nwamehn:



In Christianity, there ar so many denominations, of which Roman Catholic, Anglican etc ar among. U have rightly said that Christianity didn't start as denominational, and that denominations began when the church started separating from each other. That's the point. Christianity began as Christianity and not as Roman Catholic church or Orthodox or Judeo-christianity or whatever we feel like calling it.
These other groups u ar talking about were churches spread across the entire East and West then and all of them made up the body of Christ which u refer to as the Church. And this body of Christ started first at Jerusalem, then Antioch and the rest, they even later had the church at Rome which was established by Paul, church at Corinth, other churches at greek established by Andrew and so may other churches.
The church at Antioch in Syria wasn't called the Catholic church in Syria neither was the church in Jerusalem called Roman Catholic church of Jerusalem. The church at Antioch in Syria was simply called the church at Antioch in Syria.
If the church at Antioch in Syria and the church at Jerusalem were never called Catholic churches, then I wonder how u will be saying that Jesus or Peter established any Catholic church in Jerusalem.
Jesus didn't establish any denomination, He didn't establish any church to put any person as the pope. And u will now go and bring the name of a denomination that was coined in 108 AD as u said which was so many years after Jesus died and say that it is the denomination that Jesus established, shebi? Lol.
Regarding that number 3, I asked u to tell me who was the Pope of the Catholic church in Rome that was overseeing the activities of the church at Antioch in Syria when the followers were first called Christians then. What u gave there isn't the answer. Or do u mean that Clement was the Pope when the church at Antioch in Syria was founded?

richie44:
I have been a Catholic all my life but studying my bible in my quest to know God more something happened that made me want to leavd the sect. I just want to ask some questions to Catholic

1. What is the highest authority in Christianity where doctrines can be gotten? The Bilble or the experience of our leaders

richie44:
I have been a Catholic all my life but studying my bible in my quest to know God more something happened that made me want to leavd the sect. I just want to ask some questions to Catholic


2. Why do we need the Vrigin Mary and other saints to intercede for us when holy spirit Romans 8 vs 26 and Jesus Christ Romans 8 vs 34? Does Jesus love his mother more than us? I thought he said those that do his works are his brethren? Don't you think we are undermining the love God has for us?


Please I need answers.

richie44:


3. Why do we refer to ourselves as sinners but the Bible in Colossians 1vs 13-14 and Ephesian 1vs 7 said we have been redeemed from sin?

Please I need answers.

Dnaz:

OK. Let's say u are right. The disciples were first called Christains in Antioch not in Jerusalem. That means Christianity began in Antioch and not Jerusalem. This is ur logic and that also means that Christ didn't establish Christianity either since it was some people that started using the term "Christianity"

nwamehn:



That's the point boss, Christ didn't establish any religion on earth whether Christianity or Judaism. It was outsiders that were even calling the followers Christians because they were behaving like Christ. And the so-called Christians have always adopted Christ as the person they follow.
Christ has no church nor religion, that's why ur religion or church cannot take u to heaven but ur belief in Him and ur ability to keep His words.
I can believe in Christ, follow His ways but not affiliate myself to any church nor religion. And u wouldn't say that everyone that believes in Christ must be called a Christian because the Bible never said I must be forced to answer the name Christian before I can follow Christ.

Dnaz:

Christ said, on this Rock I ll build my CHURC. He established a church period. U said Christianity as a religion ll not take u to heaven, only a belief in Christ, but what u don't get is that Christianity is a belief in Christ so its the same thing and u have just subscribed to religion even though u try to deny it

nwamehn:


I didn't say only belief in Christ, I also said following His principles. U ar mistaking belief in Christ and following His footsteps with Christianity as a religion. Can u name one single church in ur so-called Christianity that follows completely Christ's footsteps and not add or subtract from it?
Maybe, u have not understood that Christianity as a religion differs completely from belief in Christ and following His footsteps. Check the doctrines of several churches in the so-called Christian religion starting from Catholic church and check the teachings and life of Christ, u will realise that there ar a lot of differences between the two, plenty of them. If u think that being a Christian is a guarantee that u ar on good books with Christ, then who am I to discourage u? But the truth still remains that Christ didn't establish any religion nor church denomination on earth, and a man can go to heaven by just following Christ without having to identify with any religious affiliation.
Or, ar u in anyway trying to say that Christ established Christianity? Hahahah. Can u show me the verse in the scripture where He established Christianity before He died pls?
Anyway, that's by the way, it's not the bone of contention here, let me concentrate on the main issue.

