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|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by aletheia(m): 1:14am On Jun 16, 2010
ttalks:But you have no quibbles with. . ."eternal life" as in John 3:16. Aren't you cherry-picking?
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aiōnios] life.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 7:04am On Jun 16, 2010
The eternal life which we've all been used to is still subject to this interpretation issue I pointed out.
Rather than eternal life, it should be "eonian life" which connotes "age-abiding/age-long" life.
The chosen who believe in Christ have this life.
After death, comes their resurrection when Christ returns. They are given immortality which refers to "deathlessness"
which is not a concept of time but rather a state of being.
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Those in Christ will surpass the ages as they come and go.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 10:05am On Jun 16, 2010
Well, I tried to look into the subject and also consulted the link you recommended. On reading the first paragraph, the question that came to mind was: Is God Eternal? I patiently tried to read through to see the author's answer to that question, and this is what I initially found:
Even to God the Scriptures do not ascribe eternity. What need is there to describe Him as eternal? Would it not be almost an affront to use such an epithet of One who must, in order to be God, be eternal?
I haven't read to the end of that article, but I would here at this time ask you directly, ttalks: Is God Eternal? And in what sense? Your would help contextualize our discussion, rather than appealing to what others think.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 10:18am On Jun 16, 2010
There seems to be a serious problem with your assumption, ttalks. If eternal life connotes "age-abiding/age-long", would that not indeed suggest that there would be an end when that 'eternal life' would end? Could you guarantee that when mirrored against John 10:28 -
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
You said indeed concerning the word 'eternal', that: "It does not mean eternal; rather it connotes "age-long/age-abiding", and we know that ages do have beginnings and do have ends." Hence, perhaps you might help unravel the mystery as to the 'end' of 'eternal life'.
However, if we follow your reasoning about 'eternal life', there seems to immediate be a contradiction. One the one hand, you noted that 'eternal' connotes 'age-long' and does have an end. As such, it would basically mean that it does not continue to exist forever. If that is so, how do you reconcile the idea of something that does not last because it has an "end" and another that has no end because it is immortal?
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 10:19am On Jun 16, 2010
I post links to others who think along the same lines I'm thinking to buttress my points.
as regards your question; "Is God eternal?" ,
my answer would be this:
God is the eonian God; meaning he is the God of the ages, tha age-abiding God.
He makes/creates the ages and abides through them.
Eternal is not a proper concept so I can't really place him as eternal(since the word is definitely foreign to original scripture).
He is not dependent on the ages to be; he exists outside and within the ages.He exists beyond all/any concept of time(which unfortunately, "eternal" falls within i.e. time).
Now, I know I have somehow been sidetracked from my postings on what this "Lake of Fire" is supposed to be.
I will get back to that but can't say when at the moment cos i'm going to be offline for a while.
I'll also give some examples to show that this "eternal" or "everlasting" which we're all used to do have some culmination/end at some point.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 11:37am On Jun 16, 2010
Although I would agree with you that some examples in Scripture on the words "eternal/everlasting" have reference to a beginning and age. However, the problem here is that many people want to take this "some" and apply them across board to make all occurences of the word 'eternal/everlasting' to be the same for all! This was why I asked you directly if that also applies to God - if God is not Eternal, what then is He? To say that 'eternal' connotes 'age'long' and has an "end" would make some of us wonder if you have carefully examined the claims of the links you recommend in light of Scripture.
If you can't place God as being Eternal, then what would be the implication of an "age-abiding" God, in the sense of your "age-long" also having reference to beginnings and ends (your quote earlier: "ages do have beginnings and do have ends"?!?
Between all expressions, even if I am open to the possibility that I'm not quite following your meaning, at the very least it would seem that those who decline the word 'Eternal' yet do not have any concrete alternative rendition - and the interpolation of "age-long/age-abiding" does not help, if indeed you have noted that "ages do have beginnings and do have ends"?? How does this apply to God Himself?
