Ogbuefi 1: @Physics MHD,

1)On a different court for Ozanogogo does not translate to a different clan nor transfer to Benin kingdom, I will therefore advice you read the remarks without any bias.One of the reasons given by the Ozas was language and distance and this was justified and even supported by many Agbor who simultaneously recommended that such courts should as well be established in the peripheral towns such as Oza, Emuhu and Oki.I was challenge you to provide one single document when all Oza people were together under one Akugbe native authority(not district) of Benin.It was never the case.Igbanke along with other Ika clans were even part of the old Benin district ( except you are saying that all Ika clans should be transferred back to Benin).Who ever gave that account does not even know what he is saying.
Now on the issue of Ikaworld.com, let me put it this way, The claim that the Ika(Anioma) market days are different from Edo market days is wrong and I think the author of that account got it all wrong.The Anioma and Edo people call the market days similarly and ascribe to them different purposes which as well shows some similarities.The author of that may not personally understand why Ozarra came to be where they are at present.Or I would say he would want Ika land to be described as a homogenous unit but this has never been the situation in Aniomaland.Our people are of diversed origin and in some other clans like Ebu and Ugbodu we still hear some other dialects such as Yoruba and Igala.What however unites us is our history , customs/civilization  and identity.There are of course a few voices of dissent but I bet you if a referendum is conducted in Ozarra today, most would want to remain in Agbor and those who would want to join Benin will do so because they want to identify with their Oza Aibiokunla kith and kin and not because they see their lands as part of the domain of the Oba nor do they wholly identify themselves as mainstream Benin People.
If I should follow , your line of arguement then I will be like many Anioma people be willing to give up Ozarra in replacement of Igbanke, and other Ika communities in Beninlands like Iru, Igbogiri and Owa Iriuzor(renamed Evbo Obanosa).

1. "Transfer to Benin Kingdom"?

I have seen their personal names, the names of the different quarters of Oza nogogo, the names for priests, the names of people in their history, etc. and it is all Bini. All of it. I'm willing to bet that if I heard them speaking I would hear mostly Edo (though obviously somewhat different), with some Igbo spliced in here and there. Now, who is talking about a transfer to Benin kingdom? Some Bini places like Egor have traditional rulers that claim to be their own kingdoms and not truly under the Oba of Benin, so how does me stating that the Oza-nogogo are Edo, and not Ika, and are only under Agbor through colonial poltics equate to claiming that they should be "transferred to Benin kingdom"? I said that going by your argument in this thread that Igbanke should be transferred to Anioma and that they are being held against their will chiefly through the moves of the Benin Palace, then they (Oza nogogo) should be in Edo state because they are in fact an Edo group, no matter how many Oza nogogo titles you try to connect to Agbor.You keep talking about the "domain of the Oba" and "mainstream" Benin people, but that's not even connected to this discussion, and you have yet to explain why the domain of the Agbor kingdom should extend into Oza nogogo when the Ika people of Agbor and the Edo people of Oza nogogo are ethnically different even though that is your entire argument for your accusation against the Benin palace not being able to claim the Igbanke as being Edo.


2. You talk about voting to stay under Agbor kingdom, but I have provided at least two sources, in an earlier post in which actual people from Oza nogogo listed specific grievances that they had against their neighbors and the way they feel that they have been treated all those years. I asked for clarification from anybody about whether these claims of marginalization were in any way reasonable, but you dodged that question like a trained politician although you clearly read that post. Nobody has been able to answer whether the accusations of some Oza nogogo people about marginalization are indeed true, despite all the time that has elapsed since I first posted that claim. Meanwhile, all this time people were talking about deliberate marginalization of Igbanke or Ekpon without ever stating what they thought this marginalization really was. Maybe instead of claiming that the Oza nogogo people are so naturally desirous to be under Agbor kingdom, you should tell your leaders, elected officials, government, etc., to refute those accusations that are incorrect and to meet the needs of their community and address those accusations that are correct. The best you could do was to claim that they want some minerals, yet there was no complaint about resource control from them, rather they were concerned about development in their community. There are not that many Oza nogogo websites online, nor are there many books or articles about this group. If in every statement, one reads some sort of grumbling against their Ika neighbors over alleged marginalization, then how am I supposed to believe this claim about some sort of overwhelming desire to be part of Agbor?


3. As for ikaworld.com I do not care about any comments about market days. I know that the Edo market days and the Igbo market days are the same. I posted that to show that even other Ika people were reasonable enough to see that a group that shows such clear signs of "Bininess" are of Edo origin without engaging in irrelevant claims about some Ogisi title (which even sounds like it has an Edoid origin, by the way, but that's another topic entirely). My point is that some of your own people are not necessarily agreeing with you, perhaps because they are not expansionists.

4. Why do you insist on calling Oza nogogo by the name Ozarra?

5. What is all this talk about heterogeneity?

Your very argument hinges on the claim that the ethnic difference between Igbanke and Binis means that Igbanke should not be part of Benin kingdom but should be with their kith and kin!

Meanwhile you somehow don't see why the Oza nogogo people should not be under Agbor, which is not composed of their kith and kin.


6. I am following your line of argument, by the way. It's just that you seem unwilling (for whatever reason) to extend your reasoning to its logical conclusion - that every Edo speaking community (not just Oza nogogo) in Anioma should be "transferred" to Edo state. You also mentioned the Edo speaking community of Alilehan in one of you posts that did not show and you claimed that "Ali" was an Igbo prefix meaning "land of". Yet you could not translate the rest. Why is that? Maybe because the name is like Greek to you? For the record "Ala" rather than "Ali" seems to be the Igbo prefix meaning "land of" and Alilehan is undoubtedly Edo. Alile is an Edo word for a very strong cord found in the forest that cannot be cut - that is the literal meaning but the real meaning is a person (or community, in this instance) with very strong character. But I think that name (Alilehan) matches up better and more perfectly with the Bini name Aileleihan, meaning one who refuses to take the wrong way. It's a shame that you want to claim these communities for the Ika but you and other Ika are completely confused by even their names. Yes I would have no problem with doing an exchange of communities if it would stop all this propaganda but I know that that is not necessarily feasible.


7. I did not continue that Ekpon debate with you after my response didn't show up, but for the record, I have looked around and Esan people are still definitely claiming Ekpon in every publication from Esan people that lists the Esan subgroups.

I have to ask, do Esan people have any idea what Ika culture is, social aspects or otherwise, for them to be able to tell that this is a separate group, not a subgroup of their people?

The truth is that from sources that I have read, the Esan considered Ekpon to be just another branch of the Esan, so if this makes them expansionists, then they've been misled by the cultural adoption frmo that group (Ekpon). It does not mean that they're trying to steal Ekpon from a group whose culture they are not experts on.

They would assume the Ekpon were Esan for the exact same reasons that you can tell that they aren't Esan but rather Ika:  language and culture.

This is an interesting post on some Ekpon man (who, for whatever reason, called himself Idemudia) and because of how he had presented himself, even an Igbo man (Chxta) originally thought he was Bini! :

http://chxta..com/2009/02/death-of-language.html


You say "the old Esan dialect is practically dead" (and that article written by that Ekpon guy in that link above confirms this claim) and that "Ekpon has become more Ikanized"

How on earth is it the fault of the Esan if they considered a language (the old Ekpon language that is near death) that could be considered a dialect of Esan to be evidence that these people (Ekpon) were an Esan speaking people?!!

Or were the Esan supposed to identify every cultural and linguistic aspect of Ekpon that was different as Ika (a culture and language they are not experts on), when, even within Esan, there are different dialects?

Any sort of propaganda that leads to some conclusion like "the Esan are oppressive expansionists" needs to be reworked immediately.

If these people are serious about being Igbo, they will just learn Igbo (real Igbo), stop using Edo or Esan words, customs, names, etc. and nobody will confuse them with anybody else. You cannot be in limbo between two ethnic groups, culturally and then declare that you are really only based in one group.


Also, this same dispute exists in Rivers state with some group that is considered by some Ijaws to be a group of Ijaw people with Igbo influence being called Igbo by Igbos, because of such enormously prevalent signs of Igbo culture and language among them. So the case of Edos identifying people with Edo culture as Edo is not unique to so called Bini or Esan expansionists. Whether those groups in Rivers state are Ijaw with Igbo influence or Igbo with Ijaw influence is a whole other issue (it seems that they're a basically a real ethinc mix, from what I've read), but either the Igbo or the Ijaw would be engaged in "annexation" attempts according to you, just because they rightly see elements of their own language and culture in those groups.

Ogbuefi 1: As far I am concerned this claim is no different from the baseless claims Benins are making on Ijaw teritories in the Ovia area which led to the faceoff by the Oba and the Alli administration in 1983.

I left off answering this Ijaw claim earlier, because I really don't have enough time to delve really deeply into this issue. But I will respond to your earlier claim now.

You said:

3) I have read the case between the Ijaws of Gelegele and Benins of Ughoton on what is called Gelegele land in the courts.Where are the Benin occupiers of Gelegele ? Because it is clearly an Ijaw settlemnt and the issue in court was the ownership of the land on which the settlement was founded and not on those who reside there ? In the lower courts the Ijaws won until they got to the court of Appeal and Supreme Court when decision went in favour of the Benin.The Ijaws said that the decisions were manipulated because one of the judges (a native of Benin convinced his colleagues to make decision to favour his people).Yet dispite this victory, is Gelegele the only Ijaw town in Edo state ? Have the Benin gone to court to prove if those villages are actually theirs ? In a display of the expansionist nature of Benin traditional leadership, they got the area named OBAYANTOR and appointed Prince Edun Akenzua , the "Enogie of Obayantor" .The said Obayantor distinct from the one we know along Sapele road was extended to include all Ijaw villages besides Gelegele.These include Ofunama, Ikoro, Safarogbo, Ajakurama. Nikorogha, Jamagie, Okomu and several others covering 3 wards in Ova SW and Oduna ward In Ovia NE.Yet until recently , there were not even treated as natives of Edo State until recently.

1. There are Binis in Gelegele. It has never ever been an entirely Ijaw area. In fact, there have always been Bini odionweres in Gelegele. If some Ijaws claim it was an Ijaw settlement, let them tell us when they founded it and also tell us when the Binis got there. It is interesting to note that no Ijaw historian has ever recorded any Ijaw oral history about Gelegele, despite there being oral histories for the other settlements and villages of the Olodiama clan and Egbema clan of the Ijaws.

2. Gelegele was actually called called Gelegelegbini/Gelegelegbene by the Ijaw (see Izon of the Niger Delta, chapter 18, by Alagoa, Kowei, etc.)). "Bini" is the Ijaw word for water. If they founded it, why did they need to qualify it, with the fact that they were referring to only the part of it that was relevant to them? They got there later and named the part that was relevant to them.


3. Gelegele was even originally under the management of the Ezomo of Benin:

"THE OBA'S central province was bound by the rivers

OYISA, OKWO, OVIA, OLUKUN, AWREHOMO, and IKPOBA. From the city through this province to six outlying districts or provinces, six great roads led, and these roads and districts were under the following chiefs:-

Gilly-Gilly under Ezomo.

Udo under OLIHA.

Shelu under ERO.

Geduma under OGIFA.

Sapoba under CIGIAML

Sapelli under ELEMA.

The neutral (or ambassador's province) under ELAUWEY was bounded by the rivers OFUSU, OHA, and upper OVIA or OSSE, with its capital at OKENUE or OKELUSE. When they reached this place ELAUWEY told Bini to go on to OGIFA'S place and that he would follow in five days (but he stayed there and formed the province as a kind of buffer province between the Yoruba and Bini Kingdoms)." - At the Back of the Black Man's Mind, CHAPTER XVIII, BENIN DISTRICTS,  by Richard Edward Dennett, [1906]

("CIGIAML" is erroneous and should read OGIAME (Ogiamien), for the record; there are a few other spelling errors (such as that of the Elawure of Usen, which he calls "Elauwey", but it is clear, to those who are not neophytes, who the people are that are being referred to here are.)
.
Of course, some people would have us believe that the Benin kingdom arbitrarily named one of the major roads, and the major province of the kingdom that it led to (from the capital), after one small  Ijaw village.

Now the Ijaws that moved there did not make a new name for it, just as they have not for Siluko, or Okomu, so I would be very interested in hearing how they can be the founders of that place.

Of course now some people will say that the "Amaokusuwei" of Gelegele, is the Ijaw ruler of the area when this is a modern thing. Amaokusuwei or Amakosuwai is just the oldest man of an Ijaw village (http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/prime/nigeria/11028134409.htm) and is no higher than an odionwere. There was never any Ijaw ruler of the area. Historically, the entire area was under a war chief of Benin and he was a subject of the Oba of Benin. The presence of Ijaws there does not mean that an Amaokusuwei or an unheard of Pere should emerge suddenly claiming that their settlement on the Ezomo's province is an Ijaw kingdom.

Now if I had found out that Gelegele was Biniland from a simple search, would the Palace not have already known that this area was Biniland?

http://allafrica.com/stories/200607170612.html

http://odili.net/news/source/2011/may/3/301.html

^^^^^
The characterization of it as an attempted "takeover" is accurate, in my opinion.



4. The issue is not so much whether the entire area is majority Ijaw or majority Bini. The issue is whether a group can establish a new, unheard-of kingdom in a village in that area, right in the face of the Binis there simply because of their numbers. One of the reasons that this is an issue is that the Binis know that if the claims are not nipped in the bud, tommorrow a few Ijaws will actually be shouting that Gelegele is ancient Ijawland, when it is not - there are are traditions of Ijaw migration to areas in Edo state during or right before the 17th century for some Ijaw villages in Edo state, but there is nothing to suggest any Ijaw founding of Gelegele (to them, Gelegelebini).

With regard to founding Ijaw kingdoms where none existed, and elevating the Pere of a small village to the status of a king, or claiming that separate villages are suddenly part of some unheard of kingdom after the Benin kingdom has been more or less manacled by colonization, I would say that this is a classic case of taking a mile after being given an inch.


5. Let us look at what actual Ijaw historians (not politicians) have to say on Ijaw migrations to places which some of them are claiming to be indigenous to. While today some politicians will state that they have been there for eight centuries


On the Egbema clan:

"The Egbema people are the most likely Ijo sub-group to which the allegation of Ijo piracy on the Benin River could have been made. The only other sub-group with access to the Benin River are the Gbaramatu. Egbema traditions, in fact, give indirect evidence of their predatory activities in
the region of the Benin River. While they refer to the Oba of Benin as Ugbo
Pere (Lord of the Lands), the priest king of Egbema was Bini Pere (Lord of the Waters)." -E. J. Alagoa, E. A. Kowei, B. J. Owei and J. B. Dunu, The Izon of the Niger Delta, Chapter 18 - THE WESTERN DELTA LIMIT


Now let's stop and look at this honestly. Was the priest king of the Egbema comparable in stature to the Oba of Benin? No. We know that the Binis regarded the large waters as sacred and as the passage to the spirit world, so of course they would not become a marine empire, but it is very telling that even the Egbema traditions do not claim that the Ijaw mariners were lords of any lands in the Edo area.



On the city of Ikoro:

"Chronology

The genealogy of the informant going back to the founding ancestor, Perezigha, offers some basis for an estimate of Olodiama settlement in their present location. Calculating at thirty years to a generation, it would appear that Perezigha and his group arrived in the area late in the seventeenth century.

Benin traditions suggest, however, that Ikoro had been founded in or before the sixteenth century. It is related how Oba Orhogbua (c.1550-78) had stopped at Ikoro, on his way home from a campaign in Lagos, to enquire about rumours of a revolt in Benin while he was away (Egharevba 1960:30)." - E. J. Alagoa, E. A. Kowei, B. J. Owei and J. B. Dunu, The Izon of the Niger Delta, Chapter 18 - THE WESTERN DELTA LIMIT, p. 418




6.Are you actually telling me that if a Yoruba, Igala, Idoma, or Jukun group migrates to some other state and happens to take up residence somewhere like a creek or hard to reach swamp, they can elevate their village chief or elder to a traditional ruler of a kingdom a century or more later, and, with a few settlements, demand 4 LGAs in the state? Answer honestly.


7. You did not mention this, but I might as well note, before anyone else brings this up, that this is not about oil. It should be noted that there is actually much much more oil in the areas of Edo state where there is no trace of an Ijaw presence, than in the areas where there are any Ijaws. It is merely that what is being tapped is from certain areas right now. So the Binis could not be accused of fighting for oil as some people (not you) have already insinuated.  If anything, it seems like some Ijaws (particularly those at Gele Gele) are fighting for control of oil or other resources at areas where it is doubtful that they are truly indigenous. We have already read the reports on attacks and kidnapping against oil companies there.


8. First - The claims about what happened in the court room are unsubstantiated. The claim about somebody saying that the Oba of Benin owns all the land up to the territory of the white man is unsubstantiated and they have yet to say who (a name) said this. They just mention that some unnamed Bini person in the courtroom said this, but they weren't naive enough to specifically say that anybody who was relevant to deciding the case said this, because they know that the names of the judges can be found out.

Second - the Binis won in multiple higher courts, so are they claiming there was a Bini judge at each court? Let them prove it then. The names of the judges in those cases are not kept from the public record.

