tintingz:

Self existing entity is flawed and has no bases of any fact, it's built on assumptions.

Hope you know energy can't be created nor destroyed, it's self existing.

So, if one the basis of your argument self existing entity is flawed, then how do you believe in energy which according to you it's also self existing?

We've opened simple philosophical argument to you especially about your own very existence..Trace it backward, you can only arrive at two positions:

1. Infinite regression of effects till infinity.

2. The Necessary First Cause that brought about ALL effects.

AlBaqir:


So, if one the basis of your argument self existing entity is flawed, then how do you believe in energy which according to you it's also self existing?

We've opened simple philosophical argument to you especially about your own very existence..Trace it backward, you can only arrive at two positions:

1. Infinite regression of effects till infinity.

2. The Necessary First Cause that brought about ALL effects.

The guy I quoted in his context was assuming a perfect intelligent self existing entity which in theists view is a personal God or Anthropomorphic which is flawed because there are other things we can call self existing entity like energy, so how does a self existing entity create another self existing entity?

Energy according to law of conservation cannot be created nor destroyed, it's possible the universe is infinite or not, we just don't know.

Maybe tintingz can learn few things from here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evVkXKKmpsg

[code][/code]

Empiree:
Maybe tintingz can learn few things from here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evVkXKKmpsg

I've watched the video and I didn't bother watching it to the end.

He pulled a strawman and fallacious argument when he said atheists believe we exist as result of randomness, he's sentimental and bias through out his argument. I can easily counter his argument.

1. Atheist are mostly agnostic about what caused the universe to exist, we don't fully understand the universe, it's absurd to think a perfect "intelligent design" created this universe, the galaxies are as result of collapsing and colliding, evolution is as result of changing, mutation and natural selection, this contradict the 6 days creation in the Quran which Allah created everything magically and not with slow and accidental process. This is self-contradictory(paradox) to God being perfect and ominipotent.

2. He's only arguing about how the universe can't be as result of randomness, can he states how the universe will be without a perfect God? He didn't prove Allah exist with evidence, he's only arguing from the Quran that said Allah exist, what kind of logic is that? Allah exist because the Quran said Allah exist?.

3. He's arguing from ignorance (argumentum ad ignoratiam) and using "God of the gaps", we don't understand the universe or things around us therefore"God did it", this is fallacious and irrational, what if we later understand how the universe came to be? What if Aliens actually created the universe, what if the universe is infinite and everything came as a result of randomness, accidents, what then will be your God? And mind you there are various Gods in every Religions and cultures, why does he think non of them are not the creator but Allah is, Because the Quran said so?

4. With God things are still meaningless, reasons because God is said to be mysterious, we can't understand God, he do/does things as he will, he created a perfect place paradise which makes life on Earth meaningless, he created evil for no reason, every Religion believes in thier version of afterlife and idea of God, worshiping God five times daily is meaningless, everything, material things you do on Earth is meaningless since you're doing it for an imaginary garden and when you receive the reward it will also be meaningless since there's no purpose in paradise, no challenges, nothing, just eternal boring enjoyment. Theists are just wallowing in thier delusions.

5. I've no reason to believe any God exist talkless of anthropomorphic God, there is no sufficient evidence to prove God exist therefore I lack the belief God exist, believing in God is meaningless, I don't need to believe in God to have a meaningful and purposeful life, the world is not perfect to believe a perfect God exist, but I'm open to "possiblity" of first causes.

Chaiii!!! What a pity!!!

ISLAM VS ATHEISM (MAY 2019, OXFORD)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n-zYRZy5NQ

AlBaqir:
ISLAM VS ATHEISM (MAY 2019, OXFORD)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n-zYRZy5NQ

I will watch this.

AlBaqir:
ISLAM VS ATHEISM (MAY 2019, OXFORD)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n-zYRZy5NQ

Ok, just finished watching this, it's quit interesting but not that intellectual. I've watched many debates, this doesn't come close.

And oh that's Alex O'Connor, I've watched his videos on YouTube and I must say he's more intelligent for that his age. Look at him taking up those two Muslim men looking like Jidenna , the old dude was just looking like he was watching Liverpool vs Barcelona game, I think he's wondering and doesn't get how this Muslim guys talk with certainty that their world view and morality is absolute and they don't see how absurd they sound, someone even asked similar question from the audience.

Albaqir, I think I must ask some questions which I gain from this video and I think some has been addressed in this thread already, the questions are,

- Why do you think Allah is self-sufficient from this universe? Any logical reason?

- If the universe came into existence as a result of necessity, does the cause of this necessity has to be God? If yes, what evidence do you have to justify this claim?

- If everything must have a cause, why do you think Allah should be exempted from "everything", what logical argument do you have for that? And why do you think Allah must be the first cause and nothing before him?