My argument still centres on the fact that Christ didn't establish any Catholic church or Anglican church or whatever and He didn't make any Peter or Paul pope of any Catholic or Anglican church. If u still want to convince me that Christ established Roman Catholic church as the first church and made Peter the pope, then answer me, who was the pope of the Roman Catholic church at Rome that was overseeing the activities of the Church at Antioch in Syria when the followers of Christ were first called Christians?
I still have another question to ask u on this but it will be when u must have answered this one first.

Dnaz:

The disciples were first called Christains during the Pontificacy of Peter
And Religion is all about Beliefs and following Principles , no difference

Dnaz:
U don't believe in Religion or the Church but u Believe the Bible which is a Product of the Church/Christains religion
Let me ask you, Did Christ Establish the Bible?

nwamehn:



Nnaa mehn, try as much as u can not to quote me wrongly. I never said I don't believe in religion, nor church nor whatever. Kindly go over my posts and reread pls. Christ never established Christianity irrespective of whether u and I believe in it or not.
What I believe in has no bearing to whether Christ established it or not. I believe in Education, did Christ establish Education?
That I believe in Christianity or Judaism or whatever doesn't mean that Christ established Christianity or Judaism. Ur religion cannot take u to heaven, only ur belief in and followership of Christ can.
Christ never established any religion nor church on earth, if u say He established religion, which religion did He establish? If u say He established a church before He died, what is the name of that church? Catholic church? Hahahah.

Dnaz:

You are peter and on this Rock , I will build my church. Argue with ur village ppl

nwamehn:


Hahahah. E don reach insults? I never quoted u, u quoted me to begin ur argument yet u can't defend what u have been saying since. The first churches that existed which were the churches at Antioch and Jerusalem were never Catholic before or after the schism but they were both Orthodox after the schism and I guess u don't know that one. Google it, bro.
U claim that Catholic was the first church and Peter was the Pope, I asked u who was the Pope of the Catholic church at Rome overseeing the activities of the church at Antioch in Syria where the followers were first called Christians but up till now u couldn't answer, and now u have resorted to insults.
Pls, don't quote me next time oga. I don't do insults. I know why I chose to respond to u after ignoring ur mention before.
Have a nice day.

BluntTheApostle:


I agree with nearly everything you wrote up there but I don't agree that Catholicism is not a sect. The Catholic Church is unarguably the largest sect in the world.

nwamehn:


The churches that had existed before the Roman Catholic church include Jewish Christianity, Judaizing (not Judaism), Greek Orthodox church etc. Catholic church only came later and some of the members of Catholic church even where original members of some of these other older churches.

Ubenedictus:
the Catholic Church isn't a sect it is the Church... the sects are those who broke away in schism.

nwamehn:



So, u mean that many major Churches of the East which claim to have been founded by the apostles: eg Antioch by Paul and others; Alexandria by Mark; Greek Orthodox church in Byzantium by Andrew (which was then under Heraclea, Turkey rulership before Constantine moved to Byzantium); Cyprus by Barnabas; Ethiopia by Matthew; India by Thomas; Edessa in eastern Syria by Thaddeus; Armenia by Bartholomew; Georgia by Simon the Zealot; Corinthian church by Paul, were all under the Catholic church? U mean to tell me that the church in Antioch in Syria where the followers of Christ were first called Christians was a Roman Catholic church and it was under a Pope in Rome then shebi? So, as at the time the followers of Christ were first referred to as Christians at the church at Antioch in Syria, who was the Pope in Rome that was overseeing their activities in Antioch in Syria then? 
If u read and understood that Great Schism well, u wouldn't be saying all these.

For u to have said that there was nothing like Jewish Christianity shows that u have not read well. Pls, just google Jewish Christianity or Judeo-Christianity and educate urself.

U may also wish to find out what the group Judaizing was all about and whether they existed before Roman Catholic church or not by using Google too.

