OneJ:




At Rev21:6 & 22:13 both. refer exclusively to God Almighty, not to Jesus Christ. Jesus & Almighty God are two distinct entities.
(1 Cor15:24,28. John 14:1. 17:1-3). Your Trinitarian website ntgreek.com has also confirmed it that Jesus "is not the Father God"
Pls don't get it twisted.




Do U even understand what U copy & paste above? That your aomin.org copy & paste is irrelevant here. Why?
Because the definite article ("the" is very common in Greek. No one is contesting that.
The bone of contention is should indefinite article ("a" be used in John 1:1? ntgreek.com says "it can not just be assumed" that indefinite article be placed there because of their doctrinal bias .

Ntgreek .com's arguement is weak& faulty because every other verse with similar Greek grammatical construction (Acts12:22. 28:6) with John 1:1 has ( "a god" there.
What is good for the gander is also good for the goose. (Hausa man say sell me as U sell my broda. Wetin una give Acts 28:6. 12:22, naim John 1:1 deserve. If U no agree, U done do 419 for there).




Does John 1:1 mean that Jesus is God?

Ntgreek says " However, since (John 1:1c) does not have the indefinite article , it does indicate that this Word was not the same person as the Father God".


Them say Jesus no be God.


Primesky , why U dey vex & dey lie lie when U see the truth stark naked before your very eyes?

U are STILL confused !
U said "God the Father- the Supreme Head." (1 Cor11:3). Where U see "God the son " for your Bible?


Ntgreek agreed that. "Jesus is not the Father God". Why is the truth too difficult for una to understand?
I know say U go bring up this issue. Na which crime Jesus commit if he answer him Father title wey him Father permit? (John8:28,29. 10:25. ).
Therefore, Rev 22:16 is no proof that Jesus is God. Jesus is an Apostle ( Hebrew 3:1), does it mean he is of equal rank & status with his apostles ? Or does that mean that Jesus is the same person as Apostles Peter/Paul ?
For instance, Burutai is a military officer just as the Commandant of the NYSC is a military officer, na the same person them be ? After all, who is the source of this Revelation ?
Rev 1:1 " The Revelation of Jesus Christ ,which God gave unto him.... he sent & signified it by his angel unto his servant John".

This is my final response to U on Trinity issue. We can agree to disagree.
Shalom.

The trinity doctrine is false...
Christ comes to show us how to be One with the father. The father is Spirit = Consciousness. Man is made up of a Spirit (Adam) and Soul (Eve). When the two unite or marry they become One with God. The Spirit being the Godhead. So when Christ says I and the father are One, it means his Soul and Spirit are One.

tomakint:
God is Supreme and He Alone Is One but how come some Christians call Jesus God When the Bible never said so. Below is my take with references from the Holy Scriptures;

I Saw In The Night Visions, And, Behold, One Like The Son Of Man (Jesus Christ) Came With The Clouds Of Heaven, And Came To The Ancient Of Days (God Almighty Father, Yahweh), And They Brought Him Near Before Him. (Daniel 7: 13)
The Revelation Of Jesus Christ, Which God (Yahweh, Jehovah) Gave Unto Him, To Shew Unto His Servants Things Which Must Shortly Come To Pass; And He Sent And Signified It By His Angel Unto His Servant John: (Revelation 1:1)

Jesus Said Unto Them, If God Were Your Father, Ye Would Love Me: For I proceeded Forth And Came From God (Yahweh); Neither Came I Of Myself, But He Sent Me. (John 8: 42) How Come Trinitarians Are Preaching Three Gods With Equal Powers And Strength When The Bible Never Said So. What Do You Believe? Bible Never Calls Jesus As God Almighty But Calls Him Only Begotten Son Of God Who Is Subservient To God Almighty And Was Sent By God To Redeem All Mankind To God Almighty By The Shedding Of His Precious Blood As Instructed By The Ancient Of Days.

GodSon34:
The trinity doctrine is false...
Christ comes to show us how to be One with the father. The father is Spirit = Consciousness. Man is made up of a Spirit (Adam) and Soul (Eve). When the two unite or marry they become One with God. The Spirit being the Godhead. So when Christ says I and the father are One, it means his Soul and Spirit are One.

TRINITY in another version.

Another version? So how is God the Son? Abeggi don’t miss-represent my contribution. Nothing trinity about what I wrote

TATIME:
TRINITY in another version.

Mark 13:32 also proves trinity is false
32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

TATIME:
TRINITY in another version.

GodSon34:
Mark 13:32 also proves trinity is false
32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

After all, if they are one and the same person, both the Son and the Father ought to know.

This discussion is funnier than that however. I haven't come across it yet in this thread, but I'm sure someone would claim my son and I are one, which is a great idea when you think of it. My son won't have to bother learning anything, since it could acquire all I know by mere fact that I'm his parent. It sure would save me school fees!

Emusan:
It's still evident that you're still beating around the bush.



Two personalities WERE together from beginning and the second was called THE ETERNAL LIFE, can ETERNAL be created?

Mind you one of those things that made the father God is that He is ETERNAL. Now, if the Bible says Jesus is also ETERNAL, what does that mean?