Third - And just how did this allegedly Bini judge convince all the other judges? Money? Or by repeating some Bini saying (about the Oba of Benin owning so much land) that other ethnic groups would not necessarily be familiar with or might not care about?

Fourth - What specifically is being alleged here and about which man or woman (what's the name of the so called Bini judge?) Why do the people pushing those claims about Gelegele - a place thatwas not Ijaw founded - think they can refute a Supreme Court ruling with vague allegations?

9. Prince Edun Akenzua is not the Enogie of Obayanto. Prince Uyiekpen Akenzua is the Enogie of Obayantor. That Obayantor move seemed like consolidation of territory, brought about entirely by the overreaching nature of some of the Ijaw claims. Some Ijaws take an extreme stance. Annoyed Binis take an extreme stance to counter it.  If the Benin palace was so interested in expansion, this could have been done much earlier than it was. Clearly, some Ijaws forced their hand.

I'm no insider, but the moves taken by the palace seem like counter consolidation. An odionwere is not a high ranking chief, but a community's head elder, so the presence of a Bini odionwere will be brushed aside by those attempting to claim to be the traditional ruler of an area that they are not. Consequently, someone of a higher rank would need to be installed to checkmate the unfounded claims about an Ijaw kingdom in the area. This is the obvious rationale for the moves made by the Benin palace.

10. While I still feel (personally) that they should not be under a Benin chief, I have to point out that there is nothing like a real Ijaw "area" in Edo state. Rather, there are some separate Ijaw villages interspersed in between Edo villages in certain areas. This reality precludes carving away some area into an LGA, and it is the reason for all this dispute. It's an either-or situation. Either the Binis lose land, or the Ijaws lose their claim to LGA.

Let's look at some of the areas they are claiming:

"Meanwhile, Journalists for Niger Delta (JODEL), a media group concerned with the
affairs of the oil and gas region, who are on  tour with the presidential panel reports
that the area the militants are demanding for the four council areas for the Ijaw people
comprises a network of creeks with swamp forests with intermittent land areas in
Okomu, Ofunama, Ajakurama, Gelegele, Opuama /Polobobar, Ogbinbiri / Ogbudugbudu,
and Safarogbo forest areas."

http://akanimosam..com/2010/02/give-us-new-councils-in-delta-edo-by.html

Some people are claiming the creek and swamp areas and then demanding that these portions of other LGAs become new LGAs:

"According to him, ''we are pressing our people's governor, Adams Oshiomhole to make a case for us at Abuja, why a minimum of five local government areas should be created for us. The five council areas we are asking for are: Egbema North-East with headquarters at Ofunama, Egbema North-West with Ajakurama as its headquarters, Olodiama with headquarters at Inikorogha, Okomu/ Safarogbo with headquarters at Okomu, and Furupagha with Jide as its headquarters''.


Our correspondent who was in the area to cover the historic visit by Governor Oshiomhole, however, reports that there are no motorable roads linking the largely riverine Ijaw communities with the rest of Edo state."

http://www.pointblanknews.com/os1377.html


Now let's look through the two LGAs of Edo state where Ijaws are found:

"OVIA SOUTH WEST LOCAL GOVERNMENT 1073. IGUOBA- 1074. ZUWA 1075. Abozumamwen 1076. Ago-Okunzuwa 1077. Aifesoba 1078. Evboba 1079. Iguatakpa 1080. Iguobazuwa 1081. Iguogun 1082. Isokponba 1083. Obaretin 1084. Okokpon 1085. Okoro 1086. ORA 1087. Ameienghowan 1088. Evbuogun 1089. Iguiyase 1090. Iguoriakhi 1091. Iguoriakhi Upland 1092. Iguoriakhi Water Side 1093. Ikpoba 1094. Osse 1095. UDO 1096. Eko-Eyuyu 1097. Etete 1098. Iguafole 1099. Igueze 1100. Iguokolor 1101. Iguowan 1102. Okomu Oil 1103. Okosa 1104. Udo 1105. Udo-Aken 1106. Ugolo 1107. Urhezen 1108. UMAZA 1109. Akpororo Camp 1110. Essi 1111. Iguekahen 1112. Iguelaho 1113. Lakalolo 1114. Obobaifo 1115. Ogunwake 1116. Camps 1117. Ojomu 1118. Sayo 1119. Ugbokua 1120. Umaza 1121. SILUKO 1122. Gbelebu 1123. Gbelemonten Water Side 1124. Gebelemonten Upland 1125. Iguagbado 1126. Jide Inland 1127. Jide Upland 1128. Kale Camp 1129. Kehide Camp 1130. Lawson Camp 1131. Madagbayo 1132. Madoti 1133. Ofineyege 1134. Okadeye 1135. Okomu-Ijaw 1136. Okua 1137. Saforogbo 1138. Ubayaki 1139. Ugbe-Sango 1140. Ugbokua 1141. UGBOGUE 1142. Adebayo Camp 1143. Aden 1144. Agbonokhua (Ikale Camp) 1145. Akrakuan 1146. Ekuremu Camp 1147. Evbonogbon 1148. Iguobanor 1149. Ikoha 1150. Jamijie 1151. Nikrowa 1152. Ofunmwengbe 1153. Okponha 1154. Osa Village 1155. Osedere 1156. Sakazioo 1157. Sule Camp 1158. Ugbo 1159. Ugbogui I 1160. USEN 1161. Aideyanba 1162. Iguedo 1163. Leleji 1164. Obomen Camp 1165. Ofaran Camp 1166. Ogidigbo 1167. Ogunmwenyin 1168. Okha 1169. Okhue Camp 1170. Okoro I 1171. Oladaro 1172. Olorin 1173. Usen 1174. NIKORO-GHA 1175. Adegayo Camp 1176. Ekuremu Camp 1177. Ikoha 1178. Sule Camp 1179. OFUNAMA 1180. Abere 1181. Ajakurama 1182. Ajatitition 1183. Binidogha 1184. Ekogben W.N. 1185. Gbelekanga 1186. Gbeoba 1187. Gbolowosho 1188. Isabemwen 1189. Itagbene 1190. Lagos Junction 1191. Ofunama 1192. Saleria 1193. Turukubu W.N. 1194. Zion. "


"OVIA NORTH-EAST LOCAL GOVERNMENT 949. OKADA 950. Abrifor Camp 951. Egbeteti 952. Egboha 953. Ekenomeghele 954. Guobadia Camp 955. Half Way 956. Igbogo 957. Igueze 958. Igunye 959. Iguobo 960. Iguomo 961. Isiuwa 962. Iyanomo 963. Iyeta 964. Ofumwgbe Camp 965. Oghobahon 966. Okoro 967. Omamini Camp 968. Oseminota Camp 969. Oyibo Camp 970. Ugbodun 971. Ugbokun 972. Ulakpa 973. UHEN 974. Aghanokpe 975. Egbeta 976. Egekpanu 977. Gberao 978. Ogbese 979. Okeodo 980. Olumoye 981. Ugbodo Camp 982. Ugbuwe 983. Uhen 984. Utese 985. KOKHUO 986. Abumwenre 987. Emeh 988. Okokhuo 989. Okunuvbe 990. Ugbokuli 991. OFUNM- 992. WENGBE 993. Agorise 994. Igezomo 995. Igulye 996. Iguosagie 997. Iwu 998. Izakagbo 999. Ofumwege 1000. Ogua 1001. Eko Ekpetin 1002. Idumwengie 1003. Igbanikaka 1004. Igbehkue 1005. Obarenren 1006. Odighi 1007. Odiguetue 1008. Okhuo Camp 1009. Osasimwinoba 1010. Owan 1011. Ugboke 1012. Uhiere 1013. ISIUWA 1014. Evboneka 1015. Iyowa 1016. Nifor 1017. Okhuen Camp 1018. Ugbogiobo 1019. Ukpoke 1020. ADOLOR 1021. Ekiadolor 1022. Iguodia 1023. Isiukhukhu 1024. Ora 1025. Ovbogie 1026. OLUKU 1027. Egbaen 1028. Iguosa 1029. Okhumwun 1030. Oluku 1031. Olefure 1032. Uhogua 1033. Utekon 1034. IGUOSHODIN 1035. Ayedi 1036. Iguadolo 1037. Iguoshodin 1038. Iguosogban 1039. Ogheghe 1040. Ojogbede 1041. Okakegbe 1042. Okhuninwun Camp 1043. Umuame 1044. Agbaje 1045. Iguogie 1046. Ite 1047. Nigbemagba 1048. Ovah 1049. Utoka 1050. Adama 1051. Agivbigie 1052. Army Barracks 1053. Egbaen 1054. Evbolekpen 1055. Evboro 1056. Igbobi 1057. Igo 1058. Ikoro 1059. Obazuwa 1060. Oghede 1061. Abiala 1062. Egbaton 1063. Ekehuan 1064. Gelegele 1065. Ibaro 1066. Igbobi 1067. Ikpako 1068. Mikotowa 1069. Oduna 1070. Orogo 1071. Ugbine 1072. Ughoton"


Take a good look at the number of settlements listed there for each LGA and compare with the number of places with Ijaws in Edo state:

Abere
Ayakoroma
Gbelebu
Gelegelegbene
Ikoro
Ikusangha
Inekorogha
Ingileuba
Ofoniama
Polobubo
Siluko
Ukomu
Zide

www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WaRKT25JIeEJ:www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

[Note: the place they are calling Gelegelegbene is Gele Gele, "Inekorogha" = Nikorogha, "Ukomu" = Okomu, etc.]

After looking at this list of how the present two LGAs where are composed, what would any reasonable person reach about the claim that a few non-Bini villages and creeks should constitute four LGAs or even a single LGA? I have seen the lists for the other LGAs in Edo state and they all have a comparable number of cities and villages. The same cannot be said for any proposed Ijaw LGA.




11. The notion that this dispute is due to any personal anti-Ijaw crusade or expansionist movement by Omo N'Oba Erediauwa, is another piece of propaganda.

From what I have read, the dispute arose between actual Binis and Ijaws in the area several decades ago and the Binis there appealed to the Oba. The new Okao of Gelegele (Chief Joseph Iyonmahan) has been fighting their claims since before Omo n'Oba Erediauwa was the Oba of Benin.


12. So Okomu is an Ijaw village now? Well, the Okomu area, with a name derived from a Benin word, is majority Bini (60%). An Ijaw settlement/village named after the Okomu reserve (which is called Okomu-Ijaw, by the way, not Okomu) in Edo state is far from supporting evidence for some of the overreaching claims. There is certainly nothing like an Ijaw Okomu clan or kingdom. Some Ijaws now want to carve away part of Okomu into a new Ijaw dominated LGA and associate it with Olodiama, a certain Ijaw clan with settlements in Okomu. Some have even moved on from calling it Okomu-Ijaw to calling the settlement "Ukomu":

http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm

www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WaRKT25JIeEJ:www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

13. On that same site it claims there is an Ijaw community at a place named "Siluko." There wasn't any attempt at modification there. Nobody will be silly enough to claim that there is anything like an original Ijaw settlement named "Siluko". There's no possible ambiguity about that being Bini. Besides, the settlement was actually started by the colonial traders, not Ijaws.

14.

"Study Sites

Okomu Forest Reserve
It is situated between longitudes 5o - 5o 30’ E and latitudes 6o N’ - 6o 10’N.
It is located in Ovia South-West LGA of Edo State and about 40km west of
Benin City. It lies between Rivers Osse and Siluko to the East and West
respectively. The reserve derived its name from River Okomu from the Benin
word ‘Akomu’ meaning unity. The reserve was named Okomu during the
colonial constitution of the reserve. Some of the villages/settlements within
and around the forest reserve are Nikrowa, Ofunama, Udo, Okomu,
Iguohuan, Arakhuan, Iguelaho, Iguagbado, Igueze, Urhezen, Iguafole,
Iguokakhan, Odobaiho, Izide-Noke, Izide and Namen. The Benins’ are the
original landowners and still form 60% of the population but there are other
groups of settlers like Ijaw, Urhobo, Esan within and around the reserve.

Sakpoba Forest Reserve
Sakpoba Forest Reserve lies between latitudes 4o - 4o 30’ and longitudes 6o
- 6o 5’E. It is bounded on the south by Delta State, on the East by Urhonigbe
Forest Reserve and on the West by Free Area, B.C. 30. It is located in
Orhionmwon Local Government Area, about 30 kilometres South-East of
Benin City. Some of the major villages located within and around the reserve
are Ugo, Ikobi, Oben, Iguelaba and Amaladi in Area B.C 32/4, and Ugboko-
Niro, Iguere, Idunmwowina, Evbarhue, Idu, Evbueka, Iguomokhua, Ona,
Abe, Igbakele, Adeyanba, Evbuosa in Area B.C 29. The Benins are the original
landowners and still form 80% of the population living within and around the
forest reserve. There are other ethnic groups such as Urhobo, Itsekiri and
Esan.

Ehor Forest Reserve
Ehor Forest Reserve lies between latitudes 6o - 6o 32’ and longitudes 5o 58’
- 5o 7’ E. It is bounded on the North and North West by Owan (S & N) Forest
Reserves, on the East by Free Areas BC 13/2, 16/2 on the South by free areas
B.C 21/2, 16/2, 21/1 and on the West by Ekiadolor Forest and Owan (S)
Forest Reserves. It is located in Uhunmwode Local Government Area, about
40 kilometres from Benin City along Benin Auchi road. Some major villages
located within and around the forest reserves are Odighi, Osasimwioba
Igbekhue, Egba, Urhokuosa Ugha, Obagie. Ehor, Oke, Okemuen, Osazuwa,
Eguaholor, Ohe, Egbisi, Evbowe, Igieghudu and Uhi. It derives its name from
Ehor being the major town then and now the headquarters of Uhunmwode
Local Government Area. The Benins are the predominant tribe that forms
more than 75% of the population. The other ethnic groups are Esan, Igbanke
and Ibo."

www.ijsf.org/dat/art/vol03/ijsf_vol3_no2_05_azeez_land_use_nigeria.pdf+okomu+benin&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiS0Eq0dl94qZwDVXrdk8goBDxWd9aVGpcYvHqKkV5xTP0WeScDvy_384_rR_gg1JV3lVAHqbK-kfrV3KtROI-HDuU1HTkI4p3gQfpTBTHdshN8GSOvc5oRnPx6uAnwn8NEmvJ5&sig=AHIEtbTsmdMfGTOGAZYPFS7nENIo_ZCL8g">http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jWQsc3GFaJ4J:www.ijsf.org/dat/art/vol03/ijsf_vol3_no2_05_azeez_land_use_nigeria.pdf+okomu+benin&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiS0Eq0dl94qZwDVXrdk8goBDxWd9aVGpcYvHqKkV5xTP0WeScDvy_384_rR_gg1JV3lVAHqbK-kfrV3KtROI-HDuU1HTkI4p3gQfpTBTHdshN8GSOvc5oRnPx6uAnwn8NEmvJ5&sig=AHIEtbTsmdMfGTOGAZYPFS7nENIo_ZCL8g

www.ijsf.org/dat/art/vol03/ijsf_vol3_no2_05_azeez_land_use_nigeria.pdf

International Journal of Social Forestry, Volume 3, Number 2, December 2010: 164-187

^^^^^

The only relevant questions are:

a) Why are the Urhobo, Itsekiri, and Esan not agitating for an LGA in Sakponba?

b). Are Ijaw illegal timber fellers that moved into the forest areas for economic reasons in the very early 20th century really deserving of being part of an LGA? :

"Initially, Benin Chiefs had protested the influx of migrants into Benin forest and demanded their expulsion in 1897/8. 26 . . .Seeing that their earlier request to stop the migration from Urhobo and Itsekiri into Benin land was not acted upon, the chiefs seized the opportunity of the visit and meeting with Hon. F.S. James, the Lieutenant Governor of Southern Nigeria in 1913 to again state their opposition to the influx of Itsekiri and Urhobo and requested its stoppage. 27 The administration still did not take any action against this influx because it was largely beneficial to British economic interests. Benin communities gradually lost effective control over their forestland which was being virtually taken over by migrants and settlers. . .While other migrants like the Itsekiri restricted themselves to the waterside trade, Yorubas to Cocoa farming around Ogbesse, and Ijaws engaged in illegal timber felling. . ." - Peter Ekeh, History of the Urhobo people of Niger Delta, p. 488

Are these the people you are claiming are "founders" of Ijaw settlements? Okomu Ijaws are not founders of anything. They moved there after 1897.


15. Should a few villages spread out among the many Edo places really get their three or four LGAs?

If they are actually given 3 or 4 LGAs, then it's almost certainly the case that the next Bini governor will try to triple the number of LGAs of the Binis, Esan, and Afemai, just to counter the ludicrous excess of giving the Ijaws three LGAs. Then the government will really be bloated and costly. Even if they get one LGA, you can expect every other group in the state to get one or two more.



16. You seem to have a very poor understanding of what happened after 1897 and that is why you bought all of those claims too easily, without doing much investigation for yourself. The truth is that some other groups swooped in like hawks to take economic advantage of certain areas after the fall of Benin. I would refer you to p. 487 - 494 of Peter Ekeh's History of the Urhobo people of Niger Delta (where he discusses not only Urhobo involvement in this encroaching and settling on Benin lands, but that of other Niger Delta groups) and to the article "Migrating Out of Reach: Fugitive Benin Communities in Colonial Nigeria, 1897-1934" by Uyilawa Usuanlele and Victor Osaro Edo for more on the real origin of some of these multi ethnic areas in the Bini areas in Edo state.