Point is, Greek and so many other Eastern Orthodox churches that were founded by different apostles as I listed above, Judeo-Christianity ie Jewish Christianity, and Judaizing (not Judaism) had existed before Catholic church was founded, but Jesus never founded any of these churches.

Have a nice day as u do ur research. I have no time to argue.

BluntTheApostle:


Don't make it look like churches broke away from you. The split produced what is today known as the Catholic Church.

You always make it look like there was a Catholic church and the churches split from it during the schism but that is not the truth.

BluntTheApostle:


The first and only True Church was established by Christ Himself. Early Christians mostly met in one another's houses and a gathering of believers was called a church. These churches were named after cities, for example, the Church in Antioch, which is believed to be the first Gentile church.

During this period, the Church was one and lived as one and worshipped God in spirit and in truth.

However the churches suffered a division in 451 AD in the Chalcedon Council. It was in this Council, that the churches split into The Oriental Orthodox Churches (which today still behave like the Apostles and in general, the earliest Christians) and the "Western Churches".

The Western Churches further split during the Schism of 1054 into The Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches.

So, you can see that the Roman Catholic Church is not the first Church, neither can anyone prove that it was the Church that Christ Himself established in Jerusalem.

Ubenedictus:
all those Eastern churches were all part of the Catholic Church until the schism, they were all in communion with the Pope of Rome.

this ancient writings of eastern bishops proves my case.

ALEXANDRIA
St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):
Rome is called "the Apostolic throne." (Athanasius, Hist.
Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
The Council of Sardica (342 A.D.)
...A Council presided over by St. Athanasius of Alexandria:
"If any bishop looses the judgment in some case [decided by
his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad
but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew
...***let us honor the memory of the Apostle Peter by having
those who have given the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of
Rome***, so that if it seem proper ***he may himself send
arbiters*** and the judgment may be made again by the
bishops of a neighboring province." (Council of Sardica,
Canon 3, 342 A.D.)

in Alexandria the Pope of Rome was the final arbiter in cases relating to bishops, he was the Court of appeal.

ANTIOCH the church founded by Paul
Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450):

"I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy
and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power,
and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy
throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches
throughout the universe on many grounds." (Theodoret, Tom.
iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).

"If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy
Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the
solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living
under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run
to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope
Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains
to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is
adorned with many prerogatives." (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle
Leoni)
"For that all holy throne has the office of heading the
Churches of the whole world, for many reasons; and, above
all others, because it has remained free of the communion of
heretical taint, and no one holding heterodox sentiments ever
sat in it, but it has preserved the Apostolic grace
unsullied." (Theodoret, Epist Renato)
"Hasten to your Apostolic See in order to receive from you a
cure for the wounds of the Church. For every reason it is
fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is
adorned with many priviledges. I have been condemned
without trial. But I await the sentence of your Apostolic See.
I beseech and implore Your Holiness to succor me in my
appeal to your fair and righteous tribunal. Bid me hasten to
you and prove to you that my teaching follows in the
footsteps of the Apostles." (Theodoret to Pope Leo, Ep. 113).
St. Eusebius of Doryleum (450): ...writing to Pope Leo:
"The Apostolic throne has been wont from the beginning to
defend those who are suffering injustice. I entreat Your
Blessedness, give me back the dignity of my episcopate and
communion with yourself, by letters from you to my lowliness
bestowing on me my rank and communion." (Eusebius of
Doryleum to Pope Leo)

as you can see, the Pope of Rome is responsible for ordering bishops even in Antioch, to judge their cases and grant communion in the church.

JERUSALEM
St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638):
"Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and
driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy
Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables
and characters, I accept all his (the Pope's) letters and
teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the
Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace
them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of
Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the
heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of
our Catholic Church." (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
"Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other
until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the
foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to
the most holy personages of that throne the questions
agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until
their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the
victorious judgment and destroyed from the foundation ...the
new heresy." (Sophronius,

Ubenedictus:
all those Eastern churches were all part of the Catholic Church until the schism, they were all in communion with the Pope of Rome.

this ancient writings of eastern bishops proves my case.