Imagine, simple English is hard for you to comprehend here. Now let's even follow your own pattern, the verse says His BIRTH/BEGINNING is from ETERNITY. Does a created being come from ETERNITY?

Whereas, the Hebrew word in that verse is "<mowtsa'ah>" which is best describes as 'going forth' just as KJV put it. This best described as being in action from eternity.




I laugh anytime you people try to use Prov 8 without noticing the implication on what you're claiming.

For your information, the context of prov 8 shows that it was the FATHER who was actually carrying out the creative activities not Wisdom.

If you're in doubt, check how it was written:
v26 - while as yet HE had not made the earth
v27 - when HE prepared the heavens...when HE set a compass...
v28 - When HE established the cloud...when HE strengthen the fountains e.t.c

The HE here, who is he? The father or Wisdom?

So the content of John 1:3 simply means NOTHING has been created pro to the time CREATION begins unless you want to tell us that Jesus is the one who created Himself.
.


The very first thing we read in Col 1:17 is "He existed before ANYTHING else, and holds ALL CREATION together" did Jesus is the one holding himself?

Just as you interpret origin to be birth/beginning why can't you also look at the Greek words used in those verses whether it actually means CREATED?

But the question you're still dodging is, the BIBLE says Jesus is THE eternal life, can eternal life be created?



You still don't want to learn.
When Jesus became part of the creations John 1:10, He became first born (preeminence) of creation, He was appointed heir of all things, He grew in wisdom and knowledge, He became first born among dead e.t.c

This was the very point the blessed Apostle Paul was addressing in the same Colossians 1:18 "...so that HE ALONE in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and preeminent]"- AMP

"...so that HE Himself will COME to have FIRST place in everything" - NASB

"...so He is FIRST in everything" - NLT

"...so that he might become the one who is first in all things; - NWT

Can you see that when Jesus became part of the creations He has to become FIRST.



Nobody asked you this. I only show you that even your organization admitted that Jesus posseses ALL THINGS man knows that makes a being to be God.

The Jews who listened to Jesus understood Him perfectly but you and your organization are just a tool in the hand of the Devil to manipulate the truth.

Imagine, if I tell you, OneJ you must respect me JUST AS you respect your Daddy...what do I mean by that?

In your last statement, U actually mean that the respect I accord to U must be same as that I give to my daddy.
In other words, Christ Jesus & his Father are one, just like Christ ,his Father & disciples are one. In like manner that husband & wife are one.


Agreed that two personalities were stated in John 1:2. God Almighty & his only begotten son "who is at his Father's side" (John 1:18). In any context that father & son relationship exist, one is always greater than the other. Do U agree, Mr Emusan?


The Hebrew bible of Micah 5:2..."whose origin are far in the past, back in ancient times". Another Hebrew language translation reads :
"..his origin is from of old,from the days of yore".

Contrary to your opinion,the texts does infact only pointed Christ pre human existence before his birth on earth as the God sent Messiah.

Una come frame am like say Christ na Baba God Almighty.


Prov8:22-30 " Yahweh (Adonai, The Lord ) possessed (acquired/ brought me forth/made) me at the beginning of his way,the first of his ancient works". (source: biblegateway).

God's word has spoken for itself. Nothing can I add to it at all.


Pls show me from scripture where "only begotten son or first born " was applied to the Almighty God. Or where Baba God prayed. to Jesus or took orders from Christ. Jesus? Shalom.

TATIME:
Fully understood

Your point, TATIME, is?
What is the point(s) you're trying to make with that screen grab?

OneJ:
Mutteylaff,
Trinitarian folks (ntgreek, Emusan who said "Jesus is not the Father' & Primesky who argued that Jesus is the Father),
as shown above your views contradict each other because Una false doctrine dey confuse all of una.
Confusion transmission . Hahahahahaaa!

OneJ, that's the beauty of paradox

We see evidences of God being God, then being God the Father and God the Son in the bible
but the absurdity of the situation, is the pigeonholing God into trinity

God is not limited to 3 persons
because God is ''I AM THAT I AM'', ''I SHALL BE THAT I SHALL'', ''I WILL BE THAT I BE''
so since, God is, not-known-number-of-persons
God, then, is x-persons. God, then is ∞-person

Adam, Noah, the patriarchs, the Israelites etcetera didnt know God as a Father
The realisation or knowledge of God being a Father came with the advent of Jesus

Who knows what other person(s), during the passage of time, God will also reveal Himself to be

OneJ:
U too are confused. See the evidence below....

OneJ you're wanted on confused.com website
as, in actual fact, you cant see that ntgreek.org admitted that "the word was a god" is very incorrect.
Una no see am, ntgreek nefa agree say "the word was a god". For where?
Hin know say the "the word is not a god" but is God

Besides, Philippians 2:5-8a above, in fact, hin ntgreek, too come korokoro, conclude, say: "Jesus is God" Allelulai!
See am, from the previously above screenshot blue highlighted section

OneJ:
" HAVE THIS IN YOUR MIND,which was also in Christ Jesus,
(who existing in God's form, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped... "
Mutteylaff, since its true that Christians have the mind of Christ,
therefore, we "didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped"
(we too are equal with God. That's the absolute conclusion too. U can't deny it !!).
Phil 2:9 " But God exalted him to a position where he is today.

