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Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by noetic16(m): 7:13pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
KunleOshob: I like that title of mr know all on a lighter note . . .why not seek the truth from God himself, since u claim to be His son? . . .that was the crux of my post. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 7:23pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
viaro:That's a tragedy. I know that your mind is already hacked and contaminated with the worst mind virus in thr business, religious doctrines of hell, but people like me will keep on trying to rid you and people like you of it, for the sake of humanity. You need to be quarantined, man. viaro:Telling you to keep positive thoughts in your mind at all times is not positive? But keeping the flames of doctrines and images of hellfire burning humanity in your mind is? Come, you know it deep down that it is not, even if you can't admit it due to the running mind virus already causing havoc in you and folks like you. Humanity will definitely need less of your kind. I am sorry if i sound harsh, but that is the truth. We need souls of light and not ones of darkness. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 7:28pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
Jenwitemi: The tragedy here is that your arguments are weltered - and you can't defend such piffling when scrutinized. This is why yours is quite a bungled mind and needs a detox. Jenwitemi: Okay, now I know you're wasting space joking around. So there's no need trying to further your tarradiddle. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 7:33pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
viaro:I am not making arguments with you, man. There is nothing to argue about at this stage. I am just telling you as it is. You, like millions of your other brethrens, have a highly polluted collective mind that is a risk to mankind. Try and quarantine yourself as it is never too late. A quarantined mind and soul will never subscribe to the teachings of hellfire. Do yourself a favor and get on with it, and stop wasting time arguing. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Nobody: 7:52pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
@ ttalks - Very simple answer. To save man from his sin. Dont know how "deeply" you "studied" the bible but you seem to have missed this - Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by nuclearboy(m): 8:02pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
Jenwitemi says what the Bible says is wrong and offers a contrary opinion that God is ALL of existence and nothing else actually exists. Sir, could you please let us know your source for that statement? And for your certainty of our pollution and contamination etc |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 8:12pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
The origin and history of hell, http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=DeistPaladin#p/search/3/P-6kUexV55w |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Jenwitemi(m): 8:15pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
nuclearboy:Come, come, my friend. This is not about what is written in the bible, but how the contents are being (mis)interpreted by each individual. And talking about what says the "word" of God, look at the video clip in that link i provided above. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by dapsycool(m): 9:09pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
Read Luke 6:27-36 [27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you. [32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Now think If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33) More to think about If Hell is real, the sin/death of Adam has had a far more powerful effect on the world than the resurrection life of Christ! And yet Paul declares in Romans 5 that Christ's victory is far greater than Adam's transgression! Listen to Paul's confidence in the work of Christ! If Paul believed in eternal hell for the majority of men, how could he write the following verses? "Just as the result of one trespass [Adam's] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [Christ's] was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [Christ] the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:18,19). "Since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" (1 Cor 15:22). Aluta continua If Hell is real, while some people receive many chances to "get saved", others have never had that opportunity--but God is not a respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34, James 3:17). So, are the billions of people who have been born and died on this earth without ever hearing the gospel or receiving Lord Jesus as their Savior doomed to eternal life in Hell? If Hell is real, does that mean that motherly love is more powerful and enduring than God's love? Do you know of normal loving parents who would desire to endlessly torment any of their children? Why do we believe our heavenly Father, who is millions of times more loving than all of us combined, could do such a thing? If Hell is real, why do we abhor the horrors of war, prison camps, torture chambers, and unspeakable atrocities, and yet, as Christians, approve of a hellish doctrine that far eclipses any earthly torment as a principle feature of the faith? How is it that we can say God is grieved by man's violence and disregard for life and yet portray Him as one who sponsors the same acts, or worse, throughout eternity? The Church has gotten used to thinking of God as Someone who designed a grotesque punishment called Hell and will send the majority of His creation there. It's as if to say, "God did the best He could". This is totally against the scriptural view of a wise and loving God who is sovereign, all-powerful, merciful, and victorious. He doesn't need a plan B or C; Jesus is the Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of the entire world! If there is a Hell and according to most denominations of Christianity the majority of mankind will go there, can I really enjoy heaven knowing family and friends who are suffering everlasting tortures the likes of which would surpass the horrors of the Holocaust death camps? |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 9:19pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
dapsycool: While you may find it convenient to quote the Bible, you are drawing unbiblical conclusions for your sentiments. There are some very specific questions for those who like to cherry-pick verses such as you do - could you please try and think through these: 1. what happens to the devil and his angels? 2. what is the ultimate end of all the ungodly, unregenerate and unrepentant? |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 9:22pm On Jun 14, 2010 |
Jenwitemi: We've been through that part of your script already and found out that you have also been (mis)interpreting what is written in the Bible. It was a very simple question put to you regarding your (mis)interpretation of the rich man and Lazarus - but as often happens when a (mis)interpretation is at play, you never come back to address those simple questions. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Enigma(m): 8:56am On Jun 15, 2010 |