ALEXANDRIA
St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):
Rome is called "the Apostolic throne." (Athanasius, Hist.
Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
The Council of Sardica (342 A.D.)
...A Council presided over by St. Athanasius of Alexandria:
"If any bishop looses the judgment in some case [decided by
his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad
but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew
...***let us honor the memory of the Apostle Peter by having
those who have given the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of
Rome***, so that if it seem proper ***he may himself send
arbiters*** and the judgment may be made again by the
bishops of a neighboring province." (Council of Sardica,
Canon 3, 342 A.D.)

in Alexandria the Pope of Rome was the final arbiter in cases relating to bishops, he was the Court of appeal.

ANTIOCH the church founded by Paul
Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450):

"I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy
and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power,
and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy
throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches
throughout the universe on many grounds." (Theodoret, Tom.
iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).

"If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy
Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the
solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living
under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run
to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope
Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains
to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is
adorned with many prerogatives." (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle
Leoni)
"For that all holy throne has the office of heading the
Churches of the whole world, for many reasons; and, above
all others, because it has remained free of the communion of
heretical taint, and no one holding heterodox sentiments ever
sat in it, but it has preserved the Apostolic grace
unsullied." (Theodoret, Epist Renato)
"Hasten to your Apostolic See in order to receive from you a
cure for the wounds of the Church. For every reason it is
fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is
adorned with many priviledges. I have been condemned
without trial. But I await the sentence of your Apostolic See.
I beseech and implore Your Holiness to succor me in my
appeal to your fair and righteous tribunal. Bid me hasten to
you and prove to you that my teaching follows in the
footsteps of the Apostles." (Theodoret to Pope Leo, Ep. 113).
St. Eusebius of Doryleum (450): ...writing to Pope Leo:
"The Apostolic throne has been wont from the beginning to
defend those who are suffering injustice. I entreat Your
Blessedness, give me back the dignity of my episcopate and
communion with yourself, by letters from you to my lowliness
bestowing on me my rank and communion." (Eusebius of
Doryleum to Pope Leo)

as you can see, the Pope of Rome is responsible for ordering bishops even in Antioch, to judge their cases and grant communion in the church.

JERUSALEM
St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638):
"Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and
driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy
Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables
and characters, I accept all his (the Pope's) letters and
teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the
Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace
them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of
Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the
heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of
our Catholic Church." (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
"Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other
until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the
foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to
the most holy personages of that throne the questions
agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until
their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the
victorious judgment and destroyed from the foundation ...the
new heresy." (Sophronius,

nwamehn:



Lol. Boss, u didn't have to post all those literatures to prove ur point because ur points ar very clear. U mean that those churches were in communion with the Pope of Rome and for that were Catholics. I don't wish to enter that area of argument for now. My argument is that Catholic was not the first church and Peter wasn't the first Pope not whether the churches were in communion with Catholic at any point in time in their existence as u claim. Now my questions are these:
1. Before the church at Antioch began paying allegiance to the Pope of Rome according to u, what was it? Was it a Catholic church?
2. Before the church at Jerusalem were brought under the Pope of Rome according to u, what was the church at Jerusalem, was it a Catholic church?
3. Who was the Pope of the Roman Catholic church then overseeing the activities of the church at Antioch in Syria where the followers of Christ were first called Christians?

T5741418]I have been a Catholic all my life but studying my bible in my quest to know God more something happened that made me want to leavd the sect. I just want to ask some questions to Catholic

1. What is the highest authority in Christianity where doctrines can be gotten? The Bilble or the experience of our leaders

2. Why do we need the Vrigin Mary and other saints to intercede for us when holy spirit Romans 8 vs 26 and Jesus Christ Romans 8 vs 34? Does Jesus love his mother more than us? I thought he said those that do his works are his brethren? Don't you think we are undermining the love God has for us?

3. Why do we refer to ourselves as sinners but the Bible in Colossians 1vs 13-14 and Ephesian 1vs 7 said we have been redeemed from sin?

4. Why do we undermine the ministry of the holy spirit? We were made to believe that the gift of the spirit like speaking in touges, word of knowledge and so on are for some set of people who had the grace?

Please I need answers

Ubenedictus:
even before the council of chalcedon the church was already called the Catholic church since 107, at the council of chalcedon the church excommunicated the bishops of Alexandria because of the miaphyte heresy they teaching, those bishops form a faction called the Oriental Orthodox church, around 11th century the patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated and that led to him forming the Greek Orthodox church.