Do you exist in God's form?
Your conclusion is absolutely and seriously flawed

Having an understanding of how the president thinks doesnt mean I am the president
Think about that.

OneJ:
There is no scripture where Christ gave command or orders to his Father.
Why? John14:28 the Father is greater than Jesus His son.

Why should you think or expect Christ to give command or orders to His Father?
I am glad you accept that the Father is greater than Jesus His Son.
but if you know that on humanly terms, this is a fact and true,
why then should it be different with God the Father and Jesus, His Son?

OneJ:
However, 1 Cor 2:16 says " we Christians have the mind of Christ," not the mind of God.

Context is King.
Let this be the last time, you ever read and quote bible verses in isolation.
That verse is talking about having the ability to understand Christ
Contrary to your " not the mind of God" ludicrous remark,
by same Christ, equalling by this Proxy, also have the ability to understand the mind of God

OneJ:
Jesus said (John 14:24. 7:16) "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to Him who sent me"
Matt 24:36 " Only the Father knows that Day & Hour" because Jesus is not God & he does not know what God knows.

Jesus replied,
It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.
- Acts 1:7

Keep telling you that: Context is King.
It is not for Jesus to tell, even if He knows
He is not in the position to tell, even He knows
It is not within His remit to tell even if He knows of the day and hour

OneJ:
Christ never claimed or said he is God.
Trinitarian folks imposed Godship on Jesus by fire by force.....
Shalom

Unlike how some would readily and without hesitating blow their own trumpet,
He, Christ didnt have to claim or say He is God,
didnt need to claim or say He is God
and had no need to outrightly claim or say He is God

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, those that ate and eat, know that He is God

MuttleyLaff:

Unlike how some would readily and without hesistate blow their own trumpet,
He, Christ didnt have to claim or say He is God,
didnt need to claim or say He is God
and had no need to outrightly claim or say He is God

A more simple and straightforward reason could have been that his Father taught him well and he never departed from it.

1And God spoke all these words:

2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3“You shall have no other gods before me.

4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

OneJ:




U are STILL confused !
U said "God the Father- the Supreme Head." (1 Cor11:3). Where U see "God the son " for your Bible?


Ntgreek agreed that. "Jesus is not the Father God". Why is the truth too difficult for una to understand?
I know say U go bring up this issue. Na which crime Jesus commit if he answer him Father title wey him Father permit? (John8:28,29. 10:25. ).
Therefore, Rev 22:16 is no proof that Jesus is God. Jesus is an Apostle ( Hebrew 3:1), does it mean he is of equal rank & status with his apostles ? Or does that mean that Jesus is the same person as Apostles Peter/Paul ?
For instance, Burutai is a military officer just as the Commandant of the NYSC is a military officer, na the same person them be ? After all, who is the source of this Revelation ?
Rev 1:1 " The Revelation of Jesus Christ ,which God gave unto him.... he sent & signified it by his angel unto his servant John".

This is my final response to U on Trinity issue. We can agree to disagree.
Shalom.

Hahaha... The truth remains the truth!. Please don't deny it. I won't mock you. I need you to see the truth for yourself, and the bible is very clear about who Jesus Christ is. It's just that you're trying to defend yourself and save face. That I understand, but please, don't continue in it.

Again, you have misinterpreted what the bible meant by calling Jesus Christ an Apostle.

If Jesus answering the name of God was just because God is his father, why should only him answer the name of his father?. Are the angels and men not sons of God, who can also answer the name of the Father?.

Let me show you again from scriptures.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Why did the Jews say that by saying He is the Son of God, He makes Himself equal with God?. Did the language hide something from us?. Again, why is that everytime, Jesus is referred to, the definite article 'the' is always attached as a prefix to Son?. Why is it always 'the Son of God'?. Is Jesus Christ the only son of God?. Why is He always referred in such manner?.

Jesus is not a mere prophet or apostle, but Jesus Christ is God the Son!. Shalom.

Primesky:



Hahaha... The truth remains the truth!. Please don't deny it. I won't mock you. I need you to see the truth for yourself, and the bible is very clear about who Jesus Christ is. It's just that you're trying to defend yourself and save face. That I understand, but please, don't continue in it.

Again, you have misinterpreted what the bible meant by calling Jesus Christ an Apostle.

If Jesus answering the name of God was just because God is his father, why should only him answer the name of his father?. Are the angels and men not sons of God, who can also answer the name of the Father?.

Let me show you again from scriptures.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Why did the Jews say that by saying He is the Son of God, He makes Himself equal with God?. Did the language hide something from us?. Again, why is that everytime, Jesus is referred to, the definite article 'the' is always attached as a prefix to Son?. Why is it always 'the Son of God'?. Is Jesus Christ the only son of God?. Why is He always referred in such manner?.

Jesus is not a mere prophet or apostle, but Jesus Christ is God the Son!. Shalom.

Thank you sir. You are a voice crying out in the wilderness, just like John the Baptist.

The knowledge of Yahweh name and that he is ONE is the MARK of Yahweh.
The Mark of The beast is ANCIENT MARK OF TAMMUZ the CROSS AND pagan TRINITY .