No problem. The basic questions I've been asking are essential to that as well.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 1:02pm On Jun 24, 2010
I've abandoned this thread for a long time now.
This is because I'm very busy with work and also busy with the development
of a tough web application and also busy with preparations for an exam.
So, alas, . . . . .I can't continue just yet.
But I'll leave this scripture for meditation(real deep meditation ) :
(19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MardiGras: 2:34pm On Jun 24, 2010
Its articles like this that made me regret why i learnt to read
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 3:21pm On Jun 24, 2010
Jenwintemi, what are you? Buddhist? Gnostic? And why are you debating the eternal hellfire thing? Mind you, I think there is a hell. I think it's real and our choices take us there. I think we have something to do with it, but I don't know what. I don't think it's eternal. It makes no sense, there's nothing that merits it, and no God worthy of the name would do such a thing to creatures that didn't ask to be created in the first place. But eternal damnation in hellfire is perfect for human beings, with our relentless evil and cruelty, to wish on others. What's the point in an argument? Don't you know the futility of arguing against religious indoctrination? And they haven't the faintest idea. They're absolutely convinced of their doctrines, for which they have no proof, and the ace in the hole: any contrary view is of the devil, meant to lead them away from the truth. It's part of Satan's end-time deceit, because, you know, the very elect will be deceived. So they have to be on guard, and protect all they've been told with all their might. They're entitled to their views. It's their life, their minds, their spite, and thankfully, nothing to do with the reality of God.
Sometimes I wonder how God sees us, human beings. We're not nice things. We're not good things. And hell is here, already. This world is a kind of hell. Here you are in it, believing in eternal damnation for others because they didn't happen to be born Christian, and smugly thinking you're en route to heaven because your vanity tells you you're special, that's why you were born into the religion that takes you there. But billions of people who have the same thoughts as you, the same feelings you have, who cry and laugh and feel pain and are irritated and have those they love and who love them, billions of those are going to eternal damnation and you think it right, you think it fitting that it be so. You people. You seriously need repentance. You seriously need a change of heart. Do you have any personal knowledge of God? All there is is years of conditioned religious response, and auto-suggestion. A certain kind of music, a certain oratory, a certain atmosphere, and you fall into religious stupor and think you've been visited by God. You yourselves are doing most of it.
And your vicious vanity! A mind that has no problem with the eternal torment of others, while believing itself destined to strum harps and fiddle with crowns of gold in heaven. You're in trouble, and have no inkling of it! You're asleep and think you're awake. Please wake up. You can. Go to God. You have no need of any man to tell to tell you a single thing in this world. Don't take anyone's word for it. Only go to God and beseech Him to tell you what's true and what's not, and ask for proof, proof, proof. Don't even pray out loud. Just desire the truth with all your heart, and carry no preconceived ideas with you. He'll tell you. He'll confirm whatever he tells you. The words of Christ in the NT will confirm it, so you'll know there's no deception. If you don't seek Him for yourself and stop relying on empty religious rituals and dogma, I can almost bet you'll be left to your ways, to your religious pride and your vanity and self-righteousness and the hatred for others you carry about in you, disguised as 'zeal for the lord'. It's what you yourselves have chosen.He's not the hateful horror human beings are, and we cannot project the worst of what's in us on Him. You cannot. But you don't even want the truth as He sees it, do you? You already know it all. Horrible things. You yourselves should spend an eternity in hellfire. Maybe your blind eyes will open then.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by babaelesin: 4:43pm On Jun 24, 2010
if you slight the Almighty God here on earth, how do you expect to live with Him in eternity?. If you continue to disobey Him here on earth and you expect to live with Him in eternity?. Hell is real and heaven is real so decide where you want to spend your eternity.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MyJoe: 5:14pm On Jun 24, 2010
Mad_Max:This one should be italicised, bolded, underlined, printed in all the languages on earth, and hung on street corners, and, and . . .
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by DeepSight(m): 5:31pm On Jun 24, 2010
Sometimes I wonder how God sees us, human beings. We're not nice things. We're not good things.
