mrmayor:

Man Determines his Destiny = God is not all Knowing after-all, he didn't know Lucifer would challenge him= he didn't know that his creatures (man) would reject him because man had Freewill to do as he pleases.

God Determines Man's Destiny= Man is not guilty of is actions, God determined in advance that you would disobey, kill, if 6 million Jews were destined to Die then someone (HITLER) was destined to kill them= No Sin.


Take Your Pick

Good point. But consider just these paradoxes for now;

1. Acts 2:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


The event was determined and foreknown, yet the men were inexcusable.

2.Matt. 26:24  

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had

not been born.

The event was determined and foreknown, yet the man (Judas) was inexcusable.

@All.

Men and brethren, what shall we say to these things? That God is unfair? The author of sin? God forbid!!!

mrmayor:


God Determines Man's Destiny= Man is not guilty of is actions, God determined in advance that you would disobey, kill, if 6 million Jews were destined to Die then someone (HITLER) was destined to kill them= No Sin.


Take Your Pick

There will always be sin thats why man is the determiner. God wasn't pleased with Adam and eve thats after sinnig God told them what to do and what not to do. They choose the path they followed and God wasn't the one that told them to eat the forbidden fruit

toba:

I brought it up to u guys if its true or not. Viaro wants to have a good outcome i.e get married, have kids, be successful, have a good later part like that of job and then find himself in the kingdom of God. Who determines this for viaro? viaro himself or God?

Okay, so let viaro make an honest attempt. The way I see it, based on your explanations, it will bring me back to agree largely with 5solas on the sovereignty of God and my responsibility: they both find a warm embrace in my life and experience - which would also agree with what you initially highlighted about both God and man being involved: "I said in the OP that on one hand its God&on the other its man" (post #22).

viaro:

Okay, so let viaro make an honest attempt. The way I see it, based on your explanations, it will bring me back to agree largely with 5solas on the sovereignty of God and my responsibility: they both find a warm embrace in my life and experience - which would also agree with what you initially highlighted about both God and man being involved: "I said in the OP that on one hand its God&on the other its man" (post #22).

Who takes the largest share of responsibility man or God

toba:

Who takes the largest share of responsibility man or God

God exercises His "sovereignty" - viaro has his "responsibilty". The responsibility of man cannot be misconstrued for the sovereignty of God.

5solas:

Good point. But consider just these paradoxes for now;

1. Acts 2:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


The event was determined and foreknown, yet the men were  inexcusable.

2.Matt. 26:24  

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had

not been born.

The event was determined and foreknown, yet the man (Judas) was  inexcusable.

@All.

Men and brethren, what shall we say to these things? That God is unfair? The author of sin? God forbid!!!

In the case of christ, God planned everything from A-Z. Dont let us compare mans destiny to that of christ. Christ can after man destined himself to death as a result of sin. Man choose death as his destiny while God planned life for him through christ.

Limit it to ur self who determines what will become of 5solas?

viaro:

God exercises His "sovereignty" - viaro has his "responsibilty". The responsibility of man cannot be misconstrued for the sovereignty of God.

I agree with u but to a large extent ur responsibilities are sure more than that of God. isn't it through?

toba:

I agree with u but to a large extent your responsibilities are sure more than that of God. isn't it through?

I don't think so. . . unless there's something you may want to explain about how my responsibilities are more than that of God.

There's a question that would remain when all has been said and done:

Ultimately, in whose hands is the destiny of anyone, their hands; or God's?

viaro:

I don't think so. . . unless there's something you may want to explain about how my responsibilities are more than that of God.

Viaro wants to be sin free and not want to end up like solomon or judas, is it God that will help u to achieve this?

Viaro wants a PHD, u need to study hard and get money for material research will God come down to help achieve this? or its like 70% ur responsibility?

toba:

Viaro wants to be sin free and not want to end up like solomon or judas, is it God that will help u to achieve this?

Viaro wants a PHD, u need to study hard and get money for material research will God come down to help achieve this? or its like 70% your responsibility?

   

Psalm127

1Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

toba:

Viaro wants to be sin free and not want to end up like solomon or judas, is it God that will help u to achieve this?

That is an example of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Let me explain:

(1)  God's sovereignty: ONLY GOD is able to set me free from sin.
(2)  Man's responsibility: only if I commit myself to God would that become true in my life.

God would not do the committing of myself to Him - that is hugely my own responsibility, for He has established the foundation of my deliverance: that is in Christ.