- If infinite regress is a fallacy, does Allah being infinite a fallacy too?

- What do you say about morality, is it objective or subjective or both and why do you think your God morality is the absolute morality? And also, do you think without God there can't be morality?

- If you believe the universe "need" God to sustain it, can you describe how a universe without God would be?

tintingz:


Ok, just finished watching this, it's quit interesting but not that intellectual. I've watched many debates, this doesn't come close.

And oh that's Alex O'Connor, I've watched his videos on YouTube and I must say he's more intelligent for that his age. Look at him taking up those two Muslim men looking like Jidenna , the old dude was just looking like he was watching Liverpool vs Barcelona game, I think he's wondering and doesn't get how this Muslim guys talk with certainty that their world view and morality is absolute and they don't see how absurd they sound, someone even asked similar question from the audience.

Albaqir, I think I must ask some questions which I gain from this video and I think some has been addressed in this thread already, the questions are,

- Why do you think Allah is self-sufficient from this universe? Any logical reason?

- If the universe came into existence as a result of necessity, does the cause of this necessity has to be God? If yes, what evidence do you have to justify this claim?

- If everything must have a cause, why do you think Allah should be exempted from "everything", what logical argument do you have for that? And why do you think Allah must be the first cause and nothing before him?

- If infinite regress is a fallacy, does Allah being infinite a fallacy too?

- What do you say about morality, is it objective or subjective or both and why do you think your God morality is the absolute morality? And also, do you think without God there can't be morality?

- If you believe the universe "need" God to sustain it, can you describe how a universe without God would be?

All your questions have been perfectly answered in the video. Unfortunately it seemed you weren't watching to learn but as usual criticize and take side.

You can rewatch perhaps you will get your answers this time.

Peace.

AlBaqir:


All your questions have been perfectly answered in the video. Unfortunately it seemed you weren't watching to learn but as usual criticize and take side.

You can rewatch perhaps you will get your answers this time.

Peace.

I read his first paragraph and I knew he's full of himself. I wasn't disappointed.

He will never be contented

AlBaqir:


All your questions have been perfectly answered in the video. Unfortunately it seemed you weren't watching to learn but as usual criticize and take side.

You can rewatch perhaps you will get your answers this time.

Peace.

No, they were not perfectly answered or I won't be asking those questions and secondly they didn't give Alex(the atheist) much time to even respond to their arguments. The moderation of that debate is poor. I've watched many debates that are far better than this.

- How is Allah self-sufficient when he interferes/intervene in the universe? Where do you put the deist God? (I would like to hear their or your response to that)

- Their morality argument can easily be refuted, they have asked how's their morality objective when there are various religions and cultures with their moralities, lol the other Muslim guy was just strawmaning that atheist dont have morals so they have no say in morality. How is this a "perfect" answer? Is that even a counter argument?

- They(Muslim debaters) accepted they don't claim to fully understand the universe, how tha hell are they now certain about God's attributes and existence? Atheist never claim we came from nothing, most atheists are agnostic and accept "they don't know", Alex(atheist) said "we have never experienced "nothing" so we shouldn't base argument on that.
And it seems they don't even know what "nothing" is in quantum physics, I think Alex tries to educate them on that but he wasn't given much time. Maybe you should explain how Allah created from nothing and came from nothing.

I can go on and on with this counter argument, I took my time to listen to their responses, they were not satisfying and are flawed, I've to criticize it, it's part of leaning, you don't expect me to learn nonsense!
This debate is like rewatching same argument I've watched from other debates but this one here is poor.

Empiree:
I read his first paragraph and I knew he's full of himself. I wasn't disappointed.

He will never be contented

Why must i?

Have you ever contented to anything I've presented in this forum? Just tell me one thing you agree with me in this forum.

I think this claim is hypocritical and bias.

tintingz:
No, they were not perfectly answered or I won't be asking those questions and secondly they didn't give Alex(the atheist) much time to even respond to their arguments. The moderation of that debate is poor. I've watched many debates that are far better than this.

- How is Allah self-sufficient when he interferes/intervene in the universe? Where do you put the deist God? (I would like to hear their or your response to that)

- Their morality argument can easily be refuted, they have asked how's their morality objective when there are various religions and cultures with their moralities, lol the other Muslim guy was just strawmaning that atheist dont have morals so they have no say in morality. How is this a "perfect" answer? Is that even a counter argument?

- They(Muslim debaters) accepted they don't claim to fully understand the universe, how tha hell are they now certain about God's attributes and existence? Atheist never claim we came from nothing, most atheists are agnostic and accept "they don't know", Alex(atheist) said "we have never experienced "nothing" so we shouldn't base argument on that.
And it seems they don't even know what "nothing" is in quantum physics, I think Alex tries to educate them on that but he wasn't given much time. Maybe you should explain how Allah created from nothing and came from nothing.