Well, when Christian folks come to the concensus that Jesus never was, is and will be God, they should probably scrutinize further the teachings of Jesus because most of their practices today are the things written in the letters of Paul to the Galatians. See Galatians 6:11. So clearly Jesus might have called himself the "son of God", he most probably meant in obedience because he stated on the mountain, one of the 8 beatitudes, "blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God". Sadly the gospel he preached can't be found in their context for he clearly didn't have a Bible under his armpit when he sits in the synagogues to preach. He most likely elaborated on Mosaic laws. See Hebrews 6:1. If the principles of Christ is abandoned, what principles is in use?. Furthermore, the account of Paul's story is a bit confusing. Acts 9:7 Paul's companions heard the voice but didn't see who Paul was speaking to. Acts 22:9 Paul's companions saw the light but didn't hear any voice. Many other contradictions like this and we don't know what to make of the whole thing. Lastly, in over 5 places that I know where Jesus is clearly shown to have been sent to the people of Israel. So, why not look into connecting with God on a more general ground? Jesus said he was sent to Israel in so many places and verses like John 3:16 can only be seen as interpolation and contradiction because Jesus said in multiple places that he was sent ONLY to Israel and then he says world in John 3:16 and a couple of other places. And if the founder of Christianity has suggested to leave the doctrine of Christ, don't you think a deviation has occurred??. We are running out of time... The anti Christ is at hand... Secure your soul with God before it is too late. Imagine thinking your sins have been wiped away by a blood only to discover that your sins have been piling and to make matters worse, the one you had hope on tells you to get away from him because he doesn't know you. What a painful day it would be because souls will be lost due to ignorance. Jesus said his people perish because they lack knowledge.

When Jesus speaks, he says, "o Israel....I am a man approved by God among you " but when Mohammed speaks, he says "O mankind.... I am God's prophet to you.". Israel and Mankind. You can see the difference. Don't get caught up in things God and Jesus didn't even authorize. Save your soul. Ask a Muslim how to. Allah loves us all. Come and join the Ummah of the prophet of mankind. It's free. Absolutely and the sins would truly be washed away for real now.

Primesky:



Hahaha... The truth remains the truth!. Please don't deny it. I won't mock you. I need you to see the truth for yourself, and the bible is very clear about who Jesus Christ is. It's just that you're trying to defend yourself and save face. That I understand, but please, don't continue in it.

Again, you have misinterpreted what the bible meant by calling Jesus Christ an Apostle.

If Jesus answering the name of God was just because God is his father, why should only him answer the name of his father?. Are the angels and men not sons of God, who can also answer the name of the Father?.

Let me show you again from scriptures.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Why did the Jews say that by saying He is the Son of God, He makes Himself equal with God?. Did the language hide something from us?. Again, why is that everytime, Jesus is referred to, the definite article 'the' is always attached as a prefix to Son?. Why is it always 'the Son of God'?. Is Jesus Christ the only son of God?. Why is He always referred in such manner?.

Jesus is not a mere prophet or apostle, but Jesus Christ is God the Son!. Shalom.

Don't always be in a hurry to know the mind of God concerning his Word. You need the Holy Spirit for deeper interpretations of the Scriptures to you. The Bible is never in support of Trinity, a doctrine evoked by a Roman Emperor, Flavinus Constantine in the year 325 AD despite reading the lengthy piece of the origin of Trinity as a dogma in the first page of this thread, I wonder why you are trying hard to rubber stamp Trinity Doctrine into the Bible. There is only One God (Yahweh, Jehovah) there is only Begotten Son who also worships the Father as seen many times in the book of John chapters 6 upwards, also in Revelations from Chapters 4 to 6 and also this same Only Begotten Son can be worshipped as established by the Only One God ( Yahweh). Trinity preaches about three Gods united in one, under the same substance, co-equal in strength and authority........so looking at this, I still wonder why you are trying to squeeze Bible passages to support Trinity when it is not so. Read other people's opinions here and learn......be opened to learn from others. God bless you!

Whysoserious:
Well, when Christian folks come to the concensus that Jesus never was, is and will be God, they should probably scrutinize further the teachings of Jesus because most of their practices today are the things written in the letters of Paul to the Galatians. See Galatians 6:11. So clearly Jesus might have called himself the "son of God", he most probably meant in obedience because he stated on the mountain, one of the 8 beatitudes, "blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God". Sadly the gospel he preached can't be found in their context for he clearly didn't have a Bible under his armpit when he sits in the synagogues to preach. He most likely elaborated on Mosaic laws. See Hebrews 6:1. If the principles of Christ is abandoned, what principles is in use?. Furthermore, the account of Paul's story is a bit confusing. Acts 9:7 Paul's companions heard the voice but didn't see who Paul was speaking to. Acts 22:9 Paul's companions saw the light but didn't hear any voice. Many other contradictions like this and we don't know what to make of the whole thing. Lastly, in over 5 places that I know where Jesus is clearly shown to have been sent to the people of Israel. So, why not look into connecting with God on a more general ground? Jesus said he was sent to Israel in so many places and verses like John 3:16 can only be seen as interpolation and contradiction because Jesus said in multiple places that he was sent ONLY to Israel and then he says world in John 3:16 and a couple of other places. And if the founder of Christianity has suggested to leave the doctrine of Christ, don't you think a deviation has occurred??. We are running out of time... The anti Christ is at hand... Secure your soul with God before it is too late. Imagine thinking your sins have been wiped away by a blood only to discover that your sins have been piling and to make matters worse, the one you had hope on tells you to get away from him because he doesn't know you. What a painful day it would be because souls will be lost due to ignorance. Jesus said his people perish because they lack knowledge.

