d church) because God did not make you a judge over them!!!!

@Aletheia: Please don't mind Deep Sight, he just wants to get you talking. I took out a lot of time some months ago to explain Psalm 22 with respect to the crucifixion to him, and he confessed that he was satisfied since he had never seen it that way before. I think JeSoul may remember, she was on the thread or so, I cant recall.