I can go on and on with this counter argument, I took my time to listen to their responses, they were not satisfying and are flawed, I've to criticize it, it's part of leaning, you don't expect me to learn nonsense!
This debate is like rewatching same argument I've watched from other debates but this one here is poor.

If there's one thing the rookie Alex did right before he arrogantly and shamelessly (like you) retracted his initial acceptance, was when he accepted that there must be a "necessary existence" to cause the confidence existence. When you admit that, you don't need to bring a pathetic point as he did when he said, "but it doesn't really matter that it is your God".


Here I'm not interested in going via a cyclic arguments with you. Continue fighting your soul/self perhaps your arrogance that still block your senses might be removed.

AlBaqir:



If there's one thing the rookie Alex did right before he arrogantly and shamelessly (like you) retracted his initial acceptance, was when he accepted that there must be a "necessary existence" to cause the confidence existence. When you admit that, you don't need to bring a pathetic point as he did when he said, "but it doesn't really matter that it is your God".

There is a fallacy called post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy when you conclude on a casuality but you can't prove it connection, you didn't take other possibilities of the events.

Ofcos we need to ask, why is it your God or why must it be your God? Are there no other possibilities? I gave examples like the ET(aliens) in this thread and other possibilities that's unknown, Alex even gave counter example using determinism, I wonder if you even understand the absurdity.

And we need to ask same question for God, who caused his necessity to exist? And please don't say he's infinite or self-existence, that's another assumption and fallacy.

Here I'm not interested in going via a cyclic arguments with you. Continue fighting your soul/self perhaps your arrogance that still block your senses might be removed.

Lol, you don't even understand how logic works in arguments, go tell your Muslim brothers in that debate to learn more. They should read from theist like Dr. Jordan Peterson and his likes. The "rookie" atheist in that video took up those two Jidennas, he must be way intelligent than them.

Islam or Atheism - Debate with Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & the president of American Atheists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpquNiEScek

AlBaqir:
Islam or Atheism - Debate with Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & the president of American Atheists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpquNiEScek

I'm so gonna watch this.

Hamza Tzortzis(Muslim) is intelligent, let me watch his argument.

AlBaqir:
Islam or Atheism - Debate with Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & the president of American Atheists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpquNiEScek

Oops I'm disappointed at Hamza after watching his argument, he's being dishonest especially on morality and the first cause argument.

- He claim morality is absolute but he is finding it hard to accept each religion and cultures has it own morality and morality changes from time to time, if this is the case, how then is morality absolute objective?
(Religious people are actually not moral from the inside, they are moral because a book told them to be moral and how to be moral and the problem with this is a Muslim killing a homosexual can actually believe he's doing good and moral because Allah commanded it).

- If infinite regress is meaningless, impossible and fallacy how come he came into conclusion there's a first cause and this first cause is uncaused and infinite, his argument got more absurd by concluding it must be Allah, I mean does he actually have evidence to his claims or he just assume this or he read it from a book? Why can't he just accept non of this is known like the agnostics?
(The universe can be infinite and uncaused, just like the argument for God, this can also be applied to the universe, claiming a first cause must be personal make it more absurd because a personal God must bound to something, the reason deist don't believe God is personal).

Timeline... timeline... timeline

tintingz:
[code][/code]
He pulled a strawman and fallacious argument.

tintingz:


it's quite interesting but not that intellectual. I've watched many debates, this doesn't come close.

tintingz:
The moderation of that debate is poor. I've watched many debates that are far better than this.

Yet, he doesn't believe

tintingz:


I'm so gonna watch this.

Hamza Tzortzis(Muslim) is intelligent, let me watch his argument.

Let's see after he watched it

tintingz:


Oops I'm disappointed at Hamza after watching his argument,

AlBaqir:




Here I'm not interested in going via a cyclic arguments with you. Continue fighting your soul/self perhaps your arrogance that still block your senses might be removed.

Lobatan

Empiree:
Timeline... timeline... timeline





Yet, he doesn't believe




Let's see after he watched it






Lobatan

The guy's brain is so predictable. I thought na only me dey laugh no jare when our wannabe atheist said Hamza Tzortzis is brilliant. I said to myself, "fake news, he will change gear after the show"

Empiree, kindly find time to watch the video and see how brilliant Hamza completely destroyed the then so-called Atheist president. The video no get part 2

Empiree:
Timeline... timeline... timeline

Yet, he doesn't believe

I'm not convinced.