2)On the issue of Idu , I only said that it is even a more ancient name for the Benins and it reflects in some names.Of course you agreed with me when you said that in an account Idu is seen as the name of the ancestor of the Benin , a reminder of its ancient origin.This name also attests to the antiquity of the earliest ancestors of Aniomalands.Because we have never had another name for the Benin people.For the Esan, we call them Ishan, a name which got stuck with the colonialists.It is also quite possible that the original meaning of IDU changed as the Edo nation began to acquire newer names like Edo which is now known today and the result is tht the definition of IDU only became wider.

You must be kidding. You did not even know the meaning of Idu in those names and you were here telling me that Idu was an ancient and original name for the people when it was something else entirely that came to be used as referring to the Edo people much later and in only a few of the names it is used in. The Edo were not under the impression that Idu meant the Edo people because they knew very well what it meant and that is why in common everyday speech that word is not used for the people by anyone and it is also why in the overwhelming majority of Bini names the word Idu does not refer to the Edo people. It is only in a few names that Idu has been interpreted as just being a version of Edo, possibly by those who don't know about the supposed ancestor (Idu) of the Edo and are thus unaware that it is in no way a variation of Edo. Your argument was untenable. The Urhobos call the Edo people Aka, and the Urhobos have even more ancient connections to the Edo - from pre-Ogiso times to Ogiso times to beyond - than any Anioma group. For all we know, before this "Idu" fellow supposedly birthed the Edo group, there could have been an even older ancestor (Aka) who inspired the Urhobos to call the Edo by the name Aka. So the habit of some group to call the Edos by the name of some supposed famous ancestor does not give that particular name (Idu) any primacy or any more correctness as an ethnic demonym.

As for "Ado" that was used by the Yoruba, are you claiming that the Yorubas only had a name for the Edo in the 15th century  (the time of Oba Ewuare, when he supposedly named the kingdom and its people Edo?)? Do you have anything to back up this claim? Does this even sound rational to you? Did the Yoruba have no interaction with the Edo prior to the 15th century? The great Chief Egharevba that you are relying on for this Edo "slave" story says that the Edo originally lived in Ife for a while, in the very same edition of A Short History in which he introduced the story about the "slave" Edo saving Oba Ewuare's life. Yet you believe the Yorubas had to wait until Oba Ewuare proclaimed the name of the people to be Edo, (in order to have a variation on that name (Ado))? I would easily wager that the Edo were always known as Ado to the Yoruba just as they were always known as Idu (called by the name of their ancestor) to the Igbo, or always known as Aka to the Urhobo despite the fact that none of these names are the real name for the Edo people. I told you that I never believed that Ewuare renamed the city for even a minute. In other sources you read very clearly and with no ambiguity that Oba Eweka renamed the kingdom from Igodomigodo to Edo, in some sources you read that Oba Ewuare renamed the kingdom to Edo. The point of this is that, given Egharevba's tendency to attribute a huge number of innovations to Oba Ewuare (although it is true that Oba Ewuare is usually considered the greatest innovator and the most significant Oba), as some studies have shown, and given the lack of logic in claiming that the Yorubas had to wait until the 15th century to develop a variation on a name (Edo) for a group of people that some Yorubas had been interacting with for centuries prior to this, I am not convinced at all about this 15th century claim.

3)Good, for correcting yourself on the history of the moats and I know it was done deliberately because you think the person you are debating with is a neophyte in matters like  this, The moats from your diagram was done only in Benin City as an Edo man, you ought to know that Benin was not the only town in the Benin Kingdom tht had moats.Udo had moats, Ugo had moats as well.The reason I think for the western fortification of the city is apparently to defend the town from Udo and this could have been the reason Udo people did theirs.But what of the Ugo axis ? Or is that not in the Eastern section of Benin lands.The entire network of the Benin moats have been defined in many publications and in many of these accounts it was noted that it could (especially on those on the eastern periphery) as a result of Igbo Expasion towards the west ie Benin.There is even an account amongst Anioma people that the town of Urhonigbe was actually founded by Benin warriors stationed on the site by the Oba to keep the city safe from invaders from the East and this explains for its unusually large size for a Benin settlement.

1. Done deliberately? What is the difference between me saying 7th century and 8th century in regard to Ubulu-Uku and Agbor? Two kingdoms which Benin had no idea of were the motivation for moats? If I had remembered that it was 8th rather than 7th century originally it would have made no difference to my argument that the moats preceded any knowledge of those kingdoms or even the founding dates for those kingdoms according to Agbor and Ubulu-uku historians themselves.

Let's discuss this moats issue seriously, rather than engaging in baseless conjecture about imagined expansion or attacks from kingdoms which did not exist (Agbor and Ubulu-Uku) and whose founders had not even arrived at the time the moats were first built.


2. You have explicitly claimed that people say that Ubulu-Uku was just starting up in the 10th century (900 AD) in your response to exotik:

"However not all Anioma people are of assimilated stock.Most were of Eastern Igbo origin and this group were the earliest to settle on the land(at Ubulu Uku c900 AD)."


The earliest moats at the eastern part of the Edo speaking area (at Ekhor n'Iro) are from the 8th century (circa 700 AD). The iya in Ekhor cannot be for defense against a nonexistent threat.

I would like to think that you know the difference between 8th century and 10th century. You claim people only even arrived in the 10th century and historians of those kingdoms do not give an earlier founding date (I have checked), but you are here are simultaneously trying to claim that they inspired moat building in the eastern Edo area that preceded their arrival by two centuries? Are you deliberately trying to mislead people? Unfortunately for you, I am not a neophyte on the issue of the Benin iya.

3. I would like to think that you can connect the dots and do not need to be spoonfed facts that should be obvious. If a kingdom considers any other kingdom, state, etc. to be a threat, they will not leave their most important settlement (that containing the Ogiso's palace or the Oba's palace) unguarded from the direction from which that threat lies. That was the relevance of posting that diagram of the walls.

4.The Edo warrior king Akpanigiakon, the Ogie of Udo who harrassed Benin was indeed the reason for the digging of moats on the western side, until Udo was conquered and incorporated. That is already known.

On if the Benins knew of the Agbor and Ubulu Uku kingdoms, How did you know if they dont know abt the kingdoms ? Because there are evidences they knew than they didnot know.A good example is the distribution of food crops usually economic trees which are relatively unknown in Yorubaland but have always formed the diet of the Anioma/Igbo and the Edo people.Let me give an example, The African Breadfruit, In Yorubaland it is virtually unknown but in Edo  and Anioma lands it is a staple food item.This is how you study history.

No, this is how you make weak attempts to discuss the agricultural history of a region without knowing what you're talking about . What kind of bizarre claim is this? Are you unaware that some areas of the country are geographically different (in terms of terrain, for one thing)? Why then would the existence of certain types of plant life in the areas of two groups but not in another area which is slightly geographically different, in some way show that a certain fruit was necessarily spread and traded between two human groups (leading to it spreading from one area to another), rather than existing in both areas of the two groups naturally (as other vegetation common to both areas had existed) independently of any human activity to spread it?

This would be like arguing that the knowledge of the kola nut among the Fulani and the Igbo necessarily means that there was ancient contact in which one group (Fulani) spread the kola nut to the other group (Igbo) but not to any groups that can be shown to not have indigenous knowledge of the kola nut without modern contact with either group. Therefore there was significant ancient contact between the Fulani and the Igbo? (Going by your reasoning.) This is completely ludicrous reasoning and does not have any validity.

But that is only a theoretical error in your reasoning. There are factual errors as well. Let's discuss the African breadfruit, since you want to engage in speculation in areas where (clearly) neither of us have any expertise.

1. The Yoruba word for the African breadfruit is "afon":

"Treculia africana (African breadfruit) is a tropical tree crop belonging to the taxonomic family Moraceae. It is also called wild jackfruit or African-boxwood. To the French it is abre   pain d' Afrique.

In Nigeria, the Igbos call it ukwa. It is afon in Yoruba; ize in Benin, Jekri and Sobo; izea in Ijaw; ediang in Efik.

According to The Useful Plants of Tropical West Africa by H. M. Burkill, "the bark of breadfruit tree is used medicinally in the Western Province, Gold Coast, as cough medicine and laxative, and in French Guinea for leprosy. According to Pobeguin, the sap of the male tree is supposed to be caustic and toxic, and is applied on cotton wool to cause a carious tooth to fall out".

http://www.yorubareligion.org/_con/_rubric/detail.php?nr=1046&rubric=healing


^^^^^

a) The Yorubas know what that fruit is, independant of modern agricultural trends and they have an indigenous name for it.

b) There is a similarity between the name for African breadfruit among the Bini, Itsekiri, Urhobo, and Ijaw. We know that there was trade between those groups, particularly at Ughoton and at the riverine areas of the Benin kingdom. But even if the Delta Igbos called the African breadfruit ize rather than ukwa, it would not prove when any contact would have occurred, as the word could have been spread later.


2. "Introduction
The African breadfruit tree (Treculia africana Decn var
africana) is native to many tropical countries like West
Indies, Ghana, Sierra Leone, Nigeria and Jamaica1. Its seed,
commonly called “afon” and “ukwa” by the Yoruba and
Igbos of Nigeria, is popular as a traditional food item. It is
commonly roasted, cooked, mashed and consumed either
directly as snack food or as flour for use in soup thickening
and cakes." - Chemical properties of raw and processed breadfruit (treculia africana) seed flour, African Crop Science Conference Proceedings, Vol. 6. 547-551

http://www.acss.ws/Upload/XML/Research/70.pdf

Well, the spambot got that very long response. No surprise there.




@ Yoruba speakers, could you explain something to me


How can "Olueko of Eko" be the traditional Yoruba title of the Oba of Lagos if he has a unique title for his throne?


a) Doesn't "Olueko" (Eleko) literally mean king/ruler of Eko? In that case, "Olueko of Eko" would mean King of Eko of Eko? Well if it is indeed Eleko of Eko (which still means ruler of eko of eko), then he does not have a unique title for his throne. It would seem that exotik was right. There is nothing unique about the Oba of Lagos's title because it literally means ruler of Eko (Lagos). This is no different than the Oba of Benin meaning the king of Benin or the Olu of Warri meaning the king of Warri. I don't think that Olueko or Eleko is a unique title.

b)  What is the difference between Olu and Oba as far as speakers of the Yoruba language are concerned?

Olu(wa) = lord

Oba = king

PhysicsHD:

Well, the spambot got that very long response. No surprise there.




@ Yoruba speakers, could you explain something to me


How can "Olueko of Eko" be the traditional Yoruba title of the Oba of Lagos if he has a unique title for his throne?


a) Doesn't "Olueko" (Eleko) literally mean king/ruler of Eko? In that case, "Olueko of Eko" would mean King of Eko of Eko? Well if it is indeed Eleko of Eko (which still means ruler of eko of eko), then he does not have a unique title for his throne. It would seem that exotik was right. There is nothing unique about the Oba of Lagos's title because it literally means ruler of Eko (Lagos). This is no different than the Oba of Benin meaning the king of Benin or the Olu of Warri meaning the king of Warri. I don't think that Olueko or Eleko is a unique title.

b)  What is the difference between Olu and Oba as far as speakers of the Yoruba language are concerned?

Olu can mean ruler or lord so if you say Olueko of eko, it means ruler/lord of Eko. Olu of Warri means ruler or lord of warri. Olu of apapa etc

You can read more here

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

<Quote> PhysicsHD:

@ Yoruba speakers, could you explain something to me


How can "Olueko of Eko" be the traditional Yoruba title of the Oba of Lagos if he has a unique title for his throne?


a) Doesn't "Olueko" (Eleko) literally mean king/ruler of Eko? In that case, "Olueko of Eko" would mean King of Eko of Eko? Well if it is indeed Eleko of Eko (which still means ruler of eko of eko), then he does not have a unique title for his throne. It would seem that exotik was right. There is nothing unique about the Oba of Lagos's title because it literally means ruler of Eko (Lagos). This is no different than the Oba of Benin meaning the king of Benin or the Olu of Warri meaning the king of Warri. I don't think that Olueko or Eleko is a unique title.

b)  What is the difference between Olu and Oba as far as speakers of the Yoruba language are concerned? </quote>

Physics,

There has only been one Eleko in our history in Lagos : Prince Esikpa of the Bini royal house - said to be of Eweka lineage - (I don't know the different lineages in the Bini palace.

Esikpa was a titular prince but not the crown prince, direct heir to the Bini throne.  

His son, Addo (sometimes spelt Ado) was the first Oba of Lagos.

All the rulers ever since have been Oba, exept twice, in 1749 when Erelu Kekere sat and ruled from the throne pending decision of the kingmakers to coronate her son, Oba Olorogun kutere in 1750. The other occassion was in 2003 when Erelu Kuti sat and ruled from the throne between the death of Oba Oyekan II and the coronation of present King, Oba Akiolu I.

I ought to mention that we have had three titles, the first and only one being Eleko; Erelu is a female ruler and has been used twice and will be used again when needed in future. Erelu has to be a high princess from any of the ruling houses of the royal lineage.

Oba of Lagos is the customary title for the King.

The first Bini dynasty in Lagos ended with Oba Akinsemoyin in 1704.
The second dynasty started with Akinsemoyin's sister, Princess Kuti (who became Erelu and ascended the throne in 1749 after her brother's death).

She was married to High Priest Asipa, an Ijesa man who was priest to Oba Akinsemoyin.

Their offspring Olorogun Kutere asended the thrne a year later and through him came the successive Kings.

This is not the place to discuss this but Olu and Oba are actually drawn from the Yoruba's proto-semitic origin.

Olu - El
Oba - Abba

Olu in Yoruba meaning "posessor".

Oba in Yoruba meaning "ruler".

Thanks for the clarification lakal, step1, and Negro_Ntns.

Ogbuefi 1: @Physics MHD,

1)On a different court for Ozanogogo does not translate to a different clan nor transfer to Benin kingdom, I will therefore advice you read the remarks without any bias.One of the reasons given by the Ozas was language and distance and this was justified and even supported by many Agbor who simultaneously recommended that such courts should as well be established in the peripheral towns such as Oza, Emuhu and Oki.I was challenge you to provide one single document when all Oza people were together under one Akugbe native authority(not district) of Benin.It was never the case.Igbanke along with other Ika clans were even part of the old Benin district ( except you are saying that all Ika clans should be transferred back to Benin).Who ever gave that account does not even know what he is saying.
Now on the issue of Ikaworld.com, let me put it this way, The claim that the Ika(Anioma) market days are different from Edo market days is wrong and I think the author of that account got it all wrong.The Anioma and Edo people call the market days similarly and ascribe to them different purposes which as well shows some similarities.The author of that may not personally understand why Ozarra came to be where they are at present.Or I would say he would want Ika land to be described as a homogenous unit but this has never been the situation in Aniomaland.Our people are of diversed origin and in some other clans like Ebu and Ugbodu we still hear some other dialects such as Yoruba and Igala.What however unites us is our history , customs/civilization and identity.There are of course a few voices of dissent but I bet you if a referendum is conducted in Ozarra today, most would want to remain in Agbor and those who would want to join Benin will do so because they want to identify with their Oza Aibiokunla kith and kin and not because they see their lands as part of the domain of the Oba nor do they wholly identify themselves as mainstream Benin People.
If I should follow , your line of arguement then I will be like many Anioma people be willing to give up Ozarra in replacement of Igbanke, and other Ika communities in Beninlands like Iru, Igbogiri and Owa Iriuzor(renamed Evbo Obanosa).

1. "Transfer to Benin Kingdom"?

I have seen their personal names, the names of the different quarters of Oga nogogo, the names for priests, the names of people in their history, etc. and it is all Bini. All of it. I'm willing to bet that if I heard them speaking I would hear mostly Edo (though obviously somewhat different), with some Igbo spliced in here and there. Now, who is talking about a transfer to Benin kingdom? Some Bini places like Egor have traditional rulers that claim to be their own kingdoms and not truly under the Oba of Benin, so how does me stating that the Oza-nogogo are Edo, and not Ika, and are only under Agbor through colonial poltics equate to claiming that they should be "transferred to Benin kingdom"? I said that going by your argument in this thread that Igbanke should be transferred to Anioma and that they are being held against their will chiefly through the moves of the Benin Palace, then they (Oza nogogo) should be in Edo state because they are in fact an Edo group, no matter how many Oza nogogo titles you try to connect to Agbor.You keep talking about the "domain of the Oba" and "mainstream" Benin people, but that's not even connected to this discussion, and you have yet to explain why the domain of the Agbor kingdom should extend into Oza nogogo when the Ika people of Agbor and the Edo people of Oza nogogo are ethnically different even though that is your entire argument for your accusation against the Benin palace not being able to claim the Igbanke as being Edo.