Ubenedictus:
the Christian church both in Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria etc was always one, no denominations just one church, by 100 AD the church called itself "the Catholic church" to differentiate the Christians from the gnostic heretics.

so all the church whether in Antioch or Alexandria or Rome were the Catholic church.

1. the head of the church was Peter while he was alive the headship of the church was once in Antioch but he Left for Rome and died there that is how church headship remained with the see of Rome as the cathedra of peter and the church of Paul. the church of Antioch was always the Catholic church, it always respected the Pope st Peter and from AD 60 when Peter was in Rome it has had all evidence to Rome.
2. the church in Jerusalem was the Catholic church, it was earlier under James, it was of course in communion with Peter, in 70AD the temple was destroyed and the church fled to the hills during the war and banishment of Jews, it was from here that the gospel spread, Jerusalem always had communion with Rome.
3. at that period the Pope was Peter, he wasn't yet in Rome.

nwamehn:


So, my man, u mean that the headquarters of the Catholic church was at Antioch before it was moved to Rome when Peter went there, am I right?

2. The first time or times that the churches at Antioch, Jerusalem, Corinth, etc decided to be called Catholic church according to u, did they all agree in a meeting to be called Catholic church or did they decide to be called Catholic churches at different times in their separate histories?

3. U rightly said that the name Catholic church came into existence in 100 AD when they chose to be called Catholic church to distinguish from heretics, and that before then, they were just Christian church, so, what u mean is that there was Christian church before the name Catholic church came into existence, isn't it?

BluntTheApostle:


The Roman Catholic Church was not the first Church. The term "Catholic" had been used by the Christian Church as referral to her universality.

There was one Church and when it split, the earliest churches such as the Roman Catholic Church came to be.

All the cities had Bishops who were called Popes but all the churches were regarded collectively as the Christian Church.

Ubenedictus:
not true either, the term Catholic was actually first used to distinguish the church from the heretics and schismatic who hadn't valid bishops. the entire church in communion with Rome was Catholic excluding the heretics and schismatics.

even before the split the church was already called Catholic and the bishop of Rome presided over the church.

even after the heretics at chalcedon were excommunicated, the church was still called Catholic, the excommunicated people called themselves Oriental, after the patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated the church was still called Catholic, the excommunicated ones started to call themselves Greek Orthodox. before the split the church was already called the Catholic church.

BluntTheApostle:


SMH...

Before the split, we had the Bishops of Constantinople and those of western Rome.

There was no Roman Catholic Church (Perhaps, I ought to include "Roman" ) until 1054.

The popes in western Rome got powerful over time but that was all about it, it had nothing to do with divinity, and the bishops of Constantinople were always in constant frictions with them.

It was when the Church split in 1054, that we had the eastern half becoming the Orthodox Church and the western half becoming the Roman Catholic Church.

My argument is that before the split, there was no "Roman" Catholic Church (or what we know as the Catholic Church today).

Ubenedictus:
there was the Catholic church, the "Roman" thing was an adjective the Anglicans started to use when they wanted to call themselves Catholics.

it was always the Catholic church and even before the schism was presided by the bishop of Rome.

before the split there was already the Catholic church presided by the bishop of Rome... if that is what you mean by "Roman" Catholic church... then it certainly existed before the schism.

Ubenedictus:


1. yes first in Jerusalem, later Antioch then Rome.

2. I don't know if they had a meeting, the first written documents that refer to the church as the Catholic church was written by Ignatius bishop of Antioch about 107 AD he wrote it as if everybody already knew that the church was called Catholic church... he wrote several letters one to Rome, one the the church in Smyrna the other to the Ephesians etc he was killed by the empire by been fed to beasts. all the Christian writings from around and after him from all over simply use the same Catholic church like every one already knew it not necessary at different times but more like they all knew it was the name of the church.

3. not true, I was called baby until 2 days after I was born the my parents named me ubenedictus does that mean the person called baby before is different from the person called ubenedictus? or are they different titles for the same person? I believe it is the same me first called baby now called ubenedictus.
the church used to called the way, then when it followers were called Christians in Antioch it started to be called the Christian church the same church was finally called the Catholic church, it doesn't mean the Catholic church came after the Christian church, rather the same church previously called the way was called Christian and later Catholic.