Let's see after he watched it



Lobatan

Lol, unfortunately for you debates has always been a cyclic arguments, "the debates on God existence" has always been argued for centuries and centuries. Albaqir keep posting videos of debates on God which has been argued here.

Why he keeps posting debate videos I don't know, but when you comments on the video, "it's a cyclic arguments", this is red herring and an excuse and escape route not to be trapped in his own delusion.

So I still don't understand why you and Albaqir don't see the hypocrisy and bias in yourselves. Maybe Albaqir should tell us why he keeps posting videos when most(if not all) in the videos has already been argued here.

I've asked you before a question which you shy away from and I will ask again, can you mention one thing you agree and contented with me in this forum?

AlBaqir:



The guy's brain is so predictable. I thought na only me dey laugh no jare when our wannabe atheist said Hamza Tzortzis is brilliant. I said to myself, "fake news, he will change gear after the show"

Empiree, kindly find time to watch the video and see how brilliant Hamza completely destroyed the then so-called Atheist president. The video no get part 2

Hamza is intelligent in his approach and has a Muslim but he doesn't see his flaws in his argument, watched one of his debate before where Lawrence Kruss educate him on quantum physics.

I just posted his dishonesty in his argument, there is nothing he destroyed in this debates, he's just speaking with confidence here maybe because the show was organized by Muslims.

I think I will be creating a thread on morality and arguments on first cause being God, infinite and personal.

There should be a fresh thread for this and I would like Albaqir to be in that thread for discussion and arguments. It's ok if he ignores the thread.

tintingz:
I think I will be creating a thread on morality and arguments on first cause being God, infinite and personal.

There should be a fresh thread for this and I would like Albaqir to be in that thread for discussion and arguments. It's ok if he ignores the thread.

With who? You? I guess you are feeling lonely again and needed more attention.

AlBaqir:


With who? You? [s]I guess you are feeling lonely again and needed more attention.[/s]

Ad hominem fallacy.

The last time I checked you were the one posting videos. Please explain to us why you're posting videos to a dead thread of yours?

If you're sure of your beliefs concerning morality especially, take up the subject I propose.

tintingz:


Ok, just finished watching this, it's quit interesting but not that intellectual. I've watched many debates, this doesn't come close

Did Muhammad Hijab and co. discuss scientific miracles of the Qur'an?

usermane:


Did Muhammad Hijab and co. discuss scientific miracles of the Qur'an?

They only mention it but didn't delve into it.

The argument is more about the first cause and morality.

tintingz:
They only mention it but didn't delve into it.

The argument is more about the first cause and morality.

Then it should've been Theism V Atheism.

Anyway, I ask because I know no debate on Islam and Atheism or Christianity is complete without invoking the "scientific miracles"

usermane:


Then it should've been Theism V Atheism.

Anyway, I ask because I know no debate on Islam and Atheism or Christianity is complete without invoking the "scientific miracles"

I usually don't like getting involved in atheists-Muslim or atheist-christian debate but as soon as I see 'scientific miracles' I chuckled. I hope it won't get to that ridiculous level. I am on the standby 'watching' you guy's debate. Tintknz, Empire and AlBaqir you guys are trying.

usermane:


Then it should've been Theism V Atheism.

Anyway, I ask because I know no debate on Islam and Atheism or Christianity is complete without invoking the "scientific miracles"

Actually they mentioned Quran verses to support the first cause argument.

The problem with their argument is, they have not proof the existence of Allah but jump into conclusion Allah is the first cause that cause the universe into existence. This kind of argument is a post hoc fallacy. and God of the gaps fallacy. They believe everything must have a deterministic causes but then stop at a cause calling it the first cause/uncaused cause, this argument is a paradox and a fallacy.

One can't argue "everything must have a cause" then stop at Allah and claim he doesn't have a cause, then one must agree "not everything has a cause". If infinite regress or infinite universe is impossible, then an infinite higher being is impossible.

They can't have their cake and eat it too.

true2god:
I usually don't like getting involved in atheists-Muslim or atheist-christian debate but as soon as I see 'scientific miracles' I chuckled. I hope it won't get to that ridiculous level. I am on the standby 'watching' you guy's debate. Tintknz, Empire and AlBaqir you guys are trying.

tintingz:

The problem with their argument is, they have not proof the existence of Allah but jump into conclusion Allah is the first cause that cause the universe into existence.

You can argue all day and disragard obvious evidences of God's existence.

You get to know Allaah exist when you are shrouded and you can not move. Yet your consciousness stays with you at the time you are prepared for burial. If this doesn't scare the heck out of you, just wait.

See, when your body is shrouded like this, if you have sense you realize that you don't own yourself. You get to realize there is One who created you in the first place. And then you are placed in that eternal hole in the ground and you will be there forever and ever till Qiyama. If this doesn't scare you just wait.