Despite all the horror that mankind has unleashed on his fellowman, i still believe very much in the essential goodness and common conscience of the human spirit.
If you assemble any group of ten people randomly picked from any part of the world and present them with actions of varying goodness or evil, the majority will consistently point out evil to be evil and good to be good.
A great deal of ill may be said about humankind: but there is still a great deal of beauty and love and kindness amongst men.
Hell, maybe i'm just a naive optimist, but i strongly believe it.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MyJoe: 5:36pm On Jun 24, 2010
^^^ You are essentially right about our inherent ability to tell good from bad. But it may not end there. Why, for instance, do "good" men turn bad during war, natural disasters and similar upheavals? Why, indeed, is there so much evil perpetrated by humans in spite of their inherently good nature? At the most basic level of looking at it, I think it's selfishness. It appears the ME factor alone is spectacularly successful in subverting the inherent good in us.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by DeepSight(m): 6:29pm On Jun 24, 2010
^^^ Yeah, really you have said it all: that is just the unfortunate reality.
I guess that's why those who are able to put aside the ME factor and make sacrifices for other people are so venerated.
Mandela, for example. But are heroes like him really so rare. Perhaps, but do spare a thought for the millions of soldiers througghout history that die fighting to defend their country men and women? Whilst it might be said for example that soldiers fighting for Nazi Germany may have been fighting a wrong or evil cause (many of them were coerced: the bodies, heads and limbs of deserters from the army were hung along roads that the armies marched on to deter would-be deserters) - the many more millions of soldiers that fought against the nazi regime did so in gallant sacrifice and truly praise-worthy human heroism.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 3:30pm On Jun 25, 2010
So right. Do we have inherent good though? Knowing right from wrong isn't the same as choosing right over wrong. Look at all we do to protect ourselves from each other. Take away all police and all armies, leave people to themselves, and you'll see just how 'inherently good' we are.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Horus(m): 11:20am On Jun 26, 2010
Hell is about Money!. The concepts of hell and a devil with a pitchfork standing in front of an open furnace, are all things put in your minds by religious leaders and the media for their own personal gain. The more you believe in their concept of hell, the more frightened you become and the more you will pay for the religious leaders to forgive your sins and redeem your souls. Everybody gains; not just religious institutions. With the concept of horror which you know is entirely based on the devil and hell, everybody gains.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 2:07pm On Jun 26, 2010
Neither, nor. Even though my worldview might make me seem like both.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 6:29pm On Jun 27, 2010
You say we are bits of God that return to God after death, and that biological death is it. That's intriguing. Could you elaborate? I've no interest in an argument or anything like that. I'd just like to understand that view.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 6:44pm On Jun 27, 2010
The bolded part above does have some support from the bible:
(7) Then shall the dust [out of which God made man's body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.
But that isn't the end of things; rather a phase that must be passed before the other phases commence(eg. judgement, etc).
But I guess Jenwitemi needs to answer you to highlight what he means.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 7:21pm On Jun 27, 2010
Mad_Max:Is this post directed at me?
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 8:19am On Jun 28, 2010
Yes, it is. Our minds are extremely powerful and suggestible things. Sometimes we find we've been labouring all our lives for a God we ourselves have created. More often than not, our Gods are handed down to us, complete with likes and dislikes and an instruction manual on how to work it. They bear a great deal of resemblance to humans, naturally, since they're the work of human hands. Who knows what the originals were like? They've gone through countless revisions down the ages. When we pray, we don't hear back. We give it the credit when things go well, and make excuses for it when things go badly. We don't have a single, personal, unambiguous encounter with these Gods. All there are, are second-hand stories and 'faith'. We throw ourselves into religious activity because, outside of that, we have nothing. And it is sometimes these unverified alter-ego Gods that go head to head when people argue religion and 'My God is better than yours'. No doubt, many know their Gods well, but life's too short for meaningless arguments.