Scripture that reminds me of the above: Matthew 19 -
'²⁵When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? ²⁶But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.' (see also Luke 18:26-27).

toba:
Viaro wants a PHD, u need to study hard and get money for material research will God come down to help achieve this? or its like 70% your responsibility?

That is another example of man's responsibility and God's sovereignty. Let me again explain:

(1)  God's sovereignty:  He desires me to pursue a successful career *(Titus 3:14)
(2)  Man's responsibility: it is contingent upon me to study and work hard (1 Thes. 4:11)

If along the line, God has some other plans for me rather than to have a PhD, then in His sovereignty that other plan will come to pass if I heed His call. I cannot point to any verse that says categorically that God definitely has determined me to have a PhD, just as He will not come down to write research papers for me. And if I desire to pursue some other professional qualifications or vocation, I'm also fully responsible to work hard at it - I think same principle applies.

_______

* Ha! Pls and pls. . . I did not type "bosom"! I wanted to shorthand the verse and said "Tit. 3:14" . . I don't know where "bosom" suddenly appeared!

viaro:


* Ha! Pls and pls. . . I did not type "bosom"! I wanted to shorthand the verse and said "Tit. 3:14" . . I don't know where "bosom" suddenly appeared!

Very familiar, it has happened to me before.

Bosom 3:14 actually sounds nice

nuclearboy:

B[b]osom[/b] 3:14 actually sounds nice

haha whats the meaning of this? loooooool

the way i see it God determines but decided to share responsibility with man. God gave man some measure of responsibility and accountability. God cannot ask u for something he did not give you. if God gives you work he also gives you the ability and means to complete it. God single handedly wont take a soul to heaven. neither can man single handedly make heaven. but Man toghether with God can achieve that feat. your righteousness plus God's righteousness is the qualification. i like that scripture quoted by 5solas

John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

i must point out an essential ingredient, factor in this passage and in other scriptures that is often overlooked.

"for without me ye can do nothing"

Christ is not asking you to do it alone
Christ is not asking that he himself is allowed by you to do it alone
Christ is asking that you and him do it together

"for without me ye can do nothing"

i.e/that means that "for with me you can do something"

you and christ can do something together
dont do it alone and don't abandon it for Christ

do something with Christ
this is what is meant when you say WALK WITH GOD and not for God

Gen 5:24 Enoch worked with God and he was not because God took him.

Destiny and Freewill can not exist in the Same Time and Space.

[b]Destiny = Man is a Pun, a victim in a Fight between God and Ex Son Lucife[/b]r. Destiny is a force We can't control, it decides who is Poor, Rich, Educated, Sick, 419er, Even the bible says "He had Chosen us and We didn't Choose him. You don't own your life, just like the lame man in the bible was, his disability  was destined for him so that Jesus would heal and the rest of the world would praise God. Repentance is rubbish because God already knows and choose those who would be going to heaven.

[b]Freewill= God is not all knowing. [/b]Man is responsible for his actions, God doesn't know who is going to heaven, only if you accept his New Best Son Jesus as lord and saviour, If You have the free will to Choose between God and Ex Son Lucifer then God can't be all knowing

@mrmayor, the last part of ur post isnt clear enough. Which side do u belong as regards destiny determiner man or God

I have a problem with the idea of the word “destiny”.   If  future events relating to us are not fixed and unchangeable, then it cannot be defined as destiny.  If you can change your destiny, then it must have been your destiny that you will change your original destiny to your new destiny ==== and so on and on and on ad infinitum!  This means the original “destiny” was not your destiny to begin with!  It is an example of circular reasoning.   Destiny is just one of these meaningless religious ideas which do not make any sense when looked at closely.  Like predestination, prophesy, miracle etc.  It is just a ridiculous idea.

it is man, that is what is called law of reciprocal action, karma, law of sowing and reaping.

whatever a man sows, so shall he reaps, in multiple.

enitan2002:

it is man, that is what is called law of reciprocal action, karma, law of sowing and reaping.

whatever a man sows, so shall he reaps, in multiple.

This comments seems familiar. Which of the 2 do u belong to? Grail or Eckahcar?

I belong to the Grail movement, does that helps in anyway?

enitan2002:

I belong to the Grail movement, does that helps in anyway?

I do listen to a programme on radio by the grail movement all sundays. I asked one of the teachers same question about destiny&he gave the same response u ve given here.
I agree on one hand&disagrees on another.

toba:

I do listen to a programme on radio by the grail movement all sundays. I asked one of the teachers same question about destiny&he gave the same response u ve given here.
I agree on one hand&disagrees on another.

that is why we have free will. you have just exercised yours.