When Jesus speaks, he says, "o Israel....I am a man approved by God among you " but when Mohammed speaks, he says "O mankind.... I am God's prophet to you.". Israel and Mankind. You can see the difference. Don't get caught up in things God and Jesus didn't even authorize. Save your soul. Ask a Muslim how to. Allah loves us all. Come and join the Ummah of the prophet of mankind. It's free. Absolutely and the sins would truly be washed away for real now.

My Muslim friend, we are discussing something way ahead and beyond you here you can take your "evangelism" elsewhere!

tomakint:


My Muslim friend, we are discussing something way ahead and beyond you here you can take your "evangelism" elsewhere!

My Christian friend, don't be lost. Already there is obviously a different opinion about the nature of God and Jesus. You don't need to argue about all these things. And I haven't even given you my personal opinion. All these are in the bible. All the reference. How is confusion beyond and ahead of Islam Don't perish. God loves his servants. All of us. Romans 6:22 says so. Also, pay some attention to the Old Testament... Nehemiah 8:4-6. This is true worship. Seek God and let him find you. Drop all these things that Christ never authorized. If what you are discussing is beyond and ahead of Islam, are you claiming to be in the class of those Mark 16: 17-18 speak of All these things are deceitful. Drop them and find God.

tomakint:


Don't always be in a hurry to know the mind of God concerning his Word. You need the Holy Spirit for deeper interpretations of the Scriptures to you. The Bible is never in support of Trinity, a doctrine evoked by a Roman Emperor, Flavinus Constantine in the year 325 AD despite reading the lengthy piece of the origin of Trinity as a dogma in the first page of this thread, I wonder why you are trying hard to rubber stamp Trinity Doctrine into the Bible. There is only One God (Yahweh, Jehovah) there is only Begotten Son who also worships the Father as seen many times in the book of John chapters 6 upwards, also in Revelations from Chapters 4 to 6 and also this same Only Begotten Son can be worshipped as established by the Only One God ( Yahweh). Trinity preaches about three Gods united in one, under the same substance, co-equal in strength and authority........so looking at this, I still wonder why you are trying to squeeze Bible passages to support Trinity when it is not so. Read other people's opinions here and learn......be opened to learn from others. God bless you!

That's a complete lie my dear. Don't deny the bible!

No amount of twisting and lying will push away the obvious truth. Trinity was not invented by any man.

Maybe you're not actually reading your own thread. There's only one God who manifest himself in three!. You yourself are a trinity. I wonder how difficult that is to understand. Let me tell you, denying the trinity is to not believe in who God is. You need to tread carefully, don't let the devil deceive you.

If you truly have the Holy Spirit, you wouldn't be arguing about this because He cannot deny himself!.

It's true the Prophet of Islam(pbuh) was asked to ask the people of the book about his status as a prophet if he doesn't understand at that time, however, the people of the book have sooo much to learn from us. Concerning Jesus being the WORD of God according to John 1:1. This WORD here isn't pointing at Jesus (pbuh) . God has always had what no man would have. Creative will/power. All he has to say is "be! " and it is. That is the WORD in John 1:1. That power is the WORD. Now, let us go into Psalm 33:7 "By the WORD of the Lord were the heavens made and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth". Here shows that that WORD isn't a person. But a power. Our Quran finally says in Quran 6:73 that Allah creates all things with his WORD. To clear the confusion for us, he told us that some of the people of the book who have misunderstood will argue but we should tell them that Quran 3:59 to Allah, the likeness of the creation of Jesus (pbuh) is like that of Adam (pbuh). The creative power makes God create something from absolutely nothing. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand, needs a something to make another something. Eg, turn water into wine. Turn 5 loaves of bread into thousand etc. This shows he can't make something out of nothing. This is because he doesn't have the word that God possesses. So Jesus (pbuh ) isn't the word of God. Jesus (pbuh) wasn't born like the rest of us. Adam's (pbuh) creation is even more glorious... But he isn't worshiped. Finally, Melchizedek would have been a more accepted god than Jesus(pbuh) because he had no parents, no beginning and no end. Stop confusing the power of God to be Jesus(pbuh). He didn't even tell you these things and the things he said aren't followed these days. You have to go back to his teachings of monotheism. Worship of the one true God. Just like the prophets before him... And just as the last and final prophet after him did.

@op are you not a man, Is your dad not a man, is your uncle not a man? So what's the big deal in Jesus being a God. He is God.. Even the scripture says that we that received Christ are known as the Sons of God, which automatically means we are God. No argument, bye.

OneJ:
In your last statement, U actually mean that the respect I accord to U must be same as that I give to my daddy.
In other words, Christ Jesus & his Father are one, just like Christ ,his Father & disciples are one. In like manner that husband & wife are one.

