There have been plenty of attacks on Christianity over the years, but few claims have been more surprising than one advanced by an obscure Swedish scholar this spring.

The Gospels do not say Jesus was crucified, Gunnar Samuelsson says.

In fact, he argues, in the original Greek, the ancient texts reveal only that Jesus carried "some kind of torture or execution device" to a hill where "he was suspended" and died, says Samuelsson, who is an evangelical pastor as well as a New Testament scholar.

"When we say crucifixion, we think about Mel Gibson's 'Passion.' We think about a church, nails, the crown of thorns," he says, referring to Gibson's 2004 film, "The Passion of the Christ."

"We are loaded with pictures of this well-defined punishment called crucifixion - and that is the problem," he says.

Samuelsson bases his claim on studying 900 years' worth of ancient texts in the original languages - Hebrew, Latin and Greek, which is the language of the New Testament.

He spent three years reading for 12 hours a day, he says, and he noticed that the critical word normally translated as "crucify" doesn't necessarily mean that.

"He was handed over to be 'stauroun,'" Samuelsson says of Jesus, lapsing into Biblical Greek to make his point.

At the time the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were writing their Gospels, that word simply meant "suspended," the theologian argues.

"This word is used in a much wider sense than 'crucifixion,'" he says. "It refers to hanging, to suspending vines in a vineyard," or to any type of suspension.

"He was required to carry his 'stauros' to Calvary, and they 'stauroun' him. That is all. He carried some kind of torture or execution device to Calvary and he was suspended and he died," Samuelsson says.

Not everyone is convinced by his research. Garry Wills, the author of "What Jesus Meant," "What Paul Meant," and "What the Gospels Meant," dismisses it as "silliness."

"The verb is stauresthai from stauros, cross," Wills said.

Samuelsson wants to be very clear about what he is saying and what he is not saying.

Most importantly, he says, he is not claiming Jesus was not crucified - only that the Gospels do not say he was.

"I am a pastor, a conservative evangelical pastor, a Christian," he is at pains to point out. "I do believe that Jesus died the way we thought he died. He died on the cross."

But, he insists, it is tradition that tells Christians that, not the first four books of the New Testament.

"I tried to read the text as it is, to read the word of God as it stands in our texts," he says - what he calls "reading on the lines, not reading between the lines."

Samuelsson says he didn't set out to undermine one of the most basic tenets of Christianity.

He was working on a dissertation at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden when he noticed a problem with a major book about the history of crucifixion before Jesus.

What was normally thought to be the first description of a crucifixion - by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus - wasn't a crucifixion at all, but the suspension of a corpse, Samuelsson found by reading the original Greek.

The next example in the book about crucifixion wasn't a crucifixion either, but the impaling of a hand.

Samuelsson's doctoral advisor thought his student might be on to something.

"He recommended I scan all the texts, from Homer up to the first century - 900 years of crucifixion texts," Samuelsson recalled, calling it "a huge amount of work."

But, he says, "I love ancient texts. They just consume me." So he started reading.

He found very little evidence of crucifixion as a method of execution, though he did find corpses being suspended, people being hanged from trees, and more gruesome methods of execution such as impaling people by the belly or rectum.

The same Greek word was used to refer to all the different practices, he found.

That's what led him to doubt that the Gospels specify that Jesus was crucified.

At the time they were written, "there is no word in Greek, Latin, Aramaic or Hebrew that means crucifixion in the sense that we think of it," he says.

It's only after the death of Jesus - and because of the death of Jesus - that the Greek word "stauroun" comes specifically to mean executing a person on the cross, he argues.

He admits, of course, that the most likely reason early Christians though Jesus was crucified is that, in fact, he was.

But he says his research still has significant implications for historians, linguists and the Christian faithful.

For starters, "if my observations are correct, every book on the history of Jesus will need to be rewritten," as will the standard dictionaries of Biblical Greek, he says.

More profoundly, his research "ought to make Christians a bit more humble," he says.

"We fight against each other," he reflects, but "the theological stances that keep churches apart are founded on things that we find between the lines.