2. You talk about voting to stay under Agbor kingdom, but I have provided at least two sources, in an earlier post in which actual people from Oza nogogo listed specific grievances that they had against their neighbors and the way they feel that they have been treated all those years. I asked for clarification from anybody about whether these claims of marginalization were in any way reasonable, but you dodged that question like a trained politician although you clearly read that post. Nobody has been able to answer whether the accusations of some Oza nogogo people about marginalization are indeed true, despite all the time that has elapsed since I first posted that claim. Meanwhile, all this time people were talking about deliberate marginalization of Igbanke or Ekpon without ever stating what they thought this marginalization really was. Maybe instead of claiming that the Oza nogogo people are so naturally desirous to be under Agbor kingdom, you should tell your leaders, elected officials, government, etc., to refute those accusations that are incorrect and to meet the needs of their community and address those accusations that are correct. The best you could do was to claim that they want some minerals, yet there was no complaint about resource control from them, rather they were concerned about development in their community. There are not that many Oza nogogo websites online, nor are there many books or articles about this group. If in every single article online, one reads some sort of grumbling against their Ika neighbors over alleged marginalization, then how am I supposed to believe this claim about some sort of overwhelming desire to be part of Agbor?


3. As for ikaworld.com I do not care about any comments about market days. I know that the Edo market days and the Igbo market days are the same. I posted that to show that even other Ika people were reasonable enough to see that a group that shows such clear signs of "Bininess" are of Edo origin without engaging in irrelevant claims about some Ogisi title (which even sounds like it has an Edoid origin, by the way, but that's another topic entirely). My point is that some of your own people are not necessarily agreeing with you, perhaps because they are not expansionists.

4. Why do you insist on calling Oza nogogo by the name Ozarra?

5. What is all this talk about heterogeneity?

Your very argument hinges on the claim that the ethnic difference between Igbanke and Binis means that Igbanke should not be part of Benin kingdom but should be with their kith and kin!

Meanwhile you somehow don't see why the Oza nogogo people should not be under Agbor, which is not composed of their kith and kin.


6. And I am following your line of argument, by the way. It's just that you seem unwilling (for whatever reason) to extend your reasoning to its logical conclusion - that every Edo speaking community (not just Oza nogogo) in Anioma should be "transferred" to Edo state. You also mentioned the Edo speaking community of Alilehan in one of you posts that did not show and you claimed that "Ali" was an Igbo prefix meaning "land of". Yet you could not translate the rest. Why is that? Maybe because the name is like Greek to you? For the record "Ala" rather than "Ali" seems to be the Igbo prefix meaning "land of" and Alilehan is undoubtedly Edo. Alile is an Edo word for a very strong cord found in the forest that cannot be cut - that is the literal meaning but the real meaning is a person (or community, in this instance) with very strong character. But I think that name (Alilehan) matches up better and more perfectly with the Bini name Aileleihan, meaning one who refuses to take the wrong way. It's a shame that you want to claim these communities for the Ika but you and other Ika people are completely confused by even their names. Yes I would have no problem with doing an exchange of communities if it would stop all this whining and propaganda but I know that that is not necessarily feasible.


7. I did not continue that Ekpon debate with you after my response didn't show up, but for the record, I have looked around and Esan people are still definitely claiming Ekpon in every publication from Esan people that lists the Esan subgroups.

I have to ask, do Esan people have any idea what Ika culture is, social aspects or otherwise, for them to be able to tell that this is a separate group, not a subgroup of their people?

The truth is that from sources that I have read, the Esan considered Ekpon to be just another branch of the Esan, so if this makes them expansionists, then they've been misled by the cultural adoption frmo that group (Ekpon). It does not mean that they're trying to steal Ekpon from a group whose culture they are not experts on.

They would assume the Ekpon were Esan for the exact same reasons that you can tell that they aren't Esan but rather Ika: language and culture.

This is an interesting post on some Ekpon man (who, for whatever reason, called himself Idemudia) and because of how he had presented himself, even an Igbo man (Chxta) originally thought he was Bini! :

http://chxta..com/2009/02/death-of-language.html


You say "the old Esan dialect is practically dead" (and that article written by that Ekpon guy in that link above confirms this claim) and that "Ekpon has become more Ikanized"

How on earth is it the fault of the Esan if they considered a language (the old Ekpon language that is near death) that could be considered a dialect of Esan to be evidence that these people (Ekpon) were an Esan speaking people?!!

Or were the Esan supposed to identify every cultural and linguistic aspect of Ekpon that was different as Ika (a culture and language they are not experts on), when, even within Esan, there are different dialects?

Any sort of propaganda that leads to some conclusion like "the Esan are oppressive expansionists" needs to be reworked immediately.

If these people are serious about being Igbo, they will just learn Igbo (real Igbo), stop using Edo or Esan words, customs, names, etc. and nobody will confuse them with anybody else. You cannot be in limbo between two ethnic groups, culturally and then declare that you are really only based in one group.


Also, this same dispute exists in Rivers state with some group that is considered by some Ijaws to be a group of Ijaw people with Igbo influence being called Igbo by Igbos, because of such enormously prevalent signs of Igbo culture and language among them. So the case of Edos identifying people with Edo culture as Edo is not unique to so called Bini or Esan expansionists. Whether those groups in Rivers state are Ijaw with Igbo influence or Igbo with Ijaw influence is a whole other issue (it seems that they're a basically a real ethinc mix, from what I've read), but either the Igbo or the Ijaw would be engaged in "annexation" attempts according to you, just because they rightly see elements of their own language and culture in those groups.

@the poster, this thread has gone up to 30 pages without any one answering your question. Anyway, Delta Igbo means Ndigbo who are found in Delta state from From Agbor-Ogwashi Ukwu-Asaba-Kwale.
While Bendel Igbo includes Ndigbo in old Bendel state (Igbanke, Edo state) and the ones in present Delta state.

@Exothief, Na your papa be be Ozuor, Or should I use the common Edo curse Ogun will do this or that, These are curse used by children of which you are one.Like I said earlier your words are are harmless to me.You started with Iguefi I ignored that because I know that your are a mischievous person. Since you have refused to refrain from that, you are be renamed "Exothief" and a pathetic crook for that matter.Go through your thread, what is the new information you have added to your miserable points ? None as far as I as concerned. But I think you are evn to young to understand anything.You must have been a very dull student in school.
I would not waste any valuable time to debate on anything with you because like I always say you are beneath me and a mis match for me in this kind of debate because you dont know anything and this is the problem with many of our youths in this country.Take for instance his claim that Igboland is "full of red sand and bushes", Yes there are red sand almost everywhere in Nigeria but I dont think a person of Benin descent should mock an Igbo over red sand and bushes because Benin leads this country in both.One more advice, Exothief, try and trace your lineage to who evr was the founder , I have done the genealogy of my lineage to one of the founders of my community.Let me give you a clue, You can count the number of the said IGIOGBE houses, lol

@Physics MHD,
1)I didnt get to your replies because of the spam box and I will be very happy if you send your response in bits so that I can get to read them and give my "propaganda" to it, At least that is your language and that is what you chose to believe.Like I always say human history is such that for certain reasons "history" which ought to be based on fact is often distorted to achieve some points often political in nature.Let me give an example, When Stalin was in power , history at least the one told in the Soviet Union is that he is a hero and defended the country against Nazi advance.But since the collapse of communist rule , what was history has been adjusted and Stalin is now defined as a tyrant by the Russian federation.That is history for you ! Nigeria today cannot without come out to tell the world her own history between 1966 to 1970 because there are a lot of contentious issues.So can I say lets stick to our versions, But the fact remains that the Igbo cannot be cowed down just like and have imposed on them what Nigeria thinks is history for the sake of "national unity", That one no go work.

2)The picture you sent is an interesting one, But the simple question was that occassion the only one Zik was present in Benin ? Because I know that he visited Benin so many times even up to the brink of the first coup in 1966.As such I dont understand what the said picture was supposed to have achieved.But it did reveal something else, the first principal of the Edo College Mr Moloku is an Anioma man and I just found it from the picture. Moloku (Molokwu ) is a name borne by Anioma people and relatives in Onitsha-Ogbaru.

3)Clap! Clap!! Clap!!! Prof Emovon was VC of UNIJOS, Good Prof Emovon is an accomplished man and a pride to the Benin people but we do have the likes of Prof Frank Ndili(VC UNN 1980-85) , I personally consider the attainment by Prof Ndili(Africa first Phd holder in Nuclear Physics) remarkable perhaps even more than Prof Emovon's because the UNN is a more prestigious instituion than UNIJOS and as such the position of the VC is usually a tougher one.Besides we also had Prof Chike Onwuachi the first Director General of the Nigerian Institute of International Affairs.I need not remind anyone that beyond Aniomaland, Igbos have produced the likes of Prof Onwuka Dike the first indigenous VC of UNIBADAN and Prof Eni Njoku the first VC of UNILAG both Universities being in Yorubaland.
I am not privy to compare whatever publication by Prof Osagie and Prof Nwanze and make comparisons between them and I dont think you have either.I am therefore challenging you to provide the source of the claim that Prof Osagie is a more accomplished scholar.Perhaps he is outstanding to the Benin people considering the late entry to the British created educational arrangement( let me use your language).

4)The first primary school in Benin was founded in 1900; just a year older than the first primary school founded in Igbodo my home town(c. 1901).The claim that this school in Benin is unfounded and yet one of your lies I am exposing a usual.The first school of such if I should give it such a title was founded in Aboh in 1841 during the reign of Obi Ossai(c 1826-44).This was the year Christainity first came to Igboland and was introduced by Bishop Crowther and Silas Jonah(a native speaker of Igbo) both of them were ex slaves.It was following the death of Obi Ossai in 1844 that forced the Mission to relocate to Onitsha in 1856 where it survived.Unlike the Aboh mission that was unsustainable, the mission and schools in Onitsha expanded and schools were introduced in Asaba in 1875 first by the CMS mission and a year later by the Catholic Mission.Therefore we have had schools for a qtr of a century before it got to Benin.

5) So if the St Thomas College Ibusa was not a secondary School , What was it then ? Because the school still exists in the town and it is a secondary school(the teacher training facilities have been converted to the present Federal Girls College in the town).The Anioma people contributed a lot to propagate the Catholic faith and education in the Midwest region and beyond.I wont be suprised if the said Mr Molokwu did not pass via the college.The first indigenous Catholic Bishop within the Midwest Bishop Nwaezeapu of Warri a native of that town is an example of what the Anioma people gave back to the Mission.You cannot say that the Kings College in Lagos is older than CMS Bariga both are secondary schools except you want to interpret your understanding of secondary schools to mean Govt secondary schools which has never been the case.I will also like to add that the first skills acquisition centre in the Midwest was established in Asaba in 1898.This was the Rural training Institute which has metamorphosized into the present Asaba campus of DELSU(after many years as College of Agriculture).If I were as desparate like you to prove a point I would have I would have claimed that this institution was the oldest secondary school in the Midwest and I can back it up with reasonable points( or propaganda as you think) to back it up.

6)I wonder the fuss ver the flogging of the Iyoba, This is our own version of what happened.To you it sounds silly but to me it is a part of our history.After all , your Egharevba told the world in his controversial publication that the Obis of Agbor and Ubulu Uku were beheaded just to uphold the "glory" of the Benin empire eventhough such stories donot even exist amongst our people.Even the great Zik whose Edo ancestrythe Benin's are proud of (let me use your language) was more diplomatic in his account in his book My Odyssey published after the war.He said and quote me that the Kings mother ie the Iyoba was "assaulted" for trampling over the farmlands of Eze Chime.I will advice you go read the book.


@Andre Uweh, You are right , the name Delta Igbo refers to the Igbos of Delta State.I will call it the latest development of such descriptive names.The first was West Niger Igbo used as early as the 19th century.Then with the creation of the Western Region, the Igbo speaking district became Western Igbo with the creation of the Midwest, it became Midwest Igbo(Ndoni in Rivers state was then included), then transformed to Bendel Igbo and at present Delta Igbo.We prefer to call ourselves Anioma people though the designation considering its long history is also used by the Anioma people.The traditional names of our people however are the Enuani(the upland group from Agbor to Asaba) which the Edo call "Eka" and the Ukwuani(lowland people up to Ndoni) which the Edo people call "Ekuale".The Enuani and Ukwuani are of the same stock Talbot 1926.

@Negro_Ntns, Proto-Semitic, lol, That cant be true because the genetic make up of Semites is different from the genetic make up of West Africans.The Y chromosone trait of West Africans is primarily Eb1b1 while that of the Semites is Eb1a1.I will advice you research more on history than just speculating.Your notes on Lagos was however informative.

exotik: "it is all history and we all know how people manipulate history to suit their agenda, whether it happened a thousand years ago or happened a century ago, it is all history."

iguefi: "Like I always say human history is such that for certain reasons "history" which ought to be based on fact is often distorted to achieve some points often political in nature."

^^^

did u just recycle my words? and u say u are the "bright" one bringing something "new" to the thread? hahahahahahah, u be really ozuo and an old one for that matter. and yes, igboland is full of bushes and they still eat people there. you should come and see how corpers that they posted to isiala ngwa area for primary assignment were crying their eyes out make igboman nor go use dem make pepper soup and nkuobi, crying as if say na afghan dem for say make dem do primary assignment. igboland na bush. infact the word "igbo" has bush written all over it, and those so-called anioma igbos who say are they are "ibos" even consider those "igbos" across the niger/east as bush people. no wonder people say igboman is a bush dweller, haha

btw, iguefi what are u still doing in benin? leave benin and pack go stay one of the several bushes in igboland and see whether dem nor go chop your children.

and how come u have not answered my question? no answer? don't tell me u have become a dullard who cannot answer question. ozuo

"Like I said earlier your words are are harmless to me."

so it is your words that are not harmless to me? you were even silly enough to insult my dad and think it will change anything, but it is all blah blah blah.

Yes there are  red sand almost everywhere in Nigeria but I dont think a person of Benin descent should mock an Igbo over red sand and bushes because Benin leads this country in both.

pure undiluted lie because benin is expanding every minute. go down sapele road where austin lazarus has his house, it is developing rapidly further than the road to areas like ekai. go down oko to areas like iriri and see how fast it is growing. infact people down sapele road and oko are forming that it is G.R.A and trying to merge it to G.R.A by tagging it G.R.A. and since you are anioma-igbo, go uphill further up ikpoba hill area as if you are going to the east and see how fast it is growing with enclaves of igbos who could stay in their so-called developed land.
benin is expanding so rapidly that even areas like iheya community down ugbowo-lagos road, way after uniben as if u are travelling to lagos is now becoming part of benin city. infact uniben itself is actually in ovia and not benin that's to show benin has been growing rapidly over the decades and will continue to grow. so there are no more bushes in the mainland of benin. infact there is no more space in benin mainland and if you are looking for a land to buy now, you have to go the outskirts of benin city to acquire one which would be another local govt entirely that has merged into the city.

. try and trace your lineage to who evr was the founder ,

u are a dullard becos if u weren't, u would have read and understood where i said my great-great-grand fathers house is still in benin. unlike igbos who don't know their history and have to wait for oyiboman to come do it for dem, every edo man knows his history. we are taught from birth within the family.  so it is clear that i know my lineage. im an usen man. and it is a place like usen that u should be comparing to asaba not benin. usen has constant/stable electricity and even has a state owned polytechnic. okada which is not too far away from usen and in the same local govt, has one of the best private university in the country which was the first private uni in nigeria if im not mistaking. delta state as a whole even with all the resources still has nothing on edo, not to talk of the dry fraction of delta state called anioma, and that is why till date their are still more deltans in edo than edos in delta. so my advice to u iguefi is to shut up and say thank u to edo people for training u to become who u are. ungrateful idiiiot.

and iguefi, one more thing, since eze chime was an edo man of esan origin, and if im correct, he is the one who igbos regard as the founder of those communities in anioma plus onitsha, abi? then it would mean it was an edo man that brought civilisation he took from benin of how to build a community to all them bush igbos, and he civilized their bush arses. haha
so show respect dummy.

<Quote> @Physics MHD,
 1)I didnt get to your replies because of the spam box and I will be very happy if you send your response in bits so that I can get to read them and give my "propaganda" to it, At least that is your language and that is what you chose to believe.Like I always say human history is such that for certain reasons "history" which ought to be based on fact is often distorted to achieve some points often political in nature. </quote>

Ogbuefi,

The political struggles of man is tied to tangibles. Territorial boundary is a fundamental priority in the consciousness of mankind. Motherland or Fatherland as he calls it! The human bond is an extention of that tangible, be it cultural, religious or racial assimilation. The value of a culture is assessed based on a continous line of glory in its pasts. Sense of cultural supremacy is derived from this assessment. In an attempt to dominate the turf, a culture will project to its rivals far more attributes than it actually is endowed with.

This is purely human nature and normally ok. Without that there will be no rivalry and where there is no competition there will be no advancement.


<Quote> Let me give an example, When Stalin was in power , history at least the one told in the Soviet Union is that he is a hero and defended the country against Nazi advance.But since the collapse of communist rule , what was history has been adjusted and Stalin is now defined as a tyrant by the Russian federation.That is history for you !</quote>

On the international front, Saddam Hussein was reputed as a very patriotic man that will go any length to defend his nation and its citizens against external threats. However on the domestic front, he was a tyrant that selectively murdered people.

The two personalities coexisting in the one individual is possible. Its a paradox of life and can not be concluded as a misrepresentation of historical facts.

There is no abnormality in the side by side paradox, however a clinical study may disagree and see him as a Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde type abnormality.