nuclearboy:(Bolded by Enigma) Bros, I understand what you are saying e.g. how could say Hitler and say the apostle Peter both be "saved" (one of them, Hitler, "eventually". I have to say though that having personally thought about this ---- I believe that God is "BIG" enough to do it! Again, like Kunle, I confess that I don't know and I am not insisting this is what will happen ---- BUT from my perception of God and even from some Bible passages this is quite conceivable! Also related I think dapsycool raises some very important points in Post No 72 which are worth very serious thought. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by nuclearboy(m): 9:14am On Jun 15, 2010 |
^^^ As always, Enigma, Brilliant thoughts and if you wouldn't mind, whenever I'm in the UK, I'd love to put a face behind the "Enigma" tag (considering visiting Jos cos of Aletheia too but ehmmm, cutlasses don't agree with me ). BUT I will respond with just this - "Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?" How do you do right when you consider what Hitler did to 6 million people and cancel that by justifying him? I know you are aware of the experiments of his "doctor of death", his belief in the "master race" and his aversion to black "men who were closer to monkeys than any other species". Its laudable to think in terms of God as a loving father but the Father is NOT a slobering senile sitting up there as an all-forgiving "great grand father" who forgives all things and is told by His grand children that He's spoiling His great grand children. We know in part but there are Scriptural references and real life experience that prove God can "punish", "refine" AND "correct". Else, my mosty esteemed bro, CE etc can do whatever at liberty knowing there is no reckoning. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by nuclearboy(m): 9:22am On Jun 15, 2010 |
The book of the preacher (Eccl) tells us "Dead flies spoil the prefumer's ointment, so also is MUCH wisdom destroyed by a LITTLE folly". Adam started the problem; some perfected it. We would wish to believe the sacrifice of Jesus is so effective that the worst of the worst is justified. But they (IMO), wouldn't be considered in the same light as those seeking true redress. But then, I remain fallible and unknowing so I express not fact but just opinion. Maybe the Atheists and Satanists of this world would be first in line for justification since the prodigal son got the fattened calf though they remained unrepentant!. Get my point? |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Enigma(m): 9:27am On Jun 15, 2010 |
Ah Bros, thanks; let me know when you are headed this way. In fact, I too am headed to Naija later this year and if things work out well, I should be there (maybe on and off) for the best part of Nine months. Yep, I really really like that Genesis 18:25; shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right. This and other passages as well as general human reasoning is why I cannot at the moment argue "universalism" beyond accepting it as a possibility. I mean, what is the "judgment" then of the wicked; of Hitler, of false teachers and Bible twisters, of Pol Pot etc; I have to admit that I have yet to resolve these issues for myself. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by nuclearboy(m): 9:31am On Jun 15, 2010 |
Enigma: That Bro, is the "gist" of the matter! And the verse you quote is NOT general human reasoning so I feel it has "certainties". |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by FMK(m): 9:48am On Jun 15, 2010 |
it is hard to understand about hell existence because so far we are very surprised and wonder about life after death we do not know so far if people continue to live after death and we do not know how they live to talk about hell existence first we need to talk about life after death the parable of a rich man and Lazarius the poorman jesus taught 2010 years ago was just a Myth jesus used too many ways to make people understanding the word of God the Heaven and Hell are spiritual things not by flesh you can understand them |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Image123(m): 10:47am On Jun 15, 2010 |
People are going to suffer in hell! Depart from me into hell. The loving meek Jesus said this. Don't be deceived. God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness, He also destroyed Sodom. Revelation 19v20 is plain english 20v15 is clear enough. Revelation 14v11 says they'll be tormented day and night without rest for ever and ever. This are the words of the loving God penned down by the apostle of love himself. You don't know better. 1Corinthians 6v9,10 warns us not to be deceived into thinking otherwise. Heaven is a holy place prepared for holy people Psalm 15 |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 2:43pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
davidylan: I didn't miss it. However, have you checked that ^^ against: Rev 20:6 (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 3:04pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
viaro: No sir - Revelation that mentions the Lake of fire and second death does not show us anything about your conclusion - unless you have pointers in specific verses that say so. The second death is NOWHERE said to be a purging of wrong elements of sin - care to show us where it is otherwise taught so in Revelation? I'm back finally to respond to this. N/B: I'm at work at the moment, so my responses to posts directed at me might not be so quick. To answer this, . . . I'll have to break down my answer into quite a number of posts. First of all, I'd like to ask a question: What do you/or any body else understand by this statement by Christ below? John 6:63 (63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 3:20pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
@ttalks, Thank you for squeezing time from your busy schedule to reply mine. ttalks: That verse carries varied pointers; basically, it should convey the understanding that the words which Christ speaks have the potency to give life. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 3:42pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
viaro: Ok viaro. The verse I gave above, it is clear that the part saying "they are spirit" in relation to Christ's words is a metaphor. In fact, the whole verse itself is a metaphor when one relates words to "spirit" and "life". So, if this is agreed, it is like Christ said: "They are like spirit and life in certain ways." Because we know that words are heard and probably seen when written but they definitely are not inaudible or invisible which are characteristics of a spirit. So, Christ's usage of spirit and life in relation to words are metaphorical. But the understanding one can glean from that verse is that Christ's words are spirit or rather , spiritual. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by OLAADEGBU(m): 4:21pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
God is a righteous Judge who would do right, He is a God of Justice.