So I was asking for your (jenwitemi's) honest, unvarnished views, no argument involved. You've made some interesting assertions. That life ends here. I think you said something about people being parts of God that are reclaimed when they die. You say the God of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian tradition, based on the OT God, is actually the devil. That's classic Gnosticism. Can you elaborate on why you believe this to be so, and what else you believe?
Thanks, ttalks. I'm guessing you're a JW.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 9:06am On Jun 28, 2010
No, I'm not a JW.
I'm just a plain ol' bible believing christian with no denominational affiliations.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 9:26am On Jun 28, 2010
That's very unusual. How come? Don't people give you grief about it, urging you to their church or temple, trying to save your soul?
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 9:51am On Jun 28, 2010
I've gone beyond caring about what some people say about my way of things as regards God.
In the past I felt some grief when people asked questions or wondered about my beliefs but that's all gone now.
I meet with some christians of like mind every opportunity I get on some sundays to fellowship.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 9:56am On Jun 28, 2010
Wow. What were you before? Most of us were raised as something till we knew better. Catholic? Protestant? Pentecostal? What changed your mind and led you to where you are now? Sorry if I'm being intrusive.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 10:11am On Jun 28, 2010
Can't really go into much detail here cos I have to dash out very soon.
But here is the summary:
- I was born into a muslim home. Was a muslim till my secondary school days.(never enjoyed it at all;except for the ram eatings )
I also secretly wished to be a christian based on what i saw from the lives of christians which were my very close friends.
- My elder brother first converted to christianity. Soon enough, I and the rest of my family followed suit.
We joined a pentecostal church in port harcourt and were there for some years.
- After my higher institution days and along the line of my working days, I started doing quite a lot of reading on christianity on the internet.
there i discovered articles from different blogs which encouraged me to start thinking for my self and doing proper bible study.
- Discovering the wrongs in the penetecostal movement, i pulled out and have been non denominational ever since and continue to build my knowledge on God and christianity.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 10:12am On Jun 28, 2010
ttalks:Will respond to your post later. Gotta run.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 10:28am On Jun 28, 2010
Lol. Ole. Really inspiring. Thanks for clarifying.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 6:46pm On Jun 28, 2010
Mad_Max:I can't agree with you more.
Mad_Max:That's right. The life drama ends for each person at the point of death. On the other side, there is only one being in existence, just one.
Mad_Max:Exactly. It is like a never-ending cycle of wave crests melting back into the ocean and rising out once again. The same can be said for man, the universes and the one God. There is only one of us here.
Mad_Max:It does not need much elaboration. This is absolutely crystal clear after one has read the OT bible. No all-loving entity would act the way the bible god does. It is an oxymoron to be both all-loving and genocidal. If the devil is the personification of evil, then the devil had to be the jewish tribal god, yahweh, because he does personify absolute evil according to the OT.
Furthermore, as far as i am concerned, the EGO is the evil itself, and there is no more egoic entity in any scriptures than the jewish deity. If you can find a more egocentric entity in any other scriptures or literatures of any kind, please point that entity out to me. This yahweh dude is the ultimate "me me me" entity. If humans follow his footsteps we will self-destruct in no time flat. Unfortunately for us, we have been following in his footsteps. I mean, look at the religions that were fashioned around him, and their blood-soaked history.
But the good news is that we humans are slowly but surely leaving that path behind simply because we are outgrowing it. THANK GOD for that.
As for what else i believe in, i believe in humanity and our ability to go beyond the ego and into the christ consciousness, which is a spiritual state of egolessness in which all humanity will see itself as one indivisible whole, without any sense of separateness.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 8:04pm On Jun 28, 2010
All right. How do you know we're outgrowing it though? Isn't this religion section a microcosm of the religious world out there, sans the oriental and eastern religious traditions? Too many liberal inter-faith friends may make one think the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion is evolving into something with some semblance of sanity, and then you meet fundamentalists and literalists and extremists. It seems if indoctrination is done too early, or to particularly suggestible minds, it stays with them for life. There is a wilful ignorance at the heart of fundamentalism in any religion, because it can't thrive without ignorance and fear and paranoia. Why are you optimistic about our outgrowing these things? I don't see the signs. And what's the Christ consciousness?