<Quote> Nigeria today cannot without come out to tell the world her own history between 1966 to  1970 because there are a lot of  contentious issues. </quote>

Who in the world is Nigeria having contentions with on the matter?  There is no guilt on the National conscience regarding the civil war. It was a domestic national security issue and the country handled it admirably. Any account of the war that are left unresolved will contionue to be debated within the domestic front to respond to pending questions that continue to eat-away at the ndigbo soul and spirit.


<Quote> So can I say lets stick to our versions,</quote>

No! Your version is attached to your ego and you have become a prisoner to it. You are seeking to imprison others in that darkness. You need to find healing and let it go.


<Quote> But the fact remains that the Igbo cannot be cowed down just like and have imposed on them what Nigeria thinks is history  for the sake of "national unity",</quote>

Physics is the best to give you reference points on the deveopments and events that led to what you call "history" - a 3 year span of bloodshed that you continously demarcate and package as an isolated hatred and assault on Biafra. As if that 3yrs war was a freak accident of some sort.

If you charge Nigeria a price for the war, what should Nigeria charge you for demoralizing and putting the nation into ruin from 1960 to 66 when it was all under the management of ndigbo?




<Quote> 3)Clap! Clap!! Clap!!! Prof Emovon was VC of UNIJOS, Good Prof Emovon is an accomplished man   and a pride to the Benin people but we do have the likes of Prof Frank Ndili(VC UNN 1980-85) , I personally consider the attainment by Prof Ndili(Africa first Phd holder in Nuclear Physics) remarkable perhaps even more than Prof Emovon's because the UNN is a more prestigious instituion than UNIJOS and as such the position of the VC is usually a tougher one.Besides we also had Prof Chike Onwuachi the first Director General of the Nigerian Institute of International Affairs.I need not remind anyone that beyond Aniomaland, Igbos have produced the likes of Prof Onwuka Dike the first indigenous VC of UNIBADAN and Prof Eni Njoku the first VC of UNILAG both Universities being in Yorubaland.

I am not privy to compare whatever publication by Prof Osagie and Prof Nwanze and make comparisons between them and I dont think you have either.I am therefore challenging you to provide the source of the claim that Prof Osagie is a more accomplished scholar.Perhaps he is outstanding to the Benin people considering the late entry to the British created educational arrangement( let me use your language).
</quote>

I have said repeatedly, and there are many anecdotal evidences to support the claim, that Igbos are the wrong majority in Nigeria and your accomplishments are not self-asserted but the results of sponsorship by the colonial master.

At the time when igbo citizens were appointed VC in Yorubaland there were far more qualified Yorubas for the position.

Britain had an agenda to suppress the natural fervor of the West for progressive advancement.

Ibadan was for years the biggest metro city in subsaharan WAfrica and a cosmopolitan one for that matter. In matters of politics we already demonstrated a civilized understanding and self-direction which was a direct affront to the whiteman's need for supremacy and control. Our self-steering and self-dependence was not in harmony with his plans for us to look up to him as "savior" and "benefactor".

To force that behavior and turn the table around he implemented political disadvantages that put other people in charge of our destiny - education, politics, military, law enforcement.

So you need to stop gloating in non-competed appointments that igbos would not have qualified for had the vacancies been fairly competed for on scholarship and merits.

You have the oyibo to thank for subsidizing your majority and advancement in the nationnal history.  



<Quote> 4)The first primary school in Benin was founded in 1900; just a year older than the first primary school founded in Igbodo my home town(c. 1901).The claim that this school in Benin is unfounded and yet one of your lies I am exposing a usual.The first school of such if I should give it such a title was founded in Aboh in 1841 during the reign of Obi Ossai(c 1826-44).This was the year Christainity first came to Igboland and was introduced by Bishop Crowther and Silas Jonah(a native speaker of Igbo) both of them were ex slaves.It was following the death of Obi Ossai in 1844 that forced the Mission to relocate to Onitsha in 1856 where it survived.Unlike the Aboh mission that was unsustainable, the mission and schools in Onitsha expanded and schools were introduced in Asaba in 1875 first by the CMS mission and a year later by the Catholic Mission.Therefore we have had schools for a qtr of a century before it got to Benin.

5) So if the St Thomas College Ibusa was not a secondary School , What was it then ? Because the school still exists in the town and it is a secondary school(the teacher training facilities have been converted to the present Federal Girls College in the town).The Anioma people contributed a lot to propagate the Catholic faith and education in the Midwest region and beyond.I wont be suprised if the said Mr Molokwu did not pass via the college.The first indigenous Catholic Bishop within the Midwest Bishop Nwaezeapu of Warri a native of that town is an example of what the Anioma people gave back to the Mission.You cannot say that the Kings College in Lagos is older than CMS Bariga both are secondary schools except you want to interpret your understanding of secondary schools to mean Govt secondary schools which has never been the case.I will also like to add that the first skills acquisition centre in the Midwest was established in Asaba in 1898.This was the Rural training Institute which has metamorphosized into the present Asaba campus of DELSU(after many years as College of Agriculture).If I were as desparate like you to prove a point I would have I would have claimed that this institution was the oldest secondary school in the Midwest and I can back it up with reasonable points( or propaganda as you think) to back it up.</quote>

Ogbuefi, I am going to use propaganda to rebutt your propaganda here.

The first introduction of western education anywhere in the country happened for two reasons.

1. Teach oyibo version of God

2. Train a labour force for gainful production and commerce.

Igbos have repeatedly said over the forums here in NL that they superseded any other ethnic group in education and that their broad presence in government parastatals and military commands were attestation of their brilliance and achievements as pioneers of western education.

Isn't this true?

Well, you are revealing new information in your narratives.

Here is what I have gathered so far:

A) Igbos were much more pliant and respond with far less resistance to the oyibo man's interest and purpose on the land.

While to the West many groups were rebellious and reluctant to adopt the new religion and a new name, the peiople in the East on other hand did not mind a new identity in exchange for the teachings;  thronged into the classes happy to belong in the new tribe for Jesus.

This rationale also exposes an underlying character of the Igbo tribe; the society is a collection of cellular clans. Yorubas and Hausas have nuclear societies.

The cellular structure of the society makes it difficult to have a central force of rebellion against an invading missionary force. Hence the conversion and indoctrination of the malleable Igbo was all too easy than in anywhere else where missionary success
is recorded.

The missionaries and the colonial administrators had used the experience of their encounters to map the strength and vulnerabilities of each group they cohabited with.

In the decision to put indigenes in possitions of power, this knowledge was implemented as a supplement to the overall objective of continued white man dominance and ownership. So they needed a proxy that would best tow the line and not seek to go independently from the rest.

Thanks to Physics for highliting this knowledge; Hausas did not know what they wanted to do, Yoruba defiantly wanted to go it alone, Igbo wanted a one Nigeria.

Oyibo man concluded against Yoruba in favor of Igbo who all along had been predictably known to fall in line with the white man's demand.

I don't know why Igbo would want one Nigeria ran from the center knowing that such a political structure is foreign to his consciousness. Running a central political system that holds everything else together and in balance is not an Igbo strength.

This point need to be at focus because an Igbo in a future Presidency of Nigeria is a big risk. He will have to be supported by deputies and aides that are natural products of nuclear societies.  


B) The administration affairs of the nation was handed to Igbos. Given their claim to academic qualifiations and top brilliance in the nation, one has to wonder then why nothing worked in the 6yrs -frm 60 to 66 - that Igbo had control of the Presidency, Military and Civil Service authorities.  Inspite the fact we had a President who was a political science graduate, the nation slowly deteriorated and failed to function.

This infuriated the naturally politically astute regions, West and North to fast forward plans for separate destinies.

The West had always known it wanted that but the North was just waking up to it.

Welln not knowing how to give a political resolution to the problem, igbos devised a new meaning to governnment - military coup.

When we talk about how the destiny of Nigeria was ruined, we always have that part of our foothold to blame on Igbo, in addition to many other unecessary atrocities and problems you caused as a result of your ineptitude at central governance.  

<Quote> @Negro_Ntns, Proto-Semitic, lol, That cant be true because the genetic make up of Semites is different from the genetic make up of West Africans.The Y chromosone trait of West Africans is primarily Eb1b1 while that of the Semites is Eb1a1.I will advice you research more on history than just speculating.Your notes on Lagos was however informative.</quote>

When you hear the word proto-semitic the Jewish people instantly came to your mind. Let me correct it.

Abraham the father of Children of Israel, which later took the designation Jew, was a man from the Euphrates/Tigris area and spoke Akkadian.

Hebrew language belonged to the Canaanites. Their land covred what would today extend from Israel on the North, Jordan on West, Qatar on East, Yemen on South. That Southern part is a coshare between them and Cush/Axum.

Looking at the map of Africa and Middle East, Arabian Peninsula itself is a fracture - cookie snap - off the mainland Africa.

Before that breakoff would have happened, it could be accurately argued that that whole peninsula and its inhabitants were mainland Africans.

Ancient Hebrew, spoken by Canaanites is a member of semite language. Others are Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Amharic and so on. They are termed semitic. Other tongues that share root words with them are termed proto-semitic.

Yoruba has too many similarities and symmetrical rituals that it is much harder to prove it as an indigenous West African origin than it is to place it at home in this Afro-Asiatic peninsula.

If you are using genome as a qualifier then you have to first prove that Canaanites which is semitic share same genome tyype with the rest of semitic grp.

Ogbuefi 1: @Exothief, Na your papa be be Ozuor, Or should I use the common Edo curse Ogun will do this or that, These are curse used by children of which you are one.Like I said earlier your words are are harmless to me.You started with Iguefi I ignored that because I know that your are a mischievous person. Since you have refused to refrain from that, you are be renamed "Exothief"  and a pathetic crook for that matter.Go through your thread, what is the new information you have added to your miserable points ? None as far as I  as concerned. But I think you are evn to young to understand anything.You must have been a very dull student in school.
I would not waste any valuable time to debate on anything with you because like I always say you are beneath me and a mis match for me in this kind of debate because you dont know anything and this is the problem with many of our youths in this country.Take for instance his claim that Igboland is "full of red sand and bushes", Yes there are  red sand almost everywhere in Nigeria but I dont think a person of Benin descent should mock an Igbo over red sand and bushes because Benin leads this country in both.One more advice, Exothief, try and trace your lineage to who evr was the founder , I have done the genealogy of my lineage to one of the founders of my community.Let me give you a clue, You can count the number of the said IGIOGBE houses, lol

Lol, you sound frustrated. Why are you lashing out? You should answer his question about Oba Eweka and also about why they would adopt a practice (the "Omu" queen mother tradition) out of inspiration from a woman that they despised. This isn't politics, it's the culture section, so there's no need to dodge his points like a politician. Also, you should be thanking him.  He educated you about the Oba of Lagos and  about Edo words free of charge! So now you won't make those mistakes again when proclaiming to be an expert and not a neophyte. Make sure to thank exotik for educating an "expert" on the Midwest like yourself before you leave this thread. It's the polite thing to do. 

Ogbuefi 1:

@Physics MHD,
1)I didnt get to your replies because of the spam box and I will be very happy if you send your response in bits so that I can get to read them and give my "propaganda" to it, At least that is your language and that is what you chose to believe.Like I always say human history is such that for certain reasons "history" which ought to be based on fact is often distorted to achieve some points often political in nature.Let me give an example, When Stalin was in power , history at least the one told in the Soviet Union is that he is a hero and defended the country against Nazi advance.But since the collapse of communist rule , what was history has been adjusted and Stalin is now defined as a tyrant by the Russian federation.That is history for you ! Nigeria today cannot without come out to tell the world her own history between 1966 to  1970 because there are a lot of  contentious issues.So can I say lets stick to our versions, But the fact remains that the Igbo cannot be cowed down just like and have imposed on them what Nigeria thinks is history  for the sake of "national unity", That one no go work.

1. I maintain that you are a propagandist. Your statement about some sort of allegation among "the Benins" against Zik was shameless and unsubstantiated.

2. Your misunderstanding of the Uniben VC tussle and your attempt to insinuate that Nwanze was VC before a Benin man because of some sort of lack or failing on the part of Binis was similarly shameless.

3. When I brought up that Chike Ekwuyasi had been elected on Otu Edo platform earlier, you claimed that this was because Otu Edo was allied with the NCNC, which shows a total misunderstanding of both my point and of political parties or it was a deliberate attempt at distortion. These sorts of distortions are what I would expect from a propagandist.

Early you made it seem as though I said a "special favor" was done toward the Anioma by electing Chike Ekwuyasi under Otu Edo. I never said a special favor was done toward the Anioma by having Chike Ekwuyasi elected under Otu Edo. I only pointed out the significance of this to your claim about the Binis and tribalism. You don't seem to understand how a political party works. A man or woman cannot declare that they are representing a political party, without the approval of those heading the party. It does not work like that anywhere in the world, and certainly not in Nigeria. Any such action is just a lawsuit waiting to happen. An NCNC man could not just claim to be representing Otu Edo.

There is no way and no how that the Binis would fail to notice that Chike Ekwuyasi is an Igbo man and if they are as tribalistic as you claim there is no way they would let a non Edo contest on Otu Edo platform and there is no way he would be elected after contesting. Or was Otu Edo founded and run by the NCNC? No. Otu Edo was founded and run by Binis, initially to oppose ogbonism. So the question is why they were liberal enough to embrace an Igbo man as a representative of their Edo based party! This is something you won't manage to circumvent with your skewed understanding of politics or your propaganda.



4. This honorable man (Chief Amechi) should give you just a hint into what the political orientation of Benin was with respect to Nnamdi Azikiwe:

"Oba Akenzua II deserves National Award
By MATTHEW OKAGHA



BENIN CITY- One of Nigeria’s foremost nationalists, Chief Mbazulike Amechi has frowned seriously at the failure of the Federal Government to bestow a posthumous national award on Oba Akenzua II in recognition of his contributions to the political liberation of the nation from the British colonialists.

Chief Amechi who bared his mind while speaking in his capacity as chairman of the triple celebration by the Esogban of Benin Kingdom, Chief D.U. Edebiri in Benin City at the weekend, stated unequivocally, that the late Benin Monarch was the only first class Chief in Nigeria then who was not afraid of the colonial powers, and openly identified himself with the nationalists struggle.

Chief Amechi, who is the Dara Akeunwafor Anambra, stated that Oba Akenzua II was popularly known as the father of the Zikist Movement and the father of the NCNC Youth Association.

He added that Oba Akenzua 11 identified with the youth, pointing out that whenever they were in trouble, the late Benin Monarch would rescue them, giving them money and even attended their meetings to address them.

He disclosed that Oba Akenzua II at a point, defied all odds and travelled from Benin to Onitsha to address a meeting of the NCNC Youth Association in 1952.

“Not any other Oba, Emir or Obi in Nigeria had the courage to do that, and he was a typical example of his ancestors who defied the English. The heroism is still there, and it still continues till now. The Benin Kingdom is known for heroism.

Benin Kingdom is known for patriotism, and Benin Kingdom is known for nationalism and I am happy that I was brought up here,” Chief Amechi stated in a chat with newsmen at the event.

Chief Amechi who disclosed that he has written a book titled, “The Forgotten Heroes of Nigeria’s Independence” noted that the national award bestowed on some Nigerians at the nation’s 50th Independence” Anniversary fell short of expectations, adding that the exclusion of notable Nigerians like Oba Akenzua II who risked their lives to extricate the nation from the grip of British colonialists, was one such surprises that characterised the award.

He noted that the incursion of the military into politics had interrupted the spirit of nationalism and patriotism in Nigeria, and as well disjointed the nation’s politics.

According to him, the nationalists went into politics because of what they could give to the country, and not because of what they could get from the country as it is the case today."


5. I also say that you're a propagandist because the truth is that the Binis are liberal rather than close-minded and their history supports this.

A simple example will suffice: Of the 31 Ogisos recorded in Benin history, two of them were female (Emore and Orrorio). What other group in Nigeria had female rulers so early in their history? The only other group I can think of with such an early phenomenon is the Ifes who had one female Ooni of Ife. I can't think of any other groups who had female rulers without going forward by several centuries. In fact, the only reason there were not even one female ruler in Benin during the second dynasty is because one princess (Edeleyo, Oba Ewuare's daughter) that should have taken over (when Olua, Oba Ewuare's second son had initially refused the throne), fell ill due to a womanly problem (medical ailment) and there was a rule established because of that incident that the rulers should be exclusively male. And yet even then, the second dynasty of Benin held women in high enough esteem that some women's charms or "spells" were considered important to actual warfare and the Oba's mother had a title and her own court - which even inspired some Anioma groups to adopt a similar tradition when they had no such practice before.

Another example: After Iyase n'Ode (the Iyase that had a dispute with the Oba of Benin that escalated into a full scale military conflict that ravaged the city) left the Benin court, the Oba attempted to replace him. We certainly know the man that he wanted to replace Ode as the Iyase - a man called Ogbomwan. According to the Bini historian, Osemwegie Ebohon, this man (Ogbomwan) was from Ogwashi-Uku (i.e. the Iyase chosen by Oba Akenzua I was a Delta Igbo). This is what Ebohon has recorded, and there's no reason to believe that it couldn't be the case as Ebohon would be damaging his credibility by making up his origin rather than collecting traditions. This occured in the 1700s. How many other groups had done something similar so early? We know that the present Iyase of Benin (Professor Sam Igbe) is Urhobo, but that is not the first instance where the Benin royalty has chosen a non-Bini over a Bini for a very esteemed position.