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Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 4:42pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
Now, since Christ's words are spirit/spiritual, it is only sensible for us to know that everything he says is spiritual and cannot be interpreted to be literal. Example: Rev 20:14-15 (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This is from revelations. These are Christ words since it was the revelation he gave to John. Christ's words here are definitely spiritual too. So they must have some deeper meaning to them shouldn't they; they shouldn't be taken for face value. Now, the next thing is: How do we then interprete or determine or discern spiritual things? |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 6:19pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
ttalks: How do we then interprete or determine or discern spiritual things? 2Pe 1:20(KJV) (20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:20(CLNT) (20) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture at all is becoming its own explanation. The book of revelations was Christ's revelation. It can also be termed a set of prohecies; events that have happened and those yet to happen. Now the verse given above shows that prophecy of the scripture cannot be its own explanation or interpretation(KJV makes it look like personal;as in, a person's own interpretation. Should it be public then?). G2398 ἴδιος idios id'-ee-os Of uncertain affinity; pertaining to self, that is, one's own; by implication private or separate: - X his acquaintance, when they were alone, apart, aside, due, his (own, proper, several), home, (her, our, thine, your) own (business), private (-ly), proper, severally, their (own). Since this is in relation to prophecy which is inanimate, it should read "of its own interpretation/explanation". This is saying we can't interprete portions of prophecies on their own. So, Revelations 20:14-15;which is a portion of prophecy and is spiritual since it was spoken by Christ cannot be interpreted on its own. So how then is it/are they interpreted? 1Co 2:12-13 (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. We should interprete spiritual things by comparing them with spiritual things. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 7:08pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
@ttalks, Your replies are very much appreciated. Although I have a few areas of concern: ttalks: Well, I seriously disagree. On the contrary, Christ spoke and taught in various ways - sometimes symbolically where He employed figues of speech (metaphors, similes, ironies, hyperboles, etc); other times He spoke and meant what He said in very literal terms. For example, as regarding His commandment that those who believe the Gospel should be baptized (Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16), we know that such a command cannot be 'spiritualized' to become symbolic - baptism there is literally implied, in just the way that He Himself was baptized by John the Baptist (Matt. 3:13-16). There are so many examples where Jesus intended His hearers to understand the literalness in what He said; but even where He used figures of speech, we cannot miss the fact that salvation is given to those who repent, while divine judgement is reserved for those who are unrepentant and persist in their ungodliness (Luke 13:2-5). But this is a good point you made: ttalks: . . . I shall next consider how you developed your answer to that question. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 7:16pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
ttalks: ttalks: ^^^ that's all good and well, nothing to belabour in yours. At the end, I like this summary/conclusion - ttalks: I concur - that is what Scripture urges us to do. However, as we do so, I'm asking a few questions: [list]1. what happens to the devil and his angels? 2. what is the ultimate end of all the ungodly, unregenerate and unrepentant?[/list] I leave out the 3rd question for now and concentrate on those two. After comparing spiritual things with spiritual, what can we say Scripture reveals about the ultimate end of the devil and his angels, and of the ungodly, unrepentant and unregenerate?? |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 7:30pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
viaro: Christ spoke metaphorically mainly when he spoke to the public. He mainly spoke in literal terms when he addressed the 12 and the 12 only. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by viaro: 7:39pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
ttalks: I understand what you mean - Mark 4:33-34. However, the import of what He was saying to both the multitudes and His disciples with regards to salvation and judgement are clear enough to show that the idea of a 'universal salvation' is untenable - see Mark 3:29 ('eternal damnation', KJV) and John 5:29 ('they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation', KJV). |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Mudley313: 10:12pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
Hell is from Greek hellenistic paganism and comes in handy for control, obedience, and intimidation
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Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by Image123(m): 11:25pm On Jun 15, 2010 |
ttalks I'm very disappointed, haha. |
Re: Hell Is A Christian Hoax by ttalks(m): 12:35am On Jun 16, 2010 |
viaro: You ought to be aware that the concept of "eternal" damnation is false and alien to scripture. Translations showing eternal are very very wrong. There has been a lot of disagreements on the fact that aiōnios means eternal. It does not mean eternal; rather it connotes "age-long/age-abiding", and we know that ages do have beginnings and do have ends. Eternal is very foreign to original scripture(but very conversant with most available scripture translations of today). Please go through this - - - > Whence cometh eternity? to understand what I'm saying here. I do not expect everybody to suddenely agree with the point I'm making here; i just want you to realize that this is a position that is standing and is worth looking into. |
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