"We have put a lot of things in the Bible that weren't there in the beginning that keep us apart. We need to get down on our knees as Christians together and read the Bible."

i cant say i believe this guy but i know that there r some greek words that were misconstrued when they were translated into english

^^^ even the fact you believe that there are some words which the greeks translated wrongly and or translated from to english wrongly tells you that you must leave christianity.
Thank Allah that I am not a christian, because i would have long abandoned the so called religion.

why would you remain in a thing that is not 100% pure? how many things are wrong if you can find just one wrong by your casual look into it?

nopuqeater:

^^^ even the fact you believe that there are some words which the greeks translated wrongly and or translated from to english wrongly tells you that you must leave christianity.
Thank Allah that I am not a christian, because i would have long abandoned the so called religion.

why would you remain in a thing that is not 100% pure? how many things are wrong if you can find just one wrong by your casual look into it?

C U CASTIGATING ANODA RELIGION N U CALL URSLF A TRUE MUSLIM, SHAME ON YOU.SHIOOOOOOOO.

@Kehmeah: Shio to your head. Castigating? How? The man speaks the truth. I supported him using his statement to validate my argument. Shio on you, again. It I have said the same to Onisongo, you wouldnt be saying shio, but happy that I said it. Is Songo not another man's religion? Your christianity is seen in the same light in my eye.

I hope Kahmeah can proof the man wrong that the Bible says jesus was truly crucified. Not what Paul said. But a medical proof to support your argument, Kahmeah. If not shio on your head, once more. lol.

Neither is it said that christ died on a cross.

nopuqeater:

I hope Kahmeah can proof the man wrong that the Bible says jesus was truly crucified. Not what Paul said. But a medical proof to support your argument, Kahmeah. If not shio on your head, once more. lol.

u'r just as stupid as it comes,learn to read pple's posts very well,i neva mentioned that the guy was wrong + it really doesnt make any difference if u dissed onisango.bottomline is dont mock other pple's beliefs

Kehmeah says he cant say he believes this guy, but then turn around and say he neva said the guy is wrong. kehmeah, are two statements the same?

1). i cant say i believe this guy but i know that there r some greek words that were misconstrued when they were translated into english

2). u'r just as silly as it comes,learn to read pple's posts very well,i neva mentioned that the guy was wrong + it really doesnt make any difference if u dissed onisango.bottomline is dont mock other pple's beliefs

@Kehmeah: the two bolded, are they the same?

You are talking from two sides of your mouth by the two. #1 says you do not believe the guy. #2 says you never said the guy was wrong. whats not believe if it is not wrong?

then the man should tell us how he died , see some guys wanted world recognition by faking the world that more than billions of people have made research on , he should say to the muslims

nopuqeater:

Kehmeah says he cant say he believes this guy, but then turn around and say he neva said the guy is wrong. kehmeah, are two statements the same?

1). i cant say i believe this guy but i know that there r some greek words that were misconstrued when they were translated into english

2). u'r just as silly as it comes,learn to read pple's posts very well,i neva mentioned that the guy was wrong + it really doesnt make any difference if u dissed onisango.bottomline is dont mock other pple's beliefs

@Kehmeah: the two bolded, are they the same?

You are talking from two sides of your mouth by the two. #1 says you do not believe the guy. #2 says you never said the guy was wrong. whats not believe if it is not wrong?

ur understanding of the english language needs some brushing up,saying 'i cant say i believe this guy' is the same thing as saying i doubt him and if i say i doubt something,does that mean i'm saying its wrong or odawise??

this is really sick, and to the muslims? wat is pure about your religion? fighting and killing of innocent souls? u preach peace while you are pointing a knife to your brother's face, to the xtains, the bases of our faith is christ crucified, died, buried and rose again!!! alleluyah

from Genesis: he shall bruise your heals and you shall bruise his head (CRUCIFIED)
Exodus: he will be hung on a tree just like the snake in the wilderness during d time of moses that anyman who looks on to him will be Saved
Isaiah: he was bruised for our inquity the charstisement of peace is upon him and by his stripes we are healed!!
Revelation: Behold the lamb of God!!!!

brothers and sisiters forget history,forget scholars and findings, JESUS IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!!!!

APOSTLE PAUL SAYS: THE GOSPEL WE PREACH IS CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!!

GOD BLESS YOU BRETHREN!

@vinmol:
I offer with total respect that, while your words are most eloquent, they contradict themselves.