So you quickly modified your point anyway what I asked you isn't about being one but the gravity of the statement itself "JUST AS" This shows that I'm demanding for EQUAL RIGHT.

Jesus says "So that men will honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father"

In your first reply before modification, you said "and you think I will respect you like my father" you know the effect that's why you quickly modified it.

Agreed that two personalities were stated in John 1:2. God Almighty & his only begotten son "who is at his Father's side" (John 1:18). In any context that father & son relationship exist, one is always greater than the other. Do U agree,

Trinitarian has always maintained that The Father is GREATER than the Son in position but not in NATURE. So stop following the wrong view of Trinity through the speck of your organization.

That's why I do say that you people need Bible study and not online debate.

The Hebrew bible of Micah 5:2..."whose origin are far in the past, back in ancient times". Another Hebrew language translation reads :
"..his origin is from of old,from the days of yore".

Contrary to your opinion,the texts does infact only pointed Christ pre human existence before his birth on earth as the God sent Messiah.

Just imagine and listing to your twisting.

His ORIGIN is from ETERNITY! The key point here is ETERNITY, can a created being have ORIGIN from EVERLASTING/ETERNITY/ANCIENT DAYS.

Just like I said you need Bible study, the Father Himself is "THE BEGINNING" does that make the Father to be created?

Una come frame am like say Christ na Baba God Almighty.

But una com frame am like say Jesus no com from eternity nor God.

Prov8:22-30 " Yahweh (Adonai, The Lord ) possessed (acquired/ brought me forth/made) me at the beginning of his way,the first of his ancient works". (source: biblegateway).

God's word has spoken for itself. Nothing can I add to it at all.

You people don't pay attention to the scripture contents which has made Satan to use the opportunity in manipulating you.

The verse says "....at the BEGINNING of his WAY" So kindly tell the how the Father who is eternal has a beginning way!

Then you will know it's either you lack the knowledge or misconstrue the writer intent.

Pls show me from scripture where "only begotten son or first born " was applied to the Almighty God. Or where Baba God prayed. to Jesus or took orders from Christ. Jesus? Shalom.

Show me where only begotten or first born was applied to the Son before he came to earth.

Did the Father become human?

tomakint:


Don't always be in a hurry to know the mind of God concerning his Word. You need the Holy Spirit for deeper interpretations of the Scriptures to you. The Bible is never in support of Trinity, a doctrine evoked by a Roman Emperor, Flavinus Constantine in the year 325 AD despite reading the lengthy piece of the origin of Trinity as a dogma in the first page of this thread, I wonder why you are trying hard to rubber stamp Trinity Doctrine into the Bible. There is only One God (Yahweh, Jehovah) there is only Begotten Son who also worships the Father as seen many times in the book of John chapters 6 upwards, also in Revelations from Chapters 4 to 6 and also this same Only Begotten Son can be worshipped as established by the Only One God ( Yahweh). Trinity preaches about three Gods united in one, under the same substance, co-equal in strength and authority........so looking at this, I still wonder why you are trying to squeeze Bible passages to support Trinity when it is not so. Read other people's opinions here and learn......be opened to learn from others. God bless you!

Would you care to consider this ; God said, let us create man in our own image and likeness.

Man is also a triune being just like God.

ScienceWatch:
Would you care to consider this ; God said, let us create man in our own image and likeness.

Man is also a triune being just like God.

You folks are just immune to spiritual things I wonder where you folks woke up from and started spewing unfounded hypothesis on the scriptures. How dare you compare God to man, what do you know about God? This was the same anger God vented on Job in the book of Job Chapters 38 to 40 when he askedJob to explain who he is.....Trinity is the Doctrine of Man that has no place in the Holy Bible. If you are still stubborn and hellbent to twist the Word of Life to suit your erroneous dogma, kindly explain Mark 13:32 to us why Jesus Christ in his own word claimed even him do not know the Appointed Time of Judgment yet you claimed Jesus is God when Jesus Christ already established his relationship with his father as A Begotten Son.

"What occurred at the Council of Nicea?"

Answer: The Council of Nicea took place in AD 325 by order of the Roman Emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine. Nicea was located in Asia Minor, east of Constantinople. At the Council of Nicea, Emperor Constantine presided over a group of church bishops and other leaders with the purpose of defining the nature of God for all of Christianity and eliminating confusion, controversy, and contention within the church. The Council of Nicea overwhelmingly affirmed the deity and eternality of Jesus Christ and defined the relationship between the Father and the Son as “of one substance.” It also affirmed the Trinity—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were listed as three co-equal and co-eternal Persons.

Constantine, who claimed conversion to Christianity, called for a meeting of bishops to be held in Nicea to resolve some escalating controversies among the church leadership. The issues being debated included the nature of Jesus Christ, the proper date to celebrate Easter, and other matters. The failing Roman Empire, now under Constantine’s rule, could not withstand the division caused by years of hard-fought, “out of hand” arguing over doctrinal differences. The emperor saw the quarrels within the church not only as a threat to Christianity but as a threat to society as well. Therefore, at the Council of Nicea, Constantine encouraged the church leaders to settle their internal disagreements and become Christlike agents who could bring new life to a troubled empire. Constantine felt “called” to use his authority to help bring about unity, peace, and love within the church.