6. I'll repost my next replies in bits, but part of my reply has already appeared above on this page (p. 30).

2)The picture you sent is an interesting one, But the simple question was that occassion the only one Zik was present in Benin ? Because I know that he visited Benin so many times even up to the brink of the first coup in 1966.As such I dont understand what the said picture was supposed to have achieved.But it did reveal something else, the first principal of the Edo College Mr Moloku is an Anioma man and I just found it from the picture. Moloku (Molokwu ) is a name borne by Anioma people and relatives in Onitsha-Ogbaru.

1. When did I say that that was the only time Zik was present in Benin?

2. Until you and your source (the drunk) can tell us where and when Zik said he came back to the "land of his ancestors" in Benin and which "Benins" from where said that Zik's statement meant Igbos are trying to take over, it remains propaganda. I would be very interested in hearing how this fellow went around Benin and got the impression that "the Benins" were alleging some takeover which Zik was masterminding.

3. Of course Mr. Moloku was not an Edo man. There would not be an issue with Mr. Moloku being an Igbo man and there were many non-Binis who passed through that school (such as the first VC of Uniben, who was not Bini) and many non-Binis who were employed there. In the scholarship scheme recently established by Edo College, some of the scholarships are named after and funded by Igbos. In that Anglican church (Revd. Payne Memorial) in Benin City that was closed down and which was not founded by Igbos, the two primary languages were Edo and Igbo. I bet that if the first VC of Uniben had been Igbo/Anioma, there would also have been no complaints throughout the whole of the Midwest/Bendel. The only reason there was some complaint from the Binis over the VC thing is because there seemed to be some deliberate game of exclusion against Binis for no reason.

3)Clap! Clap!! Clap!!! Prof Emovon was VC of UNIJOS, Good Prof Emovon is an accomplished man   and a pride to the Benin people but we do have the likes of Prof Frank Ndili(VC UNN 1980-85) , I personally consider the attainment by Prof Ndili(Africa first Phd holder in Nuclear Physics) remarkable perhaps even more than Prof Emovon's because the UNN is a more prestigious instituion than UNIJOS and as such the position of the VC is usually a tougher one.Besides we also had Prof Chike Onwuachi the first Director General of the Nigerian Institute of International Affairs.I need not remind anyone that beyond Aniomaland, Igbos have produced the likes of Prof Onwuka Dike the first indigenous VC of UNIBADAN and Prof Eni Njoku the first VC of UNILAG both Universities being in Yorubaland.

1. So there was not an Anioma VC before Emovon? What were you guys doing with that educational head start?  Smh.

2. The first VC of UniJos was also Igbo, but he was not Anioma. But my point about Professor Emovon is that not only was he the first Nigerian Ph.D in chemistry (Physical Chemistry, 1959), despite coming from a small ethnic group, he was also a vice chancellor before any Anioma man or anybody from several other groups, some of them with larger populations, yet Binis were not claiming some sort of superiority or putting down any other groups.

3. So you need to use sub-fields of a discipline to state what the Anioma were first in? (because I know for a fact that Dr. Frank Ndili was not the first physics Ph.D. out of Nigeria). This despite your very real educational head start in Aniomaland? If I should follow your logic, then Professor G.O.S. Ekhaguere (one of the earliest (if not the first) Nigerian Ph.Ds in Mathematical Physics (as a specific sub-field of physics)) is more impressive than some other earlier Ph.Ds because of the specific area of his Ph.D. I could even buttress such a weak argument by the fact that mathematical physics is one of the "rarer" areas of specialization in physics in the sense that many more physicists are condensed matter/solid state physicists or in other areas of physics and this has been the case for a while. Regardless, this argument doesn't hold. Kudos to Dr. Ndili, but I don't see it as more impressive just because of the area the Ph.D is in.


Regarding Dr. Frank Ndili being the first nuclear physicist (1965) from black Africa, although I believe it, I would still be a little more cautious with that claim. It was rightfully believed by Nigerians that Chike Obi was the first sub saharan African to get a Ph.D. in mathematics because there was no evidence of anyone earlier, but then some Ghanians produced a claim that a Ghanian, A. M. Taylor, got a Ph.D in mathematics from Oxford in 1947. While I have not seen any concrete evidence to buttress that claim, I certainly do not think that the Ghanians would lie and make up a person and a date for such a claim. Also, Nigerians could easily claim that the first black African Ph.D in chemistry (or, if not all of chemistry, then just physical chemistry), was Dr. Emovon, but Nigerians have not done so out of cautiousness. I am sure that Alexander Animalu (Igbo, but not Anioma) is the first sub saharan African Ph.D in solid state physics, and Abel Guobadia (Bini) was the second in solid state physics, but I think Nigerians have not yet claimed to have produced the first overall physics Ph.D in all of black Africa out of cautiousness. In the same way, a Yoruba man was the first Nigerian Ph.D in computer science (1971) but I doubt that anyone knows for sure that Nigeria actually produced the first black African Ph.D in computer science or that anyone has claimed that a Yoruba produced the first African Ph.D in computer science.

4. If you want to compare Dr. Frank Ndili's area of his Ph.D (Nuclear Physics) with Dr. Emovon's area (Physical Chemistry) then I should retort that Professor Sunday Iyahen was one of the first Nigerians to get a mathematics Ph.D.  for research in a really abstract area of mathematics. Of course, all pure math is abstract, but there are differences: differential equations would not be very high on the ladder of abstraction, for example (I am not talking about "difficulty", just for the record).  Also, Dr. Iyahen was one of the earliest Nigerians in any of the (pure, not applied) mathematical sciences to introduce any new concept in a scientific area (with his results on topological spaces) and Also, Dr. Iyahen was one of the earliest Nigerians in any of the (pure, not applied) mathematical sciences to introduce any new concept in a scientific area (with his results on certain types of topological spaces: countably ultrabarrelled and countably quasiultrabarrelled spaces, ultrabornological spaces, etc.) and that is probably why he was at one point director of the Nigerian Mathematical Centre in Abuja soon after it first started, when many other ethnic groups in the nation could have been there before a Bini.


I should also point out that of the (only) three Nigerian academics who have the D.Sc degree (as claimed by this poster in this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-264280.0.html), not as their first doctorate, but as a higher degree than a Ph.D,  Dr. Iyahen is one of the these few Nigerians to have a D.Sc (1987) after already completing a Ph.D (1967). With the educational head start of the Anioma, I would have expected an Anioma man to earn that degree first, but Jerome Nriagu (who got his honorary D.Sc in the same year as Dr. Iyahen) is from Anambra and the other Professor (Okezie Aruoma) could be Anioma or he could be from elsewhere (I'm not really certain), but he got his DSc after Dr. Iyahen regardless of where he's from. I also would not expect that a Bini, and with a math doctorate from research in such an abstract area (topology), would be among that small group of Nigerians with a D.Sc as a higher degree if I believed even for a second that Binis were academically deficient to produce a VC.


5. Being Igbo, accomplished and being appointed VC of UNN is a greater achievement than being from a group (Bini) which was and is only 1/50th of Nigeria's population (if you actually believe that Nigeria's population is now nearly 150 million and you assume the Binis are nearly 3 million) and is vastly outnumbered  by other groups - several of which have equally high drive for educational attainment - and then managing to become VC of a university in the Middle Belt as early as 1978? I doubt that. If anything, it's the other way around.

6. Regarding Dr, Chike Onwuachi, that's good, but it's a bit tangential to my specific grouse against your mention of university VCs. I could bring up the fact that the first president of the Nigerian Society of Engineers was G.O. Aiwerioba (another Bini), but it would be completely tangential to my point. If I wanted to go off on a tangent, I could talk about people like Osagie Imasogie, Professor Osato Giwa Osagie, Osaze Osifo, and many others, but I am not here to produce a list of Bini achievers as I would necessarily be handicapped in producing such a list by the fact that I am a) much younger and b) somewhat out of the loop and c) not really interested in engaging Binis in the useless bragging competitions that Igbos and Yorubas on this website (nairaland) frequently engage in. So I am not going to segue into any real name dropping competition. I only brought up Dr. Emovon because any claim or insinuation of academic deficiency against Binis would have to be measured against the reality of the fact that he got a Ph.D at such an early time, and in a fundamental subject (chemistry) before anybody else from any other group.

7. Your other statements about Prof Dike and Prof Njoku would be more relevant in a debate about academic achievement between the Igbo and a group of equally large size. In all honesty those two areas (history and botany) are not sufficiently challenging/difficult (in my opinion, but probably also to most other people studying the "hard" sciences) to the point where anyone could even make insinuations about any academic superiority by producing Ph.Ds in those areas before another group. I would only chalk that up to a population advantage. It's obviously not the case that a group which is one-tenth of the size of another group will produce as many academics so there are just more people to draw on. And like I said earlier, the Binis were initially behind in education in the colonial era, so it's surprising that Emovon was such an early Ph.D to begin with and that you have not listed anyone from Anioma who was the first in a whole academic field (not a sub-field) despite their educational head start of many years. I'm sure if you dig deep enough you can find someone, but it's surprising that you would have to do so despite your perspective on some sort of superiority in achievements. It's also quite telling that a Bini man beat any Anioma man to earn two doctorates in the mathematical sciences (Dr. Iyahen) and is the first Nigerian to earn a D.Sc (as a higher doctorate than a Ph.D) in any of the mathematical sciences.

I am not privy to compare whatever publication by Prof Osagie and Prof Nwanze and make comparisons between them and I dont think you have either.I am therefore challenging you to provide the source of the claim that Prof Osagie is a more accomplished scholar.Perhaps he is outstanding to the Benin people considering the late entry to the British created educational arrangement( let me use your language).

1. Regarding Dr. Athony Osagie: "Outstanding"? I didn't go that far. Unfortunately, there are really only a limited number scholars out of Nigeria that can truly be called outstanding in their field (in all honesty). In his specific area of his field, he is important, but about his standing in biochemistry in general, I did not make any particular claim as I am not knowledgeable enough about biochemistry to make any particular claim. What I said was that it is a fact that he has many more publications and citations than Professor Nwanze, but I am not claiming that appointments are made based on that fact alone. I know that there are other factors involved, such as seniority, contributions to the university, etc. My point is that on an academic basis they are not on the same tier and that is why Professor Osagie is a former head of the biochemistry department and a past president of Nigeria's biochemistry society, while Dr. Nwanze, who is also a biochemist, is a past president of no such organization. Consequently one cannot claim that Osagie was academically deficient or inferior for the position, just as one cannot claim that he did not have seniority (which he did and he was even a founding faculty member of Uniben).


For the source of publications and citations there are multiple websites one can use:

a) ISI Web of Knowledge (Thomson Reuters) <---- not easily accessible, need a subscription to properly use it

b) Google scholar <---- easily useable, a simple search for "A Osagie" and "E Nwanze" should answer your question

c) Scopus <---- need to register

4)The first primary school in Benin was founded in 1900; just a year older than the first primary school founded in Igbodo my home town(c. 1901).The claim that this school in Benin is unfounded and yet one of your lies I am exposing a usual.The first school of such if I should give it such a title was founded in Aboh in 1841 during the reign of Obi Ossai(c 1826-44).This was the year Christainity first came to Igboland and was introduced by Bishop Crowther and Silas Jonah(a native speaker of Igbo) both of them were ex slaves.It was following the death of Obi Ossai in 1844 that forced the Mission to relocate to Onitsha in 1856 where it survived.Unlike the Aboh mission that was unsustainable, the mission and schools in Onitsha expanded and schools were introduced in Asaba in 1875 first by the CMS mission and a year later by the Catholic Mission.Therefore we have had schools for a qtr of a century before it got to Benin.

Ha ha ha, once again the "lie" you exposed was due to a simple error of omission. You got lucky there. I was actually the one who posted a book link in an earlier post which even said how slaves in the Delta Igbo area in the late 1800s (before 1900) were the most enthusiastic about embracing Western education to save them from the abuses and sacrifices that they had been subjected to by their chiefs and owners. So I was not unaware of missionary schools as I had read that even before this came up, but this question of why they had schools (missionary schools) a quarter of a century earlier, but didn't beat the Binis so hands down educationally is very interesting. Those UN reports on Nigeria that you love so much consistently put Edo state ahead of Delta state with regard to "educational index" (I'm not saying that this statistic is in any way reliable, but you seem to think these reports are truly accurate).

5) So if the St Thomas College Ibusa was not a secondary School , What was it then ? Because the school still exists in the town and it is a secondary school(the teacher training facilities have been converted to the present Federal Girls College in the town).The Anioma people contributed a lot to propagate the Catholic faith and education in the Midwest region and beyond.I wont be suprised if the said Mr Molokwu did not pass via the college.The first indigenous Catholic Bishop within the Midwest Bishop Nwaezeapu of Warri a native of that town is an example of what the Anioma people gave back to the Mission.You cannot say that the Kings College in Lagos is older than CMS Bariga both are secondary schools except you want to interpret your understanding of secondary schools to mean Govt secondary schools which has never been the case.I will also like to add that the first skills acquisition centre in the Midwest was established in Asaba in 1898.This was the Rural training Institute which has metamorphosized into the present Asaba campus of DELSU(after many years as College of Agriculture).If I were as desparate like you to prove a point I would have I would have claimed that this institution was the oldest secondary school in the Midwest and I can back it up with reasonable points( or propaganda as you think) to back it up.

1. Where did I say the Ibusa teachers training college was not a secondary school? I know what "college" means in Nigeria and what it refers to. Don't misquote me.

2. I'm pretty sure that some Itsekiri embraced Catholicism, long before Bishop Nwaezeapu, though they probably didn't think they could have produced a Bishop in the 1600s (and they probably couldn't have), so there was no way the Itsekiri (who were small in terms of population) could have competed with other groups once it was possible for other groups to embrace it. I still don't think most Binis are Catholic (just from my experiences) so we don't really enter into that whole Catholic thing. Yes the Catholics really helped you guys. A lot. And I mean a lot. And in case you don't get it, I mean a LOT. There's no disagreement on my part here.


3. When did I say Kings College, Lagos is older than some other school (CMS Bariga, in your example)? I don't even care. I said "like Kings College" to point out that Oba Eweka II not only initiated the request for a school, but that he had standards for the school, because of the school his son had attended.

4. Ha ha ha, Skills acquisition center as a secondary school? This is funny. Okay, well in 1898, there could not have been a skills acquisition center in a place (Benin) where nobody really spoke any English and when there were still rebel Bini chiefs nearby. If you want to claim anything and everything is a secondary school now, it's your cup of tea. I wouldn't even get into such a silly argument.

6)I wonder the fuss ver the flogging of the Iyoba, This is our own version of what happened.To you it sounds silly but to me it is a part of our history.After all , your Egharevba told the world in his controversial publication that the Obis of Agbor and Ubulu Uku were beheaded just to uphold the "glory" of the Benin empire eventhough such stories donot even exist amongst our people.Even the great Zik whose Edo ancestrythe Benin's are proud of (let me use your language) was more diplomatic in his account in his book My Odyssey published after the war.He said and quote me that the Kings mother ie the Iyoba was "assaulted" for trampling over the farmlands of Eze Chime.I will advice you go read the book.

On the Iyoba fable, ha ha ha, don't worry. I'll analyze that Iyoba story thoroughly after I comment on that Agboghidi story. I've already spotted errors in the Iyoba story. As for this or that king being beheaded, Egharevba also said that Oba Ohen, a weak and bad king of Benin, was killed by the Benin people for his crimes. It was the same Chief Jacob Egharevba who said that Oba Obanosa, originally a very wise king (a "Godly king" - the source of his coronation name) had petty disputes with rivals that led to his downfall. The same Jacob Egharevba is the primary source for the fact the Igala military severly tested Benin's might. The same Jacob Egharevba wrote these things and you're here telling me that Egharevba had too much pride to record history without elevating the prestige of Benin! And you were accusing me of selective use of sources. Hilarious. And accusing Jacob Egharevba of "excessive" Benin pride really is one of the most ludicrous things I have seen on this thread. Egharevba was proud of his heritage, but "excessive"? That's just unwarranted.

@Physics.
Ali, ana or ala or mean the same thing in Igbo language. In Anambra and Oshimiri/Anaocha in Delta state, they use ana for land. In parts of Ika/Ukwuani and Rivers Igbo, they use Ali while in Imo/Abia, land is Ala.
Oza nagogo people do not wish to move out of Anioma to elsewhere unlike in Igbanke, a people that for ages resisted their inclusion in Edo state. They are IkaIgbo and has always demanded to join their kins in Anioma.

Thanks for the correction on the meaning of the Igbo word "ali" but I disagree completely with the statement about Oza nogogo and Anioma. All I see coming from Oza nogogo are a legion of complaints. Virtually every site on Oza nogogo that you can find has some complaint about marginalization by their Ika neighbors and a desire to be reunited with the Oza community in Edo state and also, usually a (contrasting) emphasis on their Benin, non-Igbo origins. This is why I asked what people who had been there and knew the area thought about the claims made online - because the statements from actual Oza nogogo people online were painting a pretty bad picture and they seemed very unhappy with their situation. Instead of any direct comment on the claims and accusations, I was presented with an allegation that it was all one big conspiracy to wrest mineral royalties in Oza nogogo from the Agbor kingdom and give the royalties to the Oza nogogo people. Even if such a claim were true (and given the nature of the specific complaints I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that it's really all about mineral royalties) there's not even anything wrong with those mineral royalties going directly to Oza nogogo anyway.