How are we to know what is correct and true if, indeed, we forget history (which is one of the things that the Bible is--a history book about the coming of, life of and death of Jesus, and "time" itself). If we forget scholars, we do no justice to those who translated the books of the Bible into the tongues that can be understood by the people of the world. And, if we forget about findings, then should we forget about seeking, as well? For what purpose does seeking serve other than finding?

Your faith is clearly strong, and because of that you are blessed. But, for those whose faith does not have the support of your own, please don't discourage any means to fortifying a quest to knowledge and truth.

@Kehmeah: « #10 on: July 07, 2010, 01:00 PM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on July 07, 2010, 12:57 AM
Kehmeah says he cant say he believes this guy, but then turn around and say he neva said the guy is wrong. kehmeah, are two statements the same?

1). i cant say i believe this guy but i know that there r some greek words that were misconstrued when they were translated into english

2). u'r just as silly as it comes,learn to read pple's posts very well,i neva mentioned that the guy was wrong + it really doesnt make any difference if u dissed onisango.bottomline is dont mock other pple's beliefs

@Kehmeah: the two bolded, are they the same?

You are talking from two sides of your mouth by the two. #1 says you do not believe the guy. #2 says you never said the guy was wrong. whats not believe if it is not wrong?

your understanding of the english language needs some brushing up,saying 'i cant say i believe this guy' is the same thing as saying i doubt him and if i say i doubt something,does that mean i'm saying its wrong or odawise??

Are still in school, kehmeal or you are holding down a job? Either way, go to the person whose anger can break your carrier, and when he is dead serious, say to him "i cant say i believe you' or "i doubt you". Wait for his reaction and see if he will love you or your goose is cooked, and if you survive with your head still attached to your neck, notice if you are not in the dog house from that point on till you finally get out of under his authority.

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vinmol
Posts: 47

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Re: Bible Doesn't Say Jesus Was Crucified, Scholar Claims
« #11 on: July 09, 2010, 05:39 PM »

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this is really sick, and to the muslims? wat is pure about your religion? fighting and killing of innocent souls? u preach peace while you are pointing a knife to your brother's face, to the xtains, the bases of our faith is christ crucified, died, buried and rose again!!! alleluyah

from Genesis: he shall bruise your heals and you shall bruise his head (CRUCIFIED)
Exodus: he will be hung on a tree just like the snake in the wilderness during d time of moses that anyman who looks on to him will be Saved
Isaiah: he was bruised for our inquity the charstisement of peace is upon him and by his stripes we are healed!!
Revelation: Behold the lamb of God!!!!

brothers and sisiters forget history,forget scholars and findings, JESUS IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!!!!

APOSTLE PAUL SAYS: THE GOSPEL WE PREACH IS CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!!

GOD BLESS YOU BRETHREN!

« #10 on: July 07, 2010, 01:00 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: nopuqeater on July 07, 2010, 12:57 AM
Kehmeah says he cant say he believes this guy, but then turn around and say he neva said the guy is wrong. kehmeah, are two statements the same?

1). i cant say i believe this guy but i know that there r some greek words that were misconstrued when they were translated into english

2). u'r just as silly as it comes,learn to read pple's posts very well,i neva mentioned that the guy was wrong + it really doesnt make any difference if u dissed onisango.bottomline is dont mock other pple's beliefs

@Kehmeah: the two bolded, are they the same?

You are talking from two sides of your mouth by the two. #1 says you do not believe the guy. #2 says you never said the guy was wrong. whats not believe if it is not wrong?

your understanding of the english language needs some brushing up,saying 'i cant say i believe this guy' is the same thing as saying i doubt him and if i say i doubt something,does that mean i'm saying its wrong or odawise??

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@vinmol; « #11 on: July 09, 2010, 05:39 PM »

this is really sick, and to the muslims? wat is pure about your religion? fighting and killing of innocent souls? u preach peace while you are pointing a knife to your brother's face, to the xtains, the bases of our faith is christ crucified, died, buried and rose again!!! alleluyah

from Genesis: he shall bruise your heals and you shall bruise his head (CRUCIFIED)

And this is Jesus, except that you people add "crucified", because of your wishful thinking? How about Moses who suffered what Jesus could not have endured? How about the Innocent John son of Zakariyah who didnt do anything but got his head chopped off for a mere dance?