The main theological issue had always been about Christ. Since the end of the apostolic age, Christians had begun debating these questions: Who is the Christ? Is He more divine than human or more human than divine? Was Jesus created or begotten? Being the Son of God, is He co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, or is He lower in status than the Father? Is the Father the one true God, or are the Father, Son, and Spirit the one true God?

A priest named Arius presented his argument that Jesus Christ was not an eternal being, that He was created at a certain point in time by the Father. Bishops such as Alexander and the deacon Athanasius argued the opposite position: that Jesus Christ is eternal, just like the Father is. It was an argument pitting trinitarianism against monarchianism.

Constantine prodded the 300 bishops in the council make a decision by majority vote defining who Jesus Christ is. The statement of doctrine they produced was one that all of Christianity would follow and obey, called the “Nicene Creed.” This creed was upheld by the church and enforced by the Emperor. The bishops at Nicea voted to make the full deity of Christ the accepted position of the church. The Council of Nicea upheld the doctrine of Christ’s true divinity, rejecting Arius’s heresy. The council did not invent this doctrine. Rather, it only recognized what the Bible already taught.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus the Messiah should be worshipped, which is to say He is co-equal with God. The New Testament forbids the worship of angels (Colossians 2:18; Revelation 22:8, 9) but commands worship of Jesus. The apostle Paul tells us that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9; 1:19). Paul declares Jesus as Lord and the One to whom a person must pray for salvation (Romans 10:9-13; cf. Joel 2:32). “Jesus is God overall” (Romans 9:5) and our God and Savior (Titus 2:13). Faith in Jesus’ deity is basic to Paul’s theology.

John’s Gospel declares Jesus to be the divine, eternal Logos, the agent of creation and source of life and light (John 1:1-5,9); "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6); our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2); the Sovereign (Revelation 1:5); and the Son of God from the beginning to the end (Revelation 22:13). The author of Hebrews reveals the deity of Jesus through His perfection as the most high priest (Hebrews 1; Hebrews 7:1-3). The divine-human Savior is the Christian’s object of faith, hope, and love.

The Council of Nicea did not invent the doctrine of the deity of Christ. Rather, the Council of Nicea affirmed the apostles’ teaching of who Christ is—the one true God and the Second Person of the Trinity, with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

"Who was Constantine the Great?"

Answer: Constantine the Great (AD 280—337) was one of Rome’s most powerful and successful emperors and the first to self-identify as a Christian. He is known for his economic, political, and military achievements, as well as his religious reforms. Medieval writers praised him as the ideal ruler, against whom all kings were measured. Over time, his reign was viewed with waning enthusiasm. Historians also began to debate how committed Constantine was to Christianity or how devoutly he actually followed it. Constantine was influential in Christian history for his personal faith, religious politics, issuing the Edict of Milan, and calling the Council of Nicea.

Constantine was the son of a Roman official and his Christian concubine. This placed him in line to succeed the throne of the Western Roman Empire. At age 31, he prepared to attack his chief rival with an army outnumbered 4-to-1. Before the battle, Constantine claimed to have seen a vision of Jesus, with a specific symbol, telling him, “By this sign, conquer.” Constantine ordered his troops to mark their shields with this symbol, the Chi-Rho, then a symbol commonly representing Christianity. The Chi-Rho combines the first two letters in the Greek word for “Christ” and resembles a capital P with an X drawn through the spine. Constantine’s forces routed the enemy, and he became emperor. The Chi-Rho symbol would be part of Constantine’s personal signature for the rest of his life.

As emperor, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which declared Roman citizens free to worship whatever gods they chose. The Edict of Milan ended longstanding persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire. At that time, Constantine did not (yet) claim to be a Christian himself, nor did he advocate for an official state religion. Based on his continued use of certain pagan symbols, scholars believe Constantine’s early religion was generally theistic, rather than specifically Christian. His boldness in using Christian language grew during his reign. After assuming control of the entire Roman Empire, he built lavish churches and came to openly espouse Christianity.

During Constantine’s reign, controversy arose over the teachings of Arius, who denied the full divinity of Jesus. Constantine called a meeting of Christian bishops, the Council of Nicea, to settle the dispute. Contrary to popular myth, this meeting did not discuss the canon of the Bible, nor was Constantine influential in the council’s decisions. Emperors saw themselves as responsible for promoting “correct” forms of worship; Constantine’s interest was not to declare orthodoxy but to let the bishops determine it so that he could enforce it. Further, Constantine was not known for his philosophical ability and found himself lost in deeper discussions of theology. Rather, he acted as the council’s mediator and host, roles at which he excelled.

Constantine’s Christian faith has frequently been critiqued, if not questioned outright. On one hand, he made great strides in securing political and social rights for Christians and initiating general humanitarian reforms. He poured time and money into building churches and publicly supporting Christianity. Particularly toward the end of his reign, Constantine vocally professed faith in Christ and credited his success to God. He was baptized shortly before his death, according to the common practice of his time.

On the other hand, Constantine continued many pagan practices, including veneration of the sun. His interest in Christian orthodoxy was motivated primarily by a desire to maintain social order. There are also reasons to suspect that Constantine was as ruthless toward rivals as prior emperors had been. One of his sons, a brother-in-law, and his second wife were executed for reasons still unknown. He freely blended pagan practices with Christian beliefs, leading scholars to suggest his public adoption of Christianity might have been a savvy political move, linking him to a rising social force in the Roman Empire.