Yeah. There is a lof of blood in our religions. Somehow the eastern religions seem to have escaped relatively unscathed. It might be because they practice what they preach. Compassion and self-knowledge and truth is the essence of the teachings of most of them, and the sophistication and subtlety of their religious thoughts and insight is just stunning. Thousands of years ago they had their theories about the origins of the universe, and the nature of light and atoms. Science will spend centuries scaling hurdles in empirical knowledge, finally scale the barrier, only to find they'd been outscooped on the nature of reality for a millenia by ancient religious thinkers.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 8:32pm On Jun 28, 2010
Mad_Max:I know that we are outgrowing it because now is the time. I can't explain it quite clearly to you, but more and more people in the wider world are waking up to the reality that we are one, that we cannot afford to continue with this spirit of separateness that has caused so much havoc to humanity in the past and is still doing.
I can understand your skepticism because of the the nigerian people. But it is also happening within them, albeit a lot more slowly. More and more christians are trying to break free from the shackles of their religious doctrines. They already know intuitively that something is wrong with the doctrine itself. The same is going on with muslims as more and more are switching quietly to sufism, the spiritual version of islam. The change is happening, believe me. Nigerians are going to need a lot more time, though. The grip of indoctrination on their minds is very very strong.
Mad_Max:The state of being in which humanity finally start to realize who and what it is. That state of being in which we finally begin realize that we are all one, and not separated. This is very paramount if we are to have peace in the world and bring wars, famine, destructions and all other negativities to an end. The christ consciousness is the spiritual state of being that has gone beyond the state of ego, an egoless state, a state of perfect harmony with all that is.
Mad_Max:You're absolutely right about that, mad_max. This people are so advanced in the knowledge of the universe that scientists will forever be playing catch up to them. Western theology is an infant compared to eastern theology and philosophy.
|Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by MadMax1(f): 9:04pm On Jun 28, 2010
It's not just Nigerians, fundamentalists and extremists are everywhere. Africans tend to practice the cruder version of a religion and stick with that, but extremism is just as rampant in the US as anywhere else. I hope you're right about the changing face of religion, and aren't seeing what you want to see. I do know spirituality is on the increase worldwide, and many atheists are embracing religion. Somehow, Buddhism seems to attract the majority of them. Someone remarked recently on two atheist friends of his who became devoted Buddhists. It's a lack of options that's the problem with some atheists. Many of them are aware there's more to life than meets the laboratory. Qantum mechanics is revealing some workings of the universe, the fact that the future can't be predicted here with absolute certainty. At the sub-atomic level, a single particle can simultaneously occupy different dimensions in time and space, and time travel is possible because they can accelerate them to 99.99% of the speed of light. Physics is unwittingly answering religious questions. It's exciting.
You're so right about all humanity and all things in existence being one, and not separate. We're comprised of the same stuff, on the physcla level. All the matter in the universe was made at the Big Bang. The same atoms are being recycled. You're made of precisely the same stuff as mountains and rivers and deer and rats and virus, only the combinations differ. When we die the atoms dissolve and go on to become parts of other things. Maybe your body contains atoms that formerly constituted Cleopatra of Egypt or John the Baptist or Ghenghis Khan. Matter doesn't really die, it's simply recycled. I love that when I die my physical body will be reduced, after centuries, to its atomic basics, and reconstitute part of a tree or a corn or an egg or a stream or a growing fetus or the core of some planet. I just love the thought.
The Christ consciouness seems to be a collective consciousness, of humanity as a whole? We've been here for hundreds of thousands of years and we haven't eliminated the negatives. Especially the insanity of war and conflict, sending people to their deaths by the millions because some daft politicians can't agree. There's enough food to feed everyone on this planet but people starve to death daily. You really think we'll ever get rid of the negatives?
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