Exodus: he will be hung on a tree just like the snake in the wilderness during d time of moses that anyman who looks on to him will be Saved

When was the snake hung during the time of Moses? Is the hanging a hallmark of godliness or a curse on the soul that such a hung person will never receive mercy?

Isaiah: he was bruised for our inquity the charstisement of peace is upon him and by his stripes we are healed!!

By which authority have you concluded this? If a single christian goes to hell, after believing this, then it is a false belief. The way the Jews were, if this was true, when they saw him hung by their eadership, all of them woud have accepted the premise, all of them including the executioners. This proofs that it is not what you take it to be, since every one wants the easiest way to Paradise or engage with God for mercy.

Revelation: Behold the lamb of God!!!!

Conjecture. Where is the proof, when God does not even want the real animal lamb, He will now have to have human as His lamb?

brothers and sisiters forget history,forget scholars and findings, JESUS IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!!!!

APOSTLE PAUL SAYS: THE GOSPEL WE PREACH IS CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!!

This Paul's Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel that Jesus preaced. Right? Who is the leader, Jesus or Paul? Where can I find a Gospel of Jesus where he preached crucifixion, instead of what Paul puts forward? That will be a better point of discussion, a more lively means of argument.

nopuqeater:

@vinmol; « #11 on: July 09, 2010, 05:39 PM » And this is Jesus, except that you people add "crucified", because of your wishful thinking? How about Moses who suffered what Jesus could not have endured? How about the Innocent John son of Zakariyah who didnt do anything but got his head chopped off for a mere dance?

What did Moses suffered that Christ didn’t? Who crucified Moses? Don’t just jump into questionable conclusions, the researcher could not provide a single evidence where it was disputed that Christ was crucified. See what he said:

ActiveMan:

It's only after the death of Jesus - and because of the death of Jesus - that the Greek word "stauroun" comes specifically to mean executing a person on the cross, he argues.

He admits, of course, that the most likely reason early Christians though Jesus was crucified is that, in fact, he was.

But he says his research still has significant implications for historians, linguists and the Christian faithful.

And who can compare John to Christ when he (John) himself testified that he was not fit to unbuckle Jesus’ sandals.

nopuqeater:


When was the snake hung during the time of Moses? Is the hanging a hallmark of godliness or a curse on the soul that such a hung person will never receive mercy?

So you don’t know when Moses impaled a snake on a stake? When God punished the Jews by sending the snakes and whoever lifted his eyes to the impaled snake was cured? Such is the essence of Christ’s death to us- Whoever looks unto the cross is free indeed!

nopuqeater:


By which authority have you concluded this? If a single christian goes to hell, after believing this, then it is a false belief. The way the Jews were, if this was true, when they saw him hung by their eadership, all of them woud have accepted the premise, all of them including the executioners. This proofs that it is not what you take it to be, since every one wants the easiest way to Paradise or engage with God for mercy.

Do you think it is everybody that wants to go to heaven? Satan has blinded many people, including muslims from the way of life. You can compare your query to how come allah, which was one of the 360 idols in kaaba, worshipped by the kuraish tribe in Makkah, suddenly become a supreme deity.

nopuqeater:


This Paul's Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel that Jesus preaced. Right? Who is the leader, Jesus or Paul? Where can I find a Gospel of Jesus where he preached crucifixion, instead of what Paul puts forward? That will be a better point of discussion, a more lively means of argument.

I taught you were a good student of history. Didn’t Christ mentioned that He was going to be crucified? You mean it was paul that first propounded the theory? Grow up kid, the Bible flows, not like the koran where mohammed was mistaking Mariam, Moses’ sister for Mary, the mother of Jesus.

nopuqeater you make me laugh.

Christ is only a prophet in Islam because he appeared in the pages of the Christian Bible. Islam then takes this fictional character and says "Oh they got it wrong. He didn't really do that".

It's like me picking up a copy of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Saying that it's a true story and then rewriting it to say that they never fell in love. Then going round and telling everyone that my version is the correct one.

Utterly ridiculous!!


As for the topic. Forget wether or not Christ was real. What is at hand here is wether or not the Bible depicts a crucifixion. It does. The writing, the symbolism and the evidence from the other religions that Christianity copied from, mean that crucifixion was the method of execution depicted.
One huge giveaway is the description of not breaking Christ's legs. It would not have been mentioned unless he was crucified.