Ultimately, whether Constantine was a committed Christian, a shrewd, Christian-friendly politician, or something in between is an open question. Without doubt, he ended centuries of persecution and greatly enhanced the social standing of Christianity. He committed resources to churches and Christian education, and his leadership helped to clarify important Christian doctrines. However, Constantine’s actions resulted in some negative complications. Free from persecution, the church naturally attracted more false converts. The melding of Christian themes with secular politics set a pattern that contributed to later disasters such as the Inquisition and the Crusades. Constantine’s blending of pagan, building-and-priest-centered worship with Christianity also contributed to the rise of Roman Catholicism.

Constantine’s legacy is complex and not wholly understood, but he stands as one of the dominant figures in Christian history. Without doubt, his influence transformed Christianity from a persecuted minority into the eventual state religion of the Roman Empire and the most widespread faith in history.

Tomakint, I could not help notice the contradiction in your posts below.

tomakint:
Trinity is the Doctrine of Man that no place in the Holy Bible.

tomakint:
The bishops at Nicea voted to make the full deity of Christ the accepted position of the church. The Council of Nicea upheld the doctrine of Christ’s true divinity, rejecting Arius’s heresy. The council did not invent this doctrine. Rather, it only recognized what the Bible already taught.

How does the Bible teach what has no place in the Bible?

budaatum:
Tomakint, I could not help notice the contradiction in your posts below.


How does the Bible teach what has no place in the Bible?

God is a confuser, He knows human minds are too frail to understand his thoughts that is why he contradicts himself. The truth about God has many sides and angles my brother.

budaatum:
Tomakint, I could not help notice the contradiction in your posts below.


How does the Bible teach what has no place in the Bible?

Friend you definitely quoted me out of context, my position is anti trinity and anti Nicene creed by Constantine, I maintain already in my many posts here with Bible references that Trinity was never advocated for in the Bible. I decided to bring up that lengthy post on the Trinity here for others to know the origin of trinity and who were the forces behind it (over 40 Bishops chaired by Caesar Constantine the Roman Emperor). I did not contradict myself sir.

TheConfuser:

God is a confuser, He knows human minds are too frail to understand his thoughts that is why he contradicts himself. The truth about God has many sides and angles my brother.

The "I Am that I Am" can be anything it wishes to be syndrome?

I rather think it is the human mind that creates gods in its own image. And since humans don't all have the same images, gods aren't all the same either. And when one image is pitted against the other, they can't but contradict each other.

But tomakint's post was not about confused gods. It was more to do with human beings, I reckon.

tomakint:


Friend you definitely quoted me out of context, my position is anti trinity and anti Nicene creed by Constantine, I maintain already in my many posts here with Bible references that Trinity was never advocated for in the Bible. I decided to bring up that lengthy post on the Trinity here for others to know the origin of trinity and who were the forces behind it (over 40 Bishops chaired by Caesar Constantine the Roman Emperor). I did not contradict myself sir.

I do know your position Tomakint. Regardless, what you posted maintained two opposing positions, one of which contradicts the position you have held all through this thread!

The second post, I am aware, was written from a trinitarian perspective. The phrase 'Arian heresy' gives it away. "Heresy according to whom?" Would be a worthy question of the mindful.

But do note the contradiction mentioned.

budaatum:

The "I Am that I Am" can be anything it wishes to be syndrome?

I rather think it is the human mind that creates gods in its own image. And since humans don't all have the same images, gods aren't all the same either. And when one image is pitted against the other, they can't but contradict each other.

But tomakint's post was not about confused gods. It was more to do with human beings, I reckon.

To be honest with you, This is another seed of discord god has planted in our minds. Jesus himself said in Luke 12:51 that he came to bring division. In Matthew 10:34-36 he repeats this. Besides what was Gods favorite tactic whenever the children of israel were outnumbered by enemies? He threw them into confusion brother Exodus 23:27. As one who grasps this fundamental confusory nature of god, i have made it my mission to make christians, atheists and muslims see the truth: God wants to confuse you because he loves you

TheConfuser:

To be honest with you, This is another seed of discord god has planted in our minds. Jesus himself said in Luke 12:51 that he came to bring division. In Matthew 10:34-36 he repeats this. Besides what was Gods favorite tactic whenever the children of israel were outnumbered by enemies? He threw them into confusion brother Exodus 23:27. As one who grasps this fundamental confusory nature of god, i have made it my mission to make christians, atheists and muslims see the truth: God wants to confuse you because he loves you

My opinion is stated here

budaatum:


My opinion is stated here

Alright.

tomakint:


You folks are just immune to spiritual things I wonder where you folks woke up from and started spewing unfounded hypothesis on the scriptures. How dare you compare God to man, what do you know about God?

I see you conveniently missed the gravity of my point. "And God said let us make man in our own image and likeness "

Now all evidence proves that man is indeed a triune being made up of three distinct entities working hopefully in harmony with each other.

Please answer this, who was God speaking to when he said, "Let us make..............."