And their names and everything about them (except for one or two titles) is all Bini, so I don't see why they (Ikas of Agbor) insist on holding on to them but simultaneously criticize any other kingdom as expansionist.

Somebody was blaming the british for the emergence of igbo VCs in uniibadan and unilag in the early years,the british favoured the igbos he said, ahead of his lazy people,really? So they are now blaming the british for their own shortcomings,perhaps its the british that is responsible for their region being the poorest in the south,these people are shameless.
The british chose igbos because we are the best available,they chose us because of our gusto,bravery and finesse,this is the same reason ndiigbo still dominates any thing where quota system,federal character,and indigene stuff doesnt apply.
The british were all for meritocracy,and when meritocracy is enthroned,only one group were bound to win,and we all know the group,gosh! Even the british knows.

Ndiigbo have never really controlled the central government,zik was only but a figure head(ceremonial government) in a parlimentary system,where the power was with the prime minister,Irons's government was only for seven months,so pray tell,how did ndiigbo ruin nigeria.


On the contrary from 1970 downwards,we had a succession of greedy and incompetent elements from the north and the south at the helm of affairs of the country,obasanjo's tenure witnessed rise in oil prices in the world market,babangida regime witnessed the gulf windfall,what does nigeria have to show for these,nothing,thanks to yoruba and the north leadership qualities,ane "nuclear" societal attributes,supprisingly, these two regions are the poorest in the country.


"Igbos were much more pliant and respond with far less resistance to the oyibo man's interest and purpose on land, "


Once again you lie,even a secondary school student who studies government knows better.
Ndiigbo especially the eastern ones practiced a merit based republic,there was no king,this system was complex,in the north and the west,because the people are used to centralized system of government,the white man had it easy,all he did was get the emirs and obas to be answerable to him,but in igboland there was no king,hence he had to appoint warrant chiefs which did not go down well with igbos,and when he decided to introduce the tax system,the aba women riot broke out,ever heard of "aya ekumeku" of the western igbo.I hate it when people that know nothing about ndiigbo come to say what they don't know,no nigerian tribe was more resistant to the british than ndiigbo.
Ndiigbo always make out the best out of every defeat,when we lost to the british,we embraced her ways and made out the best of the supposedly bad situation,similar to when we lost out to nigeria,we embraced her and made out the best out of her,after the war,we didn't sit back in our town villages,rather we moved en mass to north and west,today the "losers" are better of than the "winners"Ndiigbo have never really controlled the central government,zik was only but a figure head(ceremonial government) in a parlimentary system,where the power was with the prime minister,Irons's government was only for seven months,so pray tell,how did ndiigbo ruin nigeria.


On the contrary from 1970 downwards,we had a succession of greedy and incompetent elements from the north and the south at the helm of affairs of the country,obasanjo's tenure witnessed rise in oil prices in the world market,babangida regime witnessed the gulf windfall,what does nigeria have to show for these,nothing,thanks to yoruba and the north leadership qualities,ane "nuclear" societal attributes,supprisingly, these two regions are the poorest in the country.


"Igbos were much more pliant and respond with far less resistance to the oyibo man's interest and purpose on land, "


Once again you lie,even a secondary school student who studies government knows better.
Ndiigbo especially the eastern ones practiced a merit based republic,there was no king,this system was complex,in the north and the west,because the people are used to centralized system of government,the white man had it easy,all he did was get the emirs and obas to be answerable to him,but in igboland there was no king,hence he had to appoint warrant chiefs which did not go down well with igbos,and when he decided to introduce the tax system,the aba women riot broke out,ever heard of "aya ekumeku" of the western igbo.I hate it when people that know nothing about ndiigbo come to say what they don't know,no nigerian tribe was more resistant to the british than ndiigbo.
Ndiigbo always make out the best out of every defeat,when we lost to the british,we embraced her ways and made out the best of the supposedly bad situation,similar to when we lost out to nigeria,we embraced her and made out the best out of her,after the war,we didn't sit back in our town villages,rather we moved en mass to north and west,today the "losers" are better of than the "winners"

Understand the difference between blame (culpability) and attribute (iability). Nobody blamed British!

With your meritocracy, how is it when it came to running a successful political system. . . merit failed you.

Igboland is not rich but you are conceited to believe it is because of your individual success in commerce. Let me analyze it for you.

You are like the sixth generation enterprise group in Lagos. Before you the Hausas, Ijebus, Ilorins (Oro), Ijesa, Lebanese . . All these different groups came to Lagos and traded and succeeded with their businesses. Rarely anybody know this because they don't run around wearing their ego on their shoulder - "hey, look we are the richest people in Nigeria". All of igbo combined has not made half the wealth of a quarter successful poppulation of an Hausa trader in Yorubaland. I am yet to hear Hausa man tell anyone about his wealth.

Long while igbo was still in its age of darkness, Hausa man has thrived in Ibadan, Ogbomoso, Ilorin, Offa, Obalende, Idi Araba and so on. The Ijebus had Palmgrove and Iddo and Idumota loc down. The Oros had Ereko, Ilubirin and Ehin Igbeti, Oshodi, Apapa all locked down. Igbo came to scrap change on the market and started making noise.

Let me give you something to bring tears to your eyes.

All those people that came before you were much smarter you. You claim top brilliance but you are truly dumb. These other people made their money, built a moderate home in the land and remitted the rest back home to invest in much bigger things. Igbo on the other hand made money and built mansions all over foreign soil.

You want to know who is truly rich, the owners of the land you built your mansions on. Your true property is the mansion and the deed to the land (lease).

If your deed to the land is revoked your mansion is worth zero. That's how far your ineptitude in simple matter of politics has become.
Keep getting richer and build more mansions in foreign land instead of investing them in Igboland.

Market women riots happened everywhere in Nigeria. It is not a unique event to igboland.

I'm talking about giving some exceptional instances of political resistance or insurbordination to the British status Quo. You have none! So shut up about some market women riot in Aba or Umuhaia or wherever that was.

Give us some parallels of sacked Obi or ruler that was dethroned as a penlty for challenging Britain or the like of Mrs Kuti, Madam Tinubu or Awo.

Market women rioted in Markurdi, Bini, Lagos, Ibadan, Akure, that was common! Be exceptional in your resistance to the invaders if you dare!

You were pliant and submissive, hence your rewarding positions.

You came top brilliance but in every decision making situation you fail to exercise good judgement.

Failed in coup, failed in negotiations, failed in war, failed to moe country forward when every strategic position was in your monopoly.

. . . .And you wonder why the rest of country is not secure and trusting in giving Igbo the Presidency. You are not a dominant force, but you lack credibility for success.

Negro_Ntns:

Understand the difference between blame (culpability) and attribute (iability). Nobody blamed British!

With your meritocracy, how is it when it came to running a successful political system. . . merit failed you.

Igboland is not rich but you are conceited to believe it is because of your individual success in commerce. Let me analyze it for you.

You are like the sixth generation enterprise group in Lagos. Before you the Hausas, Ijebus, Ilorins (Oro), Ijesa, Lebanese . . All these different groups came to Lagos and traded and succeeded with their businesses. Rarely anybody know this because they don't run around wearing their ego on their shoulder - "hey, look we are the richest people in Nigeria". All of igbo combined has not made half the wealth of a quarter successful poppulation of an Hausa trader in Yorubaland. I am yet to hear Hausa man tell anyone about his wealth.

Long while igbo was still in its age of darkness, Hausa man has thrived in Ibadan, Ogbomoso, Ilorin, Offa, Obalende, Idi Araba and so on. The Ijebus had Palmgrove and Iddo and Idumota loc down. The Oros had Ereko, Ilubirin and Ehin Igbeti, Oshodi, Apapa all locked down. Igbo came to scrap change on the market and started making noise.

Let me give you something to bring tears to your eyes.

All those people that came before you were much smarter you. You claim top brilliance but you are truly dumb. These other people made their money, built a moderate home in the land and remitted the rest back home to invest in much bigger things. Igbo on the other hand made money and built mansions all over foreign soil.

You want to know who is truly rich, the owners of the land you built your mansions on. Your true property is the mansion and the deed to the land (lease).

If your deed to the land is revoked your mansion is worth zero. That's how far your ineptitude in simple matter of politics has become.
Keep getting richer and build more mansions in foreign land instead of investing them in Igboland.

quite igbo land is the richest we have oil and oil is the currency of the world

The whole coastal land outside of igbo territory has oil as well.

Give me something else Alhaji. Lol!

Besides, igboland is landlocked! Without access to sea their oil will buried underground untill the world has moved on to another global currency.

Negro_Ntns:

The whole coastal land outside of igbo territory has oil as well.

Give me something else Alhaji. Lol!

Besides, igboland is landlocked! Without access to sea their oil will buried underground untill the world has moved on to another global currency.

yes o from the coast of lagos to part of cameroun

the only reason they don't claim the ocean is because of tribalism from the world

you see, the world knows how productive igbos are and have invented laptops, aeroplanes etc and the world is jealosy of them

Its a conspiracy and jealousy to kill their bravery and brilliance and prosperity. We need human rights organization to investigate !

Loud mouthed fools coming behind everybody else and thinking they are owed respect.

Bini Empire should have done to them what Oyo did to Dahomey. They were lucky they didn't border into Oyo empire, they will be ruled by an Oba instead of Obi.

Negro_Ntns:

Its a conspiracy and jealousy to kill their bravery and brilliance and prosperity. We need human rights organization to investigate !

Loud mouthed fools coming behind everybody else and thinking they are owed respect.

Bini Empire should have done to them what Oyo did to Dahomey. They were lucky they didn't border into Oyo empire, they will be ruled by an Oba instead of Obi.

ah, have u heard of the aro warriors, na die u wan die

@Physica MHD
1) Is this the lenghty reply you have been bragging about ?  Hahaha, Look this lenghty post of yours is just empty. The first is to claim "Ali" is not Igbo.In Agbor kingdom many communities follow the prefix such as Alibudo, Alihame, Aliagwai, Alisimie and so on. And in the Ozarra cluster we have Alilehan and Alisor which though speak the Ozara dialect (principally derived from Edo) also have that prefix indicating that this cluster one of the several that constitute the Agbor kingdom have been assimilated. Alibudo also within this cluster does not even speak the Ozara dialect.
Going through the names of the villages of the Oza Nogogo community, it will be discovered that they are just as named as other vilages in Agbor.Take the prefix "Idumu" it is equally used in Agbor even up to Asaba.In Agbor there is an Idumuoza community.In Igbodo there are Idumuobior and Idumuozei villages.In Asaba clan is an Idumugbe village.There is nothing unique about Benin in that word IDUMU though it is most likely that it was borrowed from the Edo language.The point is that Ozara does not have peculiarity with tht prefix.There are villages like Ihogbe, Ihaikpen(Ehaikpen), Ogbe Iwase(Ewaise) and so on in Agbor town ! Yet these communities according to you are core Ika(Igbo) communities.In Ikaland we donot make such distinctions especially as it relates with the place names we adopted from Benin.This is a weak arguement.As usual you have been corrected with the word "Ali"
Different parts of Igboland have their names for land
Ala is mainly Southern Igbo(Imo and Abia States)
Ani(is mainly Northern Igbo Anambra and most parts of Anioma and Enugu state)
Ana is mainly used in the Awka area
Ali is mainly used in parts of Rivers and Delta States
Eli is used by a few Ikwerre communities
They all mean the same thing.
On the use of the name "OHEN" as priests in Ozara, these are as well the names used in the whole of Aniomaland as priests.In my hometown Igbodo, we call the priest of our deity "Mkpitime" Ohene Mkpitime, in Ibusa they call the priestess of the Oboshi river "Ohene Oboshi" , as you move westwards the word Ohene is reduced to Ohen giving it a Benin like word which you have used as yardstick of your baseless arguements.

Nobody says a few Ozara people feel disgruntled with the imperial power at Ime Obi Agbor even other villages like Emuhu, Oki  and Ekuku Agbor also share these sentiments and they are insisting that power should be devolved into these outlying districts of the kingdom.It is therefore not peculiar to Ozara.While it is fine for these citizens of Oza Nogogo to make complains some of which are genuine I insist that these sentiments is not the position of most Ozara natives.Those who wrote whatevr on the net were at least sincere enough to note that Ozara HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF AGBOR KINGDOM.The inclusion of Ozara in Agbor is not a creation of the colonialists , it has always been there becase they were granted those lands by the Obi of Agbor who conferred on their leader the Ogisi title or else you are saying tht Ozara was founded at the threshold of the colonial period which of course cant be true.
It was those who crossed the Orhiomwon river and moved into Benin like Ozanisi that can be convenient be group as subjects of the Oba and the Agbor people have never laid claims to those communties eventhough they migrated from a part of Agbor kingdom.I doubt if you ahve been to Ozara.Along the Ossiomo river are ancient Egbo trees(called Ikhimwin in Edo) making the boundaries between Agbor and Benin and these trees extend up to Alifekede(an Agbor village) to Ogan(a Benin village) forming a continous chain and this has been the case for centuries.If Ozara and Ozanisi had been one commnuity then there wont be the presence of those trees since both are supposed to be kith and kin.If those disgruntled elements want to cross the Ossiomo river like those kith and kin that did several centuries ago to share the privelege of being directly under the Oba , they are free.Nobody will stop them.
I use Ozara rather than Oza Nogogo for the sake of convenience both of them refers to the same community.There is no discrimination of names in Agbor kingdom.
Now on those of Ika backgrounds which to your thoughts are "reasonable" in declaring that Ozara is Benin are more or less the purifists in Ikaland.Try and check the background of those and you will discover that they are not even from Agbor kingdom.Ikaland has many clans and many of us bearly know much about the history and orientation of others.No Agbor man (because this Ozara issue has been in court severally) would say Ozara is not a part of Agbor.If the claim of this Ozara seperatists is anything to take seriously why then did they say Awo recommended that Ozarra be considered a distinct clan ? When was that the case? Because it is a complete fabrication.Awo had all the power to grant Ozara a status of a clan of such a claim if it ever existed since he was the all powerful Premier of the Western Region.
My position is that Igbanke prior to colonial rule was not even a part of Benin kingdom.I earlier asked one simple question, If indeed Igbanke had always been a part of Benin kingdom why then did the Oba create so many Enogie titles in one town ? I challenge you to name just one community in Benin kingdom with such a feature.I also noted that I dont have any problems with Ozara merging with their kith and kin as part of a "final deal" (If I should be a purifist like those "reasonable'' Ikas) under one condition that not only should Igbanke be merged to her kith and kin but other Ika settlements founded on Benin lands( just as Ozara was founded on Agbor land) like Iru, Igbogiri, Owa Iriuzor(styled Evbo Obanosa), and several others, then I have no problem with that.Ultimately it will be the Benins that will loose more territory.

2)"Esan people are still claiming Ekpon" So what is the big deal with this ? I know that too well but the issue is not Ekpon people claiming to be Esan which should be a more sensible post.In the same manner these Esan groups claim Inyelen eventhough nothing like "ny" exists in the Esan dialect ! Like I always say Igbodo and Ekpon share boundaries and I think I am in the best position to define where Ekpon actually belongs.In the past it could be debatable  not anymore.I have been to Ekpon cultural festivals , I have seen their dances and other socio-political events, And I can categorically tell you Ekpon is an Ika clan.Most people are just ignorant of this(including the Esan groups who are themselves not Ekpon people).I am aware that Ekpon and Igbanke people have severally informed the Anioma people to be involved in their(ie our) cultural week which climaxes every Easter.We were not the people who intiated this.
On the said Idemudia, I have seen what was written, That is an Ekpon man for you ! Nobody from Ekpon who trully knows his background will call himself an Esan man.He even wrote something in the Ekpon variant of the Ika dialect.I would have done something similar in Igbodo variant and you will see the similarity.On the name "Idemudia", Like I said the Anioma bear a lot of Edo names just like the Nsukka people bear many Igala names.These are features you will usually find along cultural boundaries.Ekpon is not peculiar in that regard.Except you were  biased tou should have seen the title of the present Obi of Owa (himself of Nri origin) is it  not Efeizomor ? Was his predecessors not bearing names identical with titles borne by previous Obas ? So what is the big deal.Were you not here when I noted that Iyeke was the title borne by the Obis of Igbodo ? Or you never saw that post by me ? Please when you make your arguements be a little more objective.The position of Idemudia settles any debate on the status of Ekpon.
The ethnographic boundaries of Rivers people is well defined.The Ikwerre, Ekpeye, Ogba, Ndoni(an Anioma people), Etche and Obigbo(Ndoki) are clearly Igboid and no Igbo organisation has ever claimed beyond these areas.Since you have read Talbot so well and have even educated me on his family including his wife, I would believe that his publication which was authority for you when you declared that the claim of human sacrifice in Benin was "over blown" yet you did not deem it fit to be sincere to admit that in the same book the writer with compeling reasons clearly group these communities as part of Igboland.I do understand that political units loose territories if you loose a war.Then with that understanding I will agree that these communities for POLITICAL not ETHNOGRAPHICAL reasons should be as "non-Igbo". I am not aware that Igbos have ever laid claims to other peoples in the present Rivers State.Evn Port Harcourt once claimed to be "Ijaw" , the creation of Bayelsa State exposed the lies associated with such irresponsible claims.Of the present Port Harcourt LGA, there are 17 wards with only two given to the large Okirika and Kalabari people at the Water fronts.I am not making any reference to the larger Obio-Akpor LGA or the suburbs such as Igwuruta and Aluu(Ikwerre), Umuebele(Etche) or Obigbo.Ever wonder what Rumu means ? It means children and in Central Igbo we call it Umu.Besides the interior Ikwerre( derogatively called Azu Mba) call it Umu just like other Igbos.This is what you dont know.Igbos can never claim Okirika, Kalabari, Ogoni, Ibani or Bonny (which is actually Igbo speaking), Abua or Andoni lands because they are not Igbos despite the large percentage of people claiming Igbo ancestry in those places.Let me give a notable example the present Harry family of Harry's town in Kalabari say they are of Igbo origin and in Kalabari customs they coronate all Amanyanabos of Kalabari kingdom.

3)
a)There are no Benins in Gelegele(actually called Giligili by the Ijaws)  rather the supposed Benins ae those who are from the neighbouring village of Ughoton , a community which acted as a seaport and a station for the worship of Olokun deity and this was why in the said court cases involving the Benins and Ijaws it was deemed as Ughoton(Benin) vs Gelegele(Ijaw) over Gelegele land.I will not dwell much on this Gelegele issue because the land (just like the Ozara in Agbor) has been won and lost in the courts though most Ijaws believe it was controversial ( the Obaseki factor as they see it) What I will accept is that the present Oduna ward is shared between the Ijaws and Benins whose villages are constituted into this ward.
b)Personally I think Okomu was founded on Benin territory this is my personal opinion since the said Okomu is not too aquatic for Ijaws to have a strong and unchallenged foothold in the area.I also donot think just one settlement would constitutte a clan in the Ijaw area considering the dispersed anture of their settlements.
c)On the Egbema claim, I think it is valid if it is seen from the ecological perspective.The Oba is the ruler of the lands just as the Pere is the ruler of the waters.Nobody has equated the priest king of the Egbema to the Omonoba in this regard.The Oba ranks higher than any ruler in the Midwest including the various Obis of Anioma land.But ranking of monarchs does not amount to tiltle to land.These are different issues.You cannot say because the Oba is ranked higher than say Abavo kingdom in Ikaland then this community should be considered as tenants or as a part of Benin kingdom.There are obvious ecological differences.The Benins are not known to found permanent settlements in swampy terrain being principally a land dwelling people.This explains why there are no Benin settlements in the Egbema area nor are there any court cases which has defined the area as Benin land.Also, look at the map, you will see that the Egbema territory is contiguous  is Arogbo Ijaw territory who are also victims of claim by their neighbours.However unlike the issue between the Benin and Egbema people, there own issue have been decided in the courts with the Arogbo emrging victorious using this same ecological differences as the foundation of their arguements in court.

d) So Uyiekpen Akenzua is the Enogie of "Obayantor" tnks any way for the correction.I thought it was Edun.I will not want to dwell much on wht you think is the history of Ikoro because your account is based more or less on speculation.I have always noted tht the most important authority in unwritten history is the genealogical records of the area.If this was the criteria used by the prominent Ijwa historian it would most possibly be the case.The claim of an "Obayantor Dukedom" even over territories not proven in the courts as Benin's is expansionist.

e)For Furupagha(Siluko area) these Ijaw people occupy the territory to the North of the Egbema and Arogbo and occupy the river in both the Edo and Ondo axis.I am not aware that they are claiming Siluko which is nonetheless a majority Ijaw settlement.Because if they are they would have insisted that Siluko not Jide should have been hqtrs.Unlike the case in Benin secion of Furupagha, the Ondo section has been settled and no one in that axis has been making any allegation of deprivation or marginalization.

f)The Ijaws of Ovia South West are in three electoral wards I therefore think the list of communities listed is far from being inconclusive.

g)I agree that there ae even more untapped oil resources in territories in the Benin areas but the untapped resources in the Ijaw areas is far from being fully attained.

4)Your thesis on the Ado name is revealing and I am convinced that it could have been of a more ancient origin than the 15th century I had earlier thought considering the fact that Benin have had a long history with the Yorubas and both should have had names for themselves.What I will not however accept is to ascribe a pre-Ogiso claim to the Urhobo name "Aka" Why ? Because genealogy of the Urhobo clans dodnot seem to suggest the oldest Urhobo-Isoko clans ie Abraka and Erohwa to be earlier than the 14th century in which Ogbeka was the Oba.

5)I the claim with particular reference to the Ekhor moats being dug in the 8th century is divisionary.There was no specification to this section of the moats nor was it specified that the moats which were dug in the western axis were first dug to wade off invaders from Udo.Like you noted these moats dates from the 8th century, it could have been that extentions in the outlying districts were made after those kingdoms had been founded.I also donot share your claim that the Benins were unaware that these kingdoms ie Agbor and Ubulu Uku were in existence in the 10th century.Let me also make this point there are countless records suggesting that around Agbor is an aboriginal Igbo community which had been in existence for thousands of years.I will suggest you make further reseaarch on this point before you "poison" us further with your arranged claims.


@Exothief,
1)Oh I insulted your dad, sorry but that is the usual insult rendered by ill trained Benin children which you are obviously one of them.Like I say I know my lineage and I can trace it to one of the founders of our community and  members of  my family  are always the recipient of the Isama title of my community(and Iyase at the sub clan level).Na which one be your own ? You dont even have a background.I am sure that you are one of those descendants of slaves assimilated into the Benin kingdom.Go make more research on your background.
Another question , how many men did your mum have issues for ? It is a common phenomenon in Benin for women to have children for multiple partners and since you lack home training you could have been a victim of this .How pathetic !

2)I dont reside in Benin but for a while  I was a resident and that is quite a long time and once in a while I visit some friends some of whom are responsible Benins( unlike you). How can I compare Usen to Asaba ? I don tire ! Is it that town you are proud of ? Damn, that town is backward with that glorified secondary school called "polytechnic" which Lucky used in playing politics.Usen has nothing except it is renowned for witchcraft. Nothing more. Na Usen you take dey make mouth ? I dey laugh, that bush ? Usen is not even up to a sub clan in Igbodo talkless of Asaba.I was not suprise that you are defining the expanse and growth of Benin City.Of course you cant list such bushes like Urhonigbe and Iguosodin-Nigbemaba.At least I have been to these places.Urhonigbe and perhaps Abudu ought to be the largest settlements outside of Benin City, What is the physical condition of those places ? Enough bush and red sand. Every town especially the state capital are expanding rapidly, Benin is no exception in this but ask yourself, considering the fact that Benin was a regional capital since 1963 , it ought to be far developed than the situation at present and you dey here they make mouth, How many factories are in Benin, A town of that size that wholly relies on civil service and remittances sent from overseas.

3)Igbos know their history very well and this reflects in the names of their towns many of which begin with the prefix "Umu'' Every member of the community is supposed to trace his ancestry to who evr was the ancestor the town was named after.It has nothing to do with "Oyibo man", Ok.  History is not just about praise singing the actions and inactions of your Oba,

4)Best private university in Nigeria and what was the yard stick used ? It is a matter which is highly debatable.But what is well known is that your Gov Lucky transferred funds meant for the development of the state to build what is in your eyes the best private university in Nigeria.Most of the best infrastructure in Edo was built during the Midwest/Bendel years when the bulk of the state resources was used in developing Benin at the expense of other communities.When Bendel was divided , the Edo portion seived most of the assets and we had no choice than to start from scratch.This is why after 20 years of separation , Edo can barely boast of  mega projects initiated after the spit in1991.I challenge you to list 10 just 10 of those projects you think can make Edo stand up to Delta initiated after 1991.I can start the list by refering to the Edo House in Abuja(this is not even within the borders of Edo state).You only need to give me 9 more of such remarkable projects.This is inspite of the fact tht the terrain in Edo eevn makes it easier to site these projects.I think you are still in school, Una Edo dey pay bursary ? Because I have heard that many Edos parade themselves as Deltans simply to enjoy what the Delta brand has wth it.

5)"Anioma dry part of Delta" Lol, If your concept of "wet" and "dry" has to do with oil and gas reserves I dont think it should an Edo that will remind an Anioman that his terr is dry. Edo is dry in that regard and the driest of all the oil producing states.What is even sustaining Edo is the human capital and infrastructure devloped during the Bendel years which nonetheless makes it pale when compared to the Anioma people and their land.Now going to the issue of oil and gas.Edo is claiming to be oil producing by merely producing 15,000 bopd of oil in a day compared to 37,000 bopd in the present Anioma axis of Delta State and 33,000 bopd in the Anioma axis of Rivers(Ndoni) giving a total of 70,000 bopd of oil from Anioma land.Now which is drier a state with a land area of 19,000km2 with just 15,000 bopd of oil or a territory spread across 3 states covering an area of 8000km2 producing 70,000 bopd of oil ? At present there is no multi national oil company in Edo apart from the NNPC( we have NAOC) and you are here talking about whose region in drier.For your information because you are so ignorant, Anioma is one of the areas sourced by the Bonny LNG plant for her gas and they will soon start paying derivation for gas.
On the perspective of the Anioma being dry in human capital , I find that laughable because I have said this and I will repeat again, there is not match to the Anioma in the entire Midwest Region in human capital.It is not our fault.We have always loved education and we have always been vey ambtious and this is why we keep producing prominent people in this country and beyond.Some of whom are even big stake holders in the economy.I just came to realise the other day that the only two Nigerian QCs in the United Kingdom Mr Oba Nsugbe and Prof Fidelis Oditah are both natives of Aniomaland and you are here talking about where is dry.If we have so dry we would not been insisting that we want to statnd on our own.
The information I got from some reliable sources is that the problem the Anioma faces as it relates this issue of state creation is from our present state Gov who as an Itsekiri would not want the Anioma who are the only people who can check the excesses of the Urhobo to just leave the state.You will therefore see tht apart from Anioma being more viable than Edo , her continued presence in Delta cannot be attributed to our own making.

6)The only person I need to be grateful to is to God firstly and my parents for giving sound eduaction in spite of the artificial and man made challenges  they faced in this country.I own nothing to Edo people and I will declare that those rants of yours have been returned to you.If there is any place that should show any gratitude , it ought to be the present Delta State for using her resources to sustain Edo for about 28 years and even to the Anioma people for using the superior representation in the civil service of the old Western region that give the Midwest region a solid footing when it was created in 1963.

@Negro_Ntns,
1)People can adjust history to suit whatever idealogy .In the past communism was hailed in Eastern Europe as being superior to the Capitalist idealogy in the west and what those people were fed during the period of communist rule has completely been adjusted especially as the European Union is being expanded eastwards.You/I talk about individuals, yes because the action and inactions of these individuals is as part of the history of those places from whatever perspective you are seeing it from.

2)The issue I am refering to refers to Nigerians themselves not about the World because even some of those combatants in the West are beginning to feel the pinch.Take Adichie's book that is clearly an indictment on the West , yet she was given awards in the same West countries on that same book.Ndigbo are too populated and intellectually sound to be pressured into believing that the war has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing.Not Nigeria or her collaborators in the West.
There is nothing eating Ndigbo here as you put it.As much as the war is seen as "Nigerian history" , It is more significant  as part of Igbo history because the Igbo nation is far older than Nigeria and they were singled out for ethnic cleansing without abundant evidence to prove it.It is not in human character to forget an unpleasnt and bitter past.People can forgive yes, But forget not possible and you implying that Ndigbo should just forget.That one no possible.The anthem of Quebec starts with "Je me Souviens" meaning I remember and you know what they were forcefully just like Ndigbo lumped to Canada by   the same  imperial Britain.If it is so easy to "forget" they would not have created such a verse.So why should the case of Ndigbo which is even more recent be different ? And to make matters worse , the Igbos were deliberately strangulated economically with the markets of Aba and Onitsha filled up at that time with traders of Yoruba origin because had little or no capital to start their businesses after the war.

3)I have read how rebellion the Yoruba were to the imperial and colonial power Britain.Yorubas need to be grateful to the British for establishing the first uiversity in Nigeria.So it was the British that advised the Yorubas from recruiting into the military ? Because this is largely done with one's decision and not an imposed one.I am refering you to the  American Library of Congress write up on Nigeria.You are therefore free to see those who are the stooge of the British and those with  that  foresight to take their needs elsewhere.I saw it in reference to the founding of UNN in contrast to other regional universities that still looked up to the British model.I therefore wonder who was more dependant.
The nature  Igbo man is that he is very receptive to new ideas and cultures and if he thinks there are new ideas which would be to advance his life , he easily adopts it . It is such dynamism that makes Igbos unique and very advanced because ultimately people are bound to change especially in this globalised world whether we like it or not.The nature of the Igbo man is further demonstrated with the fact that they sold more slaves than other peoples of Nigeria yet their culture did not make much impression in the new World thoughy caused by the fact tht the British who are the people involved with Ndigbo during the slave trade itself oppressed whatever cultural identity they would have carried from Africa unlike the Yoruba slaves  who were encouraged by their Portuguese and Spanish owners.

4)Those your biblical tale have nothing to do with human history because those points of your cannot be proven.I will advice you go do more research because genetically the Semites are different from Sub Sarahans with major exceptions being the Ethiopians and in Nigeria, the Hausas.

Negro_Nts, oil!? Are you seriou? You put 'Igbo' and 'Oil' in the same sentence? Since when has Igbo been so dependent upon this 'oil'?

Andre Uweh:

@Physics.
Ali, ana or ala or mean the same thing in Igbo language. In Anambra and Oshimiri/Anaocha in Delta state, they use ana for land. In parts of Ika/Ukwuani and Rivers Igbo, they use Ali while in Imo/Abia, land is Ala.
Oza nagogo people do not wish to move out of Anioma to elsewhere unlike in Igbanke, a people that for ages resisted their inclusion in Edo state. They are IkaIgbo and has always demanded to join their kins in Anioma.

The Igbo language is not state based and hence we have variances of land in all states.The Nri word for land is "ani" and it is used in parts of Delta,Enugu and much of Anambra."Ana" is the direct variant."Ali" is the other version of "ani" which I suspect might actually be the oldest word for land.It is used in all the communities in northern abia,parts of western/south Imo and ebonyi.Ikwerre and ogba area of Rivers and Ika area of Delta.Ala which is now more popular because of its adoption during the compilation of standard Igbo is only used in parts of Imo and Southern Abia.It is most popular in the Ngwa/Erche axis.

iguefi, u think u are soundly educated? lol, education has lost its meaning. u are a fool and u are the biggest idiiiot ive ever met on the internet. u went from insulting dad to now insulting mum by asking how many men she has been with? and ive told u where im from, now u want me to tell u my family background. when i tell u that one, u will ask me my surname. when i tell u that one, then u will ask me my name as if dat will change anything and as if your so-called background that u have been purporting is even verifiable and u are not  just lying in the first place like all the lies u have told in this thread especially the killing of your pregnant aunt by nigerian troops. and why won't u call usen bush and glorify anioma communities but when i was in usen i enjoyed electricity that i didn't enjoy in asaba. all the time i have been to asaba, i slept without light. and why won't u say usen poly is a glorified secondary school, idiiots like u were also the ones who tagged edo state uni ekpoma as a glorified secondary sch in those days just to ruin evrything edo and boost your silly deflated ego. go to usen poly and see igbos receiving education in the same so-called glorified secondary sch.

and like i said before, all your so-called development in anioma only looks on paper while nothing is happening on ground. the place is dead, dry and very backward. anioma na bush, and i was surprised when i was in ogwashi not too long, those areas are till the same just like how it has been when my dad was posted there, dead and dry. and i was thinking "wow this place never still change at all" my only consolation was that "well na so nigeria dey be, nothing grows"  and umunede, ubulu-uku, obior are all still dead, nothing dey happen for those areas. in fact u won't even see young adults because all of them don go litter other nigerian cities/towns outside ndigbo coz most of the people don't even look toward east for anything. as wot is the big deal about anioma? or is there another anioma in this country dat is not the one i know? even asaba is still full of bushes and not expanding rapidly, asaba is just like a tiny community that u can drive round within thirty or so minutes and inside the mainland of tiny asaba, na still bush full am. and if benin relies solely on "civil service", why is it expanding? is civil service the reason for expansion? your jealousy nor dey make u see road. and i won't list anything for u, go drive round benin and see for urself since e don tay wey u enter benin reach.

and if edo state is dry, why are there more deltans in edo state than edos in delta? why are deltans not in their state enjoying the "wetness" of the state? the foreman at my site is an agbor man, even the vulcanizer in my neighbourhood that i always thought was an edo person, when he was pumping my tire yesterday, and i asked him what part of edo he is from, to my surprise he said he is from delta and na the anioma part of delta e even from come. why didn't he set shop in asaba or one of the fast growing community in anioma? u are a deluded fool. keep wearing your undp report as a badge of honour and inflating your ego and